Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well without standards, we wouldn't get things done full stop. As to your example, I created a document in Word 2016, added some text, highlighted the text, saved the document as a MS docx file (as opposed to the strict standard), transferred the file to the Linux host and opened the file under Libre Office 6.0.6.2 and the text displayed perfectly.

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  2. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Here's another example. Opened a new document in Word, added a highlighted image, added text, formatted the image so the image was under the text and saved the image as a docx file. Transfered the file to the host machine, opened the exact same file in Libre Office, the file opens perfectly with the image under the text - Didn't touch a thing.

    I've even tried drawing an image under Word, adding text over the image and opening the image under Libre Office and I still encounter absolutely no issues.

    My best guess, judging by the image you have used, is that you have used ink to draw that image freehand in Word and Libre Office doesn't work well regarding ink - Should bother all 10% of the population that use ink under Word. But try as I may I cannot replicate the problem outside of a Surface running Microsoft Office with ink capability, so your comment about issues not being limited to ink don't really stand to reason and don't in any way highlight an issue with Libre Office itself and standards that exist with good reason. :rolleyes:

    Edit: Just tested using Word on my Android device and that's exactly what you've done. You wrote text in Word and then scribbled over the text using a 'highlighter' that's obviously a feature only present in Word. When you go to open the document under Libre Office, Libre Office formats the image exactly as you've drawn it - Directly over the text! Your example has proven that Libre Office does not support Microsoft's implementation of a 'highlighter' when using ink only, not really a great example of docx compatibility. In fact, not an example of docx compatibility at all! At least I've used Word under Android for the first time ever.

    The bulk of the population can do without Microsoft Office, the fact is most don't even know alternatives exist. I hate activation, I've already activated MS Office and now it's asking me to do it again. :mad:

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    The Dell XPS series sell very well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  3. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    And that was my point, Libre Offce and Microsoft Office are not 100% functionally compatible. Office has a lot of drawing, ink and touch support not in Libre and while you might think that's a big deal there a lot of 2 in 1 devices out there now and the number is only growing.

    But none of that really matters. What matters is what people see and who it works and if people had documents full of blotches in Writer where everything was fine in Word, the explanations are meaningless. One works, the other doesn't. That's all that matters in the real world to real people.

    Maybe not. Until someone goes and say buys a convertible XPS 13, installed Libre on it and there's no touch support. Of course there are other options besides Libre, WPS has touch support.
     
  4. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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  5. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I looked at my computer, I see no ads. So, Mcdonalds, Burger King and Walmart are advertising on your computer?
     
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  6. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Countered with what? I see no ads on any of my computers.
     
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  7. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    I would disagree with this. Most of the "simplistic usage" has now shifted to smartphones (and to a smaller extent, tablets) for a lot of people. Perhaps my sample size is just skewed, but most people I know only use computers for entertainment (mostly games) and productivity. Linux is not "out of box" simple for entertainment, nor is it a go-to for productivity, in part to Microsoft's years of leading the office suite sector.
     
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  8. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    Agree with your sentiment in the bolded statement, disagree with your phrasing. I would say that is all that matters to "simple people", or people who expect it to work, and if it does not on the first try, abandon it/consider it as "broken". Are there some people who will troubleshoot, and try different things to try to get things working? yes. I would say that is sadly the minority. Heck, that is the primary selling point for Apple, "It just works". It seems that a lot of people today do not want to have to think.
     
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  9. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ah, the mythical 2in1 fallback when all else fails.

    You mean, one sticks to standards and the other doesn't. And let's not kid ourselves, 99% of Word users would find WordPad adequate, let alone Libre or WPS.
     
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  10. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    You said Windows 10 isn't an advertising platform. He sent a direct link to Microsoft's website claiming that it is. Now you're pretending to be confused because you've turned off ads on your system. You made an indefensible point, so now you're trying to change the topic. This is intentional obfuscation. This is why people accuse you of being a shill.

    It would be like this:

    Person 1: The sky isn't blue.
    Person 2: (posts a picture of the sky, showing it's blue)
    Person 1: What are you talking about? My curtains are drawn, so I don't get sunburned.

    Keep on trolling.
     
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  11. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_14?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=windows+2+in+1+tablet&sprefix=windows+2+in+1,aps,327&crid=3PVCRSYD3CS6U&rh=i:aps,k:windows+2+in+1+tablet

    Sure, the fastest growing PC form factor is "mythical".

    Have you ever seen those standards docs? Thousands of pages, how would you possibly know what is "standard" without careful review of those docs?
     
  12. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    I would actually agree with you. I guess the benefit of being the Industry Standard is that you can set your own rules. Also, that you become the "default choice" because your workplace uses it, or your school, etc.
    I really would like to use Linux more, but between spotty game compatibility and the occasional issue getting drivers working for some hardware, i end up using my windows desktop. The problem comes down to, yes i could boot up the Linux system and do what I want to do right now, but then if i decide i want to do something else, i would have to switch over to the other computer anyhow. I may as well do it all on the one.
    Even Steam has seemed to give up with their push for Linux gaming.
     
  13. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    FTFY
     
  14. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    Sad, but seemingly true.
     
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I get what you're saying but the one reason why I used this example is because it's such easy and basic thing pretty useful to focus attention that's easy to do with a mouse or pen. From a user perspective there's it's drop dead simple and works great in Word.

    If someone started seeing colored blotches instead of the highlights, sure some would look into but most people would probably look at it and say Libre was broken. There's no why in hell even the most savvy person is going to research the like 5k pages of the OOXML spec to see who is right on the standard.
     
  16. Kardonxt

    Kardonxt 2[H]4U

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    At this point I would be happy if they just added an option to select LTSB in all versions (even if it's hidden and not selected by default).

    I think that would be enough for me to accept having practically no control over updates.
     
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  17. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I do not turn off anything on any computer I am using.

    False accusations will get you no where.
     
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  18. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Many with basic needs to need a conventional desktop PC. A phone, tablet of Chromebook will do fine and one can use online apps like Google Drive or Office Online for basic automation work.

    I think this is one of the effects of the "post-PC" era. Yes, many have moved away from conventional PCs but those who remain are increasingly power users who do need or want the power and apps for a traditional PC.
     
  19. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    In all seriousness what is that link supposed to demonstrate/prove? I must be missing something because all I see are a bunch of $100 chinese craplets with floppy keyboards and awful ratings.

    No offense but the weird obsession with the idea that windows10 "2 in 1's" are somehow taking the world by storm is hard to take seriously since its not grounded in any apparent reality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  20. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Considering the number of 2 in 1 devices that OEMs are making today, they must be doing pretty well:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...sts-its-strongest-growth-in-6-years/37062679/.

    The market for 2 in 1s is obviously growing. Remember, they've been around for over 15 years since the Windows XP Tablet PC Edition days.
     
  21. Frobozz

    Frobozz [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't care to attack or defend 2 in 1s either way, but this exchange reminded me of the Netbook race to the bottom craze.

    Though to be fair, I still use my Dell mini 9 on occasion.
     
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  22. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm happy for you, however that wasn't my point, the point you so obviously feel the need to attack. My point was highlighting how Microsoft manipulate standards that exist to eliminate cross platform compatibility issues and Microsoft's use of a scribbly 'highlighter' is not in any way part of the standard - It's a feature available to Word users under touch enabled devices. Some actually prefer alternate operating systems as alternate operating systems aren't focused on touch enabled devices, however Libre Office is rendering the highlight exactly as created, as an image scribbled over text.

    If you want to scribble on the screen, use MS Office. If you want the best compatibility regarding standards use an alternative such as Libre Office that isn't manipulated by corporate greed. If you want to spend money on a product that's marketed on being the most compatible suite due to manipulation of the very standards that exist to ensure cross platform compatibility use MS Office. The fact remains that based on personal experience the bulk of PC users could make use of MS Office alternatives just fine in their daily lives, I know many that do and I've yet to hear any complaints.

    2 in 1 devices are laptops with touch screens, most buy them to use as a laptop as they are used far more efficiently with a physical keyboard and quite often an attached mouse. Most people buy laptops to use as a desktop as they are smaller and tidier than bulky desktop systems, most laptops never leave the confines of the house. It is for this reason that the bulk of users do not care for touch application and it is for this reason that it's implementation should be optional upon install under Windows 10.

    Except unlike the XP days 2 in 1's are currently replacing conventional laptops, so naturally the number of 2 in 1 devices and therefore sales of 2 in 1 devices is growing. Your argument is like saying sales of white cars are low, so lets make all cars white so sales of white cars increase! A lack of options doesn't in any way indicate that's what the consumer wants.

    As I've been claiming, muscling your way around standards that exist with good reason for the broader community is manipulative and creates a scenario where the most compatible office suite is not the one marketed as being the most compatible office suite. However, this idea that Libre Office lacks compatibility with Word is being vastly exaggerated by a certain Microsoft fanatic. I use Libre Office every day and never have a problem, I even tried to duplicate issues in my screenshots and didn't encounter any problem where a certain Microsoft feature set was not used. Individual mileage may vary, but not to the extent exaggerated by some.

    As far as gaming is concerned, use what works best for you. But I see no evidence that Valve is giving up on Linux.

    Isn't this a thread on the Windows 10 updater and it's poor implementation? ;)
     
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  23. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    There is a market for small productivity PCs but making good ones has always been a challenge. Got the Surface Go last week, this thing is actually quite remarkable. It's right at the Edge of a 1.75 lbs. computer (including the Type Cover and pen) of being all the computer many people that need above what phones and mobile OS tablet can provide.
     
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  24. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Again the standards are just part of it. There's nothing in file format standards that define features like basic touch capability, capability that even Chrome has on Windows and Linux.



    We're talking about many thousands of pages of documented standards. How in the hell do you or anyone for that matter know what's best in supporting that kind of complexity?


    You don't need a keyboard and mouse attached to a device to watch Netflix or draw in Photoshop or any of a ton of creativity apps for these devices now.



    For people that sit in front of computer for a living this isn't true. And that's a lot of folks these days.

    Except a lot of these apps are designed to work across input types. The Netflix works fine with a mouse and keyboard and touch. It's not either or but both and.



    But 2 in 1s were replacing conventional laptops back in the XP backs, indeed the market all but died before Windows 8.

    It's not standards, it's functionality. There's not reason for Libre Office not to have touch capability and it has not a damned thing to do with standards. Blaming lack of implementation on standards is nonsense. I'm not saying standards aren't an issue but not the main one that causes incompatibility issues.

    So everyone uses who uses Microsoft Office is like you and would never have a problem dealing with Libre Office. You can slam me all you want but even in a place like this MS Office is often consider vastly superior to Libre Office.

    Valve doesn't really matter in this. It's up to game developers and if it's worth their time to support Linux.

    Sure, because if it were a thread about something positive about Windows no one would dare trash it. This is just the same crowd in the same place having the same decades old debate over Windows. Nothing new.:D
     
  25. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There is a positive about windows. It plays my games. Lucky it can do that and no other OS, or it would be out the window.

    The updating breaking things or fixing unwanted stuff is on a long list of problems.
     
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  26. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    And once again we're at the point where we're just rehashing points that have already been discussed and refuted on my part. Not interested in going over and over prior discussion if you're incapable of backing off with the Windows obsession.

    What is interesting is how Microsoft's biggest source if income is now the cloud and a major part of MCSA certification is based around Linux:

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/learning/mcsa-linux-azure-certification.aspx
     
  27. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    updates works fine for the systems I have here. only consistent problem ive had with 10 is this system im on keeps losing sync with the time server and my time gets stuck. no ads either.
     
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  28. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Fair enough. However the standards that you are referring to are around 6,000 pages long. There's no way in hell you know if any single incompatibility is caused by Microsoft not following a standard.

    Linux on servers is a COMPLETELY different thing compared to the client desktop. No one here challenges that Linux is great for that purpose along with embedded devices, phones, etc.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's not that complicated. You get folks that want to make all kinds of crazy ass judgements or seem to have way more telemetry data than Microsoft and seem to know EXACTLY what everyone is doing with their PCs.

    Most people in thread like this who build their desktops are going to install the client OS that makes sense for that system. Clearly it makes zero sense to install a Linux distro on something like my sig rig. Regardless of bad Windows updates, no desktop Linux distro is going to support the hardware. That's just obvious reality. But beyond gaming it supports everything else I need so, yeah. I'm using what works for me and supports the hardware and software. When comes to pre-built devices, I'm into 2 in 1s and Linux is pretty pointless there. Conventional laptops, sure, way more viable.

    It's got nothing to do with loving Windows, it's about the hardware and software that it supports. That's it, plain and simply and the choices tend to be clear unless you have the most basic needs where one could possibly get away with a phone.
     
  30. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Updating is one thing, but changing settings that the user has set is another.

    Also Linux works fine with software and hardware, just not all. Game software is the Achilles heel. If that can be overcome, I would dump it in a flash.
     
  31. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    What am I supposed to see here?

    Their own products brake each other's compatibility between versions, let alone between other vendors. And if other programs read each other's files fine, but Word causes problems for everyone else...
     
  32. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Fine, for some reason, you don't get any ads on Windows, despite doing nothing to prevent that according to your words. That certainly runs contrary to my experience, where I saw ads as soon as I clicked on the start menu on a fresh install (one that was offline no less), but fine, let's say that's true (I imagine we just have different definitions as to what constitutes an ad).

    You took it a step further saying Windows 10 is not an advertising platform. So you were linked this:

    https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ad-monetization-platform

    Amazingly, you're still trying to defend what you said, or least deflect to a similar topic, so people don't dwell on how fallacious a statement that is. This is Emperor's New Clothes level of denial, except in this case, the Emperor himself is saying he's naked also. I say denial loosely however, since I imagine you're just pushing a narrative per your instructions and you yourself don't even believe what you're saying. Feel free to prove me wrong though. Explain what you meant by this statement when Microsoft itself calls it an advertising platform:

     
  33. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    Again, what are these links suppose to demonstrate exactly? Increase from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase. Also, There are more 2-in-1s because there can be, not because there is a huge demand for touch enabled notebooks. Thirdly, of those relative few that own one, how many do you think use the touch interface for Word?
     
  34. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Understood and all I can say that shouldn't happen. It's not something I've seen a lot, I have had older Windows builds not reinstall certain apps after a major build release. Those issues did get resolved for me. Again, not saying it's not a problem.

    It's more than games though. If a PC user doesn't want or need hardware above a conventional desktop or standard clamshell laptop, spends most of his time in a web browser, can use something like Libre Office, etc., might like to game and doesn't necessarily care which game or the game happens to work under Linux, they could be golden with a desktop Linux distro.

    I get Windows 10 updates and settings can be difficult. If those issues are causing significant problems with one using their device then of course! I wouldn't be using Windows 10 if it were constantly causing tons of time consuming issues to fix, this shit costs too much and I depend on it too much to have constant and difficult to resolve issues.

    No one here is shill. They are just using the stuff that works for them. Trying to figure out how a billion people use PCs isn't even anything I want to get into. But yeah, playing Windows only games at home, using Windows only productivity in the office, that's common stuff. Automatically determining that it's only ignorance that keeps people on Windows is beyond arrogant though. It's way more nuanced than that.
     
  35. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Incompatibilities between versions of Office since 2007 is almost always because of new features.
     
  36. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    A lot. People read content from touch devices constantly now.

    The way I've seen it for a long time, well before Windows 10 or 8 or even modern mobile devices, not everything someone wants to do requires a mouse and keyboard and they might not even be conducive to the activity. Keyboards were designed to input text and pointing devices to navigate a GUI. Tasks that involve math, science or art don't necessarily align with that nor consumptive tasks like reading or watching a movie.

    So that's why I think 2 in 1s make sense, specially ones that can be true tablets form factor wise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  37. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I think he means using it for writing, not just reading. Reading is easy on a tablet or even phone.
     
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  38. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    That's why they call them 2 in 1s. They can be extremely flexible. One minute you can be using a keyboard and mouse typing up a presentation, the next reading that presentation like off a clipboard or whatever.

    The idea is obviously becoming a big deal. Touch and pen support in devices that can connect to keyboards on the go are made by everyone now. Something that can be productive and consumptive when needed. That's what I'm really digging about this Surface Go and there's been a lot of ink on this subject. It's super portable but can be productive and weight no more than an iPad if you don't need the keyboard. So type up whatever and then read it on the go or on the couch.

    I get than many how don't agree with me on the subject of Windows 10 won't get it, but it is the kind of device that one tends to expect to work just like a Windows laptop, and it's very good at that with it's constraints, but then can be used at least some of the time without the Type Cover. Touch scrolling through web pages (Chrome and FF work for that on Windows and Linux), PDFs, Office docs, text documents, that tends to work reasonably well.

    Libre Office just has no concept of such a basic thing that is supported on millions of devices now, yes even devices that can run Linux and support touch.
     
  39. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I would not try to do much on a tablet or phone besides texting or answering in a forum.
    Reading, no problem.