Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

tetris42

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MS refuses to wake up and play their strengths on the desktop/business OS market and move into the supposed promise land of cloud computing. They want to control it all and make it all software as a service. No creativity on the UI front and as usual none on the software/hardware front. They've gotta follow the hype train from high to low. It will lead to big failure instead of just failure on the phones, games live, windows RT etc..
I'd say the only flaw in your argument is that if there's not a realistic alternative, they're free to keep on failing again and again, but they'll keep making money because for many markets, there's nowhere else to go. To play devil's advocate, I've heard the "MS is going to fail because x,y,z" a LONG time. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not seeing the scenario where they have to pay the price for their actions, particularly on the desktop.
 

heatlesssun

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I'm honestly not sure what your point is in the first part, sorry. As for Chromebooks, yes, those never had any control either, however I kind of dismissed them since those were never intended for serious work either.

This has nothing to do with Microsoft "listening", they don't give a shit. As for others not removing final control of your system, MacOS, Linux, and Windows have decades-long history of not doing that, hence why there's no historical precedent for what Windows 10 does, EXCEPT Chromebooks, so yeah, you've got me there. You are making a compelling argument Windows 10 are just following Chromebooks' lead. I wouldn't want them for a system I depended on either.
In the consumer space who the hell wants to deal with release notes for OS updates? Just update and go. Simple and reliable. Not saying that Windows 10 is there but this idea that in the consumer space the average person is just obsessed with each and every OS update is just not the reality of it.
 

tetris42

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In the consumer space who the hell wants to deal with release notes for OS updates? Just update and go. Simple and reliable. Not saying that Windows 10 is there but this idea that in the consumer space the average person is just obsessed with each and every OS update is just not the reality of it.
Good thing I was never arguing that huh?

tetris42 said:
I don't expect the layman to understand
tetris42 said:
The average person doesn't realize what they're losing.
tetris42 said:
Make automatic updating the default option
tetris42 said:
The more casually you use your computer, the less of an issue it probably is.
 

heatlesssun

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I'd say the only flaw in your argument is that if there's not a realistic alternative, they're free to keep on failing again and again, but they'll keep making money because for many markets, there's nowhere else to go. To play devil's advocate, I've heard the "MS is going to fail because x,y,z" a LONG time. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not seeing the scenario where they have to pay the price for their actions, particularly on the desktop.
Things do change though, especially in technology. Who is really foaming at the mouth for 1980s era desktop OSes? We have that option with desktop Linux for two decades now and it's gone nowhere in the mainstream.

Microsoft makes plenty of mistakes but not everything they do is a mistake. My three daily driver PCs are my sig rig, 15" Surface Book 2 512 GB and now a Surface Go 8 GB/128 GB. love These devices aren't perfect but they PACKED with functionality and to date no one has developed an OS that can power all of the capabilities of these devices and they still maintain decades of Win32 compatibility.
 

heatlesssun

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Good thing I was never arguing that huh?
So for the typical consumer user the way Windows 10 updates work is probably fine and that's all that I've been saying. It's no more the end of world now with Windows than it has been for two decades some of argued that it is the end of world with Windows.
 

heatlesssun

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Let them eat cake Windows 10 S.
The way S works, in a mode instead of a separate SKU, makes a lot of sense and at least in part addresses an advantage of Chromebooks, you don't get machines filled with all kind of Win32 junk that can do whatever it wants to a system. That said, disabling S mode was one of the first things I did when I got my Surface Go last week. It's literally instant, once you have the system fully updated which isn't so instant and doesn't even require a reboot.
 

tetris42

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So for the typical consumer user the way Windows 10 updates work is probably fine and that's all that I've been saying. It's no more the end of world now with Windows than it has been for two decades some of argued that it is the end of world with Windows.
Right, just for everyone who uses their PC for real work + projects.

Things do change though, especially in technology. Who is really foaming at the mouth for 1980s era desktop OSes? We have that option with desktop Linux for two decades now and it's gone nowhere in the mainstream.
Alright, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since sometimes you say reasonable things. This is just willful ignorance, nothing I can say can change that. Linux has gone nowhere because take your pick:

-Not paying money to be installed on almost every PC sold for decades (this is probably the main one).
-Lacking hardware support since Windows has been the entrenched standard
-Lacking software support since Windows has been the entrenched standard
-Only a fraction of games playable since Windows has been the entrenched standard
-Neverending in-fighting on standards
-Focusing too long on the CLI instead of making it simple to do everything could think of with a GUI and never touch it

Yet, you're somehow attributing being able to select which updates you want as the reason it's failed, thus making it an OS from the 80s (despite having automatic updates as an option), therefore it sucks. You're either hopeless, or paid to say things like this, that's all there is to it. I'm done.
 

clockdogg

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So for the typical consumer user the way Windows 10 updates work is probably fine and that's all that I've been saying. It's no more the end of world now with Windows than it has been for two decades some of argued that it is the end of world with Windows.
Sure...for the 'typical' consumer. What OUR untypical needs? In case you've missed the URL, you're posting at [H] - a place built on people building their own 'personal computer' systems - tweaking the OS to suit our specific needs. Until Win10, Microsoft allowed us to control our own systems. That era is over.

So...it is world-ending for many of us. Not you though...so lucky you, enjoy your Candy Crushed future.
 

heatlesssun

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Right, just for everyone who uses their PC for real work + projects.
I do, I work at home a lot, have to have the sig rig and Surface Book 2 super solid. And can't imagine 10 is as bad as you say as we're rolling it out to 200k+ devices globally.

Yet, you're somehow attributing being able to select which updates you want as the reason it's failed, thus making it an OS from the 80s, therefore it sucks. You're either hopeless, or paid to say things like this, that's all there is to it. I'm done.
No. What I am saying is that yes, Windows updates can be problematic. They simply can't be as problematic as you and some others are stating because I have no idea how ANYONE would be able to use it. You're essentially describing a 100% failure rate with Windows 10 updates.
 

heatlesssun

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So...it is world-ending for many of us. Not you though...so lucky you, enjoy your Candy Crushed future.
That's funny as hell. Enjoy my Candy Crush future. But only .00001% of PC users have VR setups. No one uses 2 in 1s! Who cares about digital ink? No one uses SLI!

The reason I'm on Windows 10 is because of the support for stuff that apparently no one uses. Candy Crush VR!
 
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trparky

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20 years of 100 different desktop Linux distros that if were half as good as the fans say we'd all be using now.
It comes mainly from the fact that (in my opinion) there's far too much infighting in the Linux community. Everybody and their uncles are too damn busy figuratively reinventing the wheel to get any real work done to bring about a standardized Linux-based OS that the entire industry can standardize and build everything upon. I hate to say this but it takes a company to do this, you can see this is what both Android and Apple MacOS/iOS is; both of which have their UNIX/Linux roots that have brought a UNIX-like OS to the masses. There needs to be leadership, core leadership to keep everyone on task but the Linux community lacks that kind of leadership and cohesiveness.
serious work
What's your definition of "serious work"?
Talk about failures, look at SteamOS and Steam machines. And how is the Windows Store a walled garden? Win32s and UWPs can be distributed by anyone.
What most people are afraid of is if Microsoft will make the Windows Store the only place to get programs for your system much like what Apple iOS is. Yes, I can understand this fear. Right now you can still load programs the old fashioned way but if, or rather when, that will change is what people are very much afraid of. I, myself, do not think that Microsoft is that stupid to do that. It would be the ultimate in shooting themselves in the foot. Hell, they wouldn't have a leg left if they did that.
 

tetris42

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I do, I work at home a lot, have to have the sig rig and Surface Book 2 super solid. And can't imagine 10 is as bad as you say as we're rolling it out to 200k+ devices globally.



No. What I am saying is that yes, Windows updates can be problematic. They simply can't be as problematic as you and some others are stating because I have no idea how ANYONE would be able to use it. You're essentially describing a 100% failure rate with Windows 10 updates.
Okay, I'll give it one more shot since I thought you were being deliberately obtuse, but you don't get what I'm saying:

No, I'm not saying it's that bad all the time. In fact, I think we're probably talking 1% or less of the time. That's irrelevant. The point is that's a vulnerability that didn't use to exist before and there's no escaping it if something goes wrong. I've seen updates for 7 screw up software I use and it never got addressed afterward, I avoid those and thus can continue using my system for years. In 10, I would have no such option, I would be fucked.

Put it another way:
The odds of me receiving an update that will screw things up for me are very low. Let's say less than 1%. On older version of Windows, if that happens, I can just undo the update or revert back to an image before the install and be fine. On Windows 10, if it were to push a bad update that causes me problems and never gets fixed, I'm fucked. There's no recourse. If I restore an old image, it will download the bad update again, then I'm screwed again. This is what loss of control means. It's not about devices screwing up all the time for most people. It's about being the unlucky minority who's using your computer in a lot of different ways, that Microsoft created a problem for you that simply isn't an issue for most users, so it doesn't get fixed and you can't undo it. Everyone else is fine, you're fucked, and you have no options. Even though the odds of that happening are low, all it takes is it happening one time for you to be screwed, it's like Russian Roulette with favorable odds. That's a scenario that never used to exist on the desktop. Now it does. That's too high a price to pay for me and goes against how I've always used computers.

trparky said:
What's your definition of "serious work"?
Anything where your software not running exactly the way it did the day before or interruptions to using your own system is a liability for you.
 

heatlesssun

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What most people are afraid of is if Microsoft will make the Windows Store the only place to get programs for your system much like what Apple iOS is. Yes, I can understand this fear. Right now you can still load programs the old fashioned way but if, or rather when, that will change is what people are very much afraid of. I, myself, do not think that Microsoft is that stupid to do that. It would be the ultimate in shooting themselves in the foot. Hell, they wouldn't have a leg left if they did that.
And why I don't think this is a problem anytime soon boils down to why people who choose to use Windows choose to do so. The ecosystem. Period. That's not just the #1 reason, it's the ONLY reason.

Look at all of the freak out over Fortnite not being in Google Play and how much backlash that's gotten. Curated stores are simply a requirement for a consumer facing OS these days. There are countless millions of Windows apps. Not everyone needs them but 1 billion PCs do. But sometimes a curated store makes sense. Just think if the Netflix app were just some random download that people installed. That's begging for trouble. Yeah, that kind of thing ABSOLUTELY should be in a curated store.
 

trparky

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Look at all of the freak out over Fortnite not being in Google Play and how much backlash that's gotten. Curated stores are simply a requirement for a consumer facing OS these days. There are countless millions of Windows apps. Not everyone needs them but 1 billion PCs do. But sometimes a curated store makes sense. Just think if the Netflix app were just some random download that people installed. That's begging for trouble. Yeah, that kind of thing ABSOLUTELY should be in a curated store.
The problem with that kind of thinking is that many users here (and at other sites like these forums) see the PC as the last bastion of free will in the the technology world. Yes, I do admit that there are a lot of people who absolutely need a curated app store of sorts to make sure that they remain safe however the PC is and should never be that. The PC is still seen as the pro-fessional device, a device that pros use and if and when that freedom is taken away is when that pro device is no longer a pro device.
 

heatlesssun

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I've seen updates for 7 screw up software I use and it never got addressed afterward, I avoid those and thus can continue using my system for years. In 10, I would have no such option, I would be fucked.
This is not at all a perfect solution. Those updates create dependencies over the years and skipping one can just a likely cause some other issue down the road.
 

trparky

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Instead of turning the PC into this walled garden what they should be doing is making a platform for just that. A separate system for the dummies that can't keep their shit safe and leave us geeks and pros alone with an OS where we can control it and do what we want, how we want, whenever we want.
 

heatlesssun

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The problem with that kind of thinking is that many users here (and at other sites like these forums) see the PC as the last bastion of free will in the the technology world. Yes, I do admit that there are a lot of people who absolutely need a curated app store of sorts to make sure that they remain safe however the PC is and should never be that. The PC is still seen as the pro-fessional device, a device that pros use and if and when that freedom is taken away is when that pro device is no longer a pro device.
A PC is a Swiss army knife that should be able to do whatever for whomever. That's the source of what a lot my disagreements stem with people around here. A PC should be able to work using on touch on a tablet. And it should be able to drive multiple 4k screens. And VR headsets. And work with a digital pen and have voice interaction.
 

heatlesssun

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Instead of turning the PC into this walled garden what they should be doing is making a platform for just that. A separate system for the dummies that can't keep their shit safe and leave us geeks and pros alone with an OS where we can control it and do what we want, how we want, whenever we want.
Which is exactly how it's always worked, thus Enterprise, LTSBs. But yeah, those aren't generally available to consumers.
 

trparky

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A PC is a Swiss army knife that should be able to do whatever for whomever. That's the source of what a lot my disagreements stem with people around here. A PC should be able to work using on touch on a tablet. And it should be able to drive multiple 4k screens. And VR headsets. And work with a digital pen and have voice interaction.
Yes, and I agree with all of that but I absolutely will not stand for a walled garden iOS-like approach to the PC. If and when that happens is when the PC platform dies.
Which is exactly how it's always worked, thus Enterprise, LTSBs. But yeah, those aren't generally available to consumers.
How would an individual get their hands on these special builds of Windows 10?
 

heatlesssun

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Yes, and I agree with all of that but I absolutely will not stand for a walled garden iOS-like approach to the PC. If and when that happens is when the PC platform dies.
The Store isn't a walled garden, not in it's current form. It's a curated store. That's exactly what some PC users need. And I use Steam and GoG and Origin and standalone downloads right beside it. This is perfect as it works currently.
 

heatlesssun

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But who's to say that it won't become just that, a walled garden?
So there should not be a Microsoft curated store for Windows because who's to say fill in the Microsoft doomsday scenario of the day for the past two decades.

I don't think it makes much sense to run your business based of the sky is falling predictions of your biggest critics.
 

trparky

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So there should not be a Microsoft curated store for Windows because who's to say fill in the Microsoft doomsday scenario of the day for the past two decades.

I don't think it makes much sense to run your business based of the sky is falling predictions of your biggest critics.
Um... um... um... I'm at a loss here.
 

tetris42

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This is not at all a perfect solution. Those updates create dependencies over the years and skipping one can just a likely cause some other issue down the road.
I agree, but I'll take an imperfect solution over no solution every time.
 

Mazzspeed

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Systems that never get updated and get owned by malware because so many consumers never bothered to even look at updating?
I find this to be a futile argument, as even with updates Windows 10 is still plagued by malware and it's not just due to the user in front of the machine or the popularity of Windows as a platform. It's got to do with the fact that certain security concepts are sacrificed in the name of convenience as Windows has to cater to the average user.

Something that's unlikely to change ever, unless Microsoft force all software to come from the Windows store and remove the ability to install software via external sources.
 

heatlesssun

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Something that's unlikely to change ever, unless Microsoft force all software to come from the Windows store and remove the ability to install software via external sources.
And that would literally be a trillion times more controversial than the update issue. That said there is S mode for that situation.
 

Mazzspeed

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And that would literally be a trillion times more controversial than the update issue. That said there is S mode for that situation.
While you're hellbent on denying the reality of the situation, I'm quite certain that 'controversial' is going to be a popular word considering the future of Microsoft.
 

heatlesssun

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While you're hellbent on denying the reality of the situation, I'm quite certain that 'controversial' is going to be a popular word considering the future of Microsoft.
It's just that I got a Surface Go the other day and one of the very first things I did was turn off S mode. The next thing I did was install Steam. So yeah, something that would prevent gamers from installing the games they bought, WAY BIGGER issue than this one and that would be just the start.

Remember, one of the motivations for brining Steam to Linux was because of fear that Microsoft would disable 3rd party installs and stores with Windows 8's store. Fortunately for Steam and everyone else there's more Windows content on there than ever.
 

triwolf

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What? We're three years into Windows 10. The issues around telemetry and updates have been pretty much argued to exhaustion. I've never argued against having the "off" switch for telemetry or better control over updating. Where I have disagreements would be over things like Microsoft selling or sharing personally identifiable information, there's no evidence of things like that and it's difficult to see how that would benefit Microsoft considering their huge cloud business.



There are alternatives to desktop Windows. Macs, Linux and Chromebooks are the major options. None of them offer the 3rd party hardware and software support of Windows currently however. If one wants support for most all of the latest and greatest in desktop hardware and software and Windows legacy stuff there's only Windows 10.

I get the biggest laugh when called a Microsoft shill because I constantly point out that if one doesn't need or want this kind of support then go for Linux or a Chromebook or a Mac and stop using Windows. Because apparently some of you are getting ulcers over Windows 10. For me it works WAY better than XP and supports everything I need and want from a PC in spite of its problems. Why just basic and common sense stuff gets folks all freaked out is just funny to me.
It's been shown many times MS and many other Tech companies were forced by governments to add back doors and surveillance, see Wikileaks, and many other places for proof.

How exactly does one play games such as... well 99.9% of them! Along with the thousands of thousands of Windows apps? You are incorrect, Mac Linux and Chromebook don't run hardly any MS APPS, FALSE CHOICE. MS is not a choice for most people, it's a must, and when they don't listen to their users, and always have some lame excuse, people in this world get fed up, see the Susan Bradley's open letter to MS
 

DPI

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It's just that I got a Surface Go the other day and one of the very first things I did was turn off S mode. The next thing I did was install Steam. So yeah, something that would prevent gamers from installing the games they bought, WAY BIGGER issue than this one and that would be just the start.
The only reason there is even an opt out for crippled Windows (S)hit mode is because it didn't gain any traction on the first attempt when it was just Windows S - locked down to just the store apps and you couldn't install your own programs. But OEMs said "no way" since customers would have balked like Windows RT all over again, so MS was forced to backtrack. So to imply "what's the big deal you could opt out all along" is total nonsense since it only ended up that way against MS's intended outcome.

But like cutting out cancer early or keeping knives out of the hands on children, the only and best thing for S mode and the Windows 10 store overall is for it to continue to be ignored by users and never gain traction. It really is trying to be a store for all the wrong reasons, with six layers of DRM even on freeware - everything is obfuscated and kept under MSs lock and key. It's truly cancer.

There was a right way for MS to build a store and that would've been to make it as a central repository for Windows program distribution, similar to the popular Linux distros, and then slowly over time creep in the monetized app crap. But it should've been done decades ago, the ship has sailed.
 
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Mazzspeed

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If Microsoft could avoid using the Windows Store for the financial benefit of Microsoft and free from unnecessary limitations and focus on using a central software repository to rectify all the issues surrounding random installers and legacy Win32 applications, the malware and virus issues surrounding Windows as a platform could literally be resolved overnight. The problem is Microsoft are pushing a Windows Store for all the wrong reasons.

Android and iOS users don't seem to have a single issue with central software repositories with evidence that malware and virus infections under an OS more popular than Windows are virtually non existent compared to the Windows platform.
 

Ranulfo

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The Store isn't a walled garden, not in it's current form. It's a curated store. That's exactly what some PC users need. And I use Steam and GoG and Origin and standalone downloads right beside it. This is perfect as it works currently.
There are exclusives to windows store and locked to it. Hell, if I buy Sea of Thieves for Xbone, its locked to Xbone. I have to buy in the windows store to have "play anywhere" which is only playable on windows 10, via the store. Hence I don't own the game because I'd rather play it on PC, oh and I wouldn't have to pay for xbox live.
 

mufcfan

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Sure...for the 'typical' consumer. What OUR untypical needs? In case you've missed the URL, you're posting at [H] - a place built on people building their own 'personal computer' systems - tweaking the OS to suit our specific needs. Until Win10, Microsoft allowed us to control our own systems. That era is over.

So...it is world-ending for many of us. Not you though...so lucky you, enjoy your Candy Crushed future.
On the last page it was explained how you can get rid of built-in software before install and how to change updating to manual. You can also disable all the MS-related communication on your network.

These are the untypical methods to cater for your untypical needs. What more do you want?
A shiny interface? I'm sure the [H] people who want this can whip one up in no time.
 

Mazzspeed

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I now own a MacBook because of this.
The Mac updating process isn't much better than the process under Windows.

and how to change updating to manual.
And it was highlighted by many that the processes outlined are outdated and do not work reliably for extended periods of time.

You can also disable all the MS-related communication on your network.
Security data at the most basic setting available under Professional or Home still includes Microsoft's 'Connected User Experience.' AKA: Spyware.

You can try blocking at hardware firewall level, but a thorough analysis with Wireshark will highlight this process isn't as simple as it seems.
 
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SmokeRngs

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In the consumer space who the hell wants to deal with release notes for OS updates? Just update and go. Simple and reliable. Not saying that Windows 10 is there but this idea that in the consumer space the average person is just obsessed with each and every OS update is just not the reality of it.
Why are you against people having the knowledge of the updates at hand? I can't for the life of me think of a single logical reason that the information should be hidden. If someone doesn't want to read it they don't have to. It's that simple.
 

Delicieuxz

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The degraded support for 7 and 8.1 will effect everything in time. Lending-bleeding edge stuff like VR tends to drop support for older OSes first however.
I think I'm leaning towards "willful ignorance" at this point.
I'm not. I think they're paid to dupe and brainwash as many people as they can. Lots of companies pay propagandists, and the practice goes back over a decade: https://consumerist.com/2006/02/06/did-nvidia-hire-online-actors-to-promote-their-products/

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft has one or a few at every major tech forum.
 

Mazzspeed

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Drakeniir

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I'm in charge of patching my organisation, and I'll say - the number of issues after patching has skyrocketed this year after they started trying to fix the spectre issue. I keep a one month offset release schedule and a one major update revision offset. They've been pushing the release schedule too hard. twice a year is too much. they obviously can't handle the testing, and are pushing it off to us. fine for consumers, who can get away with running old software and allowing a few security holes. but not so much for corporations, we have to stay on top of it and keep those security patches applied or else we're in deep doo-doo. when I have to push off patching something even further than the current month because the latest update rollup broke something on test, things get hard to track quickly. Regular release schedule is B.S. when you release a broken patch and the re-release it several times in the following weeks.

Windows 7 era patches were almost always rock-solid. windows 10 patches of late have been about as solid as a wet noodle.
 
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