CaptNumbNutz
Fully [H]
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My guess is he wanted to make sure they had learned their lesson from GPP. Apparently they didn't and decided to double down on bullshit.
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NVIDIA NDA & HardOCP - POLL
- Thread starter FrgMstr
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Zion Halcyon
2[H]4U
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What I would love is for Intel to come along and make this obsolete by allowing Kyle to review their products with no strings attached when they launched their new discrete video cards. If they can bring something competitive, Nvidia can go sit and spin.
DooKey
[H]F Junkie
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I'm sure he'll lose sleep over that.
viper1152012
[H]ard|Gawd
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I would say not worth it, too many sites that have their hands tied behind their back.
I visit this site because of the unbridled truth of the matter.... Not a gagged sunshine view that nvidia controls.
I visit this site because of the unbridled truth of the matter.... Not a gagged sunshine view that nvidia controls.
Fuck'em.
"Any and all technical knowledge from time to time. This agreement shall continue [indefinitely.]"
Prevents you from acting on anything you may obtain from non-public leaks within nVidia about anything. If they intentionally give you details that you later find out from testing, it's a danger to report on it. That impacts reporting. Getting sued by nVidia is going to cost you a lot more than a few overpriced video cards.
The 5 year time frame is only for one specific point of knowledge (i.e. they share with you info about the 2080). The contract continues forever.
If you think this is worth it for this card, sign the NDA, get the card, terminate the NDA.
"Any and all technical knowledge from time to time. This agreement shall continue [indefinitely.]"
Prevents you from acting on anything you may obtain from non-public leaks within nVidia about anything. If they intentionally give you details that you later find out from testing, it's a danger to report on it. That impacts reporting. Getting sued by nVidia is going to cost you a lot more than a few overpriced video cards.
The 5 year time frame is only for one specific point of knowledge (i.e. they share with you info about the 2080). The contract continues forever.
If you think this is worth it for this card, sign the NDA, get the card, terminate the NDA.
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Thing is nvidia isn't resting in its laurels like intel did since SB.
Brackle
Old Timer
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Stupid question, Could you "Borrow" another reviewers card before the NDA is up? Or does the NDA prevent reviewers from doing that?
I am not going to vote. Tom's Hardware lost my traffic when they started auto playing content, hounding me for permission to spam my mailbox, and generally derping up their community. Kyle's decision to sign or not to sign the NVidia NDA will not affect my decision to come here.
P.S. And if he doesn't sign the NDA, he can't really report on how NVidia enforces the NDA, can he?
P.S. And if he doesn't sign the NDA, he can't really report on how NVidia enforces the NDA, can he?
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Honestly, I did not expect a reply at all. NVIDIA has not returned a single email, text, or phone call since I wrote the first GPP article. They have been 100% radio silent. That all said, I did feel as though I was not doing my job as a reviewer just making an assumption that I was "cut off," even though they certainly made that clear back when we were talking about publishing GPP. I felt as though it was part of my due diligence in my job as a reviewer to at least ask.
And for the record, I have never been asked to sign an NDA like that in all my years with NVIDIA and their review program. In fact, many years I was exempt from NDAs at NVIDIA's choice. So again, no assumptions.
I think the only fair way to do this is to restrict access for users who choose the "Yes" option. They'll be able to see the only content they care about: reviews - none of the pesky forums since they might contain actual journalism.I think the only fair way to do this poll is to charge $4300 to forum users who choose the "No" option
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To do that I would be asking someone to break their NDA. Not something I have ever felt comfortable doing in the twenty years we have been doing this.
Confidential sources. NOT signing the NDA is the only way he'd be able to report on the enforcement of the NDA without putting his livelihood in another journalist's hands.
**edit since this has reached 10 pages already**
No the NDA isn't a big deal... IF you're only interested in reviewing the hardware. [H]ardOCP isn't just a review site though. I'm not a lawyer, but I've signed my share of NDAs (for what it's worth, even as a contractor I don't recall ever seeing one as broad as this,) and even had a handful of release forms drafted in my time, my understanding of legal documents is this: your wiggle room in regards to a legal contract is clearly defined in that contract. If they include nice blanket statements like "any and all technical and non-technical information disclosed or made available to Recipient from time-to-time by the Disclosing Party, including but not limited to the terms of this Agreement, assets, material technologies, and platforms" that means that ANY info that Kyle gets from NVIDIA is considered Confidential and is subject to the NDA, and must be used "solely for the benefit of NVIDIA" and Kyle "shall not: post news stories based on confidential information" or "post confidential information on pulbic or private forums or user discussion websites" When they've defined confidential information as literally anything from anyone employed by NVIDIA it's not a reasonable NDA unless the all you do is review hardware, or are a contractor working for NVIDIA.
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Denpepe
2[H]4U
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From what I gathered it's a standard NDA with a longer duration that does not hinder [H] in any way to publish an honest critical review
Not sure if this has been linked b4 in here but I'll link it again, it's from a while back from Steve from GN.
I voted yes btw, I think everyone needs to play on a lvl playing field, but ofc it's up to Kyle to do what he thinks is right.
Not sure if this has been linked b4 in here but I'll link it again, it's from a while back from Steve from GN.
I voted yes btw, I think everyone needs to play on a lvl playing field, but ofc it's up to Kyle to do what he thinks is right.
d8lock
Gawd
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Get a haircut hippie!
Dead Parrot
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Didn't disclosing the NDA violate Section 1 of the NDA? And doesn't Section 3a prohibit the publishing of 'News Stories' using the information received by signing the NDA? And I find 3f interesting - you can't threaten to expose Confidential Information, unless paid in cash or ad dollars. Didn't vote as not a lawyer. But I did have a pretty good understanding of the full set of Star Fleet Battles rules back in the day.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
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It was posted I believe. I think Nvidia sponsored it. Pretty legit.
pfc_m_drake
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I get that. I really do.
BUT
Reality is that you're like me - a dedicated [H] enthusiast. You need to consider the perspective that Kyle is likely trying to generate traffic from elsewhere in addition to those of us 'regulars'.
From that perspective I'm not sure it makes sense to be 'late to the party'. As I said though - that's Kyle's call.
SilverSliver
[H]F Junkie
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I understand and appreciate your stance. That being said, I don't think you should be out multi thousands of dollars for reviews. If you can fairly review the cards and sign the NDA, I say sign it.
he can sell the cards after reviewing them so only the upfront costs are an issue...
The NDA posted was for someone else. I don't think Kyle has posted his one? I'm just assuming it is more or less the same. Also, you can't violate an NDA by publishing it unless you are already subject to an NDA. It could, however, be considered a breach of confidence if nVidia expressly stated that the NDA is not to be disclosed to anyone else, in which case [H] could be sued. It would be difficult to establish a quantum for damages though.
bigdogchris
Fully [H]
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I really doubt Nvidia has their next "big scheme" all lined up, just waiting for Kyle to sign the NDA so they roll it out care-free of consequences now that all leakers are gagged.
Why would they do anything dumb like GPP again in the near future? What happened here is probably a once in a career moment.
Why would they do anything dumb like GPP again in the near future? What happened here is probably a once in a career moment.
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Burke is a smart, stand-up guy from what I've seen so I do tend to agree with him. I think [H] took the proper stance on GPP (although I think NVIDIA handled it poorly all around) but I don't think a NDA on a new product is inherently out of place or too much the ask. I think there's a bit of a grey area considering NVIDIA's history of business tactics but for this release at least I don't think it'll be an issue.
I guess it comes down to can you justify the cost as is. From a journalistic POV, it's a horrible deal. If Asus, MSI et. al. are going to send you cards to test down the road, then maybe you can sell these at some point and (hopefully) get most of your money back.
Tough call Kyle. Ideally all the tech sites (from ZD Net to Anandtech, to Toms to H) would band together and simply refuse to review the cards at all, but that's about as likely to happen is consumer boycotting Nvidia until they drop this ridiculous NDA.
Tough call Kyle. Ideally all the tech sites (from ZD Net to Anandtech, to Toms to H) would band together and simply refuse to review the cards at all, but that's about as likely to happen is consumer boycotting Nvidia until they drop this ridiculous NDA.
TeknoMage13
n00b
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I say sign it. Gamers Nexus went over the NDA with a lawyer and it seemed pretty benign once translated from legalese to English.
SilverSliver
[H]F Junkie
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That's why I said that if does not affect the quality of the reviews. If Nvidia won't let him be objective, by all means.
To be honest I the way Nvidia has been handling it's launches, having early access doesn't even matter since the drivers aren't final, sometimes even the BIOS on the cards isn't final from some things I've seen in the past launches... IE, you have to then re-run all of your tests again with the new drivers, video card BIOSs, new games that come out tweaks etc.
Also, the games announced that show off Ray tracing won't all be available prior to launch anyhow. I think the new Tomb Raider game might be... but won't give much time for evaluation before the embargo lifts I'm betting.... I love Tomb Raider but lets be honest, the last Tomb Raider wasn't exactly the best showcase for DX12 features at launch... BFV won't be out until October, hopefully this will be able to show off some of the Ray Tracing features...
Also if you didn't impulse buy right after the announcement, you won't be getting one for a while... The Nvidia site says mid November if you want to get one of the "Founders Edition" cards, but that is only an estimation. I'm betting we won't even be able to find these on the shelf until Christmas or the new year while they sell off all the 1080 stock at a reduced price for people who can't wait to get a new card... Especially when everyone sees the shocking price tag on the top tier cards...
As a consumer the questions I am hoping to get answered before I drop boat loads of cash:
1. Difference in performance between these new cards.
2. Difference in performance, thermals, overclocking and noise from some AIB cards and the Nvidia Founders edition cards
3. Better real world demo of Ray Tracing in real world games, not tech demos, including performance impact
4. Proof that the RTX 2080ti walks all over the Titan Xp... which costs the same amount...
Also, the games announced that show off Ray tracing won't all be available prior to launch anyhow. I think the new Tomb Raider game might be... but won't give much time for evaluation before the embargo lifts I'm betting.... I love Tomb Raider but lets be honest, the last Tomb Raider wasn't exactly the best showcase for DX12 features at launch... BFV won't be out until October, hopefully this will be able to show off some of the Ray Tracing features...
Also if you didn't impulse buy right after the announcement, you won't be getting one for a while... The Nvidia site says mid November if you want to get one of the "Founders Edition" cards, but that is only an estimation. I'm betting we won't even be able to find these on the shelf until Christmas or the new year while they sell off all the 1080 stock at a reduced price for people who can't wait to get a new card... Especially when everyone sees the shocking price tag on the top tier cards...
As a consumer the questions I am hoping to get answered before I drop boat loads of cash:
1. Difference in performance between these new cards.
2. Difference in performance, thermals, overclocking and noise from some AIB cards and the Nvidia Founders edition cards
3. Better real world demo of Ray Tracing in real world games, not tech demos, including performance impact
4. Proof that the RTX 2080ti walks all over the Titan Xp... which costs the same amount...
lostin3d
[H]ard|Gawd
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Really had to think about this and try to keep it simple. Many quality posts here both for and against. I'm voting no. I'm also going to put some of my money where my mouth is and sign up for patreon tomorrow as its getting late and running out of time for some things tonight.
1. I think this NDA is BS with the vagueness but all too the point for it's enforcement.
2. From your articles to the threads [H] to me is blatant untainted truth. About the only depressing thing I encounter here is how many things I learn that never make it to mainstream media(or sometimes years anyway) and how many people probably believe I have a collection of foil hats because of them. [H] doesn't necessarily pick favorites, but obviously in the threads we can. If NV does something good, you report it. They do something bad, the same. You do the same for Apple, AMD, Intel, MS, Facebook, Amazon, Google, etc.
3. A hundred sites could decline to sign this thing and I don't for one moment believe it will affect NV's approach. For the time being they're too big to fail and don't need to justify their actions. The one's that do are only encouraging a future we may not be able to avoid but at least maybe slow.
4. I can only hope that maybe some AIB's can offer you a better deal. Un-modded FE cards never impressed me beyond the exhaust vents anyway LOL.
Regardless I'll still keep coming back here. I truly know what it's like to have to make compromises to move forward. It's a part of life. Sometimes though, it's nice when we don't. I'm voting no for NDA, but yes for Kyle and [H]ard no matter what!
edit: Patreon-done!
1. I think this NDA is BS with the vagueness but all too the point for it's enforcement.
2. From your articles to the threads [H] to me is blatant untainted truth. About the only depressing thing I encounter here is how many things I learn that never make it to mainstream media(or sometimes years anyway) and how many people probably believe I have a collection of foil hats because of them. [H] doesn't necessarily pick favorites, but obviously in the threads we can. If NV does something good, you report it. They do something bad, the same. You do the same for Apple, AMD, Intel, MS, Facebook, Amazon, Google, etc.
3. A hundred sites could decline to sign this thing and I don't for one moment believe it will affect NV's approach. For the time being they're too big to fail and don't need to justify their actions. The one's that do are only encouraging a future we may not be able to avoid but at least maybe slow.
4. I can only hope that maybe some AIB's can offer you a better deal. Un-modded FE cards never impressed me beyond the exhaust vents anyway LOL.
Regardless I'll still keep coming back here. I truly know what it's like to have to make compromises to move forward. It's a part of life. Sometimes though, it's nice when we don't. I'm voting no for NDA, but yes for Kyle and [H]ard no matter what!
edit: Patreon-done!
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I say sign it, as long as you can do what you need to with the reviews and being honest. Nvidia is basically giving you guys a bone to chew on and they probably figured that if you guys keep giving them bad press, they will look worse. By offering a way back in their review channel, they might be getting some good press from you for a change. Just my 2 cents.
Just think of it as a win win for both parties involved....
Just think of it as a win win for both parties involved....
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That only means something if you 100% trust the one doing the translation. I don't know who the hell he is so I have no reason to trust him.
Besides, Kyle has already stated he's had his lawyer look over it and it's not good especially regarding the duration as well as how it would likely kill most nVidia stories Kyle might want to run. If the only thing you do is review video cards the NDA isn't a horrible thing. However, if you are an actual journalist and not just a video card reviewer the NDA basically cuffs and gags you regarding anything nVidia.
I support the [H] through Patreon, and I support Kyle whichever direction he goes. nVidia got sour grapes over honest journalism because they got exposed for attempting a hostile takeover of another companies branding for their GPUs. I would read that NDA carefully and I support whatever you decide. I value [H] reviews because you guys give unbiased reviews and some those reviews (Arctic Cooling Liquid Freezer 120) led me to purchasing said reviewed hardware. I have personally chosen not to purchase any more nVidia GPUs, raytracing or not, because of their worse than childish behavior over GPP being exposed for what it was.
Supercharged_Z06
2[H]4U
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#4 on your list is probably the biggest driver for many of us with 1080Ti's and Pascal Titan cards... The fact that Nvidia's official roll-out of these new cards mentioned and showed absolutely squat, zero, zilch as to any real performance comparisons / benchmarks doesn't bode well for enticing any of us to want to embrace this new offering. And that's regardless of how many gigarays and camera blinding reflections Jen-Hsun Huang can deliver while holding one up during his show & tell moment...
Also, I'll gladly wait on Kyle and the [H] staff to do a review using off the shelf purchased hardware sans any NDA bullshittery before I'd even consider pursuing an upgrade. From the looks of things thus far, there really is no rush and it appears that this next gen part isn't all that big a step forward yet...
In conclusion, I just signed up to become a [H] Patron. Kyle, please don't sign that shit and keep the unfiltered and unfettered, honest [H] reviews coming!
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It's likely that NVIDIAs NDA just simply isn't enforceable. It's a touch call though and I respect either path forward. I really do appreciate Kyle's no care approach to telling it how it is. On this forum, it's appreciated and appropriate. I've only recently started using this account and go through posting bursts as I have a life outside the forums, but I come here consistently because I know it will be no BS. If I want to read the marketing, I can do that from the press releases.
The one thing I do wish [H] did better was explore the architectural aspects more. As a computer engineer, plus more degrees, I do enjoy exploring the finer details as well. I'm ok if that doesn't change, but it's a minor criticism. Sh!t, Kyle's going to ask me to write those pieces! I take it back.
If cost becomes an issue to pursue the truth, I'm sure there's enough of us to fund it's pursuit if properly articulated and thought out.
Edit: Ok, put more money where my mouth is. Just added a Patreon pledge of $10/mth (is that even enough?), but whatever it's just money and there's plenty of that in the world, just not distributed to liking of most.
Keep up the good work.
The one thing I do wish [H] did better was explore the architectural aspects more. As a computer engineer, plus more degrees, I do enjoy exploring the finer details as well. I'm ok if that doesn't change, but it's a minor criticism. Sh!t, Kyle's going to ask me to write those pieces!
I take it back.If cost becomes an issue to pursue the truth, I'm sure there's enough of us to fund it's pursuit if properly articulated and thought out.
Edit: Ok, put more money where my mouth is. Just added a Patreon pledge of $10/mth (is that even enough?), but whatever it's just money and there's plenty of that in the world, just not distributed to liking of most.
Keep up the good work.
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Because it's who they are (it's in the very name "Nvidia", look up the meaning) and it exposed Nvidia's real self, who they really are and how they intend to do business. Someone on this page said, " But then how can one sign a deal with the devil! " and IMO they are correct
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