Multi GPU's and gamers

[CMD]

My son says that he hates gaming on my dual gpu system. He says that he can tell thats there is some sort of microlag that can throw off his aim/sniping.

My question is do the pro gamers use multi gpu systems?

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't know the answer to your question, but they would have to I'd think, it kicks the shit out of single GPU. What games? All of them? Does he play on a console? Dual 5850s? My guess is that maybe you just have a faster system than he's used to.

Honestly this comes up and when it does there's usually a setting or tweak or driver that tends to clear things up.

 

[bizzmeister]

No such thing. You're son sounds like one of those kids who plays call of duty modern warfare 2 on xbox 360 and talks a lot of shit lol. Nah, Im just kidding. I certainly dont have this issue you're son speaks of.

 

[shansoft]

Some people can tell there is a stutter, some people don't.

I can tell you there is a DELAY on multi-GPU, in CS Source is very noticeable if you play the game too much...

 

[dccmadams]

I can tell on shooters. I have had 3850s, 3870s, 4830s, 4850s, 4870s, 4890s, 5770s,5850s, 5870s all in crossfire. Also plenty of nvidia sli setups. I tried many, many combos. Its my hobby, and I can tell. I wish I couldnt. I may try the gtx 460s and see what happens, as if I dont already know. But, maybe I will be surprised someday.

 

[CMD]

OK, guys thanks for the input and yes his system is just like this one, but he has a single 5850. He plays all the new games and MMO's that have good PvP in them. He is close to the top tier in CS and BF:BC 2.

I show him the benckmark and the speed of the two videocards, but that does not matter to him.
I even put the second card into his computer while he was away to see what he would say, He knew.

 

[BravO)))]

Is he running Vsync?

 

[heatlesssun]

Hmmm, maybe I'm not that good of a gamer, but really, I just am very skeptical about these claims across ALL systems and configs with mutli-GPU. Like I say I've seen it but it's been a while. I did some input lag tests on Source games, CS, Portal, HL2, with the v-sync on at 120Hz and man, someone must have WAY better perception than me. These games run at max at 5760x1080 and with v-sync almost NEVER drop below 120FPS. I'll sit, take my 4000DPI mouse and tap it as gently as possible, instantanous reposnse on screen, I tried this for a damn hour. Nothin' , but fast as hell and instant on Source games in 2D Sournd. Its just fracking beautiful.

I'd sure like to find someone who could pick this up and tell me that it affects their gaming. And to actually have a way to prove it. I just don't believe that ANYONE can see this across all games and multi-GPU configs. I just don't.

 

[dccmadams]

I see more of a shimmering effect, lack of smoothness with 2 cards. They benchmark great, bang out big numbers, but if I get any stutter/lag at all, I am pissed. I didnt spend 2 card money, to have glitches while I am playing. The kid has no reason to make up stories. My son is very sensitive to any slowdown also. He cant stand it.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

I don't know the answer to your question, but they would have to I'd think, it kicks the shit out of single GPU.

I'm pretty sure it's the complete opposite. Who cares if you can run 16xSSAA at 2560x1600 or something. Pro gamers likely run at 1024x768 and they really couldn't care less about quality settings as long as it doesn't interfere with the game. Any single GPU can easily handle any game on the pro scene. There's no reason to use more than one.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm pretty sure it's the complete opposite. Who cares if you can run 16xSSAA at 2560x1600 or something. Pro gamers likely run at 1024x768 and they really couldn't care less about quality settings as long as it doesn't interfere with the game. Any single GPU can easily handle any game on the pro scene. There's no reason to use more than one.

They may not need the eye candy but wouldn't they LIKE the field of view? That's one of the things that gamers around here say is great about multi-monitor.

 

[IRSmurf]

Pro gamers don't play games with high end graphics.

The playing field of gamers with systems capable of running these games is too small, around the world, and eliminates too much competition.

Regarding the stutter, that's largely a non-issue, anymore. I can at least confirm it is not an issue with SLI GTX 480's. Nothing my eyes/brain can detect, anyway.

 

[DeathPrincess]

My son says that he hates gaming on my dual gpu system. He says that he can tell thats there is some sort of microlag that can throw off his aim/sniping.

My question is do the pro gamers use multi gpu systems?

At some point in my life I did yes. But I was very very young, and it was when people used ball mice competitively, it was a well know game and I was ranked in the dual figure kind of numbers. I also do various sound things...that need timings and beat matching, to 1000s of a beat, listening to lots of badly produced music gives me a headache. Ive got me some dual 470's and it's fine...
It could be any number of things, monitor, mouse, kb, different mousepad feel. Different DPI throws people off more than they realise, especially if your used to a particular mouse. I know it was put in the same system, but even something being faster can throw off someones game if thats what their used to. At those kind of speeds too fast could seem too slow.

 

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Turn off Crossfire in the CCC and let him play. See if he can feel the difference then.

 

[IRSmurf]

Turn off Crossfire in the CCC and let him play. See if he can feel the difference then.

Yea, have him play with CF off, then CF on. Don't tell him when it's on or off, though. This may be largely mind over matter.

 

[heatlesssun]

The OP said earlier that he added a second 5850 to his son's system and he noticed the difference.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

They may not need the eye candy but wouldn't they LIKE the field of view? That's one of the things that gamers around here say is great about multi-monitor.

The added FOV gives more immersion. Whether or not it improves your skill in a game is going to vary from person to person. I was worse at FPS games for a long time since it took some getting used to. I'm not sure if a 'pro gamer' is going to meddle with that or even care about it.

 

[rtd]

They may not need the eye candy but wouldn't they LIKE the field of view? That's one of the things that gamers around here say is great about multi-monitor.

You're right and wrong. They use commands to increase the field of view and most play on a 120hz lcd/crt with a 4:3 or 5:4 ratio res 800x600 and 1024x768 are the most common reses. It is extremely easy for anybody who plays with dumbed down settings to notice any performance hitch. We are talking even a fps jump is noticeable. This is why most competitive players will play with a min/max fps capped.So,yes after playing the same engine long enough and knowing every pixel to the point you don't go "ooh" anymore and nothing is new.

It's a bit more difficult to tell the difference in dpi if you math out your sensitivity but it's extremely easy to notice acceleration or negative accel or even if mouse smoothing/reduce input lag is on or off. I would be willing to bet more than half the people who game here don't use a mouse fix or even know what it's for.

Personally I am going to try SLI for the first time. Not sure If I'll like it. I'm by no means pro but I would consider myself competitive and apt.

 

[Sly]

Pro gamers don't play games with high end graphics.

This is true. The best ones i've played with may have the best cards and cpu's but when playing online or competitively, they turn all the graphical options way down. Less motion blur and effects to keep the line of sight clear, just enough shadow to make their outline stand out more in the distance (Some games have a glitch where the shadow goes through walls), lowest map texture to practically a single color to make players more distinct.

Flashbang, smoke grenades, grass, fog, rippling water, etc. Look nice in single player, but on multiplayer, the one with the lower speced PC wins. We at [H] rate hardware between Entry, Enthusiast and [H]-Core. But gamers are a different category altogether that isn't necessarily related to hardware.

 

[AdvanSuper]

My question is do the pro gamers use multi gpu systems?

There is a difference between pro gamers and gamers who like to enjoy a game for it's visuals.

Pro gamers use tweaked out configs to pull as much FPS as they can and most of the time it's not the prettiest thing to look at. I also doubt there is any "microlag" tell him to turn down the mouse sensitivity or set it the same to whatever he uses on another PC.

 

[Raap]

Not sure why anyone would actually be surprised by this. Microstutter on multiple GPUs was documented long ago, and neither ATI nor Nvidia have done anything to fix the issue( probably isn't even possible, at least not in AFR mode).

That said, you're sure you weren't just running with Vsync on when he was playing? That could have been what put him off, since microstutter shouldn't really be noticeable at 100+ fps.

 

[Tolyngee]

Pro gamers don't play games with high end graphics.

The playing field of gamers with systems capable of running these games is too small, around the world, and eliminates too much competition.

I've always been under the impression it's because these people don't have real jobs, thus no real income.

They "splurge" to get the latest card for them (a 5770 if really lucky, or maybe even just a 4890 or 9800GT...), then for the next month or two they're barely scraping by and affording their Ramen noodles so they can actually eat something...

Thirteen years ago when I was young I might have dropped down to McD or Banquet tv dinners to quickly by a Voodoo card, but I've only ever eaten Ramen noodles by choice...

If they want to instantly save money, they should try... drinking water? Not only is it absolutely free, but it's healthier than what I typically see them drinking... (Ever see someone with Ramen noodles and a case of Red Bull or No Fear? You could easily consume healthier both directions and save money to boot...)

 

[Dan_D]

The "Microstutter" topic comes up periodically. I find it odd that the topic never came up until the advent of the 7950GX2 cards. Granted those cards are probably what put it on everyone's radar as they suffered from the problem in the worst way because NVIDIA couldn't get their shit together as far as drivers went. The 9800GX2 cards were better, but not great. I've never tried the GeForce GTX 295 so I can't comment on that one. I've had multi-GPU configurations since the GeForce 6800GT/Ultra days and have had examples of the technology from just about every generation. I did skip the 7950GX2 as those were pieces of shit and I knew that early on. With most games I've rarely ever, if ever noticed "microstuttering." With first person shooters its the most noticeable, but again it depends on the game and hardware I've used. I have never noticed it in any Unreal Tournament game. I have never noticed the problem in any Call of Duty. Call of Duty though is well known as being one of the best titles for multi-GPU support as its scaling is damned near perfect be it Crossfire, CrossfireX, or any form of SLI. In fact there were really only a few games I ever noticed "microstutter" as its typically defined. The better examples of that were Crysis, Age of Conan and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky. In those games it was apparent almost constantly. Driver and GPU hardware evolution with both SLI and Crossfire have eliminated most of this but sadly long after I really stopped playing those games. Though I intend to revisit S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky soon.

In any case whats often worse and far more common than "microstutter" is the inevitable highs and lows of multi-GPU gaming. Frame rate fluctuations are larger and more apparent than they are in single GPU configurations. I think this is really what people feel and see more so than actual microstuttering. The two are seemingly often confused despite being very different problems. Microstuttering with most modern GPUs and games is damned near as difficult to prove as the existence of Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster and Unicorns. I have never seen the problem with the 4870 X2 or the 5970's. Both of which I've owned. I've had 3-Way SLI configurations and again I never saw microstuttering. When I did see it, I was always using dual GPU cards but since the inception of the 4870 X2, I haven't. So while it may exist, most of what I see people bitching about are the constant frame rate fluctuations, not microstutter.

Unfortunately you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you want to push high resolutions in the latest games or drive multiple high resolution panels via Eyefinity or NVSurround you have little choice but to adopt multi-GPU technology in some form. Most of the time when I've seen people bitch about microstuttering or telling people not to get dual GPU cards or use Crossfire or SLI its always people running lower end to mid range cards that have had no experience with the technology or limited experience at best.

 

[Raap]

I don't know, Don. I think the reason why it's been less of an issue now is simply because GPU power has increased so much compared to game requirements. Games you mention that you haven't noticed it in( UT, CoD, etc.) are highly optimized console games/ports which run at extremely high FPS with any modern multi-GPU setup; they run fine even on mediocre single-GPU cards. Since microstuttering isn't very noticeable until you get down into the sub-40 or 30 FPS range, you won't really notice it in a game where you're running constantly at 60++ FPS. Conan and Crysis on the other hand, are far more graphical intensive applications, which is why it's noticeable in those games.

It's easy enough to prove microstuttering with fraps if you use the frametime thingy and log it. Can't remember where this pic was from( Anand perhaps? ), but it shows the effect multi-GPUs have on frametime variance very well.

Obviously the higher fps, the less variance in ms( though not in %, but that doesn't matter in this case), thus making it less noticeable.

 

[heatlesssun]

I still have my two 7950GX2s, yeah not the greatest.

As for microstutter again, yes I have seen but yes there's been tweaks that I've found like triplr buffering that seem to fix it when I have seen it most of the time. Sometimes you might have to reduce a setting.

That said with my current sig rig I just don't see it. I can turn on v-sych and lot of games lock in at 120 FPS in 2D Surround. It's the SMOOTHEST gaming experience I've ever had, couting single GPU experiences. I'd love to see someone who could detect DEMONSTRABLY on Source game on this rig when the frame rate is LOCKED at a consistent 120 FPS.

Yes it has been an issue, far more in the past than now for me and with these 120 Hz monitors and games locking in framerates to match, nope, don't believe that under those conditions anyone can see it.

 

[Kwisatz Haderach]

So far in the my current rig the only thing close is on Metro, when it drops to 35fps is the only time I can notice anything. I have no problems with Crysis.

I just wish Bioshock 2 would use two cards. So far, this is the only game I have that will not use Crossfire.

 

[xp3nd4bl3]

It's definitely real, as the OP's son observed. As others have stated it's much less noticable at higher framerates. For competitve gaming use 1 GPU and turn all the settings down. For fun gaming crank it up and ignore the microstutter.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's definitely real, as the OP's son observed. As others have stated it's much less noticable at higher framerates. For competitve gaming use 1 GPU and turn all the settings down. For fun gaming crank it up and ignore the microstutter.

Nope. Until someone tells me that at 120Hz in game locked in AT 120FPS they can observe microstutter and prove it, I don't believe it. Everyone has been saying that Pro gamers don't use high end stuff, so they are stuck with 60Hz monitors with other issues.

As Raap was stating. With the power of something like tripple 480s combined with the fact that consolitis is in a lot of PC games, I think top end hardware now is SO powerful that this issue has been largely mitigated because of these factors. Though in twice the refresh rate one is used to with no lag, no tearing, no hitching, and I call BS on this. The screen is updating twice as fast as you're used to, the framerates are LOCKED, HOW can you see stutter? Wouldn't you notice the slow screen refresh rate on a 60Hz single monitor much more?

 

[Dan_D]

Well locking the frame rate with V-Sync and overpowering the game through GPU power hides the issue. It doesn't make it non-existent. But in the end not noticing it or seeing it eliminates it as far as the player is concerned. As others said its mostly apparent at sub-60FPS speeds.

 

[IRSmurf]

I've always been under the impression it's because these people don't have real jobs, thus no real income.

They "splurge" to get the latest card for them (a 5770 if really lucky, or maybe even just a 4890 or 9800GT...), then for the next month or two they're barely scraping by and affording their Ramen noodles so they can actually eat something...

Thirteen years ago when I was young I might have dropped down to McD or Banquet tv dinners to quickly by a Voodoo card, but I've only ever eaten Ramen noodles by choice...

If they want to instantly save money, they should try... drinking water? Not only is it absolutely free, but it's healthier than what I typically see them drinking... (Ever see someone with Ramen noodles and a case of Red Bull or No Fear? You could easily consume healthier both directions and save money to boot...)

That and... people in many other countries don't have access to jobs that allow them to buy $500 video cards. That's why Starcraft 2 is so graphically limited. They don't want people with a $500 gpu and a $1,000, 2560x1600 monitor to have any advantage over a $200 gpu and a $200, 720p monitor.

And while it's tempting to argue there are more adult gamers (21+) than kid gamers, the youth (16-21) generally dominate competitive FPS games. I don't know enough to comment on competitive RTS.

 

[Dan_D]

Well I think the high end market will primarily be dominated by adults. After all unless you've got parents willing to pay for an expensive computer gaming hobby, you need a decent paying job to afford 30" monitors, 3 GeForce GTX 480's and stuff like that. The fact that not too many adults in their 30's are hardcore gamers, I'd say the high end gaming market is definitely a niche.

 

[the_real_7]

Ive seen microstutter before like back 3 years ago with the GeForce 9800 GX2 when i had it , most likely i think was do to the low 512 memory , but since the 4870 x 2 i used to have it never seen again in current con figs , I'm so confident its not there anymore I just ordered a second 5870 from a member here on [H] if i get a clue of it I lower setting and run 1 card period . . . Ive two identical gaming screens though and one does have like stutter and lags a bit when i see like a rotating gun in crysis , while the other screen doesn't

 

[RamonGTP]

No such thing. You're son sounds like one of those kids who plays call of duty modern warfare 2 on xbox 360 and talks a lot of shit lol. Nah, Im just kidding. I certainly dont have this issue you're son speaks of.

Or you just don't know what you're talking about. It's been shown that micro stuttering DOES happen. It's severity depends on the game, the hardware and the settings and whether or not you notice it varies from individual to individual. Certainly, your experience isn't the law we're all governed by.

 

[LAiN_OfTheWired]

I bet he reads the internet.

Also - pre-rendering. Does anybody know if its possible to change this in ATI drivers? That's the only thing I miss about nVidia drivers is the ability to turn pre-rendered frames to 0 and watch my input lag almost disappear. If its possible within ATI drivers anywhere, drop this down to 0. It was the difference between me shotgun rushing and sniping when I used to play Gears of War for Windows.

I've never seen microstutter with my dual 5770s.

 

[heatlesssun]

Or you just don't know what you're talking about. It's been shown that micro stuttering DOES happen. It's severity depends on the game, the hardware and the settings and whether or not you notice it varies from individual to individual. Certainly, your experience isn't the law we're all governed by.

If this is his first multi-GPU rig, yeah, he ain't gonna see no stikin' microstutter. Look at Kyles review, 480 SLI is fucking phenomenal right now.

 

[Tolyngee]

That and... people in many other countries don't have access to jobs that allow them to buy $500 video cards.

I was under the impression that these other countries you speak of are primarily consisting of gamers at cyber cafes though? I assumed they may (though I could be very wrong) have better systems at these cafes than what they could put together at home, otherwise they'd already have that machine at home.

Well I think the high end market will primarily be dominated by adults. After all unless you've got parents willing to pay for an expensive computer gaming hobby, you need a decent paying job to afford 30" monitors, 3 GeForce GTX 480's and stuff like that. The fact that not too many adults in their 30's are hardcore gamers, I'd say the high end gaming market is definitely a niche.

If I had kids and assuming I could still afford the hobby, I imagine when I upgraded I would simply make the ol' system a hand-me-down to the kid.

For instance, that might mean for Xmas this year the child would get an i7-920 system OCed to ~3.6 with SLIed (maybe even tri-SLIed) GTX 480s. (Once the new video cards are out and perhaps I go with a six-core CPU).

If the kid wants to whine, well, he can learn to handle the disappointment, otherwise the little bastard sure ain't going to live too long...

 

[DeathPrincess]

Nope. Until someone tells me that at 120Hz in game locked in AT 120FPS they can observe microstutter and prove it, I don't believe it. Everyone has been saying that Pro gamers don't use high end stuff, so they are stuck with 60Hz monitors with other issues

Pro gamers used ball mice and CRTs! Well they did in 1998. But 12 years on, 12 years happened. People like to complain about the tinest thing when their being "pro gamers" because the smaller thing they notice the more elite pro hardcore they are. OMG he can notice a millionth of a pixel out of line, that means he can like headshot people if their hit frame deviates like deviates 1 pixel from behind things. Sometimes you can, but most of the time its just posturing. If you went to a tournament and bitch'n'moaned about every little thing you wouldn't do so well. Like I said before, too fast can seem too slow. If millionth of a second lag is giving people headaches then their going to hate playing online/LAN. If something so small is throwing someones game then they need to practice more. In a real tournament theres 100's of things that cause slowdown and framerates will jump around manically at times. You just have to learn to deal with it. Like being a sniper, it's no good if you can only hit targets when the winds not blowing.

 

[Mega666]

Enable vsync.

 

[Dan_D]

Enable vsync.

Many people hate V-Sync and do not consider that a viable option.

 

[rtd]

I still have my two 7950GX2s, yeah not the greatest.

As for microstutter again, yes I have seen but yes there's been tweaks that I've found like triplr buffering that seem to fix it when I have seen it most of the time. Sometimes you might have to reduce a setting.

That said with my current sig rig I just don't see it. I can turn on v-sych and lot of games lock in at 120 FPS in 2D Surround. It's the SMOOTHEST gaming experience I've ever had, couting single GPU experiences. I'd love to see someone who could detect DEMONSTRABLY on Source game on this rig when the frame rate is LOCKED at a consistent 120 FPS.

Yes it has been an issue, far more in the past than now for me and with these 120 Hz monitors and games locking in framerates to match, nope, don't believe that under those conditions anyone can see it.

Triple buffering is bad, this increases input lag.

Nope. Until someone tells me that at 120Hz in game locked in AT 120FPS they can observe microstutter and prove it, I don't believe it. Everyone has been saying that Pro gamers don't use high end stuff, so they are stuck with 60Hz monitors with other issues.

As Raap was stating. With the power of something like tripple 480s combined with the fact that consolitis is in a lot of PC games, I think top end hardware now is SO powerful that this issue has been largely mitigated because of these factors. Though in twice the refresh rate one is used to with no lag, no tearing, no hitching, and I call BS on this. The screen is updating twice as fast as you're used to, the framerates are LOCKED, HOW can you see stutter? Wouldn't you notice the slow screen refresh rate on a 60Hz single monitor much more?

.

I personally notice when my fps drop from 125 to 119 in quake live. I would have little trouble noticing any frame rate change. I can't tell you if it's 180 frames or 125 but I can tell you it's not what it's locked at because it's not as fluid. I assure you "pro" gamers were probably the first to jump on the 120hz bandwagon, those monitors were actually used at dreamhack and IEM. A lot of the "Pro" gamers have very good computers. The difference is a lot of them would rather play 800x600 x160hz or 120hz on a crt than a LCD.

Well locking the frame rate with V-Sync and overpowering the game through GPU power hides the issue. It doesn't make it non-existent. But in the end not noticing it or seeing it eliminates it as far as the player is concerned. As others said its mostly apparent at sub-60FPS speeds.

V-Sync is terrible and nobody uses it.

Enable vsync.

V-Sync is terrible and nobody uses it.

I've always been under the impression it's because these people don't have real jobs, thus no real income.

They "splurge" to get the latest card for them (a 5770 if really lucky, or maybe even just a 4890 or 9800GT...), then for the next month or two they're barely scraping by and affording their Ramen noodles so they can actually eat something...

Thirteen years ago when I was young I might have dropped down to McD or Banquet tv dinners to quickly by a Voodoo card, but I've only ever eaten Ramen noodles by choice...

If they want to instantly save money, they should try... drinking water? Not only is it absolutely free, but it's healthier than what I typically see them drinking... (Ever see someone with Ramen noodles and a case of Red Bull or No Fear? You could easily consume healthier both directions and save money to boot...)

ROFL, You're so off base it's not even worthy of an explanation.

There is a difference between pro gamers and gamers who like to enjoy a game for it's visuals.

Pro gamers use tweaked out configs to pull as much FPS as they can and most of the time it's not the prettiest thing to look at. I also doubt there is any "microlag" tell him to turn down the mouse sensitivity or set it the same to whatever he uses on another PC.

You have never been to a friendly lan or a tournament with competitive gamers, have you? Do you know how long it takes them to set up/adjust their sensitivity when they have to use the tournament computers?



@ this thread, fluidity, consistency, response time. If all is smooth and responsive it won't matter to them whether you have 5 vid cards or 1.