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NVIDIA Announces Project Shield
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ballistic90
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It's because it's an inbetween device that doesn't have a specific identity, and each thing it's trying to do, there's a better option.
Android gaming - An android phone is much more portable, and you can get controllers for them. Yes, this thing is Tegra 4, but there won't be any games taking advantage of that for some time.
PC gaming - I could either just sit at my PC, play on a laptop, or hook my PC up to my TV. Unlike most people I have an HDMI cable long enough to connect my PC to a TV without moving it, so it seems like an unneccesary expense. And you are limited to what video cards you can have.
ballistic90
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Most android games are designed for touch screen gaming, not that it's a good thing.
And there are controllers that have a phone cradle, and that would take away the one biggest advantage this thing has.
I could be reading too much into this, but I also see two latent intentions that NVIDIA is pushing with this product.
First is an attempt to devalue the console gaming market (where they sell no product) and trying to push a renaissance of PC-based gaming (where they sell product). They seemed to emphasize the strengths of PC gaming in their presentation, while trying to whack-down its biggest weaknesses (w/ Shield).
The second is to compel their partners to think creatively about the potential uses for their Tegra 4 SoC. IOW, think outside the generic phone and tablet uses and try to come up with other devices. Tegra 4 could certainly land in a TV and provide some nice benefits, taking the "smart TV" concept to a much higher level. Maybe NVIDIA is trying to say that these modern mobile chips aren't just those little puny ARM processors of the past.
An unrelated signal being sent to investors is that NVIDIA is prepared for a variety of different markets and industries, even if some don't pan out (cloud gaming). They have a mobile strategy, have a firm footing in the HPC market, still solid in the PC GPU industry, and are looking to leverage all their avenues into both wide and local cloud technologies. Obviously not everything will bear fruit, but they're mitigating the risk that the "next big thing" will pass right by them.
First is an attempt to devalue the console gaming market (where they sell no product) and trying to push a renaissance of PC-based gaming (where they sell product). They seemed to emphasize the strengths of PC gaming in their presentation, while trying to whack-down its biggest weaknesses (w/ Shield).
The second is to compel their partners to think creatively about the potential uses for their Tegra 4 SoC. IOW, think outside the generic phone and tablet uses and try to come up with other devices. Tegra 4 could certainly land in a TV and provide some nice benefits, taking the "smart TV" concept to a much higher level. Maybe NVIDIA is trying to say that these modern mobile chips aren't just those little puny ARM processors of the past.
An unrelated signal being sent to investors is that NVIDIA is prepared for a variety of different markets and industries, even if some don't pan out (cloud gaming). They have a mobile strategy, have a firm footing in the HPC market, still solid in the PC GPU industry, and are looking to leverage all their avenues into both wide and local cloud technologies. Obviously not everything will bear fruit, but they're mitigating the risk that the "next big thing" will pass right by them.
bman212121
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But that's the biggest point of having the controller integrated. If you were designing a game for the shield, you would know every person has gamepad controls they can use. The devs can test and make sure everything works flawlessly. If you are attempting to use a 3rd party controller to control a touch screen game, you're going to have mixed results on whether or not the controls work.
On top of that, the gamepad has a ton of buttons. Most touchscreen games are going to be designed around little to no buttons so if you attempt to use a controller there won't be a way to simply map a function to a button.
It's not just here though.
A few weeks ago Ars ran an article about a possible Steam console and everyone came out of the woodwork to talk about how Valve couldn't *possibly* enter the console market out of nowhere. I mean... they'd have no games! And there are already competitors!
The fact that Microsoft did exactly the same thing just a few years ago was lost on them.
I know naysaying is an internet hobby, but the truth is that this entire industry is built on taking risks, and moving forward into uncomfortable areas. That necessarily entails creeping out onto the weak limbs of the tree and seeing if they're sustainable. Oftentimes you fall, but sometimes you find a golden egg. And even if you do fall, you always learn something along the way.
Making money is all about taking risks. You can't make money without risk. And that's why Jen-Hsun Huang is worth half a billion dollars and most of the rest of us punch time cards every day.
wonderfield
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I think that's the direction NVIDIA's looking to go. I can envision something like a mini-GRID, where you'll have some sort of Tegra SoC acting as a front end to a small array of GPUs, and all clients to that are just dumb terminals (perhaps also with Tegra SoCs, as with the Shield).
The latency problem is mostly solvable. It's just a matter of increasing refresh rates, tightening up input and other core systems on a game-by-game basis and working with display vendors (of all sorts) on minimizing the amount of latency their processing incurs per frame (and/or providing an optional near-zero-latency path). As it stands today, your typical Xbox/PS3 game probably has more end-to-end latency than the Shield will have streaming PC games, and we've all been very tolerant of that for a long time. For certain types of competitive games, any additional latency will be intolerable, but most games don't need to have near-zero end-to-end latency.
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ballistic90
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Oh, you mean like my Wii U? It's basically the same thing, except seamless handheld screen to TV screen switching when neccesary.
Maybe it is just me, but i hated consoles because there are the reasons why graphics sucked. Traditionally speaking, consoles are made to last 10+ years. At the beginning of its releases, games are great as the hardware are capable. But as time goes, developers have to downscale games to run on consoles to an extend that they simply develop games on consoles and then port it onto PC. In other words, PC version is nothing more than bigger skin files from its console counter parts.
This little device opens up new ground for developers to design games that run on PCs or even GPU servers. Pay attention to the PC that was hosting the game for the SHIELD, it was acting like a server where you can start other apps on it. The little glitch during the demo showed that there were 2 SHIELD connected to 1 PC, indicating that 1 PC can launch at least 2 sessions of SHIELD gaming. Maybe it will need more than 1 GTX 680 for it, but it is possible. I don't think a single GTX 680 can launch 2 sessions of 4k res, but i believe 2 720p res is not going to be a problem. If implemented properly, setting up a LAN party will be easier than ever where all your friend has to bring is a SHIELD, or perhaps, any future handheld consoles.
I don't think Nvidia's goal is to sell SHIELD for big profit, but to sell more GPUs. SHIELD is just a doorway to new possibilities. If it is a hit, variations of SHIELD with wireless HDMI and no screen will come. Maybe it will come as a motion detector + wireless HDMI. Maybe it will come in as a wireless 3d goggle (2 independent display for each eye). The whole point is not about the power of the device itself, but how to utilize the power of the PC wirelessly.
4 months already more [H]ard then most of the people in this thread
i suck at writing and this is pretty much what i have been thinking and not being able to say
well said
metallicaband
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This is in NO WAY a console killer like some are suggesting it would be, that literally makes no sense since you're basically playing PC games on a handheld device, people have been able to play PC games on their HDTVs with controllers since a very long time!
As for the device, it looks very uncomfortable to me, but if it turned out alright, I only see a very small market interested in such device, it's very limited! I mean the whole point of a handheld device is to play outside of your home, but it seems this thing can only run android games there which isn't a big deal at all considering smart phones already have that and they're far more portable! When I'm at home, I'll just play with my DS3 controller on my plasma!
As for the device, it looks very uncomfortable to me, but if it turned out alright, I only see a very small market interested in such device, it's very limited! I mean the whole point of a handheld device is to play outside of your home, but it seems this thing can only run android games there which isn't a big deal at all considering smart phones already have that and they're far more portable! When I'm at home, I'll just play with my DS3 controller on my plasma!
Yes you are.
All of us here are [H]ard! Any excuse for masturbation can help bring some relief from over [H]ardness.
Hey, will it work? I dont know till we can try it for real.
But I love the idea, and that is good enough for some "handy" fun.
That's what I'm thinking.
I don't see the purpose. The (PC) gamers who have high end nVidia GPUs run at higher resolutions on a 27" or 30" LCD, or Surround setup.
So nVidia is going to allow them to buy a $300 device with a 5" LCD so they can play their game on their bigscreen TV (likely 1080p) in the other room?
I don't think so.
First divide the market for discrete graphics (lets just say for the sake of argument, 60% of the discrete market is nVidia).
Now let's take a fraction of those who have a GTX 650 or above.
Now let's take a fraction of that: those (PC) gamers who have friends and want to play on a TV.
< 1% of the discrete gpu market. Sorry folks, but PC gamers are a different crowd than console gamers. This $200-$300 device will be very short lived.
The ONLY way I see this being useful is if you can use it outside your own local Wifi network. (i.e., take it to a friend's house and be able to play games from your PC on the friend's TV).
ballistic90
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The gamepad has the same amount of buttons as almost every wireless controller being made for Android phones. If they make a game that uses the buttons on the shield, more than likely they can be mapped to a similar button on another controller. And yes, touchscreen games aren't going to be designed to be used with the shield controller. So what would be the point of having a phone sized device that uses a touchscreen based phone OS that can't make calls and isn't designed with most of the OS' games in mind?
You don't get it. It can wirelessly stream to the tv. They plugged it in for the demo to avoid technical issues.
you could if 99% of ISPs in the US didnt SUCK
OH HAI Google Fiber
no really NV need to get with Google with this and Grid and demo the FUCK out of it
THIS is what you can do with a 1Gbps connection ASS HOLES lol kinda thing to all the naysayers dogging Google Fiber
there is a huge synergy of tech coming thats waiting on one thing BIG OPEN internet connections like Google Fiber and its the greedy ISPs holding it all back because they dont want to let of big media
i get ISPs need to make money but they are running the ship aground by not investing some of that back in to there infrastructure
Most intellegent comment after reading all these comments.
Lorien
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Wrong
The PC streams the game to the device and you need an HDMI cable from the device to see that image on your TV. They used ethernet to connect to the PC to avoid a disconnection should the Wifi signal get interrupted. You can hear JHH asking the guy on the demo PC "are we good?" and the guy tells him "yeah, it should be good".
The more I think about it, the more caveats I see with this thing. People say it can play all your PC games without taking into account the ergonomics of it.
Try playing an RTS with it, sure you could use the touch screen (if it even works) but try selecting units or issuing build orders swiping at that tiny screen without a cursor to guide you. The built in buttons and d-pad analog sticks will never be a good replacement for a mouse/kb combo.
Try playing an MMO like WoW with it. There are more abilities than buttons on the device, not to mention camera control without a mouse. Again you could swipe at that tiny screen and see if you hit the correct ability icons.
Give up your main ergonomic advantage of playing an FPS in a PC (mouse and keyboard) and downgrade to a clunky controller. Sure you can swipe at the tiny screen (again if that even works) but then you'd be covering the screen with your hand.
Some games are downright unplayable because you NEED the precision of a mouse. Try picking up loot in Diablo3 or any action rpg and you will also have the same issue of having more abilities than buttons available on the device.
The only genres left that work ok with it are platform (should work well), racing (give up your racing wheel?), fighting games (should work well) and Skyrim like RPGs (should work well as long as there are less player abilities than buttons on the device). The problem is consoles have all the best exclusives of many of those genres already.
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Anand reports that Shield can stream the display wirelessly to the TV if the TV has a compatible receiver.
Or, at least, this is the intention by launch date.
But don't be so close minded.
Say for example you are doing all the above today?
What if you call in a hooker, and want some Portal 2 action while doing it doggie style in your bedroom? Hell, this use case, probably will cost me as much as a civilized evening at the peelers, but probably much more immersive.
If I ever do this, I promise to post pics of it on Genmay!
Hey, I am not trying to troll, just trying to point out that, giving reasons why you DONT need it, is usually not as interesting of coming with creative ways on where it can be useful, fun, cost effective, and damn right [H]ard.
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No it doesn't...
ballistic90
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Well, I don't need a hooker for anything like that, and the range on the Wii U controller (depending on wireless interference) would allow a similar scenario, except with my wife.
We discovered that when playing games, oral sex is really the way to go.
limitedaccess
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Thanks for that information.
See here for streaming options - http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1039490805#post1039490805
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039490828&postcount=69
As for an external laptop GPU both Asus and MSI have demoed working external GPU solutions but have never announced any production plans. The MSI one is much more recent and utilizes thunderbolt for connectivity. Perhaps with more thunderbolt adoption you might see a more earnest effort to bring one to market.
wonderfield
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You really don't need much bandwidth for these applications. Most cable connections are fine; most higher-tier DSL connections are suitable; FiOS is obviously more than ample.
Exactly. You don't need tons of throughput, you need decent latency. Having a gigabit connection doesn't do you any good for this over a 20mbit connection if you're stuck trying to stream and play with 100ms ping. 100 ms back to the server for input, another 100ms back to your streaming device to show you what's happening... that's 200ms right there not including the typical scaling issues and this is assuming that the software running on the server has no delays.
Just to be clear. This can not play PC Games. Do not make that mistake. You need a PC for this to work. It will not replace your gaming PC. It simply streams the video output and control input via wireless instead of cables. It will however run Android games.
Interesting I guess but I don't see the appeal.
Lorien
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Digging a little further, there is a device that can stream your PC to your TV using Wireless HDMI (WDHI).
You need this: http://www.amimon.com/Stick and a WDHI receiver
So you connect the stick on your PC and WHDI receiver on your TV, then get a wireless xbox 360 or PS3 controller, run steam big picture and profit?
You need this: http://www.amimon.com/Stick and a WDHI receiver
So you connect the stick on your PC and WHDI receiver on your TV, then get a wireless xbox 360 or PS3 controller, run steam big picture and profit?
To what TV?
My TV doesn't have WIFI, so how can anything wireless stream to it? Does it come with a Wireless HDMI dongle?
IMO it is an interesting, portable Android game machine, but the streaming capabilities are kind of a gimmick.
Still though, nice to see NVidia thinking out of the box.
im throwing money at my screen and nothings happening
I want to see how I can also jet money at my hyperbollocks and get awesomeness as is foretold.
I guess I am not the only one who hated consoles than. I suck at writing too, but thank you.4 months already more [H]ard then most of the people in this thread
i suck at writing and this is pretty much what i have been thinking and not being able to say
well said
I did say the power of "your PC". Although it isn't clear in the demo, but it can connect to your PC via WIFI. I hope that I am not mistaken.
The price will be the deciding factor for this. I have a 1440p monitor so I doubt stepping back to a 5" 720p screen would make me happy. However, there are cases where older games might be fun. I think I could find a lot of uses for it as an android device if the price were right.
I have not gotten Youtube video from here for a few weeks now, I guess they expanded their advertising and those servers are blocked from scripting. Oh well. You kids have fun with your new toys. It did not grab my attention enough to allow the google ads.
11 pages? I am really not THAT interested anyway!
11 pages? I am really not THAT interested anyway!
illram
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Yeah I think its because those of us that have put our PCs under our TVs are in the minority. Not even talking strictly HTPC here, I mean anything. Gaming rig, HTPC/gaming hybrid, whatever. Which is too bad, seeing as how it is nothing but awesome. But it seems to be a very small number of people who do this, for various reasons, so products like this come out to bridge that gap I suppose.
I just feel like this product is bridging a gap that should be closing anyway as the ability to make gaming PCs smaller and quieter improves, and as TVs become more than TVs and become more like another computer. I suppose there is the bonus of being able to play anywhere on the small screen with the pad, perhaps useful for the kids as someone else posited.
Not sure but it looks like this has not been posted here yet: Anandtech has a little hands-on preview
Really though, I see streaming like this as even smaller niche. The group that is really into PC gaming, and wants to display it on their TV, but prefers to stream (with potential GPU usage, latencey, glitches, etc) instead of reliable, latency free, direct connect?
Yeah the active cooling aspect is beginning to make me a little uncomfortable about where we're headed with Cortex-A15.