Right to repair executive order

[Gideon]

Farmers created their own nightmare by being cheap and doing improper repairs on their equipment, which then lead to larger failures and wanted it covered under warranty. Farmers need their equipment during harvesting and will often rig something to get the harvest done and cause far more damage to the unit. John Deere may have gone overboard to protect the equipment from such repairs, however farmers brought this nightmare on themselves, somewhere there is a happy middle ground but both are going to fight for the extreme opposite. Also farmers are horrible about ignoring equipment in the off season and then worrying about it 30 seconds before harvest season. There is a lot going on that lead to this problem and why farmers are screaming the loudest about it.

 

[bigdogchris]

Farmers created their own nightmare by being cheap and doing improper repairs on their equipment, which then lead to larger failures and wanted it covered under warranty. Farmers need their equipment during harvesting and will often rig something to get the harvest done and cause far more damage to the unit. John Deere may have gone overboard to protect the equipment from such repairs, however farmers brought this nightmare on themselves, somewhere there is a happy middle ground but both are going to fight for the extreme opposite. Also farmers are horrible about ignoring equipment in the off season and then worrying about it 30 seconds before harvest season. There is a lot going on that lead to this problem and why farmers are screaming the loudest about it.

I'm curious if you could provide some insight into how you obtained this information.

 

[SmokeRngs]

Farmers created their own nightmare by being cheap and doing improper repairs on their equipment, which then lead to larger failures and wanted it covered under warranty. Farmers need their equipment during harvesting and will often rig something to get the harvest done and cause far more damage to the unit. John Deere may have gone overboard to protect the equipment from such repairs, however farmers brought this nightmare on themselves, somewhere there is a happy middle ground but both are going to fight for the extreme opposite. Also farmers are horrible about ignoring equipment in the off season and then worrying about it 30 seconds before harvest season. There is a lot going on that lead to this problem and why farmers are screaming the loudest about it.

I have to wonder where you're getting this "information". Of the farmers I know (family) they take care of their equipment and make sure it's in good condition at all times because it's their livelihood. They do not run it into the ground expecting someone else to take care of it for them for free because they know that's not happening. They also know any problems not taken care of in a timely manner are going to become major problems and cause breakdowns later when it's likely to do the most damage.

Basically, most farmers I know have common sense.

 

[Lakados]

Farmers created their own nightmare by being cheap and doing improper repairs on their equipment, which then lead to larger failures and wanted it covered under warranty. Farmers need their equipment during harvesting and will often rig something to get the harvest done and cause far more damage to the unit. John Deere may have gone overboard to protect the equipment from such repairs, however farmers brought this nightmare on themselves, somewhere there is a happy middle ground but both are going to fight for the extreme opposite. Also farmers are horrible about ignoring equipment in the off season and then worrying about it 30 seconds before harvest season. There is a lot going on that lead to this problem and why farmers are screaming the loudest about it.

I remember JD and I want to say Kubota saying this is why they had to implement many of the measures they did but I am not sure about the overall accuracy of these statements, I am sure there were a few incidents where people tried to scam their warranties there always is but I am not sure they actually are as widespread as they claim they were.

 

[SvenBent]

I have to wonder where you're getting this "information". Of the farmers I know (family) they take care of their equipment and make sure it's in good condition at all times because it's their livelihood. They do not run it into the ground expecting someone else to take care of it for them for free because they know that's not happening. They also know any problems not taken care of in a timely manner are going to become major problems and cause breakdowns later when it's likely to do the most damage.

Basically, most farmers I know have common sense.

Man I dont know. I worked in retail with warranty claims. I've seen plenty of people with lack of common sense.. but i guess that is retail.. I did not get any farmer that I know off

 

[Gideon]

I'm curious if you could provide some insight into how you obtained this information.

Since a couple people asked I just picked yours. Worked in the industry for years and used to see warranty claims and you would be surprised by how many lack common sense when it comes to repairs and maintaining equipment. I could go into many details but I will give a example for now. Manufactures only recommend certain filters to be used due to the micron filtration needed and known good fail safe on the filter itself. Problem is these filters tend to be quite a bit more as they follow manufacturer guidelines and farmers almost always pick the cheapest ones they can find. In this example with a Cummins engine they recommended you should not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it was listed in the owners manual other filters to not use and ones you could, but people installed them anyway and the filters came apart and plugged the oiling system. Owners still wanted the engine covered despite ignoring warnings not to use Fram and it stating it will not be covered. This is one example but this improper part destroyed engines and was costing the manufacturer despite warnings not to do so, locking the owner out prevented the failure.

(edited to state it's a recommendation not to use Fram, however if it failed you were out any warranty claim to the OEM if that filter came apart)

 

[Lakados]

Since a couple people asked I just picked yours. Worked in the industry for years and used to see warranty claims and you would be surprised by how many lack common sense when it comes to repairs and maintaining equipment. I could go into many details but I will give a example for now. Manufactures only recommend certain filters to be used due to the micron filtration needed and known good fail safe on the filter itself. Problem is these filters tend to be quite a bit more as they follow manufacturer guidelines and farmers almost always pick the cheapest ones they can find. In this example with a Cummins engine you can not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it's listed in the owners manual as a filter to not use and people installed them anyway and the filters came apart and plugged the oiling system. Owners still wanted the engine covered despite ignoring warnings not to use Fram and it stating it will not be covered. This is one example but this improper part destroyed engines and was costing the manufacturer despite warnings not to do so, locking the owner out prevented the failure.

I’ve seen that on the logging trucks around here, and lots of impropriety repaired hydraulic’s.

 

[Armenius]

Since a couple people asked I just picked yours. Worked in the industry for years and used to see warranty claims and you would be surprised by how many lack common sense when it comes to repairs and maintaining equipment. I could go into many details but I will give a example for now. Manufactures only recommend certain filters to be used due to the micron filtration needed and known good fail safe on the filter itself. Problem is these filters tend to be quite a bit more as they follow manufacturer guidelines and farmers almost always pick the cheapest ones they can find. In this example with a Cummins engine you can not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it's listed in the owners manual as a filter to not use and people installed them anyway and the filters came apart and plugged the oiling system. Owners still wanted the engine covered despite ignoring warnings not to use Fram and it stating it will not be covered. This is one example but this improper part destroyed engines and was costing the manufacturer despite warnings not to do so, locking the owner out prevented the failure.

What made this engine so special as to require an expensive filter? I don't have any sympathy for people who don't RTFM, but I'm genuinely curious. Was there an explanation that accompanied the warning so people didn't think they were being bullshitted?

 

[cdabc123]

What made this engine so special as to require an expensive filter? I don't have any sympathy for people who don't RTFM, but I'm genuinely curious. Was there an explanation that accompanied the warning so people didn't think they were being bullshitted?

Fram filters are trash

 

[wizzi01]

Since a couple people asked I just picked yours. Worked in the industry for years and used to see warranty claims and you would be surprised by how many lack common sense when it comes to repairs and maintaining equipment. I could go into many details but I will give a example for now. Manufactures only recommend certain filters to be used due to the micron filtration needed and known good fail safe on the filter itself. Problem is these filters tend to be quite a bit more as they follow manufacturer guidelines and farmers almost always pick the cheapest ones they can find. In this example with a Cummins engine you can not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it's listed in the owners manual as a filter to not use and people installed them anyway and the filters came apart and plugged the oiling system. Owners still wanted the engine covered despite ignoring warnings not to use Fram and it stating it will not be covered. This is one example but this improper part destroyed engines and was costing the manufacturer despite warnings not to do so, locking the owner out prevented the failure.

I'd like to know what vehicles have in the manual not to use Fram filters. The oem cannot put that in writing as it is against magnuson moss.

 

[Gideon]

I'd like to know what vehicles have in the manual not to use Fram filters. The oem cannot put that in writing as it is against magnuson moss.

Anything with a Cummins engine in it, has it far as I know. Fram filters are known in the industry for causing issues and this is a common practice for most OEM's.

 

[wizzi01]

Anything with a Cummins engine in it, has it far as I know. Fram filters are known in the industry for causing issues and this is a common practice for most OEM's.

So, what model so I can verify a manual. It doesn't matter if Fram are junk they still can't say not to use Fram unless they give the customers filters for free.

My old company used Fram pil, fuel and air filters are all their equipment and never had an issue with them.

 

[Lakados]

What made this engine so special as to require an expensive filter? I don't have any sympathy for people who don't RTFM, but I'm genuinely curious. Was there an explanation that accompanied the warning so people didn't think they were being bullshitted?

High airflow diesel in a super dusty environment needs some heavy duty filters. I’ve seen what happens when logging trucks use cheap filters and basically one round trip will choke them out. Pressure then pushes too hard on it and the filter usually starts to disintegrate and you at best stall at worst the engine seizes and you start breaking pistons.

There was a time when fleet managers and owner-operators specified many components on their new trucks and tractors, but that's been seriously curtailed by vertical integration — the practice of manufacturers controlling the design and spec'ing process using parts they build themselves or get from a few suppliers.


Among the no-longer-spec'd components are air filters. What remains is the need to strip 99.9% of impurities from air that will be ingested by a diesel engine, whose compression-ignition operation is extremely sensitive to the smallest contaminants.

Two other reasons for the demise of air-filter choice are aerodynamic truck styling, which places the air-intake system and filter under the hood instead of hung alongside it, and exhaust emissions standards, which truck and engine builders must meet and certify.

Even the simple act of removing an air filter from many of these machines without proper attention given beforehand can lead to failure from what they call “Dusting”.

“Dusting” a diesel begins when a careless mechanic yanks out an element and lets accumulated dirt fall further into the intake piping.

Upon startup, the engine sucks in the dirt, which damages the tur-bocharger, pistons, cylinder walls, injectors and other parts. Instead, the mechanic should carefully withdraw the element while using an oily rag to wipe dirt away from the exposed inlet, then wipe out the canister before installing a new element.

https://www.truckinginfo.com/152731/not-your-fathers-air-filter

 

[SecretStash]

Since a couple people asked I just picked yours. Worked in the industry for years and used to see warranty claims and you would be surprised by how many lack common sense when it comes to repairs and maintaining equipment. I could go into many details but I will give a example for now. Manufactures only recommend certain filters to be used due to the micron filtration needed and known good fail safe on the filter itself. Problem is these filters tend to be quite a bit more as they follow manufacturer guidelines and farmers almost always pick the cheapest ones they can find. In this example with a Cummins engine you can not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it's listed in the owners manual as a filter to not use and people installed them anyway and the filters came apart and plugged the oiling system. Owners still wanted the engine covered despite ignoring warnings not to use Fram and it stating it will not be covered. This is one example but this improper part destroyed engines and was costing the manufacturer despite warnings not to do so, locking the owner out prevented the failure.

Hopefully most of these examples are obvious so that no one can hide that they shot themselves in the foot.

 

[Gideon]

So, what model so I can verify a manual. It doesn't matter if Fram are junk they still can't say not to use Fram unless they give the customers filters for free.

My old company used Fram pil, fuel and air filters are all their equipment and never had an issue with them.

And Dodge Diesel since 2010 I believe might be even older. Any manufacturer can void your warranty if you use a aftermarket product that causes the failure, burden is on the OEM to prove it. Not hard hen the filter material is jammed everywhere inside the engine.

 

[wizzi01]

And Dodge Diesel since 2010 I believe might be even older. Any manufacturer can void your warranty if you use a aftermarket product that causes the failure, burden is on the OEM to prove it. Not hard hen the filter material is jammed everywhere inside the engine.

No one said they couldn't deny a warranty for something. I am calling you out on stating they can't use a specific filter in the manual. The 2011 year they used Cummins and it doesn't say anywhere not to use Fram filters.

 

[Gideon]

No one said they couldn't deny a warranty for something. I am calling you out on stating they can't use a specific filter in the manual. The 2011 year they used Cummins and it doesn't say anywhere not to use Fram filters.

View attachment 374338

It was older then I thought and they had a insert for the owners manual but cant find it for the life of me, probably just to old. You can do what you want since you own the vehicle however, if it failed your out the money and warranty is denied. They strongly suggested is perhaps a better wording. John Deere is just making sure you dont put the wrong part in before they unlock the unit to allow it to run, is it extreme sure, but I understand why they are doing that.

TSB 09-004-01
Thanks to DodgeRam.org ref page: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
************************************************

Symptom: Customer may complain of high oil consumption, grey oil smoke coming out of the exhaust or breather tube, or mechanical knocking. Neoprene compounds used internally in the manufacture of oil filters not recommended by DaimlerChrysler may separate from the filter, lodge in the piston cooling nozzle, and can fail the engine.

Note: this is not an engine defect.

Note: section 2.7 of the truck warranty manual states DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation is not responsible for failures resulting from improper repair or the use of parts which are not genuine DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation / Mopar or DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation / Mopar approved parts. Damages caused by the use of oil filter not approved by DaimlerChrysler may not be covered by the new vehicle warranty. DaimlerChrysler recommends the following oil filters. Do not use any oil filter containing neoprene. Please share this with your customers.


Filters: Model years 1989 to 2001

Part Number Manufacturer
05016547AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose

Notes:

The LF3349 Cellulose filter does not appear on this list. It was approved in the past for 12Valve engines, but it has been superseded by the LF3949, which has a stronger metal case for the 24 Valve engines. You can use your existing LF3349's for 12 valve engines without concern about warranty coverage.

 

[wizzi01]

It was older then I thought and they had a insert for the owners manual but cant find it for the life of me, probably just to old. You can do what you want since you own the vehicle however, if it failed your out the money and warranty is denied. They strongly suggested is perhaps a better wording. John Deere is just making sure you dont put the wrong part in before they unlock the unit to allow it to run, is it extreme sure, but I understand why they are doing that.

TSB 09-004-01
Thanks to DodgeRam.org ref page: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
************************************************

Symptom: Customer may complain of high oil consumption, grey oil smoke coming out of the exhaust or breather tube, or mechanical knocking. Neoprene compounds used internally in the manufacture of oil filters not recommended by DaimlerChrysler may separate from the filter, lodge in the piston cooling nozzle, and can fail the engine.

Note: this is not an engine defect.

Note: section 2.7 of the truck warranty manual states DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation is not responsible for failures resulting from improper repair or the use of parts which are not genuine DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation / Mopar or DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation / Mopar approved parts. Damages caused by the use of oil filter not approved by DaimlerChrysler may not be covered by the new vehicle warranty. DaimlerChrysler recommends the following oil filters. Do not use any oil filter containing neoprene. Please share this with your customers.


Filters: Model years 1989 to 2001

Part Number Manufacturer
05016547AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose

Notes:

The LF3349 Cellulose filter does not appear on this list. It was approved in the past for 12Valve engines, but it has been superseded by the LF3949, which has a stronger metal case for the 24 Valve engines. You can use your existing LF3349's for 12 valve engines without concern about warranty coverage.

That tsb still doesn't specify a manufacturer just a type of filter material. Which Fram changed anyways.

Also, there is talk on some forums tgat the tsb was rescinded due to legal threat, but I cannot verify, yet.

 

[Gideon]

That tsb still doesn't specify a manufacturer just a type of filter material. Which Fram changed anyways.

Because they got tired of going to court with angry people that owned a Cummins engine that their filter destroyed. One of the main reasons why my fleet wont run anything Fram, they fought people tooth and nail over their failed filter. Also if you read my posting a bit more, you will notice I said it's more correct to say strongly suggest then you must use these filters. Few dollars more on a filter beats the heck out of being out 10K+ on a engine. Anyway I dont want to derail this anymore over this.

 

[pendragon1]

 

[wizzi01]

Because they got tired of going to court with angry people that owned a Cummins engine that their filter destroyed. One of the main reasons why my fleet wont run anything Fram, they fought people tooth and nail over their failed filter. Also if you read my posting a bit more, you will notice I said it's more correct to say strongly suggest then you must use these filters. Few dollars more on a filter beats the heck out of being out 10K+ on a engine. Anyway I dont want to derail this anymore over this.

It's been quoted before. These are your words not mine......In this example with a Cummins engine you can not use a Fram filter as they were known for coming apart and it's listed in the owners manual as a filter to not use

 

[tunatime]

Umm modern Diesel oil filters as far as I know are not cheap paper? ... at least I never ran across any overly cheep ones when I change my v8 diesel filters

 

[1_rick]

He put up a video today saying the DCA reached out to him and got the problem solved.

 

[1_rick]

I'm curious if you could provide some insight into how you obtained this information.

It came straight from John Deere, probably.

 

[[21CW]killerofall]

Can I overclock a John Deere tractor? I would at least like to get it to HDMI 2.2 or 3, for future proofing.

Actually yes you can. You can literally unlock a more powerful tractor and additional features by changing a few values in software. I wish I was joking...

I deliberately didn't apply for a job at a John Deere distributor (doing IT asset management) because of the shitty business practices of John Deere.

Farm equipment really is very similar to cars and trucks, just bigger. To be fair though I haven't worked on any farm equipment in 20 years. Back then, it was actually easier to fix farm equipment than cars (helps when they are a few feet off the ground). Now, everything is run by the computer (this is on both cars and farm equipment).

 

[Gideon]

It came straight from John Deere, probably.

They are not the only company looking at this kind of policy in the automotive world. More to do with the software side of things, but it will trickle out over time, especially with all electric vehicles. Tesla is very strict.

 

[Extra-Titanian]

They are not the only company looking at this kind of policy in the automotive world. More to do with the software side of things, but it will trickle out over time, especially with all electric vehicles. Tesla is very strict.

Yep. Pretty soon it'll all be FPGA's and software updates. And licensing...

 

[pendragon1]

 

[Extra-Titanian]

No one has any idea how bad this problem is...

 

[sfsuphysics]

Actually yes you can. You can literally unlock a more powerful tractor and additional features by changing a few values in software. I wish I was joking...

I believe Tesla cars essentially software lock you out of more range/power as well.

 

[travm]

I remember JD and I want to say Kubota saying this is why they had to implement many of the measures they did but I am not sure about the overall accuracy of these statements, I am sure there were a few incidents where people tried to scam their warranties there always is but I am not sure they actually are as widespread as they claim they were.

I expect corrupt dealers are as much to blame as any farmer. I designed and sold short line ag equipment for many years. Ran into a couple shady dealers. Don't recall any shady farmers.

 

[Aurelius]

I believe Tesla cars essentially software lock you out of more range/power as well.

That's been true in some cases. For example, in Canada you can tell Tesla to limit a Model 3 to a 151km range (that's about 94 miles) in exchange for a lower price. To my knowledge, the full battery is still there — you're just agreeing to a software lock. The Model S had a similar "pay X to get full use of the battery" feature for a while. And I believe you can pay extra for more acceleration on some cars right now.

 

[GoodBoy]

Nope,
If I was using massive farm equipment there are certain things I would want to be repaired / serviced by the mfg.

I've dealt with more than my fair share of crappy 3rd party parts for vehicles, etc. In the long run it just isn't worth it to use certain 3rd party parts.

Not only can they be poor quality, but they can also be outright dangerous.

As for certain codes, say on John Deere equipment, sure let them continue to run it.

But what if instead of the users actually fixing problems... Such as replacing oil filters, changing the oil, keeping the fluid levels where they are supposed to be some of these people just reset the codes or even modify the equipment to never have the codes come on?

You know there are people out there that would do this and then go after John Deere when something bad happens.

Kinda like how people sue fast food places for such things as spilling hot coffee on themselves.

Maybe there should be some sort of cellular connection available so that required fixes can be verified.

I just don't see how John Deere as a company is supposed to protect themselves legally if they were to completely open up repairs to end users for all their large equipment.

Maybe they could completely do away with any warranty whatsoever for starters. Let the farmers be completely on their own as far as repairs go.

Provide the repair manuals and sell OEM parts and that is all.

My bet is that is that were to happen, then there would end up being a massive number of cheaply made 3rd party parts and that would lead to very bad things and then the people that bought those parts and did the repairs with those parts would try to go after John Deere.

I bet there are also all kinds of government regulations that they have to follow such as emissions standards and probably a whole lot of other stuff since from what I understand a whole lot of the farming is government (tax payer) subsidized.

If you want to have your John Deere serviced by the dealer, Right to Repair doesn't change your ability to do so.

If some farmer chooses a cheap aftermarket part and it damages their equipment, John Deere will know. This is no different than an automobile warranty. Any claims for the engine, etc. first require proof that all proper scheduled maintenance has been performed, or the customer is responsible for the repair cost.

Your point of view is not a reason to be against right to repair.

 

[GoodBoy]

No one said they couldn't deny a warranty for something. I am calling you out on stating they can't use a specific filter in the manual. The 2011 year they used Cummins and it doesn't say anywhere not to use Fram filters.

View attachment 374338

It doesn't say not to use Fram, but does warn that quality varies considerably.

Never use FRAM, I think ac delco is also of questionable quality. I only use Wix. There's one other brand, forget the name, that the guy at O'reillys said was a good quality filter. The price between a shit filter and a solid filter can be twice the price.. but you are talking $8 vs $4. Always go for the better filter.

Farmers spend $250k on a single piece of equipment.. most are already aware of this and use the good parts. Saving $4 isn't worth it if it cuts a few years off of your tractor.

 

[wizzi01]

It doesn't say not to use Fram, but does warn that quality varies considerably.

Never use FRAM, I think ac delco is also of questionable quality. I only use Wix. There's one other brand, forget the name, that the guy at O'reillys said was a good quality filter. The price between a shit filter and a solid filter can be twice the price.. but you are talking $8 vs $4. Always go for the better filter.

Farmers spend $250k on a single piece of equipment.. most are already aware of this and use the good parts. Saving $4 isn't worth it if it cuts a few years off of your tractor.

I'm not arguing about what filter to use or not use. It was about his words and how magnuson moss wouldn't let it fly.

 

[Gavv]

It doesn't say not to use Fram, but does warn that quality varies considerably.

Never use FRAM, I think ac delco is also of questionable quality. I only use Wix. There's one other brand, forget the name, that the guy at O'reillys said was a good quality filter. The price between a shit filter and a solid filter can be twice the price.. but you are talking $8 vs $4. Always go for the better filter.

Farmers spend $250k on a single piece of equipment.. most are already aware of this and use the good parts. Saving $4 isn't worth it if it cuts a few years off of your tractor.

Interesting higher cost equates to better.

I should always use the filter Toyota recommends at service because it costs 60 verses at autozone where it costs 18.

If in fact you’re stating quality you have to determine what quality is. Not through price, but through why it is better verses the other.

Ive asked Toyota why they charge 50 -60 for a filter and what makes theirs better than the same brand same filter for 1/3 the cost. They can’t tell you. They only says it’s theirs and better.

I had the refridge guy give me the same nonsense on filters. Buy from us because ours are better than the ones online. Even when I noted same exact brand, same exact part his excuse was their aren’t legit. Hmm if legit cost 3 times more for quality for the same thing we got a lot of BS issues.

Quality needs a definition.

 

[travm]

Interesting higher cost equates to better.

I should always use the filter Toyota recommends at service because it costs 60 verses at autozone where it costs 18.

If in fact you’re stating quality you have to determine what quality is. Not through price, but through why it is better verses the other.

Ive asked Toyota why they charge 50 -60 for a filter and what makes theirs better than the same brand same filter for 1/3 the cost. They can’t tell you. They only says it’s theirs and better.

I had the refridge guy give me the same nonsense on filters. Buy from us because ours are better than the ones online. Even when I noted same exact brand, same exact part his excuse was their aren’t legit. Hmm if legit cost 3 times more for quality for the same thing we got a lot of BS issues.

Quality needs a definition.

If you want to know, you should take your grinder and cut the filter in half. Then cut a cheapo filter in half.
Sometimes its obvious why one is cheaper. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesnt. Depends on many factors.

I own a shitty old truck. I use cheap shitty filters, but change extra regularly (burns oil, and it goes black as tar fast). Nothing is simple.

 

[GoodBoy]

Interesting higher cost equates to better.

I should always use the filter Toyota recommends at service because it costs 60 verses at autozone where it costs 18.

If in fact you’re stating quality you have to determine what quality is. Not through price, but through why it is better verses the other.

Ive asked Toyota why they charge 50 -60 for a filter and what makes theirs better than the same brand same filter for 1/3 the cost. They can’t tell you. They only says it’s theirs and better.

I had the refridge guy give me the same nonsense on filters. Buy from us because ours are better than the ones online. Even when I noted same exact brand, same exact part his excuse was their aren’t legit. Hmm if legit cost 3 times more for quality for the same thing we got a lot of BS issues.

Quality needs a definition.

This is exactly why right to repair is needed, especially in the case of farm equipment.

The farmer is required to buy the $60 filter, that is overpriced because it can be overpriced.

The price comparison I was making was for all non-oem filters, in which case it's fairly accurate.

Price doesn't = better when the seller has a monopoly or can force you to buy his product. Price doesn't even = better in the 3rd party market. But an extremely CHEAP price, should be a dead giveaway that quality may be lacking.

As far as figuring out what the actual quality is in the example of an oil filter, no need to do it yourself, just go search it on youtube.

 

[DukenukemX]

I should always use the filter Toyota recommends at service because it costs 60 verses at autozone where it costs 18.

It's almost always better to use OEM parts but because of price you end up using aftermarket. When it comes to oil filters the OEM one is the best because it does filter the most compared to crap like FRAM. Most other better quality filters worry about oil flow rate and not filtration. I use Toyota filters for Toyota's and Lexus's and Delco filters for GM vehicles. Always use OEM.

Ive asked Toyota why they charge 50 -60 for a filter and what makes theirs better than the same brand same filter for 1/3 the cost. They can’t tell you. They only says it’s theirs and better.

From my experience the Toyota filters are really cheap, but not $50 - $60. I usually pay something like $5-$7 for a filter. Maybe $15 for my Lexus IS250 because apparently cartridge based filters cost more?

Quality needs a definition.

Good luck with that. My 02 Corvette had the oil pressure sensor fail so I bought an OEM Delco replacement. It failed a week later. Turns out Delco can't make quality oil pressure sensors if their lives depended on it. I ended up going with Standard as most people recommend. My Moms and uncles Lexus's needed a new Oxygen sensor and I bought the cheapest none OEM brand I could find only to find the thing made the ECU go nuts. I had to buy genuine Denso O2 sensor for it to work properly. Rule of thumb with Toyota's is use either Denso or NGK products and nothing else.

Not all OEM products are of high quality. If it failed before 100k miles then it was shit to begin with. Lots of aftermarket products actually fix the design flaws of the OEM. At the same time, not all aftermarket products are of high quality. Some brands are known for quality but they usually cost a lot. Also, rebuilt parts like alternators and starters are not worth it. Too often I've replaced an alternator or starter from a rebuilt from Autozone only to find it doesn't work. You know how much it sucks to take apart the intake of a BMW i5 only to find that crappy starter from Autozone doesn't work? Toyota is surprisingly one of the few auto manufacturers who don't price gouge their parts, but most certainly do. I've replaced some air conditioning compressors for some of my cars and I've bought brand new Denso's. Not just for Toyota as I've put Denso's in my Uncles Mazda Tribute (Ford Escape) and my Corvette. I've put two Denso O2 sensors on my Vette and they work a lot better than some cheap crap I've found from Rockauto. My friends Prius had the coolant pump for the electrical system fail and we used some cheap aftermarket parts for them to also fail. He had to buy an OEM part from Toyota to stop this coolant pump from blowing out and it costed over $200. My point is that quality is hard to find and OEM is not always the best. Not everyone wants to spend hundreds on an OEM part.

 

[Gavv]

This is exactly why right to repair, especially in the case of farm equipment.

The farmer is required to buy the $60 filter, that is overpriced because it can be overpriced.

The price comparison I was making was for all non-oem filters, in which case it's fairly accurate.

Price doesn't = better when the seller has a monopoly or can force you to buy his product. Price doesn't even = better in the 3rd party market. But an extremely CHEAP price, should be a dead giveaway that quality may be lacking.

As far as figuring out what the actual quality is in the example of an oil filter, no need to do it yourself, just go search it on youtube.

Exactly have watched many a YouTube video. Some you discount because their shills but others have been great. Seem some good stuff linked in the cars subforum.

Working in quality as my profession I know that just because the OEN says it’s good doesn’t mean it is. We make things to make a profit, we put warnings to not pay claims.

It's almost always better to use OEM parts but because of price you end up using aftermarket. When it comes to oil filters the OEM one is the best because it does filter the most compared to crap like FRAM. Most other better quality filters worry about oil flow rate and not filtration. I use Toyota filters for Toyota's and Lexus's and Delco filters for GM vehicles. Always use OEM.

From my experience the Toyota filters are really cheap, but not $50 - $60. I usually pay something like $5-$7 for a filter. Maybe $15 for my Lexus IS250 because apparently cartridge based filters cost more?

Good luck with that. My 02 Corvette had the oil pressure sensor fail so I bought an OEM Delco replacement. It failed a week later. Turns out Delco can't make quality oil pressure sensors if their lives depended on it. I ended up going with Standard as most people recommend. My Moms and uncles Lexus's needed a new Oxygen sensor and I bought the cheapest none OEM brand I could find only to find the thing made the ECU go nuts. I had to buy genuine Denso O2 sensor for it to work properly. Rule of thumb with Toyota's is use either Denso or NGK products and nothing else.

Not all OEM products are of high quality. If it failed before 100k miles then it was shit to begin with. Lots of aftermarket products actually fix the design flaws of the OEM. At the same time, not all aftermarket products are of high quality. Some brands are known for quality but they usually cost a lot. Also, rebuilt parts like alternators and starters are not worth it. Too often I've replaced an alternator or starter from a rebuilt from Autozone only to find it doesn't work. You know how much it sucks to take apart the intake of a BMW i5 only to find that crappy starter from Autozone doesn't work? Toyota is surprisingly one of the few auto manufacturers who don't price gouge their parts, but most certainly do. I've replaced some air conditioning compressors for some of my cars and I've bought brand new Denso's. Not just for Toyota as I've put Denso's in my Uncles Mazda Tribute (Ford Escape) and my Corvette. I've put two Denso O2 sensors on my Vette and they work a lot better than some cheap crap I've found from Rockauto. My friends Prius had the coolant pump for the electrical system fail and we used some cheap aftermarket parts for them to also fail. He had to buy an OEM part from Toyota to stop this coolant pump from blowing out and it costed over $200. My point is that quality is hard to find and OEM is not always the best. Not everyone wants to spend hundreds on an OEM part.

I’m going to disagree with the OEM portion. If 3rd party makes a demonstratively better widget, going to use it every time.

You can watch reviews, read forums and figure this out.

I was using Toyota only as an example as I sold my Toyota and no longer have it. It’s very easy to get whatever stock part number from Toyota and price it elsewhere. Dealers will screw you over and there’s no difference in their part and the exact same part number at a lower price somewhere else. If there is then they suck altogether to start with.

As to quality needing a definition we saw it above. The person was called out for this particular comment and they showed what was to be used. It wasn’t really a brand on it, more a type with some examples (parts). But if they are using a standard then 3rd party can be just as good. It’s up to the consumer to make that determination though.

Aftermarket or OEM doesn’t matter. I’ll research and use the part I want, which will be based on whatever studies I can find and testing and reviews. Sure going to have to sift through some BS but I am sure I’ll be fine.

And Toyota gouges where they can. If your fine paying their prices good for you.