Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

trparky

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It's still a problem because MS has that data, just as it would be a problem that anyone Microsoft sold it to could have that data.
Newsflash!!! This kind of stuff has been going on for the last fifty years! It's called marketing. If you haven't heard about it you must have been living under a rock since the early 1980s. This has been going on for years man, decades even. This isn't a new concept by any stretch of the imagination.
sharing it with law enforcement (which Microsoft says they do)
As any company should do. If there is a warrant the company being served has the legal obligation to hand over said associated data and if they disobey said warrant they would be held in contempt of court and the executives could be imprisoned themselves. Again, not a new concept by any means.
Microsoft have stated that they sell customer data.
I'm going to poke some holes in this.

The Microsoft Data Management Service routes information to internal cloud storage, where it's compiled into business reports for analysis and research.
Big fucking deal. As long as said data doesn't contain actual personal and personally identifiable data, it is just that... reports for analysis and research. Again, this shit's been going on since the early 1980s man. Get over it man, we've been the subject of this kind of shit for years.
Only those who can demonstrate a valid business need can access the telemetry info.
Oh... like nVidia knowing about why their drivers are suddenly causing systems world wide to spontaneously BSOD? That would be a perfectly valid business reason and one that I would be very damn happy that Microsoft shared said data with nVidia so as to better allow them to fix their shit.
However, we do share business reports with partners that include aggregated, anonymous telemetry information.
Again... as long as it doesn't contain personally identifiable data there is not a damn thing any judge or lawyer can do about it. Now if it actually named you, personally, in said data... then there would be a problem and the result of that would be a lawsuit so fucking big it would be able to eclipse the sun.
 
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heatlesssun

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This stuff has been out there for years reviewed by countless folks. It's boiler plate stuff. Anyone who has a bank account or mortgage or credit card gets those privacy statements in the mail that most people throw away without reading and it's the same kind of stuff. Yeah, they have data, it gets used and shared for various purposed, not saying it's all benevolent but there's a big difference between and selling personal information to 3rd parties for direct profit. If Microsoft is doing that it's not in these well reviewed documents.
 

Mazzspeed

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The regkey change works. Monitoring it and resetting it via a script in the background works.
No outdated information, works for extended periods of time. This key has been in use since XP at least, so it is pretty reliable to say the least.

The manual network configuration is doable nevertheless. If that is what you want, then this is how to do it.
The "spyware" is also removable from the installer before install.

So, there are options for an IT pro.
This has always been the same with every feature which was labeled shitty by some that was released with any Windows version. Only the worthy/popular ones got a 3rd party app for carrying them out.
All these workarounds just to get the operating system to do what I want it to do on my PC! Honestly, I found it easier to dump the operating system for one that respects me as the user. In relation to setting up a hardware firewall to block communications to Microsoft, once again, to much mucking around and the destination addresses have a nasty habit of changing all the time - Not really a practical solution.

In relation to removing the Connected User Experience from Windows 10 Home and Professional before install, I doubt that's possible. Perhaps under Enterprise, but I doubt it's possible under 10 Home and Professional.
 

heatlesssun

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Your needs do not in any way reflect the needs of everyone.
Never said they did but they obviously reflect the needs of a great many. My office cube neighbor just got his new Windows 10 laptop today, his three year cycle had just ended. All the new machines coming into the bank, Windows 10 only unless you get a waiver pointing out a critical business need.

How about you prove that Windows 10 is not spying?
That's not how most legal systems work. The state can't ask you to prove you didn't murder someone, it's up to the state to prove that you did. People can make all the baseless claims they want. If one doesn't like Microsoft, hates their business practices, thinks they are just lying about everything, etc. and wants things to change it's going proof that the law and markets can see clearly and not just anonymous posts that can claim anything they want.

Your argument is a cop out. An encrypted file stored on your PC in a folder invisible to the OS with permissions set so you cannot access it ready to be sent to MS certainly sounds like there's something there MS don't want the user seeing.
In the 1803 there's a tool that shows all the JSON telemetry data, nothing is hidden.
 

Mazzspeed

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Never said they did but they obviously reflect the needs of a great many. My office cube neighbor just got his new Windows 10 laptop today, his three year cycle had just ended. All the new machines coming into the bank, Windows 10 only unless you get a waiver pointing out a critical business need.
And, once again, I don't care. How is this relevant to everyone?

That's not how most legal systems work. The state can't ask you to prove you didn't murder someone, it's up to the state to prove that you did. People can make all the baseless claims they want. If one doesn't like Microsoft, hates their business practices, thinks they are just lying about everything, etc. and wants things to change it's going proof that the law and markets can see clearly and not just anonymous posts that can claim anything they want.
Once again, a cop out.

There is an encrypted file stored on your PC right now with permissions set so you cannot access it by any simple means in a folder invisible to the operating system ready to be sent to Microsoft, as a realist that sounds incredibly suspicious to me. If you want to argue that MS are not sending personal data as 'security information' than prove to everyone this is the case. This is HOCP, not the legal system.

In the 1803 there's a tool that shows all the JSON telemetry data, nothing is hidden.
So why isn't there an option to simply opt out of telemetry data? Is that tool displaying all telemetry data in those files? If there's a tool to view 'all' the data in those files, why are they encrypted in the first place?
 

DPI

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In the 1803 there's a tool that shows all the JSON telemetry data, nothing is hidden.
Nope. It's only partial - MS's cherrypicked data points. There are thousands more unaccounted for and undocumented, and MS is keeping them that way.

Of course, going around in autistic circles "you can't prove it, you can't see inside their encrypted data so there's no smoking gun" is little more than ironic shitposting at this point, and ultimately besides the point. They can collect all the personally identifiable data they want, just give people an opt out.

If there was no profit motive to the data collection and it was simply to "make Windows 10 better" then they wouldn't be so adamant about not providing an opt out - there'd be more than enough data from hundreds of millions of PCs that a small fraction of users turning it off wouldn't matter.

But of course there's a profit motive. And its so big that they'd rather keep hemorrhaging marketshare and keep their heels dug in waiting out the Windows 7/8 clingers for a decade than give them a big reason to convert to 10 sooner.
 
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heatlesssun

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And, once again, I don't care. How is this relevant to everyone?
Huh? Nothing is relvaent to everyone. Windows how is extremely relavant to folks that depend on PCs where there are no alternatives to what is supports.

Once again, a cop out.
So proof and legal system that puts the burden of proof of the accuser is a cop out? How in the hell do you prove a negative in this case? If Microsoft is selling personal data it would be far easier to find a single example anyway.


There is an encrypted file stored on your PC right now with permissions set so you cannot access it by any simple means in a folder invisible to the operating system ready to be sent to Microsoft, as a realist that sounds incredibly suspicious to me. If you want to argue that MS are not sending personal data as 'security information' than prove to everyone this is the case. This is HOCP, not the legal system.


So why isn't there an option to simply opt out of telemetry data? Is that tool displaying all telemetry data in those files? If there's a tool to view 'all' the data in those files, why are they encrypted in the first place?
And there is a tool in Store what works with 1803 and above that shows the telemetry: https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-microsoft-rolls-out-new-privacy-tools-for-telemetry-data/

Good grief, now you're arguing what's been out there plain as day for months?
 

heatlesssun

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Wrong. It's only partial - MS's cherrypicked data points. There are thousands more unaccounted for and undocumented, behind the curtain.
Considering how extensive and detailed what I've seen in the tool reports that makes no sense. Again, proof?
 

trparky

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Of course, going around in autistic circles "you can't prove it, you can't see inside their encrypted data so there's no smoking gun" is little more than ironic shitposting at this point, and ultimately besides the point. They can collect all the personally identifiable data they want, just give people an opt out.
Like I said before, good luck bringing this before a lawyer and judge. Hell, the judge may just send you to jail just for wasting his time.
 

Delicieuxz

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Newsflash!!! This kind of stuff has been going on for the last fifty years! It's called marketing. If you haven't heard about it you must have been living under a rock since the early 1980s. This has been going on for years man, decades even. This isn't a new concept by any stretch of the imagination.
You're deflecting away from the subject - something that heatlesssun does frequently, as well. That your response depends on disingenuous topic shifting shows that your defence of Microsoft's harvesting and selling of personal data doesn't stand up when looked at closely.

Marketing is sending information to potential customers, and not the taking of personal data from people's private property without their permission. That's called theft. Microsoft having personal data that they took from people's personally-owned OSes is also not marketing. Microsoft sells that personal data to other companies so that they can use it for marketing purposes, but Microsoft taking and possessing that personal data is not marketing.


As any company should do. If there is a warrant the company being served has the legal obligation to hand over said associated data and if they disobey said warrant they would be held in contempt of court and the executives could be imprisoned themselves. Again, not a new concept by any means.
You've failed to grasp the point, which is that, logically, not all the data Microsoft shares is anonymous and aggregated - showing that Microsoft's suggestion that some of the data they share is aggregated is only a suggestion of some hypothetical situations and not a pledge that it is all anonymous or a comment on the extent of the way that Microsoft shares data.


I'm going to poke some holes in this.
Judging by your above-quoted remarks, I'm doubtful of that.


Big fucking deal. As long as said data doesn't contain actual personal and personally identifiable data, it is just that... reports for analysis and research. Again, this shit's been going on since the early 1980s man. Get over it man, we've been the subject of this kind of shit for years.
Once again, you're trying to shift the topic from the harvesting, possession, and selling of personal data to simply the usage of it once other companies have it in their hands after buying it from Microsoft.

And It's not for you to decide whether the data Microsoft shares is acceptable or not based on whether it is personally-identifiable. That data was generated by people's machines, software, activity, electricity, time, etc, and it is being used to profit Microsoft at the expense of Windows owners. That is unjust enrichment.

Also, there is nothing indicating that all data sold by Microsoft to other companies and groups is anonymous.


Oh... like nVidia knowing about why their drivers are suddenly causing systems world wide to spontaneously BSOD? That would be a perfectly valid business reason and one that I would be very damn happy that Microsoft shared said data with nVidia so as to better allow them to fix their shit.
What you personally would like doesn't overrule what everybody else would like regarding having control over their own data. In an environment where people have control over their data, if you would like to share it, then that is your choice and you can do so. And people who do not wish to share it can be sure that theirs is not shared.


Again... as long as it doesn't contain personally identifiable data there is not a damn thing any judge or lawyer can do about it. Now if it actually named you, personally, in said data... then there would be a problem and the result of that would be a lawsuit so fucking big it would be able to eclipse the sun.
Again, regardless of whether the data is personally-identifiable or not, it is a problem that Microsoft has taken it in the first place from people's personally-owned OSes and that Microsoft is profiting off of it and the expense of the people who the data belongs to - which is unjust enrichment. And, also again, there is nothing indicating that all data shared is anonymous.
 
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heatlesssun

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Like I said before, good luck bringing this before a lawyer and judge. Hell, the judge may just send you to jail just for wasting his time.
Pretty hilarious. I guess we're shills by pointing out how basic legal processes work now?
 

heatlesssun

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You're deflecting away from the subject - something that heatlesssun does frequently, as well.
We're not deflecting. We're asking for proof, something with legal meaning and not a bunch of online conspiracy theories based on open documentation that's been examined by lawyers for years.

And hell let's say you're right. What exactly is supposed to happen from there? What are the consequences and steps you'd want out of you're saying?
 

trparky

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All of this is nothing more than supposition and hearsay. Until someone can find actual concrete proof with their fucking name specifically spelled out in said data there is nothing to talk about, nothing that a lawyer and judge will do anything about.
Again, whether the data is personally-identifiable or not, it is a problem that Microsoft has taken it in the first place from people's personally-owned OSes and that Microsoft is profiting off of it and the expense of the people who the data belongs to - which is unjust enrichment. And, also again, there is nothing indicating that all data shared is anonymous.
Let me ask you something. Do you have a bank account? Credit card? Amazon account? Netflix account? Shopper savings card at your local grocery store? Gym membership? Cable/Satellite TV? Internet Service Provider? Car loan? Mortgage? Have you recently paid a bill? Any bill, it doesn't matter what kind of bill.

I bet you're asking what all of that has to do with Microsoft. Simple. All of those companies aggregate and sell customer data and has been something that has been happening for decades. Companies sell data back and forth, this has been something that has been happening for years. And you want to know something about all of this? Lawyers have been over all of these kinds of data sharing agreements like flies on shit for the last fifty years. You want to know something else? It's all been approved of and sanctioned by lawyers and judges for years and has had more scrutiny than the US Constitution.
 

Delicieuxz

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We're not deflecting. We're asking for proof, something with legal meaning and not a bunch of online conspiracy theories based on open documentation that's been examined by lawyers for years.
No, you're asking for proof, despite being shown it.

trparky contested whether the meaning of the proof mattered - and I addressed those challenges.

And hell let's say you're right. What exactly is supposed to happen from there? What are the consequences and steps you'd want out of you're saying?
A mandated option to secure one's data and deny Microsoft from being able to collect and / or sell any data from a person's Windows OS - just like California has recently implemented. And acknowledgement of the fact that such control is a right of people and that Microsoft has no right to data from people's owned OSes. If they want to let Microsoft use their personally-owned data for Microsoft's profit, then that is an individual choice for people to make on their own without coercion from Microsoft.
 

Delicieuxz

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NO IT IS NOT PROOF!!! Not in the eyes of the LAW and that is ALL that matters here.
Microsoft saying that they share customer data via business reports and sale of assets with and to 3rd parties, researchers, OEMs, advertisers, etc, is certainly proof that Microsoft shares and sells customer data. It is literally Microsoft stating that they share and sell customer data. If you don't grasp that, then your English comprehension is very poor.

Now, why are you bringing up "the law" here, as if Microsoft selling customer data would be against the law as it currently stands? It will be in California come 2020, and hopefully it will be for the rest of the world too, eventually (the sooner the better).
 

heatlesssun

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Microsoft saying that they share customer data via business reports and sale of assets with and to 3rd parties, researchers, OEMs, advertisers, etc, is certainly proof that Microsoft shares and sells customer data.
Shares data is one thing, everyone with personal data has to make these statements. SELLING IT is another matter.
 

trparky

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Any lawyer will blow holes in your argument the size of Texas. That's why this issue hasn't been brought out of the shadows and into the light, because there's nothing to be talked about. The lawyers have all been over it, forwards and backwards, side to side, front to back, etc. and it all been legally approved of.
Microsoft saying that they share customer data via business reports and sale of assets with and to 3rd parties, researchers, OEMs, advertisers, etc, is certainly proof that Microsoft shares and sells customer data. It is literally Microsoft stating that they share and sell customer data. If you don't grasp that, then your English comprehension is very poor.
You don't seem to grasp the concept of "business reports". If you worked inside a company, an actual company, you would know that these so called "business reports" are just that... business reports. They represent data from all over the place, aggregated data. In other words, no personally identifiable data. They are nothing more than summary reports that contains data from hundreds, if not thousands of data points that are brought together for a report that's no more than 100 or so pages long.
 

Delicieuxz

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I swear to God, I feel like I'm in the middle of a bad X-Files episode here.
Why - do people in bad X-Files episodes lack reading comprehension, too?

Microsoft explicitly states that they share and sell customer data. Microsoft stating that they do is proof that Microsoft does.

If what you call proof were really that then some smart and expensive lawyers would be using it to sue the bejesus out of Microsoft.
Why do you think they would - As if Microsoft selling customer data would be against the law as it currently stands? It will be in California come 2020, and hopefully it will be for the rest of the world too, eventually (the sooner the better).

Is Twitter currently being sued for selling user data? Is Facebook? Is Google? Where do you get your naive ideas about law and why do you spout them with such certainty?

Shares data is one thing, everyone with personal data has to make these statements. SELLING IT is another matter.
Microsoft explicitly states that they sell customer data: "We also might disclose data as part of a corporate transaction such as... a sale of assets".

Do you not know that "selling" and "sale refer to the same action where "assets" (such as data) are given in exchange for money?
 

trparky

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California
Oh, you're going to talk about that fucked up state? The same very state that says that just about every damn thing made today can cause cancer? LOL The same very state that up until recently they had major electricity issues all because they didn't want to build new power plants? The same socialist state that's damn near going bankrupt? Again... LOL

I wouldn't be holding California in such high regard, that state is full of stupidity (except for Silicon Valley of course).
 

Delicieuxz

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Any lawyer will blow holes in your argument the size of Texas. That's why this issue hasn't been brought out of the shadows and into the light, because there's nothing to be talked about. The lawyers have all been over it, forwards and backwards, side to side, front to back, etc. and it all been legally approved of.
Why are you again deferring to the idea of a legal case when the subject has not been about the legality of Microsoft selling people's data? I haven't made a legal argument and I haven't argued that Microsoft selling people's data is currently illegal - but it will be post January 2020 in California unless people specifically choose to allow Microsoft to sell their data. Right now, it isn't a clear-cut legal matter that Microsoft is selling people's data.

Falling back on a sentiment of 'lawyers would be all over it' to try to refute what hasn't been a legal debate suggests to me that you don't know how and why law would engage with this matter.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of "business reports". If you worked inside a company, an actual company, you would know that these so called "business reports" are just that... business reports. They represent data from all over the place, aggregated data. In other words, no personally identifiable data. They are nothing more than summary reports that contains data from hundreds, if not thousands of data points that are brought together for a report that's no more than 100 or so pages long.
No. Rather, you You fail to discern the distinction between an internal business report and one shared with a 3rd party including researchers, advertisers, OEMs, LEOs. You also ignore that customer data sold as a corporate transaction is customer data that is sold.
 

heatlesssun

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Microsoft explicitly states that they sell customer data: "We also might disclose data as part of a corporate transaction such as... a sale of assets".
This same language is in every privacy statement that comes a bank, mortgage company, credit card company, etc. because guess what. Companies buy other companies or parts of them.
 

Delicieuxz

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This same language is in every privacy statement that comes a bank, mortgage company, credit card company, etc. because guess what. Companies buy other companies or parts of them.
The data itself is an asset. And to sell it, whether it is anonymised or aggregated or not, is a sale of assets.
 

heatlesssun

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The data itself is an asset. And to sell it, whether it is anonymised or aggregated or not, it is a sale of assets.
I've worked in the IT financial industry for 25 years, yeah our data is an asset. We're required by law to send out the same language about data, hell we have a shit load more personal info than they do, at least of the detailed financial variety.
 

Delicieuxz

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Because... in the real world THAT'S ALL THAT FUCKING MATTERS!!!
That isn't all that matters. If that were the case, then things that are not illegal would never become illegal, because they weren't already illegal in the first place. But GDPR and California's new legislation mandating personal control over one's data and the choice to deny companies from selling it shows that the law is not all that matters and that new laws arise when something matters but isn't being regarded.

Also, you've again drifted from the topic of whether Microsoft sells customer data to whether it matters due to law if Microsoft sells customer data.

I've worked in the IT financial industry for 25 years, yeah our data is an asset. We're required by law to send out the same language about data, hell we have a shit load more personal info than they do, at least of the financial variety.
Then you know that when Microsoft states that they disclose customer data in a sale of assets, that statement of Microsoft's covers all situations where Microsoft would sell customer data for profit.
 
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trparky

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Delicieuxz, you sound like one of those snowflakes that are upset that they didn't get their way. Get over it. Now whether you like it or not, the LAW is the LAW; that's how the adult world works.
 

Delicieuxz

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Delicieuxz, you sound like one of those snowflakes that are upset that they didn't get their way. Get over it.
You sound as though you are projecting. Your arguments have been shown to be fallacious, your claims false, your direction of argument constantly shifting. Each time you've been faced with facts, you've said something random that is neither here nor there to the discussed topic. You clearly really don't like being shown to be wrong and aren't coping with it very well.

Now whether you like it or not, the LAW is the LAW; that's how the adult world works.
What it this even supposed to mean in the context of this discussion? Which law are appealing to that you think is being contested? I'm not aware of anybody bringing one up.

You resemble the guy in Anchorman just yelling "LOUD NOISES" while not having a clue what it's supposed to mean.
 

SmokeRngs

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I'm not claiming anything. It's you and others that are saying that Microsoft is lying in their ToS and doing something at best highly unethical in selling personally identifiable data. If you want Microsoft to pay some penalty for what you are claiming you must provide PROOF. Otherwise it's just a conspiracy theory.
Bullshit. You keep denying that MS doesn't sell data. You keep claiming that MS only uses the spying internally to make its products better. It's up to you to provide that proof. You state these things as facts and it's up to you to prove it's true.

You've technically got a point there. If you were to take any of the stuff that's being talked about in this thread to a lawyer and said to that lawyer that Microsoft must be doing this stuff because well... just because, that lawyer would laugh you out of the room. After he/she got up off the floor after a bit of hyperventilating the lawyer would tell you to get concrete proof and then the lawsuit could be filed.
You mean like the hearsay that MS only uses the spying data for improving products.
 

Mazzspeed

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Huh? Nothing is relvaent to everyone. Windows how is extremely relavant to folks that depend on PCs where there are no alternatives to what is supports.
This example does not, in any way, relate to everyone in the same way that your needs do not relate to everyone.

How can this be so hard to understand? It's mindblowing.
 

jtm55

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Hi All

This going back in forth is getting folk nowhere. Why not agree to disagree and call it a day.
 

Mazzspeed

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I've worked in the IT financial industry for 25 years, yeah our data is an asset.
I honestly don't believe it's a very good idea to compare Microsoft with the banking industry. One of the most corrupt industries in existence, responsible for the GFC, despite the fact that you're no doubt going to somehow refute that claim. ;)
 

heatlesssun

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Then you know that when Microsoft states that they disclose customer data in a sale of assets, that statement of Microsoft's covers all situations where Microsoft would sell customer data for profit.
So your proof that Microsoft is selling data is something that applies to just about every company on planet Earth?
 

Delicieuxz

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This example does not, in any way, relate to everyone in the same way that your needs do not relate to everyone.

How can this be so hard to understand? It's mindblowing.
They (heatle and trparky) know that they're wrong, and they're trying to spin everybody around in circles and bluff them out until people stop responding to them so that they can leave a last assertive post in the thread appearing to have it look like an accepted conclusion.

Those two can babble substance-less BS all day long to shill for Microsoft.

So your proof that Microsoft is selling data is something that applies to just about every company on planet Earth?
It applies to companies that sell data. Banks sell data. Credit Card companies sell data.
 

heatlesssun

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I honestly don't believe it's a very good idea to compare Microsoft with the banking industry. One of the most corrupt industries in existence, responsible for the GFC, despite the fact that you're no doubt going to somehow refute that claim. ;)
Companies get greedy, banks are a good example of that, it's well documented.
 

Mazzspeed

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So your proof that Microsoft is selling data is something that applies to just about every company on planet Earth?
In the case of default out of the box privacy settings under Windows 10 I'm pretty sure there's targeted advertising on the lock screen, wouldn't that be evidence of MS selling user data?

Companies get greedy, banks are a good example of that, it's well documented.
And MS are most definitely no different in this regard. Although I do admit they are trying to give the impression of cleaning up their act a little in the last few years.
 

heatlesssun

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It applies to companies that sell data. Banks sell data. Credit Card companies sell data.
It applies to any company what has data. From banks to hospitals to mom pop stores. When you sell a business the buyer is going to want any and all data that you have.
 
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