Valve Index

Discussion in 'VR & Head-Mounted Displays' started by atarumoroboshi18, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    In the same boat - just missed the first round of reservations before they sold out - site was being hammered when the orders first went live. Finally got through later that first day to make a reservation for an Index + Controllers. It was listed as arriving by 31 July when I placed it... hoping for an email in the next week or so to be able to pay for it.
     
  2. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Just got the notice email today and ordered! Hopefully arriving earlier than the original 31 July shipping estimate.

    Index.png
     
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  3. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    US based? No change on my end. I am kind of pumped for this one
     
  4. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wow, those base stations are pricey! $600 for 4 eh.
     
  5. reaper12

    reaper12 2[H]4U

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    They are pricey, but, why would you need 4? Have you got a play area larger than 25m squared?
     
  6. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    It is a completely different tech. You are confusing lighthouses for Rift cameras. A lighthouse is an infrared laser emitter that paints/bathes an entire room in signals. You only need two of them unless you want to use them in a room the size of a full basketball court. 2 of them is all you need for 100% coverage (I.E. the same coverage provided by 4 Rift cameras.)
     
  7. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Yep, Minneapolis. I did get on the list the first day they opening up reservations though.
     
  8. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I guess when I do switch, I can always try 2 and see if it works. Having my tracking go crazy is my biggest pet peeve on VR.
    Thanks!
     
  9. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    No need to try to “see if it works”. It does... and it works perfectly. I’ve had them for over 2 years now. Flawless tracking in every direction, zero issues. The lighthouses were designed for optimal tracking using 2. Like I said, it’s a completely different tracking tech than the Rift, The lighthouses are NOT cameras, they paint/bathe the room in laser marks for reference by the HMD.
     
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  10. atarumoroboshi18

    atarumoroboshi18 [H]Lite

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    OH YEAH! It's happening! Just got my reservation notification for the Index and the Index Controllers(no base stations, got the Gen. 1s already). I purchased that sucker super fast...on Credit Card, just in case!
     
  11. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Ok, so after messing with my Index for a solid week:

    Pros (ranked in order):
    1) Definitely a very nice and noticeable resolution bump. Much sharper/clearer image as well as improved FOV. Very clear not just in the center but also when moving your eyes around without moving your head - as in edge to edge visuals... Text is now very readable instead of being a blurry mess. The higher 120hz refresh also makes everything feel more solid/present.
    2) Sound is amazing. Love the off-the-ear speakers. They are very clear and have great bass. Sort of shocked how really, really good the sound is in the Index. I see all HMDs eventually adopting this design as it is truly superior to everything else.
    3) Comfort - Valve absolutely nailed it. Exceptional fit for me, well balanced and super comfy to wear for extended sessions - no more pressed goggle/mask face. Much, much more comfortable to wear than either the Vive or the Rift.
    4) Really nicely designed overall, with a lot of attention to detail as to quality of materials used, adjustability of everything, and fit/finish.

    Minor Cons:
    1) Something akin to "god rays" but more like "god bloom" or a "god halo" around the lenses when viewing very dark scenes with bright marquees. Not as bad as god rays which seem reduced in the Index somewhat and traded out for this new anomaly. I can live with it though, not a real show stopper to me, but it may annoy others more.
    2) Not completely in love with the button/touchpad placement on the Index controllers. They should have swapped them IMHO as its too easy to hit the buttons as that's where your thumb naturally wants to rest when holding them. The Rift Touch really nailed this correctly and while the Index Controllers are really good, I still have to give a nod to the Rift Touch controllers (not the Rift S) as to having the better layout. Not having to grip the controllers is a huge plus though. Will take some time to fully adapt to the new layout, but it's still infinitely better than the Vive wands.
    3) Front "Frunk" plastic visor shield is just cosmetic and covers up some of the HMD's forward vents in the front when attached. They should have made it smaller to just cover the Frunk's area instead of most of the front of the HMD. Easily detaches though, so I simply leave it off.

    Overall I am very pleased with the Index thus far. It definitely is the best HMD out there right now, easily surpassing the others.
     
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  12. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The speakers look like the same design as on the Rift? I also saw that they have the prescription insert for it on Widmovr.com which is nice.
    Not sure on blurry mess, but I have the Rift so it looks good and easily readable. The god ray stuff like you said could bother others, but easily forgettable with the immersion.

    Did all the games play fine? How do far away things look? Were you able to keep 120hz and is there a setting to make it have better quality?
     
  13. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Hagrid, fire up Elite Dangerous or any VR cockpit game that has an instrument panel/instrumentation - all the small text, indicators, dials are a blurry mess when it comes to using the Rift or the Vive. The Index’s higher resolution makes everything much more readable - text isn’t a blurry mess.

    Yes, things also look noticeably cleaner/sharper for things further away. Not earth shatteringly so, but it is much better. I wish they had gone with even higher resolution panels ala the HP Reverb, but that probably would have limited the ability to use the 120Hz refresh and improved FOV as an option and still be able to drive it well enough by today’s GPU standards, so I can understand why they held off.

    The speakers on the Index are NOTHING like the Rift. While they may look similar at first glance, they are actually quite different. The original Rift had a great audio solution, but they used normal headphone pads ala a pair of good quality portable headphones where the pads rest lightly against your ears. They required the earpads to be in direct contact with your ears just like wearing a normal pair of real headphones if you wanted good sound. On the Index, they are much beefier and like a mini speaker system - they don’t touch your ears at all, but rather float above and away from your ears, never touching them. This makes a huge difference. The sound they produce is also much better. They are very clear and have real bass that is impactful and tight. If turned up, they don’t distort and can become almost too loud. On a 1 to 10 scale, the original Rift was a solid 8 when it came to sound. With the Index it is more like 9.5.

    Yes, very easy to maintain a 120Hz refresh in everything I’ve played, but then I’m also driving it with an OC’ed 2080Ti that’s on water. Probably needs at least a 1080Ti to do 120Hz in most games. Yes, SteamVR now has built in settings to override both refresh and super sampling in all games. I haven’t encountered any issues with games not working.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  14. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Here's a pretty good through-the-lens comparison of text for the Rift S, HP Reverb and the Valve Index:

    comparison1.png

    And zoomed in a bit:

    Comparison2.png
    The Reverb is obviously the most crisp and pretty much eliminates the screen door effect. The Index is a close second, followed by the Rift S, which has the most apparent screen door effect still.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  15. VulcaN

    VulcaN [H]ard|Gawd

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    The most crisp in the center, but in that same video when you watch the cars passing by the driver, it looks like the index has a crisper FOV all around even if its not as clear as the reverb in the center.

    Hard pass on the reverb at the moment with all the issues people are reporting. Might check out the Acer OJO if it doesnt tank as hard.
    At a $300 price point it would be easier to accept a shitty WMR headset (with a really high resolution) as a dedicated seated sim headset, but at the moment its just not worth it when the index is delivering so well on so many levels (outside of the thumbstick issue :\ ).
     
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  16. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Ya, the Reverb seems to suffer from a bit more pronounced chromatic abbreviation in its images as well, especially when you move your eyes away from center. That and the rather poor choice of using/integrating WMR controllers have turned off lots of VR gamer/enthusiasts. HP has admitted that they really designed it primarily for business users... Still, I'm glad they produced it as it is helping to further drive VR display tech forward.

    I'm really happy with my Index. They really did get a lot of things right - way more so than any other offering. It definitely is the best overall VR system out there right now. But, it is also way too pricey still for mass adoption. Hopefully Valve will drop the price come the holiday season in similar fashion to what Oculus did with the Rift. That should help drive sales once all the early adopters have weighed in. Where Valve is going to make more money in the long run (not like they are hurting though!) is in VR software sales, not in the hardware itself. So hopefully they'll start to bring the price down to something more reasonable soon. They also need to hurry up and get those three VR games they said they were working on out soon as well... I'm thinking we'll see a big hardware price drop where they also release and bundle some new Valve produced VR games with the system as well come this holiday season. If they price it right, say $499-599 for the system, they will sell a ton of them.
     
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  17. CMDR1337

    CMDR1337 n00b

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    hopefully more real than HalfLife 3 !
     
  18. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    Ok, if you have a new Valve Index and access to a 3D printer, then this is a pretty cool little mod...

    Valve_Index.jpg

    Basically a pop on replacement for the Index's headset adjustment knob. Genius! :)

    Source: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3772599
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  19. Johnny78

    Johnny78 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Worth the upgrade?

    For those of you with the Valve Index, I'm wondering if it's worth the upgrade from my current set up. I've waiting on a purchase notification for the controllers, but I'm going back and forth in my head whether I should get the headset as well. I'm currently using a Vive Pro. I've done the Gear VR lens mod so I don't deal with the Fresnel Lenses. That simple mod helped immensely with screen clarity.

    Pro and Cons as far as I can tell are as follows:

    Pros for Index:

    1. Although both headsets are the same resolution, the Index has a better sub pixel arrangement so image in theory should be a little clearer. (I'm not sure if Index uses Fresnel lenses or not. I enjoyed my Vive pro much more after switching out the fresnel lenses.)

    2. Field of view is better 130 vs 110 degrees.

    3. Better refresh rate. 120 vs 90

    3. Audio might be a little better (just a guess)

    Cons against Index

    1. Screen is LCD vs Oled on Pro. (blacks won't be as crisp)

    2. I have to go back to being wired. I have the wireless adapter for the Pro and it works amazingly well. It was a real game changer as far as immersion goes and I would hate to go back to a wired set up.


    Controller = Wash

    I plan on getting the Index controllers so it's a non issue either way.



    Anyway, for those with experience with both, would losing the wireless component, (which is huge), be worth the upgrade in headset quality/features? I'm not sure. Obviously if we know the Index is getting a wireless adapter soon, it might make the decision easier for me. Thanks.
     
  20. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    You've pretty much covered the basics as to pros/cons.

    Yes, audio is also better on the Index then the Vive Pro in that it doesn't touch or come in contact with your ears - but sounds really, really good. Bass is incredibly tight/solid. This is probably one of the Index's biggest advantages over the Pro.

    The screen is also sharper/clearer on the Index due to the sub-pixel arrangement geometry of the LCD, so yes a bit of an advantage as you mentioned, but not a huge one, more like a refinement.

    Another pro would be the overall comfort level is higher on the Index.

    But all said and done, I wouldn't say it's a huge upgrade, so the relative "worth" is somewhat subjective. Overall it is a better HMD as those little "better" pieces/parts do add up...

    Yes, you would loose wireless, so if that's really important to you, I'd say hold off. But if you really love VR, want the best HMD without spending $5K+ on one and can live without going wireless for a while, then I'd recommend upgrading to the Index.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
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  21. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Index packaging. Surprised no one here has noticed, yet, unless I missed it.

    upload_2019-8-1_16-39-12.png
     
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  22. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    Got my Index kit in and been playing around.

    Pro's:
    1. HMD is comfortable, like the extra foam back-head pad.
    2. Sound is good. Although not as good sound as my high end IEM's, it's still acceptable and not having anything in or on ones ear is super nice.
    3. Although the resolution is the "same" as the Vive Pro, switching to RGB pixels from Pentile has made a nice little clarity bump. This is also resulted in slightly less screen door effect.
    4. Liking 144 Hz smoothness.
    5. Tracking seems extremely good with the new controllers.
    6. The cable is quite a bit longer than my HP Reverb's which is nice.
    7. Just slight improvement in perceivable FOV.
    8. Controllers are better than the original Vive's, but I still have to get used to this weird angle that you have to point with.

    Con's:
    1. They sent me an HMD with a bright stuck sub-pixel in the right display visible on black background. Probably going to have to RMA.
    2. Definite hit in colors/contrast/black levels going to LCD from OLED. Games just don't have the same "pop".
    3. A little bit more motion smear with the LCD panels versus OLED.

    I'm modding my Vive Pro with Odyssey+ panels and non-Fresnel lenses so it will be interesting to see which I like better in the end.
     
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  23. atarumoroboshi18

    atarumoroboshi18 [H]Lite

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    Okay after a while(and getting used to the new HMD and Index Controllers), I've found that it's quite enjoyable. I find I'm vastly more accurate in H3VR with the Index. The Index controllers take TIME to get used to, but it's definitely worth it.
     
  24. Hagrid

    Hagrid [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Have you tried night time Onward or Arizona Sunshine in the caves? I have heard in other places that the dark are not as good, but would like more of a scale.
     
  25. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    I think I am going back to using my IEM's. The over the ear speakers are decent but I need to turn them too loud to get the same effect and you don't get the bass of IEM's.
     
  26. kalston

    kalston Gawd

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    The "speakers" of the Index only go down to about 40hz (that's the specs they give) which isn't very low compared to a good pair of headphones/IEMs or a good speaker setup tbh. And being so "open" in design has got to reduce the impact for sure.
     
  27. Supercharged_Z06

    Supercharged_Z06 2[H]4U

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    If you are truly trying to get great low frequency sound (LFS) out of your VR setup, then there are much better ways of going about it then dropping the Index's sound system with its excellent off the ears solution and resorting to IEMs.

    As sound frequency drops below 80 Hz, it becomes impossible to use timing or level differences in your ears to determine the LFS lateral source/direction. This is primarily because phase differences at such low freqs simply become too small to distinguish for directional evaluation, so just placing that LFS in your ear canal sort of kills it as to really being able to feel those low freqs with not just your ears but also with your entire body for the best immersion possible. A much better solution is to keep the Index's sound in place with its off the ears solution and just mirror your output to a good sub with a crossover network in your room so that you get the best LFS you can experience in VR. It's a much more impactful for rumble/explosions/gunfire/etc - like actually being in the VR environment you are seeing/experiencing. Wearing IEMs really diminishes/kills that immersion. Anyway, it's what I use for standing VR experiences (using a SVS PB12-Ultra/2) and for seated/cockpit VR, I also introduce a couple of low frequency transducers/shakers which are built into my cockpit setup.

    If you are in an apartment though or have a cranky spouse that isn't into VR, then I can see why you'd have to resort to IEMs. Still, I think the Index does sound a whole heck of a lot better than any other VR system out there right now... its fully integrated and doesn't touch your ears. I still feel it is one of the Index's best features and underated. Also remember that the Index speakers are adjustable - be sure to orient them so they are sitting just off each ear and are aligned properly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
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  28. Swolern

    Swolern Limp Gawd

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  29. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    So I just got done modifying my Vive Pro with the andi-SDE "Odyssey+" OLED panels and also added the non Fresnel GearVR lenses. Hardly any SDE, no god rays and the color/contrast beats out the Index.

    I'm going to do more A/B comparison but I think the modified Vive Pro may be the better headset. Keeping the Index controllers though!
     
  30. RazorWind

    RazorWind 2[H]4U

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    Where do you get the Odyssey+ panels from? You have to buy and gut an Odyssey+?
     
  31. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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  32. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    So I've spent quite a few hours playing games back and forth between my modded Vive Pro (Odyssey+ OLED panel transplant [same panels as Vive Pro but with anti-SDE layer] + GearVR non Fresnel lenses) and the Index and here is what I came up with:

    Vive Pro Positive:
    1. Black levels.
    2. Contrast.
    3. Colors.
    4. Clarity - mainly due to GearVR lenses. Yay for non-Fresnel!
    5. Basically no god-rays.
    6. No ghosting/trailing of objects under movement (OLED needs no overdrive). This makes up a lot for the lower 90 Hz refresh rate.
    7. No pixel inversion artifacts.
    8. USB-C DAC can plug in right at the face side/top of the headset out of the way.
    9. Anti-SDE layer on the OLED panels makes up for the worse pentile panel matrix.
    10. Can't see the edges of the panels.

    Vive Pro Negatives:
    1. Slight "graininess" viewable from the anti-SDE layer on the Odyssey+ OLED's versus the stock Vive Pro OLED's without the layer.
    2. Less FoV than the Index.
    3. Slight barrel distortion that needs to be fixed with a .cfg edit.
    4. Maybe slightly more eye fatigue, still trying to narrow this down but it's hard when switching back and forth between headsets as eye fatigue doesn't go away quickly.

    Wash:
    1. Index's speakers definitely kill the Vive Pro's but it is a wash for me due to still using high end IEM's. Even though they Index speakers are decent, they cannot compare to the IEM's.
    2. Index is more comfortable than a stock Vive Pro, but the Vive Pro is comparable once you put aftermarket padding on it.
    3. Sweet spot seem comparable and no real issue with either.

    Index Positives:
    1. Wider FoV.
    2. No barrel or other world geometry issues.
    3. Low SDE due to the full RGB panels instead of pentile.
    4. 120/144Hz gives a slightly better motion smoothness.
    5, Possible less eye fatigue.

    Index Negatives:
    1. Vertical lines during movement caused by LCD pixel inversion. Seriously annoying.
    2. Clarity, static viewing is around modded Vive Pro levels but the vertical line issue makes everything look worse in motion.
    3. Colors.
    4. Contrast.
    5. Black levels.
    6. Obvious ghosting due to much slower LCD pixels.
    7. God rays a-plenty.
    8. USB DAC has to plug in the frunk, leading to some messy cable routing for IEM's.
    9. The Fresnel lenses of the Index just don't give you that clarity of the modded Vive Pro.
    10. Can see the "squaring off" of the edges of the panels.


    It would be interesting to test the Index again if someone finds a non-Fresnel lens mod for it. Overall the modded Vive Pro OLED image "pop", non Fresnel lens clarity and no movement anomalies like the Index's vertical lines make it a fairly clear winner for me. LCD just can't compete with OLED and clear lenses.
     
  33. Lifelite

    Lifelite [H]ardness Supreme

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    Almost seems like you'd be better off with your old Vive and just getting the knuckles controllers separately...
     
  34. Vega

    Vega [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ya I am waiting to see what Valve says about my stuck green pixel. If they RMA, I will just sell the new one they send me as a replacement. I'll keep the Index controllers and sell off the V2 lighthouses as well (since my Vive Pro already came with V2 lighthouses).
     
  35. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    Mine arrived today. I managed to set it up, then immediately realized I don't have any games for it. Not a single of the VR games that I have its controllers :/

    Recommend me some games. I tried the free Aircar game. It's ok but gives me nausea when I hover too low. Got Project CARS 2 but I am not sure about controller support :/
     
  36. mazeroth

    mazeroth Limp Gawd

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    Try In Death, if you like archery games. It's awesome.
     
  37. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    Are you looking for "VR games" (ie games near exclusively designed for VR, either sit-stand or room-scale) or are you also open to "Games that happen to have a VR Mode" (ie Games like some flight sims, racing etc.. that have at least partial VR support)?

    I too was looking for some VR titles and here are some of those I found - I've not tested these out as of yet but it is my general list of what seem to be well-regarded "full" VR titles.

    Gorn - Humorous gladiator combat title
    Budget Cuts - Stealth-action title where the player is the last human at an all robot company and is about to be forcefully "downsized". Almost a "Portal-ish" title in terms of theme
    Job Simulator and Vacation Simulator - These are humorous VR mini-game setups predicated on what future AIs think humans did all day
    Duck Season - Suspense-Horror-Action story of the player as a kid in the 90s getting a "totally not a NES with Duck Hunt" game system where nothing is as it seems...
    Arizona Sunshine - Story based zombie survival action combat title, comprehensive and cited as the best of the zombie genre in VR
    Beat Saber - Perhaps the best known of the VR music titles, use your virtual lightsabers to slice the beats as they come along
    Thumper - Another VR music title, not unlike Audiosurf or other "music riding" games but now in VR!
    Sairento VR - Cyber ninja parkour combat action! If you ever wanted to be VR "Raiden" from Metal Gear Solid / Rising, or enact scenes from "The Matrix" or "Equilibrium", this is the title for you!
    Superhot VR - VR version of the unique low-res cyberpunk combat title, rebuilt from the ground up!
    VR Chat - The free VR socializing sandbox! A great title to try out!
    VR Kanojo - High quality, Japanese-made "virtual girlfriend" experience. I mention it for completeness' sake and because unlike so many other porn-ish games it is actually well made. The Steam version by default has some of the more adult scenes censored, which can be unlocked with a free patch from the devs if you wish.

    So that should get you started. There are other titles out there, but I hear these are some of the better ones depending on what you're seeking.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  38. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    I've already played Skyrim, Star Trek, Doom, Job Simulator on the Vive/Rift. Mostly looking for the classic stationary experience but room scale is not off the table. Waiting for the 5700 blower cards for my living room HTPC

    Now that you mentioned Duck Hunt, I'd totally play something like Virtua Cop with those controllers. I find the triggers a bit uncomfortable for racing but they might end up ok for a shooter.

    I really wanted to try the Talos principle and Distance (both are amazing games btw) but they don't support the controllers. Pretty much nothing does. Guess I'll have to use my Xbox controllers.
     
  39. atarumoroboshi18

    atarumoroboshi18 [H]Lite

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    H3VR. Hotdogs, Horseshoes, and Handgrenades. A Fantastic gun simulator that's well worth the $20 for it.
     
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  40. LurkerLito

    LurkerLito 2[H]4U

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    If you are looking for a Virtua Cop like game I recommend:
    It's also pretty darn cheap.

    edit: weird the forum linked to an image with a different image, but if you click it, it brings up the right web page and price of $8.99. I think that image is for if you run a VR arcade or something.
     
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