Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

Megalith

24-bit/48kHz
Staff member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
13,003
Despite increasing complaints by IT professionals, Microsoft doesn’t think anything is wrong with the current state of Windows Update, which has seen changes since the company’s shift to the Windows 10-as-a-service model. Some admins are regularly struggling with whether to install a patch that breaks a system or leave a machine vulnerable to disclosed flaws, but Redmond says the updates come at a clearly established schedule, implying there’s plenty of time for proper testing.

Wilcox outlines that Microsoft's guiding principles to its monthly Windows service updates are built around being "simple and predictable", "agile", and "transparent". Wilcox doesn't directly address patching expert Bradley's major complaints about Microsoft's patches of late, but said Microsoft's predictability meant IT managers should be able to handle its "simple, regular and consistent patching cadence". "You should be able to plan a time, well in advance, to work on new updates.”
 

viper1152012

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
1,025
I havent had any issues personally, but many cusromers come in and somehow have screwed the whole update system up.

Own dell, to and custom rigs.
3rd gen to 7th..

Anyone else?
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
8,965
I think they are simple and predictable. It simply might bork your system which is totally predictable.
It's so agile that even you did not see that it updated by itself. Transparent, yes. We see what MS is doing but they are not going to change. So with all the data collection on what we the users want, why is it that we do not get it?
Maybe they are data mining "other" info?
 

Delicieuxz

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
1,159
Windows as a disservice. It isn't a service to anyone.

Calling Nadella's "agile" (more like clumsy) method of Windows 10 update rollouts "Windows as a service" is taking the phrase 'pissing in your face and telling you that it's raining' to the ridiculous extreme.
 
Last edited:

Galvin

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
2,697
If you're not using games. Linux is probably the better option. The sooner people start leaving windows the better. Operating systems shouldn't need updates unless there is a vulnerability . Been using 8.1 for years with no issues. No updates every 6 months. Just normal patches. This is how an OS should be. OS needs to be stable and not cause you headaches.
 
D

Deleted member 245375

Guest
"Simple"

Not fucking even.

"Regular"

Apparently they don't seem to grasp the inherent flaw in that line of thinking meaning if they'd make the code properly in the first place they wouldn't need to be...

"Consistent"

No offense, but the old way of doing things - big service packs - was inherently superior to this new rolling release bullshit. With a service pack you could do pre-roll out testing with it in a controlled environment and catch the showstoppers prior to that roll out and resolve them. The rolling release bullshit means shit breaks, it needs fixing but the fact that the shit is broken means it won't work well enough to figure out what's broken in the first place let alone be stable enough to apply the fix for the shit that got broken by the busted patch in the first place.

You're sweeping a dirt floor, Microosft, and you're not very good at it.
 

RogueKitsune

Weaksauce
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
110
At work I use Windows 10, and encounter lots of issues through out a given month. I figure if in an extremely controlled and near static enterprise environment Windows 10 cannot function correctly, what hope do I have trying to run it on my personal machine where I constantly make tweaks. I won't say Windows 7 patches have been all sunshine and roses but things seem to be better than whats going on with Windows 10.
 

Time2Kill

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,172
Can't even begin to tell you how many times Windows 10 just randomly rebooted during the work day and decided to do an update that would take 1-2 hours, leaving my business basically shut down. Fuck windows, fuck microsoft.
 

tetris42

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
4,518
I find it amazing the complaint v. the response:

Complaint: "Some admins are regularly struggling with whether to install a patch that breaks a system or leave a machine vulnerable to disclosed flaws"
Response: "Redmond says the updates come at a clearly established schedule"

Problem solved! Except, uh...
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,008
I saved a ton of headaches by switching to Linux.

Just saying.
If you're not using games. Linux is probably the better option. The sooner people start leaving windows the better. Operating systems shouldn't need updates unless there is a vulnerability . Been using 8.1 for years with no issues. No updates every 6 months. Just normal patches. This is how an OS should be. OS needs to be stable and not cause you headaches.
Well, that did not take long, I see. Look, I see a Windows thread, lets all promote Linux Doors instead! :cautious::eek::rolleyes::D
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,008
Can't even begin to tell you how many times Windows 10 just randomly rebooted during the work day and decided to do an update that would take 1-2 hours, leaving my business basically shut down. Fuck windows, fuck microsoft.
What the hell, are you running build 1507 on a 5400 rpm 10 year old hard drive?
 

Galvin

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
2,697
I been wanting to get away from MS bullshit for years, but games keeps me here. I'm not on windows by choice. Its just the better option if you're gamer.
Thank god I'm sitll using windows 8.1 and don't have to deal with all the drama that comes with windows 10.

In before someone with zero windows 10 problems makes a comment :)
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
12,008
I been wanting to get away from MS bullshit for years, but games keeps me here. I'm not on windows by choice. Its just the better option if you're gamer.
Thank god I'm sitll using windows 7 and don't have to deal with all the drama that comes with windows 8.1.

In before someone with zero windows 8.1 problems makes a comment :)
I been wanting to get away from MS bullshit for years, but games keeps me here. I'm not on windows by choice. Its just the better option if you're gamer.
Thank god I'm sitll using windows XP and don't have to deal with all the drama that comes with windows Vista.

In before someone with zero windows Vista problems makes a comment :)
And on and on and on...…………….

Windows is still straight up the best OS there is available but, it is not the only OS and Linux does have is purposes, even on the desktop. Drama occurs because of those who on the internet who produce the drama, not those who want to fix the issues themselves.
 

Mazzspeed

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,693
And on and on and on...…………….

Windows is still straight up the best OS there is available but, it is not the only OS and Linux does have is purposes, even on the desktop. Drama occurs because of those who on the internet who produce the drama, not those who want to fix the issues themselves.
Your consistent praise of Windows 10 and attacks on those that speak the realistic truth relates in many ways to individuals claiming they're in love with their rapist.
 

DPI

Nitpick Police
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
10,960
Tell that to the Android and iOS crowd that with every new release there's parties that surround said new releases.
Just a few problems with trying to excuse Windows 10's abysmal update record with "Hey man what about Google/Apple":

1) My PC is not a fucking phone
2) Android and iOS updates don't ever force-install themselves
3) Android and IOS updates don't ever reboot your device in the middle of using it
4) Android and iOS updates get tested by real QA professionals, in real QA divisions
5) Android and iOS updates don't generally brick a percentage of devices
6) Android and iOS updates are generally delta updates that respect your settings and don't wipe/reset back to defaults
7) Android and iOS updates don't reinstall bloatware you thought you already removed
8) See #1
 
Last edited:

DPI

Nitpick Police
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
10,960
Susan Bradley's open letter to Microsoft is an excellent read, and really nails so much of the frustration that users and admins are experiencing and tolerating in the hopes things eventually get better (hint: three years on, and they're not getting better).

Unfortunately Microsoft isn't going to do a damn thing, since every move Nadella has quietly made internally this year - including getting rid of Terry Myerson and folding Windows into another disinterested division - indicates we're in the midst of a pivot away from consumer-facing products and a slow sunsetting of Windows. Drunk with Azure profits, Nadella will not rest until he's turned MS into IBM 2.0.
 
Last edited:

trparky

Gawd
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
971
1) My PC is not a fucking phone
OK, I can give you that.

2) Android and iOS updates don't ever force-install themselves
Um... yeah, I agree.

3) Android and IOS updates don't ever reboot your device in the middle of using it
Yep.

4) Android and iOS updates get tested by real QA professionals, in real QA divisions
Um... both Android and Apple do have public beta testers.

5) Android and iOS updates don't generally brick a percentage of devices
OK... yeah, I agree.

6) Android and iOS updates are generally delta updates that respect your settings and don't wipe/reset back to defaults
*nods head*

7) Android and iOS updates don't reinstall bloatware you thought you already removed
No, they tend to come with new bloatware. LOL
 

chaos4u

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
349
Simple and consistent was service patches, such as sp1 sp 2 sp3 etc.. they should really go back to this sure there maybe vulnerabilities in the meantime. but its not like microsoft patches things when they are needed to begin with, and after julys fiasco with their automated system . it makes those old sp1 and 2 disks look much more desirable than the mess we have today.
 
Last edited:

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
10,631
No, both 1709 and 1803 feature updates have completely reset 802.1X settings, which is a bitch to fix when there are tons of them having the issue.
The reboot isn't the issue, or the overly long install time on even a fast SSD, but the enterprise settings getting reset to OS defaults is utter bullshit and is getting quite tiresome.

Normal consumers and home users will most likely never see these issues, but for enterprise, it is becoming one hell of a headache.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
10,631
What the hell, are you running build 1507 on a 5400 rpm 10 year old hard drive?
No, those feature updates really do take 1-2 hours to fully install, even on a fast 6-core CPU and SSD with plenty of RAM.
Though the reboot normally only takes around 5-10 minutes once it has been prepped before the initial reboot.
 

dyzophoria

Gawd
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
946
Not sure which "IT Professionals" are saying updates are borking their systems, Generally just delay patches (if you don't have a dedicated QA) for 2-4 weeks, actually even if you have a QA team, do at least a week worth of testing. We do this for Windows, We do this for linux. Well for the feature updates, We usually a schedule (with an advisory) for our users and plan ahead ( a reinstall, diagnosis) If the feature update does something nasty.
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
8,965
And on and on and on...…………….

Windows is still straight up the best OS there is available but, it is not the only OS and Linux does have is purposes, even on the desktop. Drama occurs because of those who on the internet who produce the drama, not those who want to fix the issues themselves.
No, it's not the best OS, it's the only OS really. Big difference.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
No, it's not the best OS, it's the only OS really. Big difference.
True. The thing about Windows 10 and part of the problem with it is just how much shit it has to support. No one has crammed in a single client OS quite everything that Windows 10 supports and it definitely adds to the complexity but the support for all of this hardware and software is the main reason those who choose to run 10 do.
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
8,965
True. The thing about Windows 10 and part of the problem with it is just how much shit it has to support. No one has crammed in a single client OS quite everything that Windows 10 supports and it definitely adds to the complexity but the support for all of this hardware and software is the main reason those who choose to run 10 do.
They are the ones that choose to support all the crap. If they separated the OS, it would not have that problem.
 

dragonstongue

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
3,162
so the glut of systems breaking, trashing hardware, forced updates causing instability is all "planned" and inconsequential to the end user (individual users or big business customers)?

They either are not data mining for stability or they are and simply do not give a flying fk about the amount of issues they have cause shifting to the "new" method for making it windows as a service.

I feel the same way as others have said, if something needs to be fixed for security or otherwise, do so, but to depreciate things or to purposefully botch things so they no longer work the way they should (forcing their own versions over what folks actually WANT) and/or to force massive patches/updates that hurt the experience more than they actually help it, not cool.

To have the choice of when and where to install updates should have always been in the users control, not the companies, if they say "security risk" well then, they should be going back to the drawing board to make sure sharing the sickness is less likely to happen instead of forcing potential system breaking "patches" or forced driver updates "just because"

At the very least they should give far more information on the KB articles instead of leaving them cryptic as they have always been and require the end user to research the crap out of things that can be in more "plain language"
 

Naieve

Gawd
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
741
Neither of my computers will successfully update to 1803 or 1804. Getting the creators update on my computers required clean installs.

I'm not clean installing every time Microsoft updates windows..........
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
They are the ones that choose to support all the crap. If they separated the OS, it would not have that problem.
Not that simple though. Take 2 in 1s. Microsoft just launched its smallest and maybe most interesting Surface device this week in the Surface Go. The main draw of that device and 2 in 1s in general is that it can be a small full Windows PC AND function as a tablet. In any case the 2 in 1 market is critical to Windows now, it's not going away anytime soon.
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
8,965
Not that simple though. Take 2 in 1s. Microsoft just launched its smallest and maybe most interesting Surface device this week in the Surface Go. The main draw of that device and 2 in 1s in general is that it can be a small full Windows PC AND function as a tablet. In any case the 2 in 1 market is critical to Windows now, it's not going away anytime soon.
I don't care about their surface thingy or any other product they have except Windows. Trying to have it all in 1 OS does not seem to be working. They are trying to tell people how to operate their OS.
Resetting things that people have worked hard to get rid of on the bloated OS. IMO, people want to set up the OS the way they want it and have it work.
I think people are kind of pissed when they reset things or add things that they do not want. If they got rid of the bloatware, the OS would only need 1/2 the space.
 

Dead Parrot

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
2,831
In the good old days, we used to get new features via rarely released service packs that were usually well announced and documented months before release. This was back when the end user had full control over updates and could pick and choose which if any, updates to install. The average company large or small could plan for a SP roll out and schedule it when staff was available. Especially important for smaller companies that might only have a part time contractor type IT person. This also allowed plenty of time for testing and exempting any problematic PCs from the immediate roll out until they could be fixed later.

Now, unless you have handed over a bucket of cash for the Enterprise version, you have damn near forced twice a year 'feature updates' plus bundled patch Tuesday updates that are hard to break apart for the average end user or small company. A lot of companies can't afford twice a year full up testing of a new OS version and monthly testing of a rollup bundle of security updates.

Now along comes Microsoft with an 'As a Service' plan where for a small fee per PC, they will manage the PCs for you. Anyone think that wasn't the plan all along?
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
8,965
In the good old days, we used to get new features via rarely released service packs that were usually well announced and documented months before release. This was back when the end user had full control over updates and could pick and choose which if any, updates to install. The average company large or small could plan for a SP roll out and schedule it when staff was available. Especially important for smaller companies that might only have a part time contractor type IT person. This also allowed plenty of time for testing and exempting any problematic PCs from the immediate roll out until they could be fixed later.

Now, unless you have handed over a bucket of cash for the Enterprise version, you have damn near forced twice a year 'feature updates' plus bundled patch Tuesday updates that are hard to break apart for the average end user or small company. A lot of companies can't afford twice a year full up testing of a new OS version and monthly testing of a rollup bundle of security updates.

Now along comes Microsoft with an 'As a Service' plan where for a small fee per PC, they will manage the PCs for you. Anyone think that wasn't the plan all along?
So you can pay to fix what they broke. Genius of them I say!
 

PeaKr

Gawd
Joined
Sep 6, 2004
Messages
884
Not that simple though. Take 2 in 1s. Microsoft just launched its smallest and maybe most interesting Surface device this week in the Surface Go. The main draw of that device and 2 in 1s in general is that it can be a small full Windows PC AND function as a tablet. In any case the 2 in 1 market is critical to Windows now, it's not going away anytime soon.
Sounds like m$ needs to hire back its quality control rather than paying for articles and hiring forum shills to gaslight people into believing everything is unicorns and rainbows.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
I don't care about their surface thingy or any other product they have except Windows. Trying to have it all in 1 OS does not seem to be working. They are trying to tell people how to operate their OS.
If Windows 10 isn't working out then what other operating system is working out better? As you point out people use Windows 10 because it's the only option. It's the only thing that will support my VR gaming rig and my 2 in 1 devices for instance. And everything at work as well as we're moving to 10 there.

Resetting things that people have worked hard to get rid of on the bloated OS. IMO, people want to set up the OS the way they want it and have it work.
I think people are kind of pissed when they reset things or add things that they do not want. If they got rid of the bloatware, the OS would only need 1/2 the space.
I'm not saying things can't be improved, there's plenty that can. I do find it interesting how some constantly refer to "bloat". I'm typing all of this from my Surface Go, a pretty resource constrained device that's got all of this "bloat" and it's running quite well. Mileages always vary of course.
 
Top