The state of VR - Lost it's steam?

Youn

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well I think we can all agree it's only really popular in the geeky/tech crowd, and occasional show-and-tell with the grandparents who are still mastering the non-drag double mouse click :D

still a ways to go for sure too, no doubt... but have you tried some recent headsets and games?

VR channels on youtube are getting more popular. Like this one relatively small one that gained a lot of momentum in 2019
https://socialblade.com/youtube/channel/UCsmk8NDVMct75j_Bfb9Ah7w/monthly
 

Dayaks

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But PC version sales are marginal at best.
290k a quarter is way more than I would have guessed. So PC should be in the millions of units sold.

Some people act like it’s 1k/quarter.

I have 4 people that play ours regularly, I think there’s more chance of that - multiple people, one device.
 

fuzzylogik

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I don't hate VR. I do think it's easily one of the most overrated and over-hyped technologies in quite some time.

If there is actual content in the future, and less bulky and more comfortable equipment it will change the game.

But right now? It's a toy, apparently for people like you, that are really interested in it, and that's really where it ends. Far from mainstream, far from "popular".
..So.. let me get this straight: VR is a toy that nobody really cares about and won't be good until there's actual content for it and more comfortable to use. How does that work? Tech just suddenly and immediately just does it all right without generational growth and advancement? Without the stuff out now (which several million people have already - and so this year sales are up some 25-30% from last year?) there would be no advancement, no content etc. Obviously there's something to VR since folks are purchasing it and using it (and the fact that it's growing) - the more that use it the better and cheaper it's going to get... (and I don't even have it - I actually spent more time with the mixed reality MS Hololens development kit over any of the gaming headsets - and that is an all-in-one with very very obvious drawbacks/limitations (CPU/GPU power, limited FoV) but with very very obvious... awesomeness. The possibilities with this stuff (and especially since the 2nd Gen Hololens is coming out) is rather exciting. But, well... that's just my opinion.

But sure, it'll be a bit longer before VR is "mainstream" but that's... rather subjective - Is 18 million units sold "mainstream"? What about if that number is compared to 241 million units sold? is the 241 units sold "mainstream" and the 18 million units not? What if the 18 million units was actually a 2% decline from the previous year? just checking :)
 

B770

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i dont think it will truly be accepted as "mainstream" untill you can just ditch the monitor and "plug into" the VR set for everything.......and that will happen in about, oh ya, never.
 

dany man

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i dont think it will truly be accepted as "mainstream" untill you can just ditch the monitor and "plug into" the VR set for everything.......and that will happen in about, oh ya, never.
I could be wrong but don't they make VR sets that are more or less a housing for a cell phone?
 

B770

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yes they do, and those units are counted into the VR stats for units sold. they are a joke, i got a set free with one of my phones, it was kind of cool for about 2 days. now its siting in a landfill somewhere. if they counted the "real" VR units sold and not those wanna-be units the numbers would look a lot more abysmal.
 

dany man

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yes they do, and those units are counted into the VR stats for units sold. they are a joke, i got a set free with one of my phones, it was kind of cool for about 2 days. now its siting in a landfill somewhere. if they counted the "real" VR units sold and not those wanna-be units the numbers would look a lot more abysmal.
What was so bad about it? seems like a better idea then the video glasses.
 

Domingo

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I feel like the cell-phone ones are the only ones that are practical for regular use. Setting up the PS4 or Vive take forever and require too specific of an environment.
I have the PS4 one and almost dread actually using it. You also borderline need someone else around to hand you things and make sure you aren't drifting into something.

VR is pretty amazing when it works well, it's just too much of a hassle to make that breakthrough from niche to mainstream. I'm hoping Sony's PS5 might change some of that. A smaller wireless headset would go a long way.
 

Hagrid

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i dont think it will truly be accepted as "mainstream" untill you can just ditch the monitor and "plug into" the VR set for everything.......and that will happen in about, oh ya, never.
Reminds me of the unintelligent people in history who said the same thing on tech we have these days. Weird eh.
 

B770

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na, i am sure part of the problem is low quality software, but trying to play a zombie killing game with not quite ready for mainstream synchronicity issues does little more than give somebody a huge headache after a few mins. cellphones use a left eye/ right eye screensplit system, looks great on paper, but in practice its actually very hard to get it right. too many compromises have to be made for it to work on the limited assets of a smartphone. which is why you need a larger headset with much processing power for the true VR sets to work properly, or a corded/wifi to a desktop unit. just seems like VR is nothing more than a replacement for the monitor. i just dont see everyone running out to pick up a VR headset that cant do everything a monitor can do. if the industry can survive another 20 years or so maybe the tech will allow what they want it to be right now, but there is a long way to go.
 

dany man

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I feel like the cell-phone ones are the only ones that are practical for regular use. .
That is my thought. Sure they might be as well as other setups, but for the main stream it would seem like a better idea. But I never used one before.
 

Hagrid

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na, i am sure part of the problem is low quality software, but trying to play a zombie killing game with not quite ready for mainstream synchronicity issues does little more than give somebody a huge headache after a few mins. cellphones use a left eye/ right eye screensplit system, looks great on paper, but in practice its actually very hard to get it right. too many compromises have to be made for it to work on the limited assets of a smartphone. which is why you need a larger headset with much processing power for the true VR sets to work properly, or a corded/wifi to a desktop unit. just seems like VR is nothing more than a replacement for the monitor. i just dont see everyone running out to pick up a VR headset that cant do everything a monitor can do. if the industry can survive another 20 years or so maybe the tech will allow what they want it to be right now, but there is a long way to go.
The biggest factor is immersion. A 2D screen gives you none of that. There are quite a few very amazing games like Onward, Arizona Sunshine, Vanishing Realms. Roller coaster rides are pretty cool as well. It just doesn't put you in front of a flat screen, it puts you in the middle of it all. I hope they can get something working with SLI/CFX so that they could make better HMD's for those that have the power.
 

Dayaks

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The biggest factor is immersion. A 2D screen gives you none of that. There are quite a few very amazing games like Onward, Arizona Sunshine, Vanishing Realms. Roller coaster rides are pretty cool as well. It just doesn't put you in front of a flat screen, it puts you in the middle of it all. I hope they can get something working with SLI/CFX so that they could make better HMD's for those that have the power.
I have zero issue with the quality of the Vive Pro which I think the Odessy has the same screens. I’d always like better, but the quality is adequate that it doesn’t ruin immersion like the original Vive did for me.

I agree about mGPU but support only seems to go down.
 

OFaceSIG

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Its obvious Hagrid is that level 1 fanboi that will never accept folks calling VR what is it. A niche product. In the future it vary well could become a theme park type attraction where people go to specific places to experience it. Or there are VR trucks that come to people's parties for this. But I don't see it ever being common where people just have headsets, and sensors, and motion cameras in their living rooms for this.
 

Snowdog

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The biggest factor is immersion. A 2D screen gives you none of that. There are quite a few very amazing games like Onward, Arizona Sunshine, Vanishing Realms. Roller coaster rides are pretty cool as well. It just doesn't put you in front of a flat screen, it puts you in the middle of it all. I hope they can get something working with SLI/CFX so that they could make better HMD's for those that have the power.
That same immersion is also one of the biggest killers for VR. It also puts most people into motion sickness. That is a deal breaker right there for them.

Then there is the hot, sweaty, uncomfortable visor.

Then there is the total isolation factor.

The further into the issues, the smaller the niche shrinks. And even those who buy in, there are some who stick with it, and others were it gathers dust on a shelf.

You filter through all the issues to get the diehards who stick with it, and they keep proclaim this is the future of how everyone will do all their computing. Which is complete nonsense. It will always be a niche.
 

Hagrid

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Its obvious Hagrid is that level 1 fanboi that will never accept folks calling VR what is it. A niche product. In the future it vary well could become a theme park type attraction where people go to specific places to experience it. Or there are VR trucks that come to people's parties for this. But I don't see it ever being common where people just have headsets, and sensors, and motion cameras in their living rooms for this.
No, you saying it will never take off is what I oppose. People with small brains and no common sense are the ones in history that told people it will never happen. Sometimes it did. Guessing is not the same as a educated guess. Just my 2 cents. ;)
 

Youn

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let the debbie-downers be. they may not even be able to enjoy sex, poor things
 
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VR will never be commonplace in the home.
Riggghht... Just like TVs and telephones.. and computers too! And this new fangled electricity thing with the wires all over the place, hah! That will never catch on.

You're either drunk or confused... Get in your buggy, slap the reins and go home.
 

Snowdog

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Riggghht... Just like TVs and telephones.. and computers too! And this new fangled electricity thing with the wires all over the place, hah! That will never catch on.

You're either drunk or confused... Get in your buggy, slap the reins and go home.
TV's and Telephones didn't give people motion sickness, or require the discomfort of a sweaty hotbox on your head.
 

OFaceSIG

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TV's and Telephones didn't give people motion sickness, or require the discomfort of a sweaty hotbox on your head.
They don't get it bro... I have so many coworkers and associates in fields that have nothing to do with IT. Unless you're REALLY into this, you just don't care.

The average person doesn't give two shits about VR. Only the fanbois do.

Hell most people don't even have desktop PCs in their homes anymore! Not to mention one with enough graphical horsepower to drive high end VR.

Whatevs, they don't get it.
 

Youn

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it's so big and bulky, a hassle to use, too expensive, hurts my arm to carry around, my other arm getting tired from lack of blood flow, neck and shoulder hurts from bending them over to hold in place, ears bleed after 24x hours continuous use... oh and I look like a FREAK nerd, nobody is gonna wanna talk to me.... this tech is going NOWHERE I TELL YOU>>> YOU ARE ALL WRONG FOR BEING OPTIMISTIC!!!

1988+cell+phone.jpg
 

Snowdog

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it's so big and bulky, a hassle to use, too expensive, hurts my arm to carry around, my other arm getting tired from lack of blood flow, neck and shoulder hurts from bending them over to hold in place, ears bleed after 24x hours continuous use... oh and I look like a FREAK nerd, nobody is gonna wanna talk to me.... this tech is going NOWHERE I TELL YOU>>> YOU ARE ALL WRONG FOR BEING OPTIMISTIC!!!

View attachment 186019
Look at one of the big reasons 3D TV was said to have failed. People didn't want to wear stupid glasses. 3D glasses were lighter and less obtrusive than VR HMD will ever be.

And you can't fix motion sickness, that is simple from the mismatch between headset motion and and real world position = puke fest for most people.

Fans of tiny niche activity, think it's for everyone, because they like it. "Hey, I like skydiving, so everyone in the future will be skydiving."
 
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Look at one of the big reasons 3D TV was said to have failed. People didn't want to wear stupid glasses. 3D glasses were lighter and less obtrusive than VR HMD will ever be.

And you can't fix motion sickness, that is simple from the mismatch between headset motion and and real world position = puke fest for most people.

Fans of tiny niche activity, think it's for everyone, because they like it. "Hey, I like skydiving, so everyone in the future will be skydiving."
I understand that you don't like VR. Fine, that's your opinion. Doesn't change mine. You've got a different opinion based on your reality, which seems very, very different from mine. I can respect that.

But go blow your airhole somewhere else then to sit there and tell me about how VR isn't for others and is niche and will fail and makes you sick and looks stupid.

I can respect that you have your own opinion and that you feel strongly about it, but I see no reason that I have to share it. On my rig, VR is amazing and I'm loving it. I own/use three different VR HMDs. No, I don't get motion sick from it. No, I don't think it will die. No, I don't think it will stop evolving. It's here and plenty mainstream for me. And it's only going to get better as the tech continues to grow and become more capable.
 

Youn

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...and they made 3DTV without glasses and guess what happened?

that comparison to skydiving is also funny... you think most humans wouldn't love to fly freely if they could do so safely? hmm.... I wonder how we could simulate that for anyone to enjoy while they sit on the crapper? :p
 

Youn

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Fans of tiny niche activity, think it's for everyone, because they like it.
Maybe I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't think anyone is trying to make this argument. Perhaps this is the entirety of the confusion here... just some of us are more open-minded than others about VR surviving, niche or not. Simple as that...
 

funkydmunky

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Look at one of the big reasons 3D TV was said to have failed. People didn't want to wear stupid glasses. 3D glasses were lighter and less obtrusive than VR HMD will ever be.

And you can't fix motion sickness, that is simple from the mismatch between headset motion and and real world position = puke fest for most people.

Fans of tiny niche activity, think it's for everyone, because they like it. "Hey, I like skydiving, so everyone in the future will be skydiving."
I brought my system to a BBQ party. Had maybe 20-30 people try it. They were lined up. Loved it, and no one puked. It was hard to pull a user off so everyone could try.
I don't buy games that aren't VR, unless they are strategy games or multi-player party games, where classic 2D is the only option.
 

Dayaks

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Look at one of the big reasons 3D TV was said to have failed. People didn't want to wear stupid glasses. 3D glasses were lighter and less obtrusive than VR HMD will ever be.

And you can't fix motion sickness, that is simple from the mismatch between headset motion and and real world position = puke fest for most people.

Fans of tiny niche activity, think it's for everyone, because they like it. "Hey, I like skydiving, so everyone in the future will be skydiving."
I’ve only seen it give motion sickness if you let it go into reprojection (< 90FPS).

They still sell hundreds of thousands of high end headsets a quarter. I am not worried about it. I think comparing it to 3D is a bit off.
 

Snowdog

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I’ve only seen it give motion sickness if you let it go into reprojection (< 90FPS).

They still sell hundreds of thousands of high end headsets a quarter. I am not worried about it. I think comparing it to 3D is a bit off.
No, it causes motion sickness if you break the one to one movement between virtual body and physical body. That limits it to games where you are essentially stationary.

Try to use it in a standard game where you move around exploring, and they have to try and use teleporting and flipping into different angles to keep the nausea down for most people.

Ex:

The PlayStation VR games that made us sick

"Some people may experience motion sickness, nausea, disorientation, blurred vision or other discomfort while viewing virtual reality content." So reads the cautionary message that pops up every time you jump into a PlayStation VR game, and it's not just an idle warning: PS VR can potentially throw your body's equilibrium into alarming disarray. Problem is, everybody's tolerance level is different, and it's hard to know what'll make you feel queasy until you're actually struck by those uncomfortable sensations of stomach lurching, light-headedness, or cold sweats.

Driveclub VR - "It made everyone feel sick"
The above video says it all: we couldn't review Driveclub VR because it physically incapacitated our would-be reviewers. You'd think that driving a car in first-person VR would come naturally, considering it's such a common activity, but something about speeding down the twists and turns of these digital racetracks is enough to make you lose your lunch (especially if you're in a convertible or F1 car). Even with all the options for adjusting your view, Driveclub VR is borderline unplayable for the majority of our staff - which is odd, considering how the demo didn't have anywhere near the same sickness-inducing effect.

VR experiences rated from most nauseating to least

High motion sickness
EVE: Valkyrie - You're a pilot in a fighter jet so there's a lot of spinning and inversion happening. The bad guys also zip by you really fast meaning you have to chase them quickly by whatever means you can. We were only able to play 15 minutes then had a massive headache afterwards.

InCell - Puke-tastic. You have to spin, move forward and do it pretty fast which makes for a seriously nauseous time.
Windlands - Jumping mechanics are slow but it's a big no from your brain. Take the game's warnings seriously.

Adr1ft - Spinning around in space will make you feel like an astronaut but you'll also feel like you're training to be one too since you'll likely get motion sick.

Project Cars - VR driving games causing motion sickness is pretty funny but yes, it happens. For the most part, Project Cars is in between high and moderate because for some, the simulation was too fast to turn your head in time with the car while others felt only somewhat queasy afterwards.

Radial-G - Similar to Project Cars, but worse since you're ridiculously fast upside down and all over the place. It's basically the worst roller coaster ever for your brain.
I'd like to know the last product that "physically incapacitated our would-be reviewers" that went mainstream.
 
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Dayaks

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No, it causes motion sickness if you break the one to one movement between virtual body and physical body. That limits it to games where you are essentially stationary.

Try to use it in a standard game where you move around exploring, and they have to try and use teleporting and flipping into different angles to keep the nausea down for most people.
I've had 20+ people use it with room scale with no issues... I've never seen the instant teleport bother anyone. My kids play for hours in the winter.
 

Snowdog

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I've had 20+ people use it with room scale with no issues... I've never seen the instant teleport bother anyone. My kids play for hours in the winter.
I never said teleport was the issue. I said it was the "solution" they had to use to avoid in game motion that makes people sick in VR.
 

Dayaks

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I never said teleport was the issue. I said it was the "solution" they had to use to avoid in game motion that makes people sick in VR.
Motion is fine too as long as the FPS stays above 90. We sometimes play in a 20' x 20' space. I will get sick in about 20 seconds if the frames is below 90 which hasnt' happened in over a year.

So one thing I noticed about your links is I doubt Playstation VR is doing proper frames for all games all the time.

Project Cars can be hard to run as well, or I should say easy to mess up (>90FPS all the time). To be fair, I've never tried a driving game. So I cannot say with confidence it's the driving itself or the low fps, but if I was a betting man I'd go with low fps.

So there's millions of high end headsets out there - will it be in a decent amount of homes anytime soon? The only hope for that is next gen consoles executing it correctly. As long as it's in the millions of units a year I don't think we have to worry about VR going anywhere... which is what I care about. I don't care if only 10% of homes have it as long as it's enough to keep the ecosystem going.

The funny thing is I can't tell when the FPS goes below 90... but my subconscious sure can lol.
 

Snowdog

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Motion is fine too as long as the FPS stays above 90. We sometimes play in a 20' x 20' space. I will get sick in about 20 seconds if the frames is below 90 which hasnt' happened in over a year.
With mention of 20' x 20', you are talking about room scale, which is 1:1, which isn't known to cause motion sickness. It's violating that, which does.

You still seem to be (willfully?)ignoring this point. Read the links in previous post.

It's all types of motion based gaming, driving, flying, FPS where you don't just stay in one place (or room) but explore the world, where you need motion that doesn't match your body in real space. Which is in fact most types of games.

This is where you get comments from game reviewers like "physically incapacitated our would-be reviewers", or "Puke-tastic".

Pretending this is a non issue, when there is endless evidence that it is, doesn't strengthen your case.
 

Youn

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Where is this "endless evidence" exactly? PSVR and older VR systems don't really count, the newer stuff is better. Some folks thought during DK1 days the motion sickness problem would never be overcome but now they found a way to do it. Maybe you're stuck on old news?
 

Snowdog

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Where is this "endless evidence" exactly? PSVR and older VR systems don't really count, the newer stuff is better. Some folks thought during DK1 days the motion sickness problem would never be overcome but now they found a way to do it. Maybe you're stuck on old news?
You mean the only systems where the mainstream press still bothered to look at these issues. They didn't go away, it's just that the news cycle has move away from VR reporting.

Mismatch from 1:1 is a unsolvable issue for most people. It won't be fixed by technology. It's based on how humans senses are wired. If your senses report significant mismatch, most people get motion sick.
 

Youn

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so you think the progress made in the last couple years (that HAS fixed the issue for some people) will now promptly stop because nobody can outsmart our senses... ok, you're smart... I agree it may always be an issue for some, like car/travel sickness is
 

OFaceSIG

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I brought my system to a BBQ party. Had maybe 20-30 people try it. They were lined up. Loved it, and no one puked. It was hard to pull a user off so everyone could try.
I don't buy games that aren't VR, unless they are strategy games or multi-player party games, where classic 2D is the only option.
At the end of your amazing session you should have asked how many of them would ACTUALLY buy it for themselves, versus just using it at a party, like I said is a likely future for VR.

I've had 20+ people use it with room scale with no issues... I've never seen the instant teleport bother anyone. My kids play for hours in the winter.
You should have asked how many of them would ACTUALLY buy it for themselves, versus just using it at a party, like I said is a likely future for VR.
 
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Youn

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or ask, at what price would you buy this for...

I'm sure at $400 for quest it's still too pricey for most people. Maybe with more good content that'll change. Just consider how far that tech has improved over just a few years though. We're miniaturizing things at a pretty quick pace. In a couple years the Quest 2 or whatever may be $300 and look better than the current one, and with 4x more content. Maybe that happens and more people buy VR. Maybe it doesn't... why discourage it though?
 
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