Right to repair executive order

sfsuphysics said:
Yup, but the issue was never with something being tricky, i.e. not knowing how to remove a panel inside a car etc., it's having said machinery effectively brick itself if it detects "unlicensed repair"
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I'd hope the executive order would cover that.

I suppose the courts will determine the level of enforcement
 
wizzi01 said:
Uh, it's called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
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Based on my reading of the act (which I'll admit is neither comprehensive nor recent) it requires that if a warranty is offered, said warranty cannot be voided if 3rd party repairs are performed. (Unless they can show that those repairs were the cause)

It doesn't to my recollection include anything about requiring the manufacturer to provide information or parts for sale to make those repairs possible.
 
wizzi01 said:
John Deere should have made a basic code clearer. Them not doing that cost the farmers money and crops. Apparently, you don't mess with agriculture, because they are pretty much at the fore front of right to repair.
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There is a reason that equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars should be serviced by the dealer.

I'm all for right-to-repair, but I would hazard a guess that the farmers complaining about this don't actually have the equipment or know-how to properly repair their super-expensive farm equipment.

Just you wait. If John Deere at some point starts selling code clearers and the like, then the farmers will be screaming and hollering when their equipment really breaks down and costs a butt-load of cash to get repaired because they just kept clearing the codes instead of actually repairing the small issues before they cause catastrophic failure.

And catastrophic failure in farm equipment can easily lead to maiming or death.
 
cyclone3d said:
There is a reason that equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars should be serviced by the dealer.

I'm all for right-to-repair, but I would hazard a guess that the farmers complaining about this don't actually have the equipment or know-how to properly repair their super-expensive farm equipment.

Just you wait. If John Deere at some point starts selling code clearers and the like, then the farmers will be screaming and hollering when their equipment really breaks down and costs a butt-load of cash to get repaired because they just kept clearing the codes instead of actually repairing the small issues before they cause catastrophic failure.

And catastrophic failure in farm equipment can easily lead to maiming or death.
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Have you read up on the issue? Farmers literally have to wait for the dealer to send a mechanic just to clear a code for them to use their equipment.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Based on my reading of the act (which I'll admit is neither comprehensive nor recent) it requires that if a warranty is offered, said warranty cannot be voided if 3rd party repairs are performed. (Unless they can show that those repairs were the cause)

It doesn't to my recollection include anything about requiring the manufacturer to provide information or parts for sale to make those repairs possible.
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It also allows the consumer to use 3rd party parts.

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/do...g_the_fix_report_final_5521_630pm-508_002.pdf
 
wizzi01 said:
Farmers literally have to wait for the dealer to send a mechanic just to clear a code for them to use their equipment.
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Sometimes weeks, during harvest season, the one time of year they *can't* wait, because they can't get a 3rd-party person to do it, and John Deere doesn't have anyone available. But, y'know, "they might break" the thing they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on and heaven forfend they be allowed to take that chance on their own property.

The solution seems to be for someone else to get into the market that doesn't play these games, although there's a really high cost of entry.
 
I noticed these f***ers have gotten dirtier with their tactics. Try and sell after market parts on ebay. Use the make/model of the car its for, get a take down notice because it's not OEM (as stated in the listing). It's some BS.
 
HockeyJon said:
I still love how these companies purposefully try to make products as difficult as possible to repair in order to encourage disposal, and then pretend to care about the environment.
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Yep

"We didn't include a power adapter because we care about the environment and you already have one"

I already have a phone but the battery is shot and can't be replaced. If they cared about the environment they would have replaceable batteries.

And they also brag about how the phone will charge even faster than any other previous model, but only with a new power adapter that isn't included lol.
 
SecretStash said:
Doesn't matter who the next president is. I can't imagine them trying to get rid of it unless there is some hardcore and shady business deals that would get exposed easily. Too much risk IMHO.

Btw, YouTube makes car repair easy. Just search your car make, model, year, and problem and there's likely a video for your problem. Sometimes the video covers multiple years (implicitly or explicitly sometimes). Don't have to know much. From taking to farmers, they do know how to repair and the John Deere locks are absurd. Crazy stories.
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Speaking of cars, this is exactly how I learned to the following jobs myself: oil changes, spark plug changes, filter changes, ATF changes, rear dif and transfer case fluid changes, headlight changes, and an early model defect with a part in my shifter. Save me hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Next is learning how to replace my brake rotors and pads because those are next, and in about 20k more miles...coolant.

Not saying its easy, but if I had easy access to parts like phone batteries, I would definitely take the time to learn how to replace it and keep my phone going. Its a perfectly fine phone, with only the battery performance degrading over time. Why send it to e-waste? Like many other things, the fact that expensive electronics are seen as a short term throw away item is absurd.

But even if I didn't want to do the job myself, why shouldn't that market of shops exist with an easy supply chain of parts?
 
cyclone3d said:
There is a reason that equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars should be serviced by the dealer.

I'm all for right-to-repair, but I would hazard a guess that the farmers complaining about this don't actually have the equipment or know-how to properly repair their super-expensive farm equipment.

Just you wait. If John Deere at some point starts selling code clearers and the like, then the farmers will be screaming and hollering when their equipment really breaks down and costs a butt-load of cash to get repaired because they just kept clearing the codes instead of actually repairing the small issues before they cause catastrophic failure.

And catastrophic failure in farm equipment can easily lead to maiming or death.
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Just because there may be some idiot who tries to open up a jar of pickles with a hammer doesn't mean no one should be able to buy hammers.

Case in point OBD readers for cars, something as simple as you accidentally not tightening the gas cap down all the way. CHECK ENGINE! Now imagine if your car doesn't work until a mechanic comes to see what the problem is and clears the code.
 
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Johnx64 said:
Sometimes I try the repair myself when it's broken. Since it's already broken I don't considered it a loss it's now an opportunity to learn something new. Sure it may have been repairable by a pro but they only became good at what they're doing with practice and learning from mistakes. If I fail at least I will know maybe that type of repair isn't for me maybe I just learned what not to do for next time or maybe it was a success and I saved myself money and learned something in the process. It all depends on how you look at it.
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I did that too till I accidentally punctured a battery trying to replace it on a Samsung Galaxy some 2 years back. Got a lung full of burning lithium soot. Still finding that magnetic crap all over my office stuck to various things.
 
Sir Beregond said:
Not saying its easy, but if I had easy access to parts like phone batteries, I would definitely take the time to learn how to replace it and keep my phone going. Its a perfectly fine phone
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If you watch some YT videos, the most difficult thing seems to be having a heat gun (or the like) to melt the glue holding phones together. Past that point, it's mostly a matter of removing all the screws and not forgetting which one goes where.
 
In spirit, this is a pretty good EO, in actual practice, availability of chips is availability of chips. And the likes of John Deere and Apple will find a way to make "unauthorized" repairs as near impossible as possible regardless of any EO and which regime is in power.
I never did business with Apple, and I have no intention of ever doing business with JohnDeere again. I'll stick with grey market Yanmars and cheap flip phones.
 
Gorankar said:
In spirit, this is a pretty good EO, in actual practice, availability of chips is availability of chips. And the likes of John Deere and Apple will find a way to make "unauthorized" repairs as near impossible as possible regardless of any EO and which regime is in power.
I never did business with Apple, and I have no intention of ever doing business with JohnDeere again. I'll stick with grey market Yanmars and cheap flip phones.
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This has been happening well before the chip shortage.
 
Gorankar said:
In spirit, this is a pretty good EO, in actual practice, availability of chips is availability of chips. And the likes of John Deere and Apple will find a way to make "unauthorized" repairs as near impossible as possible regardless of any EO and which regime is in power.
I never did business with Apple, and I have no intention of ever doing business with JohnDeere again. I'll stick with grey market Yanmars and cheap flip phones.
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As long as the FTC writes the rules competently (I know, that's a long shot) Apple and John Deere won't be able to do much. Apple already solders everything they possibly can onto the boards in their phones and they really can't just make batteries totally unremovable or they'll be giving up their own refurbishing and reselling business. Even with parts, repairing iPhones and even most Mac computers is already beyond what most people can do. Right-to-repair is really mostly helpful for getting away from stupid things like Apple locking out features when repairs are done outside of an "authorized" center and giving professional repair shops easier access to parts across the board. John Deere won't be able to make and then not provide propriety crap, including the tools to clear pointless errors. They can still make it hard or nearly impossible for the average owner to repair, but they'd be forced to provide tools and parts to 3rd parties.

There are ways companies can find to get around it somewhat, but (done well) it will still be a massive improvement over what we have now. Assuming anything the FTC does survives a court battle.
 
sharknice said:
Yep

"We didn't include a power adapter because we care about the environment and you already have one"

I already have a phone but the battery is shot and can't be replaced. If they cared about the environment they would have replaceable batteries.

And they also brag about how the phone will charge even faster than any other previous model, but only with a new power adapter that isn't included lol.
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And even then, it'll only charge fast until the next model comes out and it gets an update.
 
Derangel said:
As long as the FTC writes the rules competently (I know, that's a long shot) Apple and John Deere won't be able to do much. Apple already solders everything they possibly can onto the boards in their phones and they really can't just make batteries totally unremovable or they'll be giving up their own refurbishing and reselling business. Even with parts, repairing iPhones and even most Mac computers is already beyond what most people can do. Right-to-repair is really mostly helpful for getting away from stupid things like Apple locking out features when repairs are done outside of an "authorized" center and giving professional repair shops easier access to parts across the board. John Deere won't be able to make and then not provide propriety crap, including the tools to clear pointless errors. They can still make it hard or nearly impossible for the average owner to repair, but they'd be forced to provide tools and parts to 3rd parties.

There are ways companies can find to get around it somewhat, but (done well) it will still be a massive improvement over what we have now. Assuming anything the FTC does survives a court battle.
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People seem to forget this. "Right to repair" doesn't mean "easy to repair." And nor should it; whatever motives you ascribe to Apple's sealed-in batteries or glued parts, I don't think regulation should extend so far that it governs every last nuance of design. Swappable batteries and easily replaced parts are nice-to-haves, not must-haves like safety.
 
Aurelius said:
People seem to forget this. "Right to repair" doesn't mean "easy to repair." And nor should it; whatever motives you ascribe to Apple's sealed-in batteries or glued parts, I don't think regulation should extend so far that it governs every last nuance of design. Swappable batteries and easily replaced parts are nice-to-haves, not must-haves like safety.
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and this is the key to how they would get around it anyway, not that it has a chance to actually become law. If it did, they would just start designing things in a way that you either destroy it trying to open it to repair it or start making them with parts that can't be replaced easily or at all. Like a phone, they would just start making one massive chip that controls everything aspect of the device so when any part of it breaks, you pretty much need a new phone anyway or a replacement main chip will cost as much as a new phone.

Anything to make you NOT want to have someone attempt repair but them or toss it in the bin and get a new one.
 
Bigbacon said:
and this is the key to how they would get around it anyway, not that it has a chance to actually become law. If it did, they would just start designing things in a way that you either destroy it trying to open it to repair it or start making them with parts that can't be replaced easily or at all. Like a phone, they would just start making one massive chip that controls everything aspect of the device so when any part of it breaks, you pretty much need a new phone anyway or a replacement main chip will cost as much as a new phone.

Anything to make you NOT want to have someone attempt repair but them or toss it in the bin and get a new one.
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I don't think Apple or other companies are necessarilyt that sinister, mind you. Apple wouldn't offer around five years of major iOS updates (or optimize for older devices) if it wanted to make you replace your iPhone every two to three years like clockwork. Rather, it's that Apple has certain objectives in mind (thin and light, among others) and doesn't want anything else getting in the way. Things like requiring particular sourcing for Touch ID and other parts... well, that's not so innocent, although there is an argument to be made that security-related elements should come from trusted sources.
 
Aurelius said:
I don't think Apple or other companies are necessarilyt that sinister, mind you. Apple wouldn't offer around five years of major iOS updates (or optimize for older devices) if it wanted to make you replace your iPhone every two to three years like clockwork. Rather, it's that Apple has certain objectives in mind (thin and light, among others) and doesn't want anything else getting in the way. Things like requiring particular sourcing for Touch ID and other parts... well, that's not so innocent, although there is an argument to be made that security-related elements should come from trusted sources.
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To be fair, Apple does give a reasonable explanation from their perspective. Their primary issue is that there apparently is an epidemic of scammers who are ripping the components out of newer hardware, sticking old hardware on to replace, and then reselling it. This is particularly an issue with screens in the iPhone. The problem then comes back to Apple when people are aggrieved and then they have to pay for it in one way or another. It's certainly a more reasonable argument than "batteries will explode in people's faces" or something equally dumb as that. Louis Rossman talks more about that on his channel where he argues that this particular issue could be lessened if Apple would let the component suppliers sell directly to third-parties instead of holding it all back for themselves.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Based on my reading of the act (which I'll admit is neither comprehensive nor recent) it requires that if a warranty is offered, said warranty cannot be voided if 3rd party repairs are performed. (Unless they can show that those repairs were the cause)

It doesn't to my recollection include anything about requiring the manufacturer to provide information or parts for sale to make those repairs possible.
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"Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty."

In the example of farmers - The only way to repair your John Deere tractor legally is to have John Deere come to your site to fix it, and they will only use John Deere branded parts. To be in compliance with the law, John Deere must allow farmers to repair their equipment using non-branded parts. In order to repair your tractor within the warranty period, using non-branded parts, requires access to the software tools, which John Deere currently does not provide.

Same concept can be applied to many other things, like Apple not allowing vendors to sell specific charge chips required for iPhones, and so on.
 
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I don't think even repairs with John Deere parts were allowed. One farmer said that the tractor is disabled by software, so after it's fixed they still had to sometimes fly in an official John Deere service man to a remote area to unlock it, which would suck during harvest, since that's time sensitive.

Their only recourse was to just download Ukrainian firmware if they didn't want to wait for the service man to come. Apparently farmers have to sometimes resort to hacking too.

Anyways, allowing third party parts and keeping the warranty is a big deal
 
cyclone3d said:
There is a reason that equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars should be serviced by the dealer.

I'm all for right-to-repair, but I would hazard a guess that the farmers complaining about this don't actually have the equipment or know-how to properly repair their super-expensive farm equipment.

Just you wait. If John Deere at some point starts selling code clearers and the like, then the farmers will be screaming and hollering when their equipment really breaks down and costs a butt-load of cash to get repaired because they just kept clearing the codes instead of actually repairing the small issues before they cause catastrophic failure.

And catastrophic failure in farm equipment can easily lead to maiming or death.
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it is EXTREMELY clear you dont know a damn thing about farming
 
sunruh said:
it is EXTREMELY clear you dont know a damn thing about farming
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No, but I do have an idea about people always wanting to just clear error codes to keep going. Generally if there is an error code it means there is something that actually needs to be fixed.

How many farmers are actually certified repair technicians for John Deere equipment?

I've watched a decent amount of videos about the reasoning and for these farmers to be able to not have to have a John Deere tech fix their stuff and it always came across like they just didn't want to pay to have their stuff fixed.

Then there is also the warranty issues with people jacking with their equipment and voiding the warranty.
 
Had a friend that drove his car for 2 years with the check engine signal on. So yeah, I could see what you're saying.
 
SecretStash said:
I don't think even repairs with John Deere parts were allowed. One farmer said that the tractor is disabled by software, so after it's fixed they still had to sometimes fly in an official John Deere service man to a remote area to unlock it, which would suck during harvest, since that's time sensitive.

Their only recourse was to just download Ukrainian firmware if they didn't want to wait for the service man to come. Apparently farmers have to sometimes resort to hacking too.

Anyways, allowing third party parts and keeping the warranty is a big deal
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Exactly, and let's not forget that some of this farming equipment is hundreds of thousands of dollars. A warranty on something like that is important when your livelihood depends on it working without just going out and buying a replacement.
 
cyclone3d said:
No, but I do have an idea about people always wanting to just clear error codes to keep going. Generally if there is an error code it means there is something that actually needs to be fixed.

How many farmers are actually certified repair technicians for John Deere equipment?

I've watched a decent amount of videos about the reasoning and for these farmers to be able to not have to have a John Deere tech fix their stuff and it always came across like they just didn't want to pay to have their stuff fixed.

Then there is also the warranty issues with people jacking with their equipment and voiding the warranty.
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Have you ever driven your car with a check engine light on? Every time that it happens doesn't mean that there's something that needs to be fixed or that it needs to be fixed right this second or someone is going to die. And are you going to wait a week or more and not drive your car while waiting for a tech to fly out and fix your problem (which may be nothing more than a bad sensor reading or sensor).
 
cyclone3d said:
No, but I do have an idea about people always wanting to just clear error codes to keep going. Generally if there is an error code it means there is something that actually needs to be fixed.

How many farmers are actually certified repair technicians for John Deere equipment?

I've watched a decent amount of videos about the reasoning and for these farmers to be able to not have to have a John Deere tech fix their stuff and it always came across like they just didn't want to pay to have their stuff fixed.

Then there is also the warranty issues with people jacking with their equipment and voiding the warranty.
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You and others are saying things out of woeful ignorance on the subject. Do a little research first - even if just a few articles on the subject. Its way more involved then what you are making it out to be as a "check engine light" kind of deal. Goes way deeper and way beyond this with the lengths companys like John Deere are going in order to screw over farmers for even simple repairs and things like replaceable modules, spare parts, etc.
 
Like I already said, I've watched multiple videos on the subject. Probably been a couple years but everything I watched and read about it gave me the impression that there wasn't a good reason for the farmers to go around John Deere's repair processes.

The same people that are complaining about it continue to buy John Deere equipment.

They can always vote with their wallet but for some of the equipment, especially the really large equipment I don't think there is really an alternative.
 
cyclone3d said:
Like I already said, I've watched multiple videos on the subject. Probably been a couple years but everything I watched and read about it gave me the impression that there wasn't a good reason for the farmers to go around John Deere's repair processes.

The same people that are complaining about it continue to buy John Deere equipment.

They can always vote with their wallet but for some of the equipment, especially the really large equipment I don't think there is really an alternative.
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If someone was capable and willing to work on there own equipment why would they want to utilize John Deere's service?

Your comments come off on someone who has never worked on any equipment of any sorts. The price of the equipment matters very little. Serviceability is a essential part of the equipments operation.

Many owners of heavy equipment are capable of properly servicing or already have infrastructure setup to service it.
 
cyclone3d said:
No, but I do have an idea about people always wanting to just clear error codes to keep going. Generally if there is an error code it means there is something that actually needs to be fixed.

How many farmers are actually certified repair technicians for John Deere equipment?

I've watched a decent amount of videos about the reasoning and for these farmers to be able to not have to have a John Deere tech fix their stuff and it always came across like they just didn't want to pay to have their stuff fixed.

Then there is also the warranty issues with people jacking with their equipment and voiding the warranty.
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So, you still haven't even researched the issue yet.
 
cyclone3d said:
No, but I do have an idea about people always wanting to just clear error codes to keep going. Generally if there is an error code it means there is something that actually needs to be fixed.

How many farmers are actually certified repair technicians for John Deere equipment?

I've watched a decent amount of videos about the reasoning and for these farmers to be able to not have to have a John Deere tech fix their stuff and it always came across like they just didn't want to pay to have their stuff fixed.

Then there is also the warranty issues with people jacking with their equipment and voiding the warranty.
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I'm going to have to assume that you're okay with your car showing the check engine light and shutting itself down no matter where you're at and not allowing you to use it until a certified technician is contacted and comes by to fix it. Oh, that also goes for oil changes and you can't change your own oil. You can't replace your own brakes either. Battery? Nope, you'll need to go to the dealer to have that replaced. Just how well is that going to work for you and everyone else?

Also, what happens when the warranty on your car or John Deere farm equipment runs out? Just going to junk it and get a new whatever?

Stop and think for even a single moment and you'll figure out that any support for no right to repair is flat out stupid. Well, unless you work for John Deere and get paid in John Deere stock.
 
cdabc123 said:
If someone was capable and willing to work on there own equipment why would they want to utilize John Deere's service?

Your comments come off on someone who has never worked on any equipment of any sorts. The price of the equipment matters very little. Serviceability is a essential part of the equipments operation.

Many owners of heavy equipment are capable of properly servicing or already have infrastructure setup to service it.
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I've been working on vehicles since before I was 12.

I also service and repair and even fabricate parts for my personal lawn / yard equipment.

I've rebuilt gasoline and diesel engines, transmissions, etc.

Huge diesel equipment is a whole other story though.

Say you have a turbo diesel. Say the computer detects a small oil leak into the intake. If the user just keeps resetting the code, that oil leak is eventually going to get bad enough to cause a runaway situation which at the very least can lead to a crash and at the worst lead to an engine self destructing and possibly maiming or killing someone.

There are also going to be other mechanical issues that can potentially cause maiming or death.

IMHO, John Deere has a pretty good reason to limit the repairs on their equipment.

And as for 3rd party parts for large equipment.. who exactly is going to verify that those parts are of the same quality as the genuine parts?

Would you want some crap Chinesium metal being responsible for the same type of forces that the genuine parts are?
 
cyclone3d said:
Like I already said, I've watched multiple videos on the subject. Probably been a couple years but everything I watched and read about it gave me the impression that there wasn't a good reason for the farmers to go around John Deere's repair processes.

The same people that are complaining about it continue to buy John Deere equipment.

They can always vote with their wallet but for some of the equipment, especially the really large equipment I don't think there is really an alternative.
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Seriously, do some more reading... something beyond a few quick skims of a video. Again, you sound very ignorant on this subject. Monopolistic and completely closed/locked down repairs/services for ALL aspects of the equipment you own is NOT a good thing.
 
SmokeRngs said:
I'm going to have to assume that you're okay with your car showing the check engine light and shutting itself down no matter where you're at and not allowing you to use it until a certified technician is contacted and comes by to fix it. Oh, that also goes for oil changes and you can't change your own oil. You can't replace your own brakes either. Battery? Nope, you'll need to go to the dealer to have that replaced. Just how well is that going to work for you and everyone else?

Also, what happens when the warranty on your car or John Deere farm equipment runs out? Just going to junk it and get a new whatever?

Stop and think for even a single moment and you'll figure out that any support for no right to repair is flat out stupid. Well, unless you work for John Deere and get paid in John Deere stock.
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Nope. In fact the check engine light is on in my car right now. It is because at least one of the Catalytic converters needs to be replaced.

We don't have any type of emissions tests around here and it doesn't affect power or dual mileage so I never bothered replacing it.

Sure I believe that some stuff should be able to be replaced by the users of John Deere equipment.. just not the stuff that can cause major issues if left unchecked.

However, if the equipment is still under warranty, I would rather have the mfg service / repair my super expensive equipment instead of voiding the warranty.

There has to be some balance between the users' repairing stuff and the mfg repairing stuff.
 
cybereality said:
Had a friend that drove his car for 2 years with the check engine signal on. So yeah, I could see what you're saying.
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so have i, my gas cap doesnt seal 100% all the time, big whoop. if the car shut down and refused to start until subaru came and serviced it(tightened the cap and cleared the code), id be pissed.
 
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