Windows 8 RTM vs win8 release preview

maw said:
Great, good for you. Now try it with 100 bookmarks, the names of which you cannot quite remember.
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First you said 20, now it's a 100. I can't imagine the average user having more than 20, and if the current metro system doesn't work for you maybe you should just use desktop IE, or maybe one of the other browsers' metro mode will have some kind of mass-bookmark management functionality. 100 seems insane to me, though.
 
devil22 said:
First you said 20, now it's a 100. I can't imagine the average user having more than 20, and if the current metro system doesn't work for you maybe you should just use desktop IE, or maybe one of the other browsers' metro mode will have some kind of mass-bookmark management functionality. 100 seems insane to me, though.
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Having 100+ bookmarks is not unusual at all. E.g. when I'm researching something, I often create a new bookmark folder, then populate it with dozens of bookmarks related to the subject matter.
And, yes, arranging bookmarks in some kind of logical order is something I do all the time, and yes, this is something I see other people do all the time as well. And no, "just start typing the name of the bookmark" doesn't work when you can't remember the name of the bookmark you're looking for.

Anyway, bookmarks was just an example, the point I'm making is that grouping and arranging tiles in some kind of logical order is tedious and frustrating when you are restricted to moving only one at a time.
 
I agree that 2007 was the real criminal in all this. Ribbons and no mods allowed.

A also agree the situation is much better in 2010.

Haven't dealt with 2013 yet. I suspect it will be the same just less pretty and more blocky/square so it matches the ugliness of Windows 8.

However, I have to listen to users complain about the Ribbon system every frickin day. It's clear it cuts into their productivity. Hell, it cuts into MY productivity.

The real, overall gripe here is Microsoft, over the last few years, has taken this stance of removing options from software that users have become accustomed to. If any company other than Microsoft were to do this, they would tank. Only their monopolized position allows them to do things like this.

Unknown-One said:
Huh? I find the ribbon on Office 2010 and Office 2013 to be far more customizable than what Office 2003 (and previous) allowed.

You can make an entirely custom ribbon with as many or as few buttons as you want on it. Older versions of office were pretty rigid, you were stuck with whatever was on a particular toolbar, and could only sort of shuffle it around the screen. Starting with Office 2010, you have total control.

Check out the settings in Office 2010 or Office 2013 some time, try making a custom ribbon :)

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maw said:
Anyway, bookmarks was just an example, the point I'm making is that grouping and arranging tiles in some kind of logical order is tedious and frustrating when you are restricted to moving only one at a time.
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Moving tiles isn't something people do very often. I brought up the same complaint/question, and the team was able to articulate quite well, based on known usage data, that tiles tend to be a "set up right once, then seldom change" kind of thing.

Since you can right click more than one to select, and can remove all unrelated tiles, it's actually quite easy to end up with a clean start screen.

You can contrive examples of where things might fall apart, but they're not supported by the vast majority of real-world experience.
 
TechLarry said:
I agree that 2007 was the real criminal in all this. Ribbons and no mods allowed.

A also agree the situation is much better in 2010.

Haven't dealt with 2013 yet. I suspect it will be the same just less pretty and more blocky/square so it matches the ugliness of Windows 8.

However, I have to listen to users complain about the Ribbon system every frickin day. It's clear it cuts into their productivity. Hell, it cuts into MY productivity.

The real, overall gripe here is Microsoft, over the last few years, has taken this stance of removing options from software that users have become accustomed to. If any company other than Microsoft were to do this, they would tank. Only their monopolized position allows them to do things like this.
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:rolleyes: Office 2013 is BY FAR the best looking Office to date. The ribbon only cuts into their productivity because they are too stubborn to learn how to use it. It IS more efficient than the menu strips.
 
Tawnos said:
Moving tiles isn't something people do very often. I brought up the same complaint/question, and the team was able to articulate quite well, based on known usage data, that tiles tend to be a "set up right once, then seldom change" kind of thing.

Since you can right click more than one to select, and can remove all unrelated tiles, it's actually quite easy to end up with a clean start screen.

You can contrive examples of where things might fall apart, but they're not supported by the vast majority of real-world experience.
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My problem with tiles is that they really do need a lot of management otherwise things do just get cluttered. If you install apps and allow them to create Start Menu (Start Screen in Windows 8) shortcuts, they just get plopped at the end. It would be nice if a group corresponding to the Start Menu folder got created in the process.

I like the Start Menu overall but it just gets messy without constant management if you install and pin stuff to it a lot. Not a time consuming process but still something that just needs better management.
 
TechLarry said:
However, I have to listen to users complain about the Ribbon system every frickin day. It's clear it cuts into their productivity. Hell, it cuts into MY productivity.
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The question is WHY would it cut into someone's productivity? With Office 2010 and 2013 a person can place all of there most commonly used functions in it's own tab and even the keyboard commands.
 
heatlesssun said:
My problem with tiles is that they really do need a lot of management otherwise things do just get cluttered. If you install apps and allow them to create Start Menu (Start Screen in Windows 8) shortcuts, they just get plopped at the end. It would be nice if a group corresponding to the Start Menu folder got created in the process.
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One does.

Win+Q from desktop, the folder structure is there.
 
maw said:
Having 100+ bookmarks is not unusual at all. E.g. when I'm researching something, I often create a new bookmark folder, then populate it with dozens of bookmarks related to the subject matter.
And, yes, arranging bookmarks in some kind of logical order is something I do all the time, and yes, this is something I see other people do all the time as well. And no, "just start typing the name of the bookmark" doesn't work when you can't remember the name of the bookmark you're looking for.

Anyway, bookmarks was just an example, the point I'm making is that grouping and arranging tiles in some kind of logical order is tedious and frustrating when you are restricted to moving only one at a time.
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First world problems lady is MIA I take it.
 
Tawnos said:
One does.

Win+Q from desktop, the folder structure is there.
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I am aware of the Apps Screen and I wonder why the Start Screen doesn't create the groups as well. There's just no way around not having to do management of tiles on the Start Screen when installing software, otherwise you just end up with a mess of tiles that are impossible to sort through until they are grouped.

I'm not your average Windows 8 basher and indeed I like Windows 8 overall and the Start Screen in my opinion is a step forward over the Start Menu, there's just a lot more potential to do things than the Start Menu ever could offer. When I do have a criticism of Windows 8 it's because I actually used it and there's no why for me understand how a block of tiles should just accumulate that shouldn't be grouped together by default as a good thing. Putting them in groups like the Apps Screen would be a nice improvement.
 
Is there a way to layout the tiles in a group the way i want them? It auto arranges the number of tiles in each row of a group and I can't seem to find any way to over ride what it's doing. Even though I'm using all "small" tiles, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to how it lays out the tiles, sometimes it puts 4 in a row, other times only two or three.
 
I don't quite understand what you mean, I get a column of two small tiles (or one big tile), and the rows seem to extend to the same lower limit, maybe a screen shot would help me understand.
 
devil22 said:
I don't quite understand what you mean, I get a column of two small tiles (or one big tile), and the rows seem to extend to the same lower limit, maybe a screen shot would help me understand.
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Sorry this is on my VM at work. Maybe this will be more clear. Say I made a group containing 8 tiles and I wanted to arrange the tiles in a group into two rows of 4 tiles each, or even 1 row of 8 tiles. Is there any way to customize how the tiles are arranged in a group?

It seems Windows determines the number of tiles in each row by itself, so in some groups it's two rows of three tiles and one row of two, other groups might have 4 rows of 2 tiles each. I can find no way to override this, if I try to move a tile to the position I want, it simply swaps it with another tile instead, keeping the same row count that Windows determined.
 
D4rkn3ss said:
that crap coded by a monkey doesnt work out of the box for anybody. still, theres fucking people recommending it :rolleyes:
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You are sure hellbent on calling everyone and anyone at Microsoft retarded, mongoloid, monkeys, etc.... usually with the word "fucking" in front of it...

I think we get it already...






Installed Win8 on my Shuttle XPC machine I use for my home server, and thus far no problems. Found drivers for all devices in the 5 year old Shuttle just fine.

Had an issue where it wouldn't let me select the drive to install it on during installation, but after I shut off the other 4 drives plugged into it, it worked fine.
 
D4rkn3ss said:
that crap coded by a monkey doesnt work out of the box for anybody. still, theres fucking people recommending it :rolleyes:
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I've used it 6 or 8 times without a problem, so it obviously works for some people. Perhaps you were experiencing some kind of user error?
 
Anyone who's using 8 Pro RTM without a key, is there a way to squelch the activation nagging every day? I fully intend to buy it on release (2-3 licenses), but it's kind of annoying to be kicked out of whatever I'm doing every few hours.
 
zaxour said:
Anyone who's using 8 Pro RTM without a key, is there a way to squelch the activation nagging every day? I fully intend to buy it on release (2-3 licenses), but it's kind of annoying to be kicked out of whatever I'm doing every few hours.
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The way you get rid of activation nagging is to activate. Put in a serial. If you don't have a serial, how the hell did you get the product?
 
heatlesssun said:
Clarence might always be on the desktop but fewer and fewer people in relation to all computing devices are using desktops, keyboards and mice.
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This is like saying we should get rid of gas stations because fewer and fewer people are driving gasoline powered cars. Yes, there are more people buying electric cars, but the vast majority are still using gas.
 
maw said:
This is like saying we should get rid of gas stations because fewer and fewer people are driving gasoline powered cars. Yes, there are more people buying electric cars, but the vast majority are still using gas.
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I have gas....

Seriously, though, I think that they are both there (similar to the gas station/charging stations) to start the transition. I don't mind Metro (or Modern UI or Windows 8 Interface...), and I like the old Desktop, but both together don't mesh well.

I'm actually working on a video (my first try at such a thing, and I suck) that shows my frustrations with it.

They aren't getting rid of gas stations, they are just making you drive around back to get to the gas pump and you have to walk around to the front charging station to start the gas pump then walk back around to fill up. But, when you're filling up you can read a magazine, check email and pump gas all at the same time. When you're charging your car, you have to stand right next to it and have to focus all your attention on your car - nothing else - unless you're done charging, then you can walk somewhere else (have to STOP charging the car) to do something else (which requires your full attention again). If you want to use anything older than 2 months old, you have to walk around back again... But while you're there, you can do your other stuff and watch a video, too. (In case you didn't get it, Metro is the charging station and the ol' gas station is Desktop).
 
heatlesssun said:
Clarence might always be on the desktop but fewer and fewer people in relation to all computing devices are using desktops, keyboards and mice.
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they need to give desktop users a start menu that DO use mouse and keyboard. Not everyone wants to be an apple douche bag.

I had a tablet fucking hated. I only use the internet on my phone when I don't have a desktop available. Fuck this mobile crap, I don't have little Chinese fingers - desktop for the fucking win any day of the week. I'll never be this fucking guy, you can though...

2883012011_b77b90bab9-1.jpg
 
dnottis said:
they need to give desktop users a start menu that DO use mouse and keyboard. Not everyone wants to be an apple douche bag.
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I'm currently using my main Windows 8 desktop, dual 1920x1200 screen, keyboard and mouse only. I can everything just as fast in Windows 8 with a keyboard and mouse on the desktop as I do in Windows 7 when only using desktop apps. One of the problems is that people haven't actually tried to see how they can customize things to fit an environment that's very much like they've always used, albeit with a full screen Start Screen.

Granted out of the box things default to Metro apps and I perfectly understand where some people don't like that. But I also think that there's a lot there in Metro world that people will like if they just take a look.

Windows 8 is extremely configurable from the standpoint of what apps you want to see and use and if you want it to behave like a traditional desktop or more like a tablet but it is a manual process but easy to do. As much as people want to claim that Windows 8 doesn't work well with a mouse and keyboard and that the Start Menu is needed, that's just simply not the case. It may be different and not familiar because of the nearly 2 decades that the Start Menu has been around but it does work and some will even think its better once they figure it out. There's nothing that the Start Menu did that I've not found as fast or faster way to do in Windows 8.

dnottis said:
I had a tablet fucking hated. I only use the internet on my phone when I don't have a desktop available. Fuck this mobile crap, I don't have little Chinese fingers - desktop for the fucking win any day of the week. I'll never be this fucking guy, you can though...
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And if this is the way the world was thinking, if people were buying desktops at a healthy rate of growth of like 5 to 10 percent year over year, if people were waiting with baited breath the another keyboard and mouse driven OS and laptops and desktops were all the rage, then Windows 8 would be a substantially different product than it is.

One may not like tablets or what Microsoft did with Windows 8 but these changes certainly have a point and that is to address where the world seems to be going with computing, particularly for average people. Computing is becoming more mobile and more touch based. It's an undeniable trend.
 
heatlesssun said:
One of the problems is that people haven't actually tried to see how they can customize things to fit an environment that's very much like they've always used, albeit with a full screen Start Screen.

Granted out of the box things default to Metro apps and I perfectly understand where some people don't like that. But I also think that there's a lot there in Metro world that people will like if they just take a look.

Windows 8 is extremely configurable from the standpoint of what apps you want to see and use and if you want it to behave like a traditional desktop or more like a tablet but it is a manual process but easy to do.
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Really? I guess this was mine main gripe with the whole "Metro" thing, but if I am wrong I would be extremely happy. Please let me know if I am wrong on any of the below points, as it would make my Windows 8 experience much, much better (honestly).

Can Start Screen layout be customized?
Can tile icons be customized on the Start screen? No.
Can tile labels be customized on the start screen? No.
Can the number of tiles per column be customized? No. (the only option is to move a slider to show "more" tiles, without being able to set a number or having any real control)
Can the number of columns be customized? No.
Can the justification or position of tiles be customized? No. (everything is top-left-justified, tiles cannot be positioned freely on the screen, say, on the bottom or on the right)​

Multitasking?
Can the charms bar, open apps bar, or settings bars be relocated to a different side of the screen? No. (multitasking in Win 7 is done with the taskbar, which can be moved to any screen edge. Why not include the same functionality in Metro?)
Can these items be optionally made persistent or auto-hidden? No. (again, why not include the functionality of the tasbar in this regard?
Are non-metro apps displayed in the open apps bar? No. (this is just silly. I can't get to a minimized desktop app from a metro app on the same screen without either going back to the desktop and maximizing it or going back to the start screen and clicking on the app tile)
​
Using a multimonitor setup?
Can the Metro interface appear on more than one screen at a time? No.
Can metro programs run on more than one screen at a time? No. (want a metro web browser running in one screen and any other metro app, including the start screen with its live tiles, running on another? Sorry, out of luck)
Can a user specify on which screen an application should open? No.
Can the start screen be made persistent on a screen? No. (want to open a desktop app from the start screen? You'll lose the start screen until you move the desktop app to another screen and manually reopent the start screen)
Can the start screen displayed at startup be moved to a screen OTHER than the one that also displays the main taskbar and notification tray? No.​


Anyway, these are just some of my frustrations withthe new Win8 experience. It seems a shame to me, because I think there is/was a lot of potential for MS to make a really powerful and useful experience, while allowing themselves to play in the tablet market.

Unfortunately, it seems that for power users, at least, Metro is a very poor design. For users without multiple monitors who are going to be only doing a little web-browsing and some very basic things, it probably won't be an issue. However, the multi-monitor and multi-tasking headaches are pretty big for those of us who actually use the desktop for different things than a tablet.

The problem is that the start screen and metro interface is not just designed to replace the start menu. It is designed to replace the start menu AND the desktop AND the taskbar. However, the traditional taskbar is much more effective at multitasking than the open apps bar, the desktop is much more customizable than the start screen, and the start menu is much less obtrusive than the start screen (eg: it is a small icon that expands, rather than taking up the entire screen).

As for myself, I use four monitors to work on, and Metro could have been a great experience. For example, if I could keep the start screen on one monitor, with live tiles and notifications always availabe, while opening full-screen metro apps to other monitors, I would be in heaven. Unfortunately, metro only works in one monitor at a time, making the experience worse and worse the more monitors a user has set up, simnply because if I open a metro app in one screen, I am forbidden from opening another metro app.
 
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When I pointed out some of these same problems I was apparently describing rare-use case scenarios as an excuse to find things to whine about, so I guess that makes you a whiner too ;)

manders2600 said:
Really? I guess this was mine main gripe with the whole "Metro" thing, but if I am wrong I would be extremely happy. Please let me know if I am wrong on any of the below points, as it would make my Windows 8 experience much, much better (honestly).
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