D4rkn3ss
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nice. 
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Windows 8 RTM vs win8 release preview
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Thanks for the great list, heatlesssun
heatlesssun
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Thanks for the great list, heatlesssun
My pleasure, it's nice to see people actually interested in learning how to use Windows 8 instead of simply critiquing something played with 5 minutes.
Just realized one today I saw in the latest Building Windows 8 Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/08/13/collaborating-to-deliver-windows-rt-pcs.aspx
WINKEY + Ctrl + Backspace: Switch to last app
It cycles through open Metro apps, which includes the desktop, in the main view, so if you have a Metro in snap view it leaves that be. I already love this one nice one but the keyboard combo is clumsy unfortunately. Just bound it to a G key on my Logtiech G15 and yeah, it's very cool that way.
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I've been using it the RP for a bit, so I'm in it for the long haul. It works a whole lot better than I expected (big difference from a VM). Looking forward to the TechNet release on Wednesday with 8 & 2012.
heatlesssun
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Yeah, I'm looking forward to the RTM on Wednesday myself. Really the more I used 8 the harder it has been for me to go back to 7. Yes, there's work to be done on smoothing out the new UI but 8 is just faster and more responsive overall even on the desktop.
I'd just like to interject and say that Windows 8 really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It's still customizable so if you don't like the new Metro UI you can remove it. If you're looking for examples, take a look at Start8 and Vistart.
The Metro UI is very disconcerting at first, but once you figure out how it works and decide what apps you want to use for the desktop, and which you want to use in Metro you get used to it. Windows 8 hasn't really damaged my workflow at all, I use it just like Windows 7 except I get mail notifications through my computer first instead of my phone because of the Mail app's push notifications. To me, the performance improvements, and the free built-in HyperVisor makes the upgrade worth it.
The Metro UI is very disconcerting at first, but once you figure out how it works and decide what apps you want to use for the desktop, and which you want to use in Metro you get used to it. Windows 8 hasn't really damaged my workflow at all, I use it just like Windows 7 except I get mail notifications through my computer first instead of my phone because of the Mail app's push notifications. To me, the performance improvements, and the free built-in HyperVisor makes the upgrade worth it.
heatlesssun
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This is pretty much how I think it's going to work for most people, this has been my experience.
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I know that I gave you & chinesepiratefood (sp?) a lot of crap about 8 CP & RP originally when I was using it on a VM. I fully admit that you & him were correct with explaining 8 to the fullest & defending (sometimes rabidly though - a bit disconcerting) the differences of what changes within Windows looks like.
At the very least, the performance is awesome & the UI works great even if I'm a bit irked with the lack of customization with the system & app interface options. It wasn't until I hit up TechEd NA 2012 that I realized the value of 8's new features.
heatlesssun
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I understand where you're coming from here. I naturally like to debate, just my nature, I try to keep it on the subject and not personal. But it seems that most of the discussion of Windows 8 around here was more focused on critiques of it rather than actual testing and usage.
I can appreciate that some people won't like Windows 8 and in particular new UI with no off switch. And with this forum being a PC hardware enthusiast site I guess it makes sense that Metro is popular around here.
I guess I just find it odd how much people would go on and on about how horrible Windows 8 is when it's pretty obvious that a lot of these people have barely touched it.
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The fear of change is what I can make of it. 8 appears to be that change to many people & trying it would mean that they wouldn't have license to perpetuate their fear with unbounded freedom.
Fixed that for you...
I still find Metro too clunky to use. I hate the big tiles, its ugly, counter intuitive and frustrating. SP1 will bring back a start menu with the option to boot Metro or desktop, mark my words.
Fixed that for you...
I still find Metro too clunky to use. I hate the big tiles, its ugly, counter intuitive and frustrating. SP1 will bring back a start menu with the option to boot Metro or desktop, mark my words.
No it won't. Metro is the start menu and tiles are easier to click and more informative than icons. It is here to stay
Thanks for the shortcut list - much appreciated but I would offer the opinion that shortcuts should compliment the UI, not be a replacement. Otherwise might as well just offer a CLI
MS stuck out on the Office ribbon so no reason why they won't stick out on this. In my naivety I still dont see why they should still have a start bar on the desktop with a method to "promote" compatible apps to the modern UI.
MS stuck out on the Office ribbon so no reason why they won't stick out on this. In my naivety I still dont see why they should still have a start bar on the desktop with a method to "promote" compatible apps to the modern UI.
heatlesssun
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Thanks for the shortcut list - much appreciated but I would offer the opinion that shortcuts should compliment the UI, not be a replacement. Otherwise might as well just offer a CLI
Thanks. These shortcuts are compliments to mouse interaction, when using a mouse you simply use the hot corners to do these things. There's been a lot of discussion about how efficient Windows 8 is with a mouse and keyboard and honestly if one is looking to be efficient, whether it be Windows 7 or 8 or some other OS, just knowing a handful of keyboard shortcuts can be a great productivity booster.
It's fine to question the efficacy of Windows 8 keyboard and mouse efficiency if at the same time one questions their own habits. Just because it's the way we've always done things doesn't mean it's the really the best or easiest. What I've noticed, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone, is that when the discussion of Windows 8's effectiveness on the desktop comes into question, most people are really just talking about the mouse and not the keyboard. Windows works with a mouse AND keyboard and we often forget about the keyboard when it comes to commanding. Adding just a few keyboard shortcuts to one's use of Windows adds much ease to the experience and if one has never tried it, going to Windows 8 is a good time I say. And this applies to Windows 7 and any other OS as well.
Well, I know I'll never truly like Windows 8, but I'm trying to find a comfortable way to live with it.
- Why can't I change the font sizes on tiles? The text on tiles for non-metro apps is too large and most of it gets cut off.
- And while we're at it, why can't I adjust the scale of the tiles?
- Why can't I move multiple tiles at once? Dragging tiles one at a time across the Start Screen to the group I created is tedious.
- Why do I have two completely different versions of IE?
- How the heck am I supposed to manage bookmarks in metro-IE? Am I supposed to pin hundreds of bookmarks all over my Start Screen? How in the world am I supposed to find a bookmarked site whose name I forgot if there is no easy way to group them logically?
- Is there any way to make desktop IE (or the browser of my choice) instead of Metro-IE open whenever I click a link in a Metro app?
- Why do I have to go to two completely different places to change personalized settings?
- Why can't I change the font sizes on tiles? The text on tiles for non-metro apps is too large and most of it gets cut off.
- And while we're at it, why can't I adjust the scale of the tiles?
- Why can't I move multiple tiles at once? Dragging tiles one at a time across the Start Screen to the group I created is tedious.
- Why do I have two completely different versions of IE?
- How the heck am I supposed to manage bookmarks in metro-IE? Am I supposed to pin hundreds of bookmarks all over my Start Screen? How in the world am I supposed to find a bookmarked site whose name I forgot if there is no easy way to group them logically?
- Is there any way to make desktop IE (or the browser of my choice) instead of Metro-IE open whenever I click a link in a Metro app?
- Why do I have to go to two completely different places to change personalized settings?
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Unknown-One
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You can drag multiple tiles. Click the [ - ] icon in the bottom-right corner of the start screen and drag whole groups around where you please.
So you have a choice of which UI you'd like to use... and also for compatibility reasons. The metro version of IE doesn't have much backwards compatibility with existing plugins, which some people might still need.
1. Open the desktop version of IE10
2. Click the gear icon
3. Click "Internet Options"
4. Click the "Programs" tab
5. Change "Choose how you open links" to "Always in Internet Explorer in the desktop"
I'm trying to move multiple tiles into a new group, not move an existing group of tiles.
If the goal of the OS was to make things simpler (which is why they removed so many options and customization) then I say they've failed badly. Win 8 is not simple and intuitive to use, either for a seasoned power user, casual users, or those new to Windows. It tries to do everything which leads to 2 completely different UI's, 2 versions of settings etc and that can never be simple or easy to use, no matter what you do.
I really wish the little things coming in Win Phone 8, such as the ability to customize tiles, had made it into Win 8.
I really wish the little things coming in Win Phone 8, such as the ability to customize tiles, had made it into Win 8.
Unknown-One
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What options and customization were removed, exactly?
Biggest change was replacing (not removing) the start menu with the start screen... but the start screen offers way more customization than the Start Menu ever did, so I don't see how it qualifies.
All the customizations I used on my Windows 7 desktop carried right over to the Windows 8 desktop, not really seeing where there was a loss...
Uh... you CAN customize the tiles in Windows 8... in fact, that feature was in Windows 8 before it was ever announced for Windows Phone.
The only real difference is that Windows 8 allows the user to select between two tile sizes, while Windows Phone 7.8 / 8.0 have an additional extra-small tile size.
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I can understand why you might want that, but try to understand, that is probably not going to be a common need, it would make for brittle, complex code, and require more development and testing, which is not always additive, it can multiply resource requirements if it can affect multiple other code paths that in turn affect multiple other code paths, etc. The potential bugs, and resources required are probably not offset by the gains the average user would see from that vs. just moving the tiles one by one.
Nope, not buying that. What's hard about selecting multiple tiles, then having a "Move to Group" option? This kind of behavior is not exactly new or groundbreaking in software. If it really cannot be done, then it points to a major design flaw.
Moving a bunch of tiles into a group is something I would do quite frequently, (E.g. I want to select all the bookmarks from Metro-IE and move them to my "Bookmarks" group instead of leaving them scattered all over the Start screen). If I have to move just 20 bookmarks, it's going to be a pain. Try it sometime.
OK, but why can't they talk to each other? Why do I now have to maintain 2 different sets of bookmarks for IE? So I open a Metro app that contains a link, I click on the link and Metro-IE opens up, great, now I want to bookmark that link so I can use it later when I'm working in IE on the Desktop. Oh wait, it can't be done.
Does that make any sense to you? How is this improving my productivity when I have to hunt around different versions of the same browser in order to get to sites I bookmarked?
Unknown-One
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Erm... why have you suddenly started using two different web browsers? Don't know about you, I don't use Firefox and then complain when IE doesn't have all my bookmarks in it...
I'd do what I suggested above and set either the desktop or the metro version as the default, that way you're always sent to the same browser, no matter what application called up a link.
Edit: Also, the metro version of IE doesn't really even have an internal bookmark system, it uses tiles pinned to the start screen. There's nothing to keep in sync in the first place...
Lets take a look at your scenario again; you opened a link from a metro app and were taken to Metro IE, but now you want to make use of the page on the desktop. Well, there's a button for that! Click the wrench, then click "View on the desktop" to immediately be taken to the desktop version of IE10 with the same page loaded. You can now bookmark the page as you normally would.
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There is no option to customize window colors or fonts anymore. The whole 'Advanced' section in Personalize is gone.
The white everywhere is nearly untolerable and gives me headaches, I've seen others mention this too. Now we can't change window background colors, fonts etc. There was NO reason to remove this very useful option.
I have moved 20+ tiles, and it took me half a minute or so. If you want to believe it's a major design flaw with nothing to support that, fine, but the reality is it's almost certainly not worth the effort on MS' part. Maybe a lot of people who use Windows 8 will complain, and they'll add it later, but I'm doubting too many people are going to care, I know I don't.
This is very convoluted and a good example of the mess they've made. There's no reason to have Metro IE on the desktop, since it offers nothing. Then on top of that, IE is treated as 2 different browsers in Metro and Desktop which makes no sense.
Your example is not really very good, no one expects bookmarks to carry over between Firefox and IE, they will between IE on the same pc.
If I'm supposed to be using all these great and wonderful things Metro has to offer, but also get work done on the desktop, then it's only logical to assume I'll have resources that will need to crossover both environments. If I'd like to be able to access said bookmarks from both Desktop and Metro, it's double work to manage them. But even worse, it's a completly different set of steps that I will need to do for each.
Isn't the whole point of this Windows 8 exercise to blend the benefits of both Metro and desktop into some sort of seamless functionality?
At least with Firefox, Chrome, etc.. I can "import bookmarks from IE", yet I can't do the same between IE Desktop and Metro-IE.
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heatlesssun
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It does seem to add battery life, Metro apps are much more power efficient. I've not done any real testing but just from observation I do seem to get better battery life the more I stay in the Metro IE browser.
In all of this talk about Metro's suitability on the desktop, let's not forget most Windows devices even today are mobile and can run on batteries.
Great, good for you. Now try it with 100 bookmarks, the names of which you cannot quite remember.
heatlesssun
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Actually in the RTM you can now add sites to the desktop favorites from the Metro browser and add sites to the Start Screen from the desktop browser. One thing you can't do is add a favorite directly to a folder from the Metro browser, you can only add to the root of Favorites. However if you do move the favorite to a folder later on, you can still load the site from the Metro browser.
Both browsers now support both systems though it still can be improved.
IE being treated as two different browsers is a terrible decision imho. If you use the MS logon I'm not sure why there isn't some option to save them in the "cloud" such that they sync seamlessly on any IE browser you use with your logon. Even better if the browser manufacturers could agree on some common format so any browser could use each other's links (why is the favourites design such utter crap in browsers?!)
heatlesssun
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Favorites and Start Screen IE links do sync in Windows 8 if you use a single Microsoft account across multiple machines.
Unknown-One
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Window colors:
Fonts sizes:
Well, that's because the Classic theme (which the old dialog box was tied to) is finally gone. There are still options, though (this section of the control panel was a bit hard to find, I'll admit):
Since I'm 99.9% sure Metro and desktop IE share the same rendering engine (Trident), any increased battery life can only be due to the lack of plugin support. But that's the one reason its a useless to me. I'm not going to use a browser without essentials like LastPass. Extensions are the main reason Chrome/Firefox are so much more productive, since for pure rendering IE10 is actually faster in many cases.
I dont really disagree with what you say (and to be fair I am one of the guilty ones in that I am commenting without a long enough time experiencing it I think) but if one were to take this to its logical conclusion then users would need to remember a bunch of shortcuts (like Word Perfect days if you were around then!) to make up for the (debatable!) shortcomings in the UI of the OS or the hosted app. I'd love to see if the actual productivity gain figures mention in the MS TAP program from moving from menu's to the strip in Office 2007 were actually realised. Its the same thing here - does this all mean that the user is more productivie? Windows 8 benchmarking against 7 looks strong - thats a good start....
The ethos behind this I have no problem with - why should I need to open an app fully to know its status etc - but I'm still not anywhere near 100% convinced of the implementation. There is also (for me) a marked difference in the comsumer / business world which I am not sure the UI is 100% ideal for - comsumers moving towards "soundbites" of information (kids attention spans!) whereas the devil is in the detail on the business side.
Anyway, all debatable, I'm happy to see people with a positive view on Windows 8 as it makes me question my own viewpoint.
Does that happen for "both IE's" mentioned in this thread. I stuck another browser on straight away.
Window colors:
Fonts sizes:
Well, that's because the Classic theme (which the old dialog box was tied to) is finally gone. There are still options, though (this section of the control panel was a bit hard to find, I'll admit):
Still can't choose a font, only the font size. Where is that 3rd dialog?
heatlesssun
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Yes, since it syncs both the Start Screen and Browser favorites, both of which can be created and used by either the desktop or Metro IE browsers.
heatlesssun
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I actually use this because increasing the font sizes substantially improves touch on the desktop in a lot of areas but it can cause some UI issues as well. The problem is that developers, even Microsoft, don't ever test or account for different font sizes and types so it's a nice option but it is not without issues.