Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. trparky

    trparky Gawd

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    No, I just understand that in the real world where the adults play, things can only be corrected when laws come into play to stop said stuff from happening. Right now there are no laws on the books to stop this so as of this moment in time, it's completely legal beyond a shadow of a doubt. If and when laws come about that say that this kind of behavior is illegal is when this stuff will end.
     
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  2. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Gawd

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    It applies to a sale of assets. Selling the business is one way that assets are sold. Selling just the data is also selling assets.
     
  3. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's part of an ad engine, like the ad engines that help fund this a millions of web sites folks use for free. But if Microsoft does it it's like some conspiracy or something.

    I guess. Nothing that really matters to me because it's just going to be the same crap people have been arguing over for decades. I just care if Microsoft's or any other companies products and services do what I need and want. If not I'll use something else.
     
  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Sure, and if you bought a business you'd want every last drop of data they have to go with the sale of that business.
     
  5. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    And it's an idea that's being forced onto the consumer as an accepted part of living in a modern society and it's wrong.

    And it's obviously sharing personal data by default.

    Which is not a reflection of every PC user in existence.
     
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  6. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    So a person shouldn't be able to see his business because he may have personal information about his customers like a mailing list?

    Yes, by design and not a secret. You and I are on this site all of the time, I leave the ads on and it does the same thing.

    If one is spending their own money on their PC then it probably is. People are going to use the hardware, products and services that suit them if it's coming out of their pocket.
     
  7. Todd Walter

    Todd Walter Gawd

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    It's entirely not anonymous otherwise they wouldn't have the toggle for the advertising ID in the privacy settings.
     
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  8. Todd Walter

    Todd Walter Gawd

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    Civil cases only need the preponderance of evidence; you can get away with suppositions there. If your opponent cannot provide a reasonable alternate argument, you can nail them.
     
  9. trparky

    trparky Gawd

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    But it's an ID, sort of like... 65389b73-c7ca-444c-99e9-da01f829b988. As long as that number doesn't specifically get tied to me, personally, I really don't see the problem. It's not like it's a credit card or social security number, which are... you know... very personal.
     
  10. trparky

    trparky Gawd

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    Now if that number were to be tattooed on my forehead then yeah, we're going to have some... problems.
     
  11. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    We're not talking about a simple mailing list here, we're talking about targeted advertising and personal metadata that you as yet haven't proven beyond all doubt that Microsoft isn't gathering to some degree even at the most secure personal settings as part of the Connected User Experience.

    In my case I have settings in place to ensure banner advertising is not targeted. Targeted advertising at operating system level is far from acceptable, especially when the default settings open the flood gates to Microsoft. Bear in mind we're talking about 'targeted advertising' here, evidence along with an advertising ID that may be traceable back to an end user and therefore an identity that Microsoft is harvesting personal information.

    Before you argue 'Android', you can inspect the Android source code, as an operating system it's not harvesting data.

    Absolutely not. Point in case being myself.
     
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  12. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's pretty hilarious. You constantly say how my usage of PCs doesn't represent everyone. Never said it did. However I use a Windows PC at work, run Word, Excel, Outlook. That's about as common as oxygen in a back office work environment. At home I play games on Windows PCs and there's how many tens of millions of PC gamers around the globe? If you can walk into a Walmart and buy gaming PCs and accessories, yeah, its pretty common stuff.

    I'm very much a typical PC user in most ways, far more common than a desktop Linux user who goes round installing 30 distros a day. I just use a lot more hardware, software and services than typical PC users.
     
  13. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    WAS - Windows As a Service
     
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  14. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not only have you just contradicted yourself in your own post by stating that you never claimed that your PC usage represents everyone and then going on to state that "you're (being yourself) a typical PC user in most ways", implying that you do believe that your own use of a PC reflects everyone. But in your original post you definitely stated in context that your usage of your PC 'probably reflects everyone'.

    You're shifting goal posts all over the place here. Fact is: You believe that your use of a PC reflects everyone, the reality of the situation is that your use of a PC is irrelevant in the broader scheme of things and does not in any way represent everyone at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    No one represents everyone is a population the size of PC users. However some activities are pervasive. You can't possibly be arguing that countless millions aren't using Microsoft Office on Windows PCs at work for instance.
     
  16. clockdogg

    clockdogg Gawd

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    FFS, Man! We BUY our WIndows licences. It is not in any way similar to the Google/FB data-mining in exchange for their 'free' sucker services. We bought a licence for an operating system. We own the license. That has legal implications that MS dodges around in their pathetic T&C legalese.

    We did NOT grant a licence to Microsoft to track us at the OS level and sell our data. OUR data. It's that simple. And that is the insidiously outrageous part. Our personal data is the MOST valuable thing on the internet to marketers.

    If Microsoft said: "Mr. Dogg, your data is very valuable to us and we appreciate how our revenue has soared thanks to our exploitation of gullible customers like you and Mr. Heatlesssun (although he's already on the payroll). Because we want to keep harvesting your data, we've decided to pay you 15% of revenue created by harvesting and re-selling your data. At Microsoft, we want everyone to benefit directly from the global ad revenue machine." - that would be closer to fair, rather than their current data-rape policies.

    In future decades hope we, the sheeples, wake up and smell the stench. All these companies are stealing from us. From Google to now, Microsoft. We need better lawyers and laws. Copyright your data now! We're all online profile composers. We deserve the royalties from our online life. Seems absurd, right? But, Google & FB would not be tech (advertising) giants without their free and easy access to our data. Big data is big business and we're the freakin' product.

    If Microsoft wants to monetize me, they better give me a cut of the action. If not, then I expect the purchased OS to be just be an OS, not an Advertising Platform.
     
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  17. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Gawd

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    The "as a service" idea by Microsoft refers to Microsoft's own internal patch development and release schedule: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-overview?ocid=tia-258261000

    It doesn't mean anything towards people's owned Windows licensed instances (which are products and goods) or towards people's personal ownership over their data and control over their own Windows OS.

    Windows "as a service" applies only to how Microsoft manages its own development of updates internally at Microsoft. It doesn't mean anything for Windows owners and their OSes, and all perpetual license software are not services - they're products / goods.

    It would be outright illegal for Microsoft to claim that sold Windows 10 products were not products but services, as that would mean that Microsoft has defrauded the millions of people who were advertised and bought Windows perpetual licenses.
     
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  18. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I can argue that the bulk of the population use Microsoft Office because they don't know any better, especially considering the compatibility issues surrounding Microsoft Office and the fact that Libre Office is actually the more compatible suite once you realize how Microsoft manipulate the various standards.

    I can argue that Outlook sucks with anything beyond basic POP/IMAP and is essentially designed to be a front end for Exchange and I can argue that Thunderbird is actually the more flexible mail client/calendar with the more user friendly and uncluttered interface. Once again, people use Outlook because they don't know any better.

    I can state quite factually that the bulk of the population do not reflect yourself as a Windows obsessive and can quite easily do without Windows tomorrow if they only knew alternatives exist.
     
  19. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeah, can't wait for THAT transition. I actually would use an older version of Windows forever like a dinosaur or finally deal with Linux, despite the game compatibility hit.
     
  20. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And it is not an advertising platform so what are you on about...……?
     
  21. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They can't do that, but they can say that the new version is only available as a service. As many companies do now. Like Autodesk no longer sells perpetual licenses. And they're brooding about the holdouts still using old versions. They can't do anything about that, but for future releases it's open season.
     
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  22. Todd Walter

    Todd Walter Gawd

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    That is the ideal case, however, if Facebook can create a reasonable shadow-profile of you based on your friends' postings it is not unreasonable to assume Microsoft can do the same thing, especially if you surf from your Windows PC. That they are shy about showing you what is there, and exactly how it is being used, is of concern.
     
  23. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Exactly, the same story for Adobe products. Who knows what Microsoft has planned, but Windows 10 being as invasive as it is would certainly be a good stepping stone to acclimate consumers to that sort of thing.
     
  24. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    What does any of this have to do with mainstream PC use? Applications that you just said most people don't know about. I do. And for whatever reason Linux FOSS fans never seem to get that Libre Office and Microsoft Office AREN'T 100% functionally compatible. THAT'S what causes a lot incompatibility issues.

    What are you talking about? I use Windows, by far the most common desktop OS in the world that most every other PC user users. I use Microsoft Office like a large majority of office works across the world. I play games on the PC, like Fortnite, about the most popular game in the world across multiple platforms. Your statement isn't logical. I use PCs the way most of the world does. I just have more of the tech in my house than most.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  25. ThatITGuy

    ThatITGuy Limp Gawd

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    I am actually fine if they built this into IE/Edge. it is the fact that it is built into the actual OS that I dislike. Being realistic, Linux is not an option for a majority of users. If Windows maintained the current "free - sorta, if you had a previous windows 7 key" Windows 10, and then had a "defeatured" Windows 10 that did not include any of the built in tracking/advertisements but for the price of previous windows keys, at least they would be giving users a choice. Right now you either stay in Windows 7 and block updates, or you go to Windows 10 and just have to accept the ads and other user tracking "features".

    As for the buggy updates, it extends beyond just Windows 10. The recent July update to our Windows Server environment broke the .Net apps. They did issue a hotfix last week, but we are still seeing issues with "access denied" errors, and had to just roll back the updates.
     
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  26. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    I agree with you, it is not worth it.
    However, I think that it is not worth it, whether you use Win10 or not. I honestly think that it does not make one iota of difference on a persons' life if he/she simply opts out of everything possible, sets telemetry to basic and sets updates to the slow ring or makes all the changes required to cut the OS from Microsoft and installs updates manually. Other than wasting a lot of time and energy on making the changes and keeping them in check.

    But setting that difference aside, I still think that it is not worth complaining about this 'forcing' and 'spying' thing, because there are ways around them.
    I would rather complain about the way some features are implemented or still not implemented at all, like modularity on a component/service level which could have the same benefits as with *nix.
     
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  27. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If there are ways around them then people want this. So why does MS not make it an option? It should not be difficult. Be nice not to have metro, update what you want, turn off spying, turn off anything not needed by the user.
     
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  28. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    Because 'update what you want' doesn't work with most users, who find ALL updates an annoyance which needs to be turned off if possible.

    You can turn off everything else and set telemetry to basic (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields).
    Uninstalling would be better, but it seems MS integrated some of its stuff so heavily that uninstalling some would at least partly bork the OS. Not the mention that some actually use and want those.
     
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  29. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    Sorry, sparky, not gonna happen. Customers finally giving up and stopping complaining about the lack of spyware off switch and lack of control over updates - is exactly what Microsoft has had their heels dug in hoping people do. But we're three years in and theyre still huge show stopper issues keeping many users and businesses on 7 and 8.1, where they will remain even past extended support (count on it).

    The garage hacks to "get around them" only work temporarily until the next featureless seasonal update. And they're only a best guess, they aren't 100% at blocking telemetry or updates. You can't rely on them to actually be working, so there needs to be an official option in the OS.

    Microsoft can keep watching W10 adoption remain essentially flat month over month, or they can pull their heads out and make a few concessions. If there's really no profit motive to the data collection as the paid shills here insist, then it shouldn't be such a big deal to let a small percentage of users opt out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  30. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    Would like to add, that, since I have never seen any 3rd party ads in Win10, I have tried to find such incidents on the web, but could not.
    All the pictures, articles and complaints are about Microsoft (Store) ads. Mainly about free stuff.

    So, I'm still not seeing the evidence of evil in this.
    It would be better if there was no data collection at all, but I don't find that a realistic scenario as it would mean a large disadvantage for MS compared to all other, even mobile, OS producing companies.
    As long as I don't see the actual benefit of getting rid of all this and whilst there is a clear benefit of using Win10 instead of something else, I'm not going to go out of my way to do anything about it.

    We can only hope that the market gets real contenders and having companies really fight over users and market share.
     
  31. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    You misunderstood, I think MS has a motive to do it, they need the data just like Google, Apple, FB and basically all corps and even small businesses, as it was pointed out earlier.
    I just don't see my benefit over stopping them (and not others) doing it in comparison with the time and effort it requires from me.

    We will see what will happen in late 2019/early 2020 when Windows 7 should stop receiving security updates and around 2022/2023 when them same should happen with 8.1.
    I've used 8.1 and I really didn't like it. I just sticked with 7 as I had my problems with 8.1 and saw no real benefit of switching.

    With corporations adopting Win10 now, I don't think MS will make big changes. Even if Enterprise doesn't have all these controversial bells and whistles and have their own WSUS.
    As I said, it would be much better to have real competition and real fight for our business.
     
  32. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Sure, just like people who held on to XP. Everyone is going to have the story about it but major enterprises that have solid Windows infrastructure are moving to 10. We pretty flow with how the rest of industry has, we adopted XP, 7 and now 10 and rejected Vista and 8.x.

    It took 7 around 3 years to surpass XP in the Netmarketshare survey. 10 looks like it will take 6 to 12 months longer. And while there was the free and aggressive first year of upgrades to 10, new PC sales which are by far how most consumers get a new version of Windows, are significantly lower now than nearly a decade ago though there seems to be some uptick with enterprise upgrades to 10. Don't blame me for that, that's what IDC and Gartner are saying, talk to them if you don't like it.
     
  33. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    And this is how it's been for too many years. Sitting and exchanging barbs over Windows 10 is meaningless unless there truly are alternatives. What's in the market. Forever we've had Macs and Linux distros and more recently Chromebooks. Each one with strengths over Windows 10 and all with significant shortcomings with their ecosystems relative to Windows 10.

    So people like me can get blasted all day long for being shills and defending Microsoft but in the practical, real world my work is moving to Windows 10, personally I have a ton of stuff that only works with Windows, Windows 7 support is degrading for some of and Windows 8.x never had enough market share to make any impact.

    So it's just water off a ducks back to me to blasted over Windows 10 with the best alternative that some freaking out about is to switch to Linux. That might work for some but far from everyone without introducing its own set of problems.
     
  34. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes, some use and want those, not all. That is the point.
     
  35. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's probably safe to assume that most people still on Windows 7 want those options, since it has them. So we're only talking about hundreds of millions of people.
     
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  36. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I never disputed this fact, I stated that Microsoft office struggles regarding compatibility with many standards that exist for the purpose of cross compatibility between office suites due to Microsoft's documented manipulation of such standards, I stated that Libre Office does not have this issue and is therefore actually the more compatible office suite compared to Microsoft Office.

    I stated that people use Microsoft Office because, quite simply, most of the time they have no idea alternatives exist.

    And once again, I don't care.

    I play games, I work, I browse, I open emails, I use a PC the way the rest of the world does - I don't primarily use Windows. You seem to believe your use of a PC reflects the majority simply because you appear to think that one of the most important uses of a PC is gaming, this is a childish outlook regarding PC usage and incorrect.

    You are, to say the least, a Microsoft fanatic. Your need for Microsoft products go far beyond just using Windows because it does what you need it to do, you are obsessed with Microsoft. If I was a swinging Microsoft user your postings would actually turn me away from the product for an alternate solution, I would most definitely take your obsessive comments with a major grain of salt. You appear to fear the idea of Windows users switching to something else that's not Microsoft.

    The majority of users don't need Windows considering their simplistic usage of a PC, a minority of users need Windows due to Microsoft's manipulation regarding their office suite and resulting lack of cross platform compatibility. ;)

    Once you consider that Windows 10 was given away, it's adoption is more than sluggish compared to XP and a sign that most don't actually like the operating system.
     
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  37. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    To play devil's advocate, it's not JUST games, any time you get into specialty programs for niche uses, the options for Windows are much larger than on Linux. Or hell, maybe you need specialty features in a version of Adobe software that simply doesn't exist in other software that's equivalent in other ways. The wider the range of software you use, the higher the chance is you're going to run into walls not being on Windows. That said, we're talking about people who use their computer for a lot of different or specialty things (which is probably a substantial number of [H] members, but still). For Joe Average, Linux is quite capable in a lot of ways and could be a realistic replacement in many scenarios. I think its biggest obstacle to getting mainstream acceptance is no one is paying money to have it automatically installed on new PCs that people buy. Entrenchment is hell to overturn.
     
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  38. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Standards hardly matter when to someone just trying to get something done. There's just a lot of weird inconsistenices all over the place. Like this one with word highlighters, and no not restricted to ink enabled devices before you go there:

    Word 2016:
    upload_2018-8-8_19-39-18.png

    Libre Office Writer 6.0.6.2 Win x64:
    upload_2018-8-8_19-39-29.png

    Maybe this is a standards problem but to the typical user it matters zero what the problem is. The text is still there under the highlight in Writer if you move the highlight which just turned into an image which regardless of why is seriously wrong.

    Considering the difference in new PC sales now compared to the 7 era, not really. The overwhelming majority of consumer users get new versions of Windows with new PCs, not OS upgrades. The Windows 10 free upgrade period did make up for the difference in new PCs for the last three years compared to a decade ago.
     
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  39. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    As much as some make of typical and average users, the way they get new versions of Windows is which new hardware. There's no way Linux becomes more than niche until OEMs start installing on a large scale on new hardware. That might come with Chromebooks in the future but if you're an OEM why would you preinstall a desktop Linux distro and if you're Walmart of Best Buy why would you put those devices on store shelves? Maybe on lower end machines but the competition there is Chromebooks. Perhaps a mainstream conventional laptop. But no way on a 2 in 1 or gaming labeled device.
     
  40. clockdogg

    clockdogg Gawd

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