Multi GPU's and gamers

[heatlesssun]

Yes, water cooling can be loud. There are still fans involved. The higher performing the setup, the more noise it generates. The same as it does with air coolers. All things being equal its capable of better cooling while making less noise, but still it can get noisy. Mine isn't too bad, but if I crank the fan speeds all the way up, it gets loud as hell.

Thanks for the info. However people reporting putting their 480s on water are doing it for noise reduction and they seem to be reporting that that's working for them fine and dandy. I should have been more specific. Water cooling is eliminating 480 fan noise from what I've head here

Well what he means is that the noise generated by even a single GeForce GTX 480 is unacceptable to him. He said nothing about performance. There are other factors he simply places ahead of performance in this case. While many enthusiasts do not care as much about factors aside from performance, there are still many people do.

And I totally understand that and agree. But there are trade offs in everything and I would have to think that if some people actually saw what this hardware can do with their own eyes, I can't help but imagine that some might reconsider their position. I know I'm kinda in the extreme when it comes to performance but there are times when you see something say "Holly fuck!". I've simply been experiencing more of those moments in the last three weeks than can remember having in 30+ years of playing computers games.

And yeah I'm late to the multi-monitor game but putting 3D on top of that, 3D that actually can RUN well in Surround. Yeah its not for everyone but its just something I'm VERY glad I tried out. This is why I LOVE PC gaming, doing cool shit. And oh boy, 3D in Mafia II? Couple of demo reviews have said its amazing.

We've been talking about all the issues with multi-GPU, it's important to understand that there are just mind blowing benefits to this stuff as well. Some use are LITERALLY having experiences that other simply aren't even perceiving and that's something that I think those that might be more skeptical have to understand. This is a step beyond traditional gaming for those with the eyes and stomach.

 

[shansoft]

Let's do this. You and shansoft, one on one in a CS Tournament, bizzmeister with dual 480s, shansoft with one 480, and the winner gets the final word on microstuttering, at least in CS.

Of course on might be such a much better player than the other, and I'm not saying it's either on of you, but I find the idea intriguing. Having two people that say opposite things about microstuttering going head to head. Heck having teams on different sides of the issue. Could be VERY interesting.

OH man, I would love to do it just for fun.. Haven't play 1v1 for a long time..

Still having the memory for cs_bloodstrike map... that map is fun..

I will try to setup my srcds sometime this week, we should just have a [H] tournament on it

 

[Matrices]

Yeah, that was too harsh. Right now I have an elegant little aluminum box on my desk that is silent and provides great graphics. I can also have people over to watch movies on my 30" and the computer perfectly doubles as an HTPC. I do not want to ruin these aesthetics of my setup. Gone are my days of having some huge ass server case with a ton of fans thrown into it so I can gain another 100MHz of clock speed. Going with even one GTX 480 would defeat this purpose, nevermind two or three. I don't want to have to yell over the fans "ISN'T THIS AWESOME!?" to my friend while I'm showing him BF:BC2, and I like to hear myself think when games are quiet or during a cut scene. And no, water cooling is still too loud. Anyway, that's why I said, when a card comes out that does what I want, I'll more seriously consider it.

While water cooling can be loud, by no means does it need to be loud.

I went with water cooling for three reasons:

1. Noise
2. Performance
3. Heat

And I adressed all three.

In terms of noise, it's pretty simple to understand: using a 360mm radiator, you are spreading out the surface area over which you can dissipate the heat, and you are increasing the sizes of the fans you can use to cool. With air cooling, you're stuck with a small fan trying to cool the component directly.

Because larger fans can push way more CFMs at much lower rotation (RPM), you get far less noise. I've got an externally mounted radiator and even then it's an order of magnitude more quiet than hearing GPU fans at 70%.

It's hard to make it silent, but you can definitely make it quiet. That's obviously not going to work with a tiny HTPC, but no reasonable person expects an HTPC to run two or three video cards quietly. Getting an ATI solution wouldn't help you in that department at all; two or three high-end cards under load are NOT going to be silent under load on air.

 

[Dan_D]

Thanks for the info. However people reporting putting their 480s on water are doing it for noise reduction and they seem to be reporting that that's working for them fine and dandy. I should have been more specific. Water cooling is eliminating 480 fan noise from what I've head here




And I totally understand that and agree. But there are trade offs in everything and I would have to think that if some people actually saw what this hardware can do with their own eyes, I can't help but imagine that some might reconsider their position. I know I'm kinda in the extreme when it comes to performance but there are times when you see something say "Holly fuck!". I've simply been experiencing more of those moments in the last three weeks than can remember having in 30+ years of playing computers games.

And yeah I'm late to the multi-monitor game but putting 3D on top of that, 3D that actually can RUN well in Surround. Yeah its not for everyone but its just something I'm VERY glad I tried out. This is why I LOVE PC gaming, doing cool shit. And oh boy, 3D in Mafia II? Couple of demo reviews have said its amazing.

We've been talking about all the issues with multi-GPU, it's important to understand that there are just mind blowing benefits to this stuff as well. Some use are LITERALLY having experiences that other simply aren't even perceiving and that's something that I think those that might be more skeptical have to understand. This is a step beyond traditional gaming for those with the eyes and stomach.

I thought you meant general water cooling. For the most part video card water cooling will always be quieter as those small fans they use often sping extremely fast and create a high pitched whine that even top end water cooling need not suffer from. If I added a pair of GTX 480's to my loop I'd probably need to increase my fan speeds, but even at full speed it pales in comparison to just how loud my video card can get if I run the fan at 100%. As loud as GeForce GTX 480's can get and as much heat as they generate I wouldn't be at all surprised if they ran near 100% in my system assuming I actually had some.

 

[heatlesssun]

I am sooooo down for this, hahahah. Someone set it up!

OH man, I would love to do it just for fun.. Haven't play 1v1 for a long time..

Still having the memory for cs_bloodstrike map... that map is fun..

I will try to setup my srcds sometime this week, we should just have a [H] tournament on it

We could sell tickets! Really I thinik that this is really the only way to actually demonstrate just how bad or not multi-GPU issues really are. You guys need to set it up!

 

[RamonGTP]

It would be a fun experiment, but would not prove anything one way or the other. Since we don't know their skill level relative to one another, They'd have to play, swap hardware and play again to even begin to draw any conclusions. And to really draw more solid conclusions they'd have to play one another on identical hardware to use as a "control"

 

[heatlesssun]

I agree it would be cool but it would prove nothing. Which begs the question what WOULD prove something? How would anyone ever know when such subjective issues such as input lag and microsottuer have been "fixed"? What processes could be used to validate the solution?

It's simply impossible for issues with so many variables which are ENTIRELY dependent on the observer.

 

[Raap]

I agree it would be cool but it would prove nothing. Which begs the question what WOULD prove something? How would anyone ever know when such subjective issues such as input lag and microsottuer have been "fixed"? What processes could be used to validate the solution?

It's simply impossible for issues with so many variables which are ENTIRELY dependent on the observer.

Not exactly. Microstutter is easy to prove( with hard numbers, not subjective opions), and it would be likewise easy to check if it had been fixed.

Input lag is a different case though, since it is dependent on very many factors, including graphical settings( vsync and such, but also hidden settings), the monitor, the mouse/keyboard, etc. Still, if you were to get really scientific, I suppose you could probably detect it with a high-fps camera and use it to compare the game view with the mouse movement. With vsync for instance, you can often get the effect that the view in the game( first person shooter) continues moving for a tiny bit even after you've stopped the mouse.

 

[heatlesssun]

Not exactly. Microstutter is easy to prove( with hard numbers, not subjective opions), and it would be likewise easy to check if it had been fixed.

That's not what anyone else this thread said. Indeed the thread starts out with one person seeing it and another not seeing it in the same game and on the same machine. Maybe its not microstutter. But I mean just take a look at all the debate in this subject. NOTHING is easy to prove about this subject.

 

[RamonGTP]

There's a difference between proving it exists and noticing it. It's the interpretation of these two concepts that's been dragging this thread on and on and on.

 

[Tudz]

Its easy to show microstutter with frame times, I've seen a few graphs on it in the past on the 9800GX2 and maybe the 4870x2. Your perception of microstutter is what is difficult to measure, but the actual phenomenon itself isn't.

Personally when I look at reviews of SLI set ups, I always consider the framerate worth less than the same framerate on a single card. For example, 30fps on an SLI set up is not the same as 30fps on a single card set up. What would be interesting to see in SLI reviews is the maximum frame spacing for a given set up and if that corresponds better to playability than framerate (particularly at low FPS). I'd do it, but I dont have an SLI set up

 

[thehybridfrog]

Here's your microstutter. It exists, trust me. It's just that I don't really notice it so I don't care that much.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, and this graph could be perfectly flat, no variation in frames and some people would STILL say they see it. It is an issue TOTALLY dependent on whom you ask.

 

[RamonGTP]

Yeah, and this graph could be perfectly flat, no variation in frames and some people would STILL say they see it. It is an issue TOTALLY dependent on who you ask.

Until that happens, you're just being extremely ignorant not tomention stubborn about the whole thing.

You wanted to hear of ONE person who own 480's and experienced it and you got it

You wanted proof that it even exists with 480's, you got that too.

It's not flat, period end of story.

 

[thehybridfrog]

Yeah, and this graph could be perfectly flat, no variation in frames and some people would STILL say they see it. It is an issue TOTALLY dependent on whom you ask.

Wat, but it's not flat.

 

[heatlesssun]

Until that happens, you're just being extremely ignorant not tomention stubborn about the whole thing.

You wanted to hear of ONE person who own 480's and experienced it and you got it

You wanted proof that it even exists with 480's, you got that too.

It's not flat, period end of story.

Please don't start. Look there's a whole thread here that supports the idea that this is an OBSERVER DEPENDENT phenomena and I've been talking to people for YEARS about this subject. I never said its flat. I said if it WERE that microstuttering wouldn't magically go away for ALL OBSERVERS.. People even claim that this effects single GPUs BTW.

 

[jeremyshaw]

While water cooling can be loud, by no means does it need to be loud.

I went with water cooling for three reasons:

snipped because I am on iPhone.


I put my hd5870 into my htpc, as it is utterly silent under idle, but has decent oomph (Hd3450 was failing under Hurt Locker bluray). Under load, in a quiet, hardwall enviorment, it is definately audible under load, but it isn't heard while playing videos. Now my gtx480 is my sole desktop gpu
Posted via [H] Mobile Device

 

[heatlesssun]

Wat, but it's not flat.

Then adjust the settings, make it flat and then see if it goes away for the observer. It's as simple as that. It may, it MAY NOT.

 

[thehybridfrog]

I don't get it, doesn't that graph prove microstutter (difference in time rendered between frames) exists? Or did I make that up, maybe I made up 37000 data points. I'll do it with a single GTX 480 and see what happens I guess. I'll try to make it flat with SLI as best I can, but I can't make up 37000 data points that easily.

I didn't pull that graph out of my ass. I played the game, recorded my FPS/time rendered between frames and graphed it. I don't even know where to begin to make it flat.

 

[heatlesssun]

Look I am not saying you made anything up. This debate has been going on since about day one of SLI and CF and I've seen these graphs before. I've never seen however anyone say totally consistent rendering times will actually SOLVE microstuttering for all observers is all I'm saying.

And single GPUs suffer the same fate though I assume to a lesser degree. One GPU doesn't magically mean consistent rendering times.

If this is THE definiation of microstuttering then it should go away for ALL observers if rendering times are more consistent, within the level of human observable tolarance, whatever that may be. I simply have never heard that IS THE FIX FOR EVERYONE. If it is then adjusting settings so that you get more consistent times should ALWAYS fix the problem. I do believe that it can, at least for me. I've said plenty of times in the thread that in the the few cases I've seen microstuttering that's EXACTLY what I did, like triple buffering and it did help me.

But as this thread indicates, I can say what helps me all day long. It proves nothing to anyone else.

 

[Tudz]

Yeah, and this graph could be perfectly flat, no variation in frames and some people would STILL say they see it. It is an issue TOTALLY dependent on whom you ask.

Umm, no. If the graph is totally flat and they still say they see it, then its a placebo effect. While the graph shows inconsistency in the frame rendering times, then its a real effect and the only question is whether or not its perceivable.

 

[thehybridfrog]

Look I am not saying you made anything up. This debate has been going on since about day one of SLI and CF and I've seen these graphs before. I've never seen however anyone say totally consistent rendering times will actually SOLVE microstuttering for all observers is all I'm saying.

And single GPUs suffer the same fate though I assume to a lesser degree. One GPU doesn't magically mean consistent rendering times.

If this is THE definiation of microstuttering then it should go away for ALL observers if rendering times are more consistent, within the level of human observable tolarance, whatever that may be. I simply have never heard that IS THE FIX FOR EVERYONE. If it is then adjusting settings so that you get more consistent times should ALWAYS fix the problem. I do believe that it can, at least for me. I've said plenty of times in the thread that in the the few cases I've seen microstuttering that's EXACTLY what I did, like triple buffering and it did help me.

But as this thread indicates, I can say what helps me all day long. It proves nothing to anyone else.

I believe I have solved microstutter after 30 minutes of testing. Vsync apparently, omg who would have thought Vsync helps give the viewer consistent frame rendering! As you can see, Vsync=ON gives GTX 480 SLI more consistent rendering than Vsync=OFF for a single GTX 480.

Everybody complaining about microstutter turn on Vsync and give it a rest.

/thread

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Vsync causes input lag. Read up on it. What's more important than a random graph is just one number: Frame time variance.

 

[Tolyngee]

/thread

Actually I think you just opened a new can o' worms...

Both of your graphs show that every 1.5 seconds that there's a spot where it takes 1/3rd of a second to render a frame... that's pretty bad...

Also, your v-sync on graph suggests your framerate improved (1309-1584) with v-sync on, which is baloney...

Unless it wasn't a comparison of the exact same thing being rendered?

 

[heatlesssun]

Everybody complaining about microstutter turn on Vsync and give it a rest.

/thread

Vsync causes input lag. Read up on it. What's more important than a random graph is just one number: Frame time variance.

See this is EXACTLY what I mean. thehybridfrog, earlier in the thread I talked about v-sync and of course the response was input lag. Even at 120Hz people still say its a problem.

I'm sorry but when you poke this issue here, then something else bludges out. I've read TONS of stuff on this issue over the years and I have yet to see ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE.

 

[heatlesssun]

Umm, no. If the graph is totally flat and they still say they see it, then its a placebo effect. While the graph shows inconsistency in the frame rendering times, then its a real effect and the only question is whether or not its perceivable.

But the graph will never be toally flat and the question is what is the maximum delta of the rendering times at which microstuttering is imperceptible to ANY human? I've yet to see ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE.

 

[thehybridfrog]

Actually I think you just opened a new can o' worms...

Both of your graphs show that every 1.5 seconds that there's a spot where it takes 1/3rd of a second to render a frame... that's pretty bad...

Also, your v-sync on graph suggests your framerate improved (1309-1584) with v-sync on, which is baloney...

Unless it wasn't a comparison of the exact same thing being rendered?

Uh, the first one is non-SLI, so a single 480 without Vsync. The second one is SLI-480's. I was trying to show that a single 480 can stutter more than 480-SLI.

Anyway, I just had an epiphany.

Stutter exists no matter what in both single and multi-gpu configurations when Vsync is off.

If Vsync is off, it stands to reason that your video cards are trying as hard as they can to output as many frames per second as possible.

If FPS goes up and down according to how hard they work, the time it takes to render a frame is always changing. It has to be since your FPS is changing, you can't deny this simple fact. If that's the case stutter will always exist no matter what with single and multi-gpu.

The only solution would be to Vsync it so that your GPU gives you frames at exact intervals. But input lag etc... so it sucks I guess.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

I'll just give you these two links. There's no point in debating anything here. Clearly whether or not microstutter or input lag with vsync exists, there's no real reason to argue since no one's going to convince heatlesssun of what his perceptions are. And honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about what he sees or doesn't see. I know what I see and I know what exists.

vsync issues: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794/2
microsttuter: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1317582

 

[Tolyngee]

Uh, the first one is non-SLI, so a single 480 without Vsync. The second one is SLI-480's. I was trying to show that a single 480 can stutter more than 480-SLI.

Oops, I failed to read that...

But, since you're getting the same framerates SLIed and non-SLIed, it shows you're CPU bound...

I'd rather see this comparison on a system that's not CPU-bottlenecked so we can really see what stutters the cards' themselves are really causing when they're being fully pushed...

 

[Tudz]

microsttuter: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1317582


How does microstuttering impact me in game?
Microstuttering can make playing what fraps is calling a 60fps game feel identical to playing a 30 fps game (literally, this is a potential true case mathmatically).

That was always been my issue with microstutter. If the frame rendering time has a large variation from one frame to the next, what gives a 60fps over the average of maybe 10 frames will actually feel more like 30fps if the maximum frame spacing is, say, 33ms. But, I haven't bought an SLI set up to test it, so whatever.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'll just give you these two links. There's no point in debating anything here. Clearly whether or not microstutter or input lag with vsync exists, there's no real reason to argue since no one's going to convince heatlesssun of what his perceptions are. And honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about what he sees or doesn't see. I know what I see and I know what exists.

vsync issues: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794/2
microsttuter: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1317582

You really didn't read anything I posted.
All I was saying that if you think that ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE has come out of the microstuttering issue you are mistaken. You can make the graph as flat as you like. There's ALWAYS something. Why do you think that professional reviewers don't talk about it a lot? It's an endless spiral.

 

[Tudz]

You really didn't read anything I posted.
All I was saying that if you think that ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE has come out of the microstuttering issue you are mistaken. You can make the graph as flat as you like. There's ALWAYS something. Why do you think that professional reviewers don't talk about it a lot? It's an endless spiral.

The reason nothing conclusive has come out of it is because you produce graphs showing the effect, people describe the effect, then people come along saying "I dont see stutter" when stutter isn't what the effect is describing in the first place.

 

[heatlesssun]

The reason nothing conclusive has come out of it is because you produce graphs showing the effect, people describe the effect, then people come along saying "I dont see stutter" when stutter isn't what the effect is describing in the first place.

Okay fine. Then it's not microstuttering but then the person still see stuttering and so then what is it? Really the web is full of stuttering stories, multi-GPU ANS single GPU.

And then if you flatten out the times with v-synch then there input lag. And if you throw more GPU power at then no that didn't solve the issue even though you can't even see it. It just never seems to ever have any kind of a conslusion. I mean, that's just obvious. I can take your answer, now convince EVERYONE else.

Good luck!

 

[thehybridfrog]

Ok here's "microstuttering"

The only true, smooth gameplay is a single GPU, Vsync'ed. Everything else will give you inconsistent frame rendering. That's my conclusion. The only true solution is:

1 GPU + Vsync = Microstutter solved

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

You really didn't read anything I posted.
All I was saying that if you think that ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE has come out of the microstuttering issue you are mistaken. You can make the graph as flat as you like. There's ALWAYS something. Why do you think that professional reviewers don't talk about it a lot? It's an endless spiral.

But
They
Do.

You read what you want to read and just ignore everything else. I linked the review of GTX 460 SLI earlier where [H] talked about smoothness issues with SLI which are 'not uncommon with multi-gpu setups.' I'm done here.

The only thing conclusive is that it's there. If you don't perceive it then good for you. Denying its existence because you spent $1500 on video cards is retarded.

Also, thehybridfrog, you've gotta be really naive to think that a multiplayer map is a control. Please, you're trying too hard with the wrong thing here.

 

[heatlesssun]

But
They
Do.

You read what you want to read and just ignore everything else. I linked the review of GTX 460 SLI earlier where [H] talked about smoothness issues with SLI which are 'not uncommon with multi-gpu setups.' I'm done here.

The only thing conclusive is that it's there. If you don't perceive it then good for you. Denying its existence because you spent $1500 on video cards is retarded.

Also, thehybridfrog, you've gotta be really naive to think that a multiplayer map is a control. Please, you're trying too hard with the wrong thing here.

Once again you didn't bother to read what I posted. I NEVER SAID MICROSTUTTERING DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good grief!

 

[Mr. K6]

Yes, water cooling can be loud. There are still fans involved. The higher performing the setup, the more noise it generates. The same as it does with air coolers. All things being equal its capable of better cooling while making less noise, but still it can get noisy. Mine isn't too bad, but if I crank the fan speeds all the way up, it gets loud as hell.

Well what he means is that the noise generated by even a single GeForce GTX 480 is unacceptable to him. He said nothing about performance. There are other factors he simply places ahead of performance in this case. While many enthusiasts do not care as much about factors aside from performance, there are still many people do.

Well said Dan, more or less my points .

Thanks for the info. However people reporting putting their 480s on water are doing it for noise reduction and they seem to be reporting that that's working for them fine and dandy. I should have been more specific. Water cooling is eliminating 480 fan noise from what I've head here

Well, quieting the GTX 480 isn't really a difficult feat, considering almost anything besides stock is an improvement. However, that doesn't make it acceptable for home use.

And I totally understand that and agree. But there are trade offs in everything and I would have to think that if some people actually saw what this hardware can do with their own eyes, I can't help but imagine that some might reconsider their position. I know I'm kinda in the extreme when it comes to performance but there are times when you see something say "Holly fuck!". I've simply been experiencing more of those moments in the last three weeks than can remember having in 30+ years of playing computers games.

And yeah I'm late to the multi-monitor game but putting 3D on top of that, 3D that actually can RUN well in Surround. Yeah its not for everyone but its just something I'm VERY glad I tried out. This is why I LOVE PC gaming, doing cool shit. And oh boy, 3D in Mafia II? Couple of demo reviews have said its amazing.
We've been talking about all the issues with multi-GPU, it's important to understand that there are just mind blowing benefits to this stuff as well. Some use are LITERALLY having experiences that other simply aren't even perceiving and that's something that I think those that might be more skeptical have to understand. This is a step beyond traditional gaming for those with the eyes and stomach.

3D gaming does nothing for me. I don't want to lose high-definition gaming (a la 30" LCD) to get some minor peripheral vision. Multi-GPU setups are not nearly as smooth as single GPU setups, and I tend to avoid them (although I do try them out from both camps as often as possible just to see if anything got better). I am well aware of what's out there and available today, just most of it is not appealing nor what I am satisfied with, so I usually try it and pass it on, and save my money for what I really want.

While water cooling can be loud, by no means does it need to be loud.

I went with water cooling for three reasons:

1. Noise
2. Performance
3. Heat

And I adressed all three.

In terms of noise, it's pretty simple to understand: using a 360mm radiator, you are spreading out the surface area over which you can dissipate the heat, and you are increasing the sizes of the fans you can use to cool. With air cooling, you're stuck with a small fan trying to cool the component directly.

Because larger fans can push way more CFMs at much lower rotation (RPM), you get far less noise. I've got an externally mounted radiator and even then it's an order of magnitude more quiet than hearing GPU fans at 70%.

It's hard to make it silent, but you can definitely make it quiet. That's obviously not going to work with a tiny HTPC, but no reasonable person expects an HTPC to run two or three video cards quietly. Getting an ATI solution wouldn't help you in that department at all; two or three high-end cards under load are NOT going to be silent under load on air.

At a given noise level, watercooling offers more cooling performance, I know, I ran a watercooled setup for awhile. However, water-cooling has a base-noise level that is almost impossible to lose, where as air cooling can literally be silent, and I am well below that threshold. And don't fool yourself into thinking that you can't have a sweet system in a small case or that isn't silent, you can. I ran 5850 CF for awhile and it was dead silent and just a whisper under load. Know your thermaldynamics and design your setups/cases well and you won't have a problem, it just takes a little more thinking.

As far as microstutter goes, it's a major issue and one of the reasons I don't run multi-GPU. Hopefully a better method of synchronizing GPU's will arise. And no, V-sync is not the answer, I don't want input lag too.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Once again you didn't bother to read what I posted. I NEVER SAID MICROSTUTTERING DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good grief!

Then stop saying there's nothing conclusive. Just say this in your next post: It's conclusive that microstutter exists but I'm fortunate enough not to notice it.

That's it, end of thread.

 

[heatlesssun]

Then stop saying there's nothing conclusive. Just say this in your next post: It's conclusive that microstutter exists but I'm fortunate enough not to notice it.

That's it, end of thread.

Once again wrong. What I said is that the SOLUTION isn't conclusive or doesn't lead to some other issue coming up.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Once again wrong. What I said is that the SOLUTION isn't conclusive or doesn't lead to some other issue coming up.

There is no solution. Keep trying.