NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by wahaha360, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. M1Runner

    M1Runner n00b

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  2. vortaku

    vortaku [H]Lite

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    Anyone know what all will be changing with the version 6? Need to order another m1
     
  3. SmootyPoody

    SmootyPoody n00b

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    So I am finally back with some more testing. This time bottom exhaust vs bottom intake. I didn't have an Accelero GPU cooler to test with, but rather just used the stock cooler and took the shroud and fans off.

    The interesting part is, that in therory it should yield lower CPU/mobo temps with the cost being higher GPU temps. But I could not provide such evidence with this setup.

    The GPU connected fans was working harder in exhaust and still the GPU temps was higher (delta) but the CPU temps were not lower. So it seems it was only a trade off - no gain. My theory now lies with the fact I am using a AIO cooler and that it does not gain any of the heat from within the system as the airway is blocked off from the inside (ie it does not use the internal air as a cooling device), so only outside air is used to cool the CPU. And as such it does not yield lower temps for the CPU if the GPU is exhausting into the case or outside.

    My data is to find here as always. Its the bottom data sheet and test #3, #4 and #5 that I am speeking about here.
     
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  4. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    You'll have to wait a bit longer for a full list of changes. I've talked about of the few of them over on SFFN though if you want to follow the thread there.
     
  5. vortaku

    vortaku [H]Lite

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    Appreciate you responding Necere!
    Do we have a time table for the v6 to be orderable? (is oderable even a word?)
     
  6. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    No, not yet.
     
  7. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    I wonder if a 3-slot 2080 Ti like the XC/XC2 Ultra would perform better in the M1 than a 2080 Ti with an Accelero. Does anyone know?
     
  8. M1AF

    M1AF Limp Gawd

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    It doesn't perform better.
     
  9. HansWursT619

    HansWursT619 n00b

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    But how does it compare?^^
    I did not find numbers comparing a 2.5 slot card with its fans removed vs. the same accelero modded card.
    Both running the same fans.
     
  10. M1AF

    M1AF Limp Gawd

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    TLDR: Too many variables. Nobody has been willing to permanently damage their 2080ti in order to test without the fan brackets.

    If you use an Asus or EVGA 2.75/2.7 slot card, you cannot fit a 25mm thick fan under them. 15mm max, the EVGA requires removing screws to get it to fit.
    If you remove the shrouds, they have brackets soldered to the sink that will prevent the use of 25mm fans as exhaust. The Asus card can be used with 25mm fans as intake, barely. If you remove the brackets then you'll be the first that I know of, so please report back temps.
    The Accelero allows the sink + 25mm thick fans. This is the gold standard currently.
    The CPU cooler matters, as well as the CPU. That's why there aren't direct comparisons. If you use a C14S + TG then you will need the bottom fans as exhaust. 15mm intake fans on a fully shrouded 2080ti will result in horrible cpu temps.
    If you use a U9S with 120mm side exhaust then the bottom intake fans might run better.
     
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  11. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    Okay, thanks for the information guys. Another question: How does the 645LT AIO compare to the U9S? Both heat exchangers are 92mm. The U9S has a larger heatsink, but the 645LT is liquid, so I'm thinking they're similar in performance? I want to finally get the window and I want to do Accelero intake on the bottom plus 645LT intake from the rear. That way the case will have positive pressure thru filtered intakes and all exhaust will be going out the top, which is good for dust control (which I actually value more than temperatures) and heat from the Accelero will not interfere with the CPU cooler because the latter will be getting fresh intake. And with the window, the AIO will look better. So that's my thought process, what do you think?
     
  12. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    So just single 92mm (hopefully 25mm thick) fan intaking thru a radiator for the CPU...

    And (assuming) dual 12x25s intaking thru a heat sink for the GPU...

    But no chassis fan at all...? I forget if a SFX PSU can be used (with an adapter plate) in the forward position ATX PSU mount & still have the window...?

    But if you CAN, then maybe mount another 12x25 fan exhausting up top, connected to the chassis fan header...

    Maybe a custom bracket for the fan that attached to the ATX PSU mount...?

    Might this bracket be possible, Necere ...?
     
  13. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    No, I actually asked this a while ago, you can't use the ATX bracket with the window. And yeah, 3 case intakes, and passive exhaust except the PSU which will be rotated inward, so it will provide additional exhaust. I have solid rubber plugs for the watercooling holes and a solid 3rd slot PCIe cover, so going for a chimney effect to ensure all intake is filtered and all exhaust is out the top to avoid dust settling in through there. The PSU may get a little loud, but I don't care that much about noise, I have a loud air purifier in my room (and an A/C in the summer), any fan in the PC spinning at under 2000 RPM is inaudible. And I don't tax my system that much. So it's all about dust management and looks, not about temperatures and noise. :D
     
  14. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hey Necere maybe a front mount bracket specifically for SFX PSUs, one that allows the window AND adds the ability to attach a single 120mm fan for exhaust out the top of the chassis...?

    Another option for top exhaust, with the standard configuration of the SFX PSU alongside the motherboard, mounting four 80mm fans. two over the motherboard & two in front of the PSU...?

    I'm gonna stop typing now... ;^p
     
  15. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    So for V6 I've redesigned the SFX bracket such that it can be installed either in the original side location, or at the front. It's not backward compatible with V5 though unfortunately, as it required some changes to the bracket and chassis to make it work in both locations. The ATX bracket will no longer be included.

    As for additional fan mounts at the top, there really isn't enough room to make that work.
     
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  16. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    Do you mean that it can be rotated 90° so that it's behind the front panel and "across" the case? What is the advantage of that orientation compared to the standard "side mounted" one? Wouldn't it impinge on the clearance at the side panel?

    Sorry if these are silly questions, but I'm trying to get my head round this and work out what benefit you'd get from having a little bit more space between the motherboard and PSU.
     
  17. teo

    teo n00b

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    Most people that I’ve seen rotate their SFX psu to the “atx” position was to get a bit more room for the C14S’s bottom A14 fan. With the psu in the normal spot, the 140mm fan wouldn’t fit underneath the heatsink. The smaller SFX unit in the front position also creates a gap on the side panel where some additional air can enter/exhaust through the vent holes
     
  18. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Yeah, across the case. Basically what people were already doing using the ATX bracket.

    Clearance for the bottom fan on the C14S is the main thing. There are also some microATX-ish motherboards that will benefit from it.
     
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  19. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    Ah, thanks for clarifying. Makes sense, although it's a shame it breaks compatibility for such an edge case.
     
  20. Mannymal

    Mannymal Limp Gawd

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    Any ideas how to repaint shallow cosmetic scratches in the NCASE’s paint? On a black case.

    Also one of the expansion slot screw threads has stripped (seems common with Lian-Li aluminum) any idea if there is a way to repair that, or should i accept it and move on?
     
  21. Bawjaws

    Bawjaws Limp Gawd

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    A black sharpie might be your best bet, to be honest. The case panels aren't painted, they're anodised, so touching them up is going to tricky.

    In terms of the expansion slot, you could go for a nut & bolt solution rather than a screw.
     
  22. Mannymal

    Mannymal Limp Gawd

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    Has anyone tried sandblasting the panels? Powder coating? Thinking of bringing it into a professional shop
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  23. Chapeau

    Chapeau Gawd

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    Probably just move on... :( There's not enough clearance or thickness for a proper repair;
    1. Helicoil would be the standard for a stripped component like this that you can't tap
    2. Small barrel nut like this would work if you had surrounding clearance
    3. Sex nut and barrel bolt combo if you lack clearance, but getting one in a small enough diameter would be difficult
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  24. Nobu

    Nobu 2[H]4U

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    If you know the size, digikey probably has it. or you can check your local hardware store (not Lowe's/HD, etc -- They may have it, but unlikely).
     
  25. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    Copious amounts of JB Weld...
     
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  26. Steadipanda

    Steadipanda n00b

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    Just for anyone who is interested. I've created this M1 underdesk hanger

    anyone are welcome to download and print em yourself.

    link is on thingiverse 3655043

    or click https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3655043


    cheers.
     

    Attached Files:

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  27. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    A new ultimate SFF motherboard contender...?

    s%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fwww.tech-critter.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FROG-Crosshair-VIII-Impact-01.jpg
     
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  28. rfarmer

    rfarmer [H]ard|Gawd

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    You are going to need at least the Ncase for this. DTX size and with the height of that daughter board not going to fit in many SFF cases.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
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  29. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    Imagine the Crosshair VIII Impact with a 240 AIO & a Navi version of this (a version which would actually fit in the M1, of course); maybe Necere is actually from the future & really designed the NCASE M1 for the ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Impact...!?!
     
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  30. jdajjarapu

    jdajjarapu n00b

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    My old m1 build from 2014 died. Trying to figure out if to salvage and rebuild....OR start from scratch.

    Was wondering what an example build might be for air cooling a i9 9900k and gtx 2080

    What motherboards are people using?
    Graphic cards?
    Aio coolers?

    What is the gold standard?

    Any help would be appreciated. Doing this all from phone :(
     
  31. MLH

    MLH n00b

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    That heatsink looks massive, I'm not sure it'll fit a NCASE M1, at least with the top panel on...
    Might not fit in at all as the panel push connectors (don't know the actual name) that hold the panels might interfere with the bottom of the board.

    Was looking forward to the Impact reveal, now I'm not so sure...
    Got a Noctua NH-C14 I wanted to use with that too, but can't be certain that'll fit either.

    Edit: That daughterboard might also cause problems with the side mounted fans.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  32. Blindphleb

    Blindphleb n00b

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    I'm hoping that V6 has motherboard mounts for DTX.
     
  33. lemkeant

    lemkeant n00b

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    Mini-DTX is actually already supported, so it should fit in theory.

    I have V1 of this case and have my eye on this new ROG Impact. Im more concerned about that I/O though...
     
  34. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Two additional standoffs for mini-DTX/some compact mATX boards have been included since M1 V3: M1 changelog

    Mini-DTX doesn't really need the extra standoffs, however, and will work perfectly fine with just the standard mini-ITX standoffs.
     
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  35. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Mini-DTX support was always one of my reasons for including three expansion slots - I talked about them early in this thread and I test fit a mini-DTX board in the first prototype. I had hoped it would catch on at some point as an intermediary step between mATX and mini-ITX that would be largely compatible with cases for the latter, but what I kept hearing from users and manufacturers alike was that it was a "dead format," and that there was no point in making them. Nice to finally see some action on that front.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  36. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    This is great for us M1 owners, but I'm not sure it's a prudent decision on ASUS' part. Other than the M1 I can't think of an ITX case that supports DTX. Even large ITX cases like the the H200i don't support it. There isn't even an extra slot, they just wanted more room.
     
  37. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Most mini-ITX cases that support a dual-slot GPU in the standard way (i.e., that don't use a riser) should support mini-DTX, even if they don't explicitly call it out. The extra 33mm needed is largely accounted for by the space required by the GPU - only an additional ~5mm is needed:

    pU83xBB.png

    I'd be surprised if the H200i didn't have the room.


    That said, it's true that it's going to limit the market to mostly non-riser based cases.
     
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  38. QuantumBraced

    QuantumBraced Gawd

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    Oh I didn't realize that. Okay, not such a bad decision then. I was thinking about the old DTX boards that had the x16 in the second slot position, then you'd need 3 slots like the M1, and the H200i wouldn't work (unless you didn't use a graphics card). But this DTX board from ASUS (and I assume all going forward if it becomes a thing), has the x16 in the first slot, and doesn't even have another slot, so it works with all dual-slot cases that don't use risers. It makes sense that the industry should move in this direction then since there's already widespread compatibility except for our beloved ultra SFF riser cases. So I kind of hope both ITX and DTX can coexist. I'd love to see ASRock do a DTX Threadripper board.

    Question -- does the 5.2mm of board past the GPU interfere with bottom 120mm fan placement in the M1? What about 140mm in V6?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  39. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    It would definitely interfere with 104mm fans. For 120mm fans, it depends if there's anything taller than ~6mm on the last 2mm of board.
     
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  40. Revenant_Knight

    Revenant_Knight Limp Gawd

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    I just did a cooling rebuild on my M1 system. My cpu cold plate for the NZXT X52 was not making good contact, however the effect on cooling performance was minimal. What wasn't minimal was reversing the flow of the CPU fans (Noctua Sterrox 12x25s). I now have them as an exhaust. This has further reduced my CPU head room. I've had to take the 8086K and drop it to 1.32V from 1.36V now with a -2 AVX offset, and 130 watt TDP limit. It's still got an all core speed of 5GHZ. Temps are in the low 90s under heavy load, and mid 90s with Prime 29.X with AVX Small FFTs

    The side effect though is that the noise of the CPU fans is far, far more noticeable....and now blows hot air at me at all times. Thing is sitting sideways on my desk.

    I also swapped the thin Noctua 12x15 120s on the bottom of the case for Noiseblockers I had from my previous build. GPU airflow improved, but increased the turbulance noise at the bottom of the case. However, I'll take the turbulence over the vibration noise of Noctua thin fans.

    What has REALLY changed though is that the GPU temps are a full 10C lower than before. I'm seeing 75C playing BFV with DXR Ultra on, at 2GHZ+ with a memory OC of +500 on my RTX 2080 Founders edition. The GPU fan speed has been reduced to 60% at load from 80% as well. Massive, massive difference.

    Overall, in gaming, the system is now much quieter and faster. In everything else, it's louder and imperceptibly slower.