The state of VR - Lost it's steam?

Hagrid

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or ask, at what price would you buy this for...

I'm sure at $400 for quest it's still too pricey for most people. Maybe with more good content that'll change. Just consider how far that tech has improved over just a few years though. We're miniaturizing things at a pretty quick pace. In a couple years the Quest 2 or whatever may be $300 and look better than the current one, and with 4x more content. Maybe that happens and more people buy VR. Maybe it doesn't... why discourage it though?
That is one of the points as well. If everybody could afford it and a good pc, how many people would have it.
 

Dayaks

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At the end of your amazing session you should have asked how many of them would ACTUALLY buy it for themselves, versus just using it at a party, like I said is a likely future for VR.



You should have asked how many of them would ACTUALLY buy it for themselves, versus just using it at a party, like I said is a likely future for VR
I didn’t have to ask since I am the tech friend. About 20% of them did. I set it up for them.

That’s one problem with the non-console systems. You have to be somewhat competent or know someone who is.

With mention of 20' x 20', you are talking about room scale, which is 1:1, which isn't known to cause motion sickness. It's violating that, which does.

You still seem to be (willfully?)ignoring this point. Read the links in previous post.

It's all types of motion based gaming, driving, flying, FPS where you don't just stay in one place (or room) but explore the world, where you need motion that doesn't match your body in real space. Which is in fact most types of games.

This is where you get comments from game reviewers like "physically incapacitated our would-be reviewers", or "Puke-tastic".

Pretending this is a non issue, when there is endless evidence that it is, doesn't strengthen your case.
I am grabbing project cars for xmas with a wheel so my daughter can learn to driver better ... not in my vehicle. I’ll get back to you in three months. I could imagine how it could be a problem.

Generally I use VR for room scale 1:1 games, sometimes with instant teleportation. For anything else I usually use a normal monitor.
 

Aireoth

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VR needs a next gen headset (not the Pro refresh) then they need to drop the price of the OG headsets to the $200 range to create a market and entry points.

Lighter, less cables, and simpler setup are also important.

Lastly need more titles.

Now will any of that happen? Who knows, everytime VR was tried in the past the manufacturing companies abandoned the systems rather than doubling down and trying to make a market. That is what need to happen, Vive, Oculus, and the smaller systems need to double down and bring out another headset and creating price points of entry ranging from cheap to top of the line expensive.

Honestly, the PSVR might be the saving grace of VR, it is at this time.
 

Hagrid

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VR needs a next gen headset (not the Pro refresh) then they need to drop the price of the OG headsets to the $200 range to create a market and entry points.

Lighter, less cables, and simpler setup are also important.

Lastly need more titles.

Now will any of that happen? Who knows, everytime VR was tried in the past the manufacturing companies abandoned the systems rather than doubling down and trying to make a market. That is what need to happen, Vive, Oculus, and the smaller systems need to double down and bring out another headset and creating price points of entry ranging from cheap to top of the line expensive.

Honestly, the PSVR might be the saving grace of VR, it is at this time.
Next gen headset would be easy. but it has to stay within the power of GPU's.
Light would be nice, the cables do not bother me since mine are strung up. Can go prone in Onward with no problem.
Yeah, it would be nice to have more levels of HMD's. The new ones I believe are 1070 and above. It would be nice to have a 1080ti/2080 and above. If they can make all games SLI/CFX then that would rock or have the games use dual GPU's, one for each eye.
 

Aireoth

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Next gen headset would be easy. but it has to stay within the power of GPU's.
Light would be nice, the cables do not bother me since mine are strung up. Can go prone in Onward with no problem.
Yeah, it would be nice to have more levels of HMD's. The new ones I believe are 1070 and above. It would be nice to have a 1080ti/2080 and above. If they can make all games SLI/CFX then that would rock or have the games use dual GPU's, one for each eye.
Dual GPU is too niche and the horse power doesn't matter that much as you can turn game settings down to get FPS.

The way I see VR, resolution is more important than textures or graphical do-dats, it prevents the screen door effect and helps sharpen up all the images and text. GPU tech is always advancing and VR tech is much slower (if it isn't dead already) so having a future proofed HMD at the high end isn't the worst situation/idea.
 

Hagrid

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Dual GPU is too niche and the horse power doesn't matter that much as you can turn game settings down to get FPS.

The way I see VR, resolution is more important than textures or graphical do-dats, it prevents the screen door effect and helps sharpen up all the images and text. GPU tech is always advancing and VR tech is much slower (if it isn't dead already) so having a future proofed HMD at the high end isn't the worst situation/idea.
For VR, GPU HP is everything. Like trying to run 4K at 144hz and maintaining 144 fps at minimum. We could have awesome HMD's right now, but the GPU power is severely lacking.
That is why the Pimax 8K X was not working out so well. Each eye was 4K and trying to maintain high FPS was a no go.
 

Aireoth

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For VR, GPU HP is everything. Like trying to run 4K at 144hz and maintaining 144 fps at minimum. We could have awesome HMD's right now, but the GPU power is severely lacking.
That is why the Pimax 8K X was not working out so well. Each eye was 4K and trying to maintain high FPS was a no go.
The Pimax is a very niche product and 8k isn't even close to ready.

I understand that GPU HP is 'everything' but if you decide to be bound by that as a HMD maker I think you've made a horrible mistake, about as bad as making an 8k headset ($$$$$$$$$).

The sweet spot would be around a total of 4k between the two eyes (HP is making one thats 2160 per eye). Forget about the GPU power and let the software scale the video options to allow play-ability. There will inevitably be a GPU refresh before a HMD refresh so the GPU will catch up.

This allows the market to create a product stack al'la Vive OG, Vive Pro, and Vive 4k. So someone like me who values resolution over other graphic options can run a higher system.

If the Pimax ever launches and its price isn't on par with 8k TV's I might buy one.

Edit: In looking through Google there is another emerging problem in market segmentation, brand awareness, and compatibility. Though I'll admit I don't know how well systems like the Oddessy work with Vive and Oculus games, but in my personal experience compatibility between stores, software and products is always a problem.
 

Dayaks

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For VR, GPU HP is everything. Like trying to run 4K at 144hz and maintaining 144 fps at minimum. We could have awesome HMD's right now, but the GPU power is severely lacking.
That is why the Pimax 8K X was not working out so well. Each eye was 4K and trying to maintain high FPS was a no go.
The Pimax is a very niche product and 8k isn't even close to ready.

I understand that GPU HP is 'everything' but if you decide to be bound by that as a HMD maker I think you've made a horrible mistake, about as bad as making an 8k headset ($$$$$$$$$).

The sweet spot would be around a total of 4k between the two eyes (HP is making one thats 2160 per eye). Forget about the GPU power and let the software scale the video options to allow play-ability. There will inevitably be a GPU refresh before a HMD refresh so the GPU will catch up.

This allows the market to create a product stack al'la Vive OG, Vive Pro, and Vive 4k. So someone like me who values resolution over other graphic options can run a higher system.

If the Pimax ever launches and its price isn't on par with 8k TV's I might buy one.

Edit: In looking through Google there is another emerging problem in market segmentation, brand awareness, and compatibility. Though I'll admit I don't know how well systems like the Oddessy work with Vive and Oculus games, but in my personal experience compatibility between stores, software and products is always a problem.
There's also nothing wrong with upscaling to 4k per an eye, ect. If the screens make sense. Right now my "home" & Beat Saber for my Vive Pro is 4492x4992 per each eye, but for space pirate trainer it's only 2296x2552 (6MP total where 4k is 8MP). Even upscaling from 1080P to 4k is probably way better.... since SDE would be basically nil.

You can easily set the Vive from 20% to 500% resolution per application.
 

Dayaks

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You mean the only systems where the mainstream press still bothered to look at these issues. They didn't go away, it's just that the news cycle has move away from VR reporting.

Mismatch from 1:1 is a unsolvable issue for most people. It won't be fixed by technology. It's based on how humans senses are wired. If your senses report significant mismatch, most people get motion sick.
So got Project Cars. Tried it for about a minute. I feel like ralphing all over my living room. Thanks Snowdog.

Some people love this for Airplane Sims/Driving, beyond me how they manage it. I'll stick to room scale 1:1 as you put it.
 

Youn

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don't forget foveated rendering with eye-tracking, which may be the nexty big thing... you only really need like 5 degrees of full resolution, everything else can render at x0.25 or lower
 

Aireoth

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don't forget foveated rendering with eye-tracking, which may be the nexty big thing... you only really need like 5 degrees of full resolution, everything else can render at x0.25 or lower
Latency will be increasingly a problem.
 

Youn

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https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4dsXzM

crazy... I thought there was a good article out there, showing latency and other things can be decreased outside of the fovea, perhaps more estimated with lower frames and reprojection, so additional savings could be found there... and even as you move your eye around there could be a little extra latency where the image isn't perfectly resolved... I could be wrong
 

Aireoth

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https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4dsXzM

crazy... I thought there was a good article out there, showing latency and other things can be decreased outside of the fovea, so additional savings could be found there... and even as you move your eye around there could be a little extra latency where the image isn't perfectly resolved... I could be wrong
Any system adds latency just by physics alone and VR is very susceptible to latency.

I agree that a combo of these technologies are required for a perfect experience, but it might not be physically possible.
 

Hakaba

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So got Project Cars. Tried it for about a minute. I feel like ralphing all over my living room. Thanks Snowdog.

Some people love this for Airplane Sims/Driving, beyond me how they manage it. I'll stick to room scale 1:1 as you put it.
Initially, I had the same issue when playing games like Dirt, I had to play in small increments. After a week or so I could play longer and longer, but the lack of sensory feedback really threw me for a loop initially.
 

funkydmunky

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So got Project Cars. Tried it for about a minute. I feel like ralphing all over my living room. Thanks Snowdog.
Some people love this for Airplane Sims/Driving, beyond me how they manage it. I'll stick to room scale 1:1 as you put it.
PC2 is a very demanding game. When I first got it I would start to overheat and sweat massively, and would get a touch of nausea. This was all due to me wanting all the "eye-candy" maxed. Even though I have a well OC'ed 2080 (non-ti) I wasn't anywhere near the required solid 90+fps needed. I got the cheap app fpsVR so I could monitor on the fly my actual fps, dropped some settings and issue gone. PC2 has taken me hours to get tweaked out (same for IL-2) but so worth it.
Graphically intensive VR games require a lot more finesse than flat screen games. If you notice some lag or stutter in a flat screen you just quickly drop some settings no biggie. In VR it can look amazing with no obvious stutter and make you sick. Every VR user should have fpsVR or a similar tool. It even shows you what your bottle neck is CPU/GPU.
 

Dayaks

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PC2 is a very demanding game. When I first got it I would start to overheat and sweat massively, and would get a touch of nausea. This was all due to me wanting all the "eye-candy" maxed. Even though I have a well OC'ed 2080 (non-ti) I wasn't anywhere near the required solid 90+fps needed. I got the cheap app fpsVR so I could monitor on the fly my actual fps, dropped some settings and issue gone. PC2 has taken me hours to get tweaked out (same for IL-2) but so worth it.
Graphically intensive VR games require a lot more finesse than flat screen games. If you notice some lag or stutter in a flat screen you just quickly drop some settings no biggie. In VR it can look amazing with no obvious stutter and make you sick. Every VR user should have fpsVR or a similar tool. It even shows you what your bottle neck is CPU/GPU.
I’ll have to grab that.
 

reaper12

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A lot of rubbish been posted by a two people. You can easily spot posters who don't have a clue when they start comparing VR to 3D.

So got Project Cars. Tried it for about a minute. I feel like ralphing all over my living room. Thanks Snowdog.

Some people love this for Airplane Sims/Driving, beyond me how they manage it. I'll stick to room scale 1:1 as you put it.
The reason you got sick in Project cars is because it's default settings are good when using a monitor but suck when you use VR. The reason been is that racing cars games have the view locked to the movement of the car. If you are suspectible to motion sickness, then this will cause you serious nausea. There is a setting in Project cars to change the view so it's locked to the Horizon, this is way better for VR. There are a few other settings you can change, but, the locked horizon view is the biggie.
 

fuzzylogik

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i dont think it will truly be accepted as "mainstream" untill you can just ditch the monitor and "plug into" the VR set for everything.......and that will happen in about, oh ya, never.
That stuff already exists - called the Hololens. 2nd Gen is getting ready to come out as well - oh, and you don't have to plug into anything except for charging. And you can walk around your house. or outside. Not quite to the point where you can play full on AAA games etc. but it is a full computer...
 

noko

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VR market is growing, it has some unique stuff that enough folks will want so I don't see it going away anytime soon. Once in VR for the most part is really nice, getting there at times can be very frustrating. Plus anything that makes you feel bad, I don't care what will over time make most folks avoid it. Play a game that is VR friendly and you go back, play one bad game that makes you puke, and another - you might not come back ever. Plus the wanting more factor comes into play as in this looks really cool, go over to pick something up and it does not move, the whole environment becomes a very limited none real place. For me it has been fun, not so fun, slightly sickening at times, to blah and then back again wondering why I put it down in the first place then to repeat. Anyways a good size play area seems to be key and my Vive Pro room is not big enough. The Odesey + room is bigger but the cord is too short. Quest is fantastic for mobility and ease except very limited for outside conditions where you could have that 40' by 40' experience (what ever it is, it is huge).
 

Youn

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It's growing no doubt, and no surprise seeing Quest take a lead here... but damn, didn't expect it to be by such an extent (I just wish Go would Go Away, we don't need crappy 3-dof VR spoiling the market)

Untitled-2.png
 
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It's growing no doubt, and no surprise seeing Quest take a lead here... but damn, didn't expect it to be by such an extent (I just wish Go would Go Away, we don't need crappy 3-dof VR spoiling the market)

View attachment 186713
And that doesn’t include any of the Valve Index HMDs that have been sold, which I’d assume are at least another ~200k units by now...
 
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KarsusTG

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VR has never really been a thing. It takes too much hardware horsepower to be available to the non enthusiast masses and is not even usable by the 33% of the population that gets motion sickness.

This will always be really niche until we get over these hurdles.
 
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VR has never really been a thing. It takes too much hardware horsepower to be available to the non enthusiast masses and is not even usable by the 33% of the population that gets motion sickness.

This will always be really niche until we get over these hurdles.
You must be really new to VR...

Ever hear of the Oculus Quest?
 

Youn

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but quest can't compete with my triple SLI, and nobody wants peasant graphics... just look at mobile gaming
 

Aireoth

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It's growing no doubt, and no surprise seeing Quest take a lead here... but damn, didn't expect it to be by such an extent (I just wish Go would Go Away, we don't need crappy 3-dof VR spoiling the market)

View attachment 186713
I'm impressed, but I can't like it. F facebook and all their things.

Pity the Vive doesn't have more penetration, I guess that's brand recognition for you.
 
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I'm impressed, but I can't like it. F facebook and all their things.

Pity the Vive doesn't have more penetration, I guess that's brand recognition for you.
There's this other company that's sort of taken on and released their own HMD, breaking away from the Vive... perhaps you've heard of them before? They go by the name "Valve".
 
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I think you might missed the point.
You were lamenting Vive's lack of market penetration due to Facebook's superior brand recognition...

Just pointing out that Valve has a bit of brand recognition as well... pretty much every PC gamer alive is familiar with Steam. The numbers just don't include them yet.

Valve also has a much better product than the original Vive... up until HTC releases the Cosmos, which is very soon and sort of catches up in the tech specs dept... so, yet another VR option to add to the mix:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...ve-the-price-release-date-and-first-hands-on/
 

Aireoth

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You were lamenting Vive's lack of market penetration due to Facebook's superior brand recognition...

Just pointing out that Valve has a bit of brand recognition as well... pretty much every PC gamer alive is familiar with Steam. The numbers just don't include them yet.

Valve also has a much better product than the original Vive... up until HTC releases the Cosmos, which is very soon and sort of catches up in the tech specs dept... so, yet another VR option to add to the mix:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...ve-the-price-release-date-and-first-hands-on/
HTC was essentially steam, if your theory held any weight... (I know they split, but marketing was joint for a long time)

The brand recognition is Oculus, from the Kickstarter on they where/are the big name for VR.
 

RazorWind

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but quest can't compete with my triple SLI, and nobody wants peasant graphics... just look at mobile gaming
What VR games are you playing that can actually use a triple SLI setup, though? None of the ones I have support it at all.
 
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Hagrid

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are there any good games you can play with vr?
Check out some of the posts that we have made listing some of our favorites. They are awesome and brings a whole different meaning to playing a game.
The immersion is night and day difference from a 2D screen.
 

bobzdar

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This is truly hilarious - people in a tiny niche corner of the internet complaining about a product being niche. What do you think the hardware in everyone's signature on this forum is? It's all niche.

I have 4 VR headsets (kept my old dk1 and have one my kids broke that I'llfix for them at some point), and apparently they're selling well enough for new and improved models to be constantly released. Plus, you can tell there are a bunch in here that have outdated info - like external sensors being required etc. Only a corner of the vr market even uses those anymore, oculus doesn't, wmr doesn't and if valve is smart, they'll ditch them (or fall by the wayside). Hell, the quest doesn't need any wires at all, let alone external sensors, except to charge it. Think the future is just skappping the headset on and having it work with no wires, sensors or even a pc being necessary? Well that future is already here and at a fraction of the cost of a new iPhone that also has a bunch of niche useless crap tacked onto it.
 

Snowdog

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This is truly hilarious - people in a tiny niche corner of the internet complaining about a product being niche. What do you think the hardware in everyone's signature on this forum is? It's all niche.
Not really. People aren't complaining that it's niche. A few of are disagreeing with those who think it's going mainstream.

Or the even more silly, but often repeated: "VR is the future".

The problem is those partaking a niche activity, that think everyone is going to join them.
 
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Hagrid

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This is truly hilarious - people in a tiny niche corner of the internet complaining about a product being niche. What do you think the hardware in everyone's signature on this forum is? It's all niche.

I have 4 VR headsets (kept my old dk1 and have one my kids broke that I'llfix for them at some point), and apparently they're selling well enough for new and improved models to be constantly released. Plus, you can tell there are a bunch in here that have outdated info - like external sensors being required etc. Only a corner of the vr market even uses those anymore, oculus doesn't, wmr doesn't and if valve is smart, they'll ditch them (or fall by the wayside). Hell, the quest doesn't need any wires at all, let alone external sensors, except to charge it. Think the future is just skappping the headset on and having it work with no wires, sensors or even a pc being necessary? Well that future is already here and at a fraction of the cost of a new iPhone that also has a bunch of niche useless crap tacked onto it.
Wrong on the needing external sensors. From all i have read, they track better than the other methods. The lighthouses being better than the Rifts.
If it isn't in sight of the camera, you get drift. External sensors can pretty much see it all. Wires are a non problem as they can be attached overhead. I can go prone in Onward and pop up with no problem. Even a little camera drift sucks. Until they can get it with more sensors, no thanks.
 

bobzdar

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Wrong on the needing external sensors. From all i have read, they track better than the other methods. The lighthouses being better than the Rifts.
If it isn't in sight of the camera, you get drift. External sensors can pretty much see it all. Wires are a non problem as they can be attached overhead. I can go prone in Onward and pop up with no problem. Even a little camera drift sucks. Until they can get it with more sensors, no thanks.
Well, I don't need to read, I have them. If you have a well lit room the tracking just isn't an issue. I think the external tracking is slightly better, but not worth the hassle. That's why companies are abandoning it. Certainly don't need it for a good experience. Only time I get drift is if I forget to turn the lights on.
 

Hagrid

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Well, I don't need to read, I have them. If you have a well lit room the tracking just isn't an issue. I think the external tracking is slightly better, but not worth the hassle. That's why companies are abandoning it. Certainly don't need it for a good experience. Only time I get drift is if I forget to turn the lights on.
Weird, my rift sensors work with or without light. Slightly better, but at which games. I am leaning towards a Index. Just for the better quality optics and such.
 

Dayaks

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What VR games are you playing that can actually use a triple SLI setup, though? None of the ones I have support it at all.
I took his post as sarcasm.

I don’t think VR will be “mainstream”, which I might describe as >50% of households, anytime soon.

What I was saying is it definitely has healthy volumes and revenues. It is by no means dying off.
 

RPGWiZaRD

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I see the need for larger open space is also a major issue, I certainly haven't got a good spot in my house without destroying my place in the process too xD
 
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