Windows 10 Buggy Updates? Our Patching Is Simple, Regular, Consistent Says Microsoft

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Unless you set the time period to a time the PC is not switched on, after a while Windows will apply that update whether you like it or not no matter what you are doing.
     
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  2. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Okay, so you did misunderstand what I'm saying. What you posted won't work for everything I mentioned:

    1. You can't distinguish which updates you get and which ones you don't.
    2. You can't permanently refuse updates that give you problems.
    3. Using that method will turn the updates back on at a later date (there are multiple methods it does that)
    4. There's no way to distinguish between security-only updates v. everything else.

    All your registry key does is delay the update. Windows 10 does not work they way you think it does (or the way it says). Delicieuxz's guide is much more likely to turn them off, but even then, I don't think all those methods have been verified for a long period of time.
     
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  3. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is my idea of a well implemented updater:

    5G8GXUY.png
     
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  4. sadsteve

    sadsteve Gawd

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    There are a number of Apps that aren't unistallable, like Edge, Cortana, Microsoft Store, Mixed Reality Portal, etc.
     
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  5. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    They are, via PowerShell.
    Google how to uninstall win10 built-in apps or something to that effect.
     
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  6. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    This is incorrect and outdated. You haven't been able to uninstall them with powershell or any other method post-install since last year. Microsoft blocked the ability.

    Only way to truly get rid of the bloat is ripping it out by the roots - prior to installation, with a tool like MSMG Toolkit to modify the ISO. Works great actually.
     
  7. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    Okay, then route number two: set the regkey to 5, so turn updating off and use the MS catalog which I have linked earlier to see all the updates and pick which ones you download and install them whenever you want to.
    I'm quite sure someone must have created a program which can even put it into checklist and show only the relevant updates like you want. (My opinion: if there isn't 'an app for that' then it means that people generally don't need it. Even though it could be whipped up in a matter of hours.)
    Also, if the regkey does get reset, it is pretty easy to make a monitoring script to reset it to your preference.
    I guess you will need to set to defer feature updates for 365 days in settings. Since you can only get support, security and other updates for the current and the previous RS version, and since the slow ring gets the feature updates ~3 months later anyway, that should be plenty of time to get ready or whatever.

    This is the way to achieve what you want within the shortest timeframe possible.
     
  8. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    This is correct. Happened to me too. Microsoft hardcoded a backchannel to bypass any settings, GPOs etc and force updates, and that WindowsUpdateAssistant crap that will keep redownloading endlessly if you keep deleting it. They forced 1803 on a few of my 1709 PCs - which essentially bricked them since 1803 had a bug that broke PCIe lane resource allocation - even though I had every imaginable and "google'able" block/defer setting in place.

    Those PCs are all back to 8.1 with the telemetry KBs ripped out. Tired of Microsoft's cat and mouse bullshit, especially when 10 doesn't do anything that 8.1 can't for my purposes. Literally nothing.

    Gave them benefit of the doubt for almost 3 years, but at some point you have to decide if you ride the horse, or if you're going to let the horse ride you.
     
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  9. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Or you're at a point where Windows 10 is your only or best option. As 7 and 8.1 age out support for them is going to degrade. We saw an example of this recently with the Rift and this type of thing is only going to become more common over time.
     
  10. sadsteve

    sadsteve Gawd

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    That only gets rid of some of them, there are still a few that won't go away.
     
  11. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    I've read about this issue. I see that it came up in November, 2017, with 1709 when it was only released for the fast ring. Why not use the slow ring and avoid the risky updates?
     
  12. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Perhaps 0.001% of PC users have Rift or will use Rift. Probably less than that.
     
  13. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    OK, I didn't know that, because I didn't need to use that method for a long time.
    Edge is the built-in browser, it is the fallback, so I understand that. I actually use it at work and at home, and I'm not missing anything critical.
    I just read that the store can still be removed. I'm not sure what is wrong with it. Same as any app store: Steam, Play Store, App Store, etc.
    Cortana can be disabled quite easily.
    I've never launched the Mixed Reality Portal and I don't have a VR headset, so I don't really care.

    My Windows installation keeps its weight, even after one year, unlike Win7, so I'm not concerned about free space.
     
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  14. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Which has nothing to do with the fact that 7 is getting old and 8.1 never obtained much market share, a guarantee that support for 8.1 is drop like a rock especially once it's out of extended support.
     
  15. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Yep, just another source of software, removing the Store for most people presents no benefit while missing out on apps that many would find useful like Netflix and other streaming apps, social media, etc. that often have features beyond web sites. myTube for instance, WAY better than using the YouTube web site for viewing video.
     
  16. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Doesn't matter as most of users never use VR.
     
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  17. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    The degraded support for 7 and 8.1 will effect everything in time. Lending-bleeding edge stuff like VR tends to drop support for older OSes first however.
     
  18. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  19. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Still unsure what changed or if MS paid Rift/game devs to make things 10 only. If its not using DX12, then no idea.
     
  20. mufcfan

    mufcfan Limp Gawd

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    Have they tried the normal method: setting Windows when you don't want it to reboot? Or maybe that is just too hard in comparison to a petition or whatever.
    Raising these issues like that takes a hell of a lot more time than making a workaround, let alone using the solutions available.

    I really hope that those guys get something out of this!
    However, I think that protesting this or not makes very little or no difference at all for MS. Just the same as implementing the changes they want would make little or no difference to most users.
     
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  21. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It had something to with performance for overlays I believe. At any rate Oculus said that 95% of their active users were already on Windows 10 which makes sense to me as it's normal to couple the latest and greatest PC gaming hardware with the latest version of Windows.
     
  22. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Normal, but 7 worked just as good. I did not notice performance issues moving to 10. Just the other stuff.
     
  23. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Except Oculus is saying that for the new stuff 7 doesn't work as well and besides that there are very few non-Windows 10 Rift anyway. We've been through this every time with Windows versions, it's got nothing to do with defending or loving Windows 10. 7 is going on a decade old now, it's seen its best days for driving the latest and greatest in PC hardware, same thing with XP. Just nothing new or surprising about this.
     
  24. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    Except that's not what Oculus actually said. VR's great, but going on and on like its something that more than a fringe of users cares about, or that Windows 7 and 8.1 somehow can't play all the content for HTC Vive and Oculus Rift exactly the same and that you need Windows 10, is just flat out disingenuous.

    Well if this really was just the same thing we always go through with a new Windows version, if there weren't actually fundamental problems and a strong backlash to Windows 10 across consumers and businesses that didn't exist quite the same way with ANY previous version (telemetry and forced updates, hello?), then there'd be no need to sweat it so hard and nervously police the board 24/7 with the redundant macro drivel about how amazing and wonderful it supposedly is. Why bother, since inertia and attrition could be left to do the work and beat users into submission like always.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  25. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    At this point, anyone toting this as "the same thing that always happens" is either practicing willful ignorance or fundamentally doesn't understand why the changes are so enormous, with no historical precedent in Windows' or even desktop history. Those of us who do understand can see down the road to see how this could go terribly. I don't expect the layman to understand, but it amazes me even now that tech users will so fervently defend loss of control over your own system. That's just not a change I welcome, nor was it one I'd ever thought I'd have to contend with on my own system. Nor did I anticipate so many people championing this loss of basic rights, really. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
     
  26. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    https://www.oculus.com/blog/updating-rifts-minimum-and-recommended-spec-os-to-windows-10/

    So yeah, Oculus said that Windows 10 is integral to supporting new resource heavy features.

    There's always people complaining about Windows. I'm not saying there aren't any issues with 10 but enterprises are migrating to it so that kind of seals the deal. It's going to overtake 7 if for no other reason than 7 is old now.
     
  27. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Or this is just hysteria. We're three years into this now and if Windows 10 were that bad then why is it settling into the SAME HISTORICAL PATTERNS?
     
  28. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Since when is something bad not accepted if people are given no choice in the matter? You said it yourself, you want updates, newer features, modern software support, you'll have to switch, sooner or later. Also, you notice I said I don't expect the layman to understand. The average person doesn't realize what they're losing. It's tech people that should know better.
     
  29. clockdogg

    clockdogg Gawd

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    Well said. I remember the days when a Personal Computer was about personal control based on personal tasks and tastes, not one-shiny-OS fits all data-mining needs.

    M$ have decided to lump all users (but enterprise, so far) into their Operating System As Advertising Service (OSAAS) model. Fine. That's the business model they want to run and fail with. I'm not paying for it.

    When support runs out on my connected Win7 box, then Linux will be the only web-facing OS here. My livelihood-critical edit/render uber-tweaked Windows boxes never touch the net anyhow. My only fear is whether I can grow a proper *Nix beard and memorize the full canon by 2020. That's a lot of 3 letters words to remember. ;-)
     
  30. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    So the same pattern. Old version of Windows gets old and a newer version comes takes its place. But only with Windows 10, for the first time ever has Microsoft been blasted over a version of Windows. Never mind all of the danger that many claimed Windows represented in the late 90s when Microsoft was facing is anti-trust issues.

    We've been through all of this before, the history is well documented. The only difference is that you and others might care this time for whatever reason.
     
  31. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Again, either willful ignorance or you don't understand. I'll make it simple:

    New version of Windows, people complaining = yes, same old pattern
    Mandatory updating, loss of complete control over your system, you cannot rely on your system never changing on its own accord, by design = no precedent in desktop history

    I can't make it any more blunt than that. Where you obviously don't see the potential problems with that, I consider this the biggest change to desktop computing since maybe the internet, and not a good one.

    EDIT:
    The irony of you bringing up the danger Windows posed from anti-trust issues is truly staggering. THIS IS the danger, and it doesn't end here. That's exactly how it works. The worst consequences don't happen today, they happen down the road. By implementing this now, it isn't just an inconvenience for people who want control over their system. Changes like this wouldn't be possible if there was real competition in the desktop space, it would be too costly for them. But since there is none, this opens up the door for god knows what down the line. The inability of tech people to see that, again, I'm amazed by.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  32. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Systems that never get updated and get owned by malware because so many consumers never bothered to even look at updating? I'm not saying that there should be more control over the process but the idea that manual updating is a panacea that never led to its own set of problems isn't the recorded history.
     
  33. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, from 95 to 7 it was basically the same far as using it, updating, installing software/hardware, etc. 8 to 10 just mashed 2 OS's into 1 and took away most of the control.
     
  34. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I think I'm leaning towards "willful ignorance" at this point.

    You can boil down your argument as such:

    "But bad things can happen to people who are in control of their own systems! Surely, it's better to TAKE AWAY ALL CONTROL FROM EVERYONE and PUT COMPLETE TRUST OF YOUR SYSTEM IN SOMEONE ELSE that no mistakes will happen if something goes wrong!"
     
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  35. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Enterprises wouldn't be deploying if they didn't have more control than consumers never had anyway. Again, we're three years into this, it's to be willfully ignorant of something that some be complaining about for three years. Indeed it's hard to be willfully ignorant of the DEACDES of Windows complaints if one has followed them.

    Some people have ALWAYS whatever issues they've had with Windows. But not everyone one obviously. I'm using it on all of my personal systems and we're moving to at work. Again, like it's always tended to work. If some has a better idea then I'm all for it. But time and time again, here we are. There's this crowd of folks that claim Windows (pick your version) is unacceptable, has all of these problems, and ultimately for many folks the alternatives have their own issues that solve nothing if you need the things Windows is strong in.
     
  36. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Back to this again, see post #193. I knew it might have been a mistake to add the "edit" part.
     
  37. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Yeah, this SAME argument has been made for decades. All of this danger due to lack of competition. I get that and here we are 20 years later and in the desktop space with again, exactly the same argument. Why in the hell didn't someone step up to the plate and compete? 20 years of 100 different desktop Linux distros that if were half as good as the fans say we'd all be using now. And Chromebooks, known for all that fine tuned control, wait a sec, nope.

    If Microsoft isn't listening when it comes to desktops it doesn't look like anyone else is doing any better.
     
  38. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm honestly not sure what your point is in the first part, sorry. As for Chromebooks, yes, those never had any control either, however I kind of dismissed them since those were never intended for serious work either.

    This has nothing to do with Microsoft "listening", they don't give a shit. As for others not removing final control of your system, MacOS, Linux, and Windows have decades-long history of not doing that, hence why there's no historical precedent for what Windows 10 does, EXCEPT Chromebooks, so yeah, you've got me there. You are making a compelling argument Windows 10 are just following Chromebooks' lead. I wouldn't want them for a system I depended on either.
     
  39. Ranulfo

    Ranulfo [H]ard|Gawd

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    The Chromebook example typifies MS mentality perfectly. They missed the boat on cheap disposable entry level etc. laptops and are now playing catchup (same with tablets). Levying their current customers loyalty/monopoly for a weak temporary market. Oh, lets copy the closed systems of google and apple, ignoring what has kept their users loyal (besides monopoly) aka hardware and software control options. MS has ignored the results of win8 and 10, apparently thinking its just vista level market ignorance and bad pr spin. SteamOS was a direct result of the windows store in win8 trying to lock down gaming and apps. Only now somewhat amelorated by win8/10's failures with the windows walled garden store and the play anywhere option for xbox/win10. That being only compelling reason to buy in the windows store and from most reports its buggy integration with xbox friends lists etc.. Games that weren't popular enough to sell only on windows store have ended up on Steam (Quantum Break for example).

    MS refuses to wake up and play their strengths on the desktop/business OS market and move into the supposed promise land of cloud computing. They want to control it all and make it all software as a service. No creativity on the UI front and as usual none on the software/hardware front. They've gotta follow the hype train from high to low. It will lead to big failure instead of just failure on the phones, games live, windows RT etc..
     
  40. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    2 in 1s have done very well in the market. And look at all of the folks that have copied the elements of Windows 2 in 1s. The Pixelbook, the top tier Chromebook is a 2 in 1 laptop with a pen. I'm sure Google didn't think about the Surface when copying, excuse me, borrowing the idea.


    Talk about failures, look at SteamOS and Steam machines. And how is the Windows Store a walled garden? Win32s and UWPs can be distributed by anyone.

    They play on the strength constantly with the best desktop software and hardware support. That and nothing else is why people choose to use Windows, for consumers like myself who choose to use Windows because another debate about how horrible Windows version whatever is and Windows is still way better than everything else in the desktop space when it comes to 3rd party support.