Multi GPU's and gamers

[OldSchool]

We're talking about a kid here too, they tend to have keener senses than adults. I certainly haven't gotten any better with age (28 now). A minor difference that appears after thorough analysis may be dismissed by adults with dulled senses as "negligible", but it is certainly possible that a kid could percieve that difference.

Recently I bought a new monitor to replace my dying CRT and I have sadly noticed a difference in my own gaming performance. I now run at 1920x1200 @ 60hz whereas I used to run at 1280x960 @ 120hz on my CRT... and I get pwned more now

 

[Tolyngee]

ROFL, You're so off base it's not even worthy of an explanation.

How far off base can I be?

You don't like even the suggestion of a proper 750TX PSU for a GTX 460 SLI config, but discuss being able to tell even the slightest change in framerate, when a single GTX 480 will be much better in that regard than SLIed GTX 460s.

I'm aware if your budget wasn't gimped somewhere, you'd have the 750W PSU and a GTX 480, or two GTX 480s if you were going SLI.

For someone serious about gaming, it's obvious you're not about to gimp your style. So, it must be your budget. Someone serious about their hobby doesn't give a second though to throwing down a little over $500 for a GTX 480 and upgrading their PSU if needed.

Again, assuming they can afford it. Someone with a serious hobby will throw $500 at it if they have $500 to throw at it. If they don't, they "try" something lower that may gimp their style.

 

[heatlesssun]

I personally notice when my fps drop from 125 to 119 in quake live. I would have little trouble noticing any frame rate change. I can't tell you if it's 180 frames or 125 but I can tell you it's not what it's locked at because it's not as fluid. I assure you "pro" gamers were probably the first to jump on the 120hz bandwagon, those monitors were actually used at dreamhack and IEM. A lot of the "Pro" gamers have very good computers. The difference is a lot of them would rather play 800x600 x160hz or 120hz on a crt than a LCD.

All I was saying that in the senarios I was describing where frame rates are LOCKED at 120, v-sync is locked at 20Hz and on a low lag monitor like the OptX, I just don't ever professional gamers would see mircostuter. Differences in frame rates are easy to easy. You say you can see notice the difference in a game of 6 frame difference between 125 and 119, that I can buy, I can notice about that myself in certain games. But in my scenario the rates to COMPLETELY constant, no fluctuation and the refresh rate matches.

I think that very,very,very few even pro gamers could see microstutter when everything is locked thay high. At any rate I would need to proof to convience me. Not saying its impossible I simply think that it would be rare even with pro gamers.

V-Sync is terrible and nobody uses it.

It's not terrible at 120Hz.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Nope. Until someone tells me that at 120Hz in game locked in AT 120FPS they can observe microstutter and prove it, I don't believe it. Everyone has been saying that Pro gamers don't use high end stuff, so they are stuck with 60Hz monitors with other issues.

Huh? CRT's aren't 60 Hz.

 

[heatlesssun]

Huh? CRT's aren't 60 Hz.

Were we just talking about CRTs?

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Were we just talking about CRTs?

A lot of pro gamers game on CRT's for that very reason.

There seems to be a distinct difference between gamers, hardcore gamers, and actual PRO gamers here. Clearly I'm not a pro gamer so I have my own preference in hardware. But if you're talking about pros I highly doubt multi-gpu setups are attractive for all the reasons that have been beaten to the ground in this thread. I'm also clearly not hating on multi-GPU setups, multi-monitor setups, or high end hardware considering I own them.

 

[RamonGTP]

If this is his first multi-GPU rig, yeah, he ain't gonna see no stikin' microstutter. Look at Kyles review, 480 SLI is fucking phenomenal right now.

Listen, just becuase you own a multi-gpu setup doesn't mean it's a perfect setup. There is no such thing as a perfect setup, mine isn't perfect neither is anyone elses, and yes, that includes you. Get over yourself.

 

[heatlesssun]

Listen, just becuase you own a multi-gpu setup doesn't mean it's a perfect setup. There is no such thing as a perfect setup, mine isn't perfect neither is anyone elses, and yes, that includes you. Get over yourself.

Who said anything about something being perfect? These setups simply kick the shit out of everything else at the moment. I think Kyle wrote nice piece about that subject today. Get over YOURSELF.

 

[thehybridfrog]

Pro gamers game on whatever they get for free from their sponsors or whatever is available at events.

Microstutter exists but it does not detract from my immersion in games. I also am not gaming long enough in one session right now for it to bother me at all.

 

[RamonGTP]

Who said anything about something being perfect? These setups simply kick the shit out of everything else at the moment. I think Kyle wrote nice piece about that subject today. Get over YOURSELF.

No one is saying it doesn't "kick the shit out of everything else" yes, when you take 3 of the most powerful GPU's available, they will kick the shit out of everything else. Like I said, get over yourself, you're changing the topic to something it isn't in a lame attempt to defend it from any and all criticism. Micro-stuttering exists, that's not debatable, what is debatable is it's real world affect on games and gamers. Clearly, some people notice it, if no one did, the term wouldn't even exist.

I have nothing to get over, I'm telling it like it is and you're crying about it.

 

[heatlesssun]

No one is saying it doesn't "kick the shit out of everything else" yes, when you take 3 of the most powerful GPU's available, they will kick the shit out of everything else. Like I said, get over yourself, you're changing the topic to something it isn't in a lame attempt to defend it from any and all criticism. Micro-stuttering exists, that's not debatable, what is debatable is it's real world affect on games and gamers. Clearly, some people notice it, if no one did, the term wouldn't even exist.

I have nothing to get over, I'm telling it like it is and you're crying about it.

If you had bothered to read my previous posts I too said that microstutter exists. I simply said that I've not seen it with this current setup. Hell ask anyone with this type of setup if they've seen it. Once again you think I'm here to impress, got better things to do. Sure I like to do the typical chest pounding like everyone else, that's part of the fun.

 

[GoldenTiger]

You can tell simply from the frame times that the "microstutter" (NOT load stutter) would cause a perceived difference in framerates to someone with keen enough senses. Yes, there are the same amount of frames in a given second (let's pretend 120fps locked), but in sub-second timeframes you do end up with frames spread out and subsequently bunched together, resulting in the same frames per second but much different frame spacing. This will cause a "juttery" feeling, regardless, to some people. As to how many people would even think it existed let alone notice it if not for the placebo effect? Not many... by the time you have top-end cards in dual or tri-SLI you're going to have so many frames per second anyway that the frame spacing will never be enough to notice .

 

[GoldenTiger]

If you had bother to read my previous posts I too said that microstutter exists. I simply said that I've not seen it with this current setup. Hell ask anyone with this type of setup if they've seen it. Once again you think I'm here to impress. Sure I like to do the typical chest pounding like everyone else, that's part of the fun.

His ilk trashed my threads about the GTX 470 when it launched awhile back too when I was having fun talking about the new tech and comparing it to the 5870. They can't handle someone having a different opinion so instead lash out at people who are enjoying their setups and want to cheer about them or talk about them... the concept of "fun" doesn't enter what they view as politics.

P.S. Yes, I am jealous of your 3d surround tri-SLI GTX 480's .

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1510816
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1512122

 

[DarkStryke]

Hey Tiger how are your SLI'd 460's doing on that 30" beast?

 

[GoldenTiger]

Hey Tiger how are your SLI'd 460's doing on that 30" beast?

They're arriving tomorrow (Wednesday) from newegg... I'll post some comparisons to my GTX 470 oc'd (single card) sometime in the evening once I've gotten some time in with 'em and worked out their rough max OC . I'll definitely be testing a little with SLI disabled at max OC to see how it stacks up to what my 470 was doing.

 

[Arklight]

Well I think the high end market will primarily be dominated by adults. After all unless you've got parents willing to pay for an expensive computer gaming hobby, you need a decent paying job to afford 30" monitors, 3 GeForce GTX 480's and stuff like that. The fact that not too many adults in their 30's are hardcore gamers, I'd say the high end gaming market is definitely a niche.

And even when you get to the age, or point in life, when you can afford that stuff all of a sudden your bills go up. House, kids, new car, higher taxes (a personal favorite)....all of a sudden that new shiney job ain't so shiney. haha

With regards to earlier discussion pertaining to Professional Gamers, I had a friend who used to be heavily involved in that and he used to game on a 20" CRT (or was it 19"....I can't remember). His resolutuion was set to 1024x768 with just about every setting set to "Low" in the FPS he played/plays. AFAIK, he still uses the same setup.

 

[heatlesssun]

His ilk trashed my threads about the GTX 470 when it launched awhile back too when I was having fun talking about the new tech and comparing it to the 5870. They can't handle someone having a different opinion so instead lash out at people who are enjoying their setups and want to cheer about them or talk about them... the concept of "fun" doesn't enter what they view as politics.

P.S. Yes, I am jealous of your 3d surround tri-SLI GTX 480's .

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1510816
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1512122

Yeah, those threads were a lot of fun to read! Yeah GT, you seem to get a lot of joy from you toys. I mean, heaven forbid that on a PC hardware enthusiast site some be enthusiastic!

Like everyone else, you, me, even the Kyles of the world all were doing is telling people what we see. I don't have any reason to tell someone that I don't see something when I do or vice versa or to say something is cool when I think it sucks. What the hell for?

All this stuff is just metal and plastic with the shelf life of raw meat in 90F heat. There'll be something nicer and faster down the road, always is, be it AMD, nVidia, whomever. But geez, have some fun while you can!

 

[Sly]

You can tell simply from the frame times that the "microstutter" (NOT load stutter) would cause a perceived difference in framerates to someone with keen enough senses. Yes, there are the same amount of frames in a given second (let's pretend 120fps locked), but in sub-second timeframes you do end up with frames spread out and subsequently bunched together, resulting in the same frames per second but much different frame spacing. This will cause a "juttery" feeling, regardless, to some people. As to how many people would even think it existed let alone notice it if not for the placebo effect? Not many... by the time you have top-end cards in dual or tri-SLI you're going to have so many frames per second anyway that the frame spacing will never be enough to notice .

You mean like this?

Single GPU:

1..........2..........3..........4..........5..........6..........7..........8..........9

Dual GPU:

1..2......3..4......5..6......7..8......9..11......11..12......13..14......15...16.....17..18

Heatlesssun:

...Spacing? I just pack all those frames in there. No prob.



When i watch videos, the ones coverted from 29fps to 30fps or vice versa drives me crazy and i deem them unwatchable. I don't have a dual GPU so that's the closest thing i can relate to being a lowly mortal that doesn't have a 3d surround triple GTX 480.

 

[RamonGTP]

If you had bothered to read my previous posts I too said that microstutter exists. I simply said that I've not seen it with this current setup. Hell ask anyone with this type of setup if they've seen it. Once again you think I'm here to impress, got better things to do. Sure I like to do the typical chest pounding like everyone else, that's part of the fun.

I didn't bother reading your previous post becuase this wasn't about you or your rig, I wasn't even talking to you until YOU quoted ME saying

If this is his first multi-GPU rig, yeah, he ain't gonna see no stikin' microstutter. Look at Kyles review, 480 SLI is fucking phenomenal right now.

How do you know what he is and isn't going to see? And wtf does this have to do with 480 SLI? The OP has a 5850 xfire setup. As if that wasn't off topic enough, you go further off by saying how a tri-SLI 480 setup kicks the shit out of everythign else. Yeah, ok, we know this and what exactly does that have to do with the OP's topic?

There's a time and a place for a "hey, look at what I got" chest pounding, like a benchmark thread or a thread created by you for chest pounding purposes. This is neither.

 

[heatlesssun]

Heatlesssun:

...Spacing? I just pack all those frames in there. No prob.

Very nice graphical way to descibe the problem and pretty much what I was saying. And that seems to be the way this problem goes away accoring to most accounts.

 

[heatlesssun]

I didn't bother reading your previous post becuase this wasn't about you or your rig, I wasn't even talking to you until YOU quoted ME saying

Really, you're making way too much of this. bizzmeister SAID he hadn't seen the issue and my honest opionion is that if he hasn't seen it the past, I seriously doubt that he would see it with his current setup, not saying that its not possible, just unlikely. I mean, that's WHAT HE SAID. I just took him at his word.

All I've done like others is simply report my experience. Why you keep trying to make it about me I have no idea.

 

[RamonGTP]

Well maybe we're having a communication problem then. I wasn't doubting that HE hasn't seen it, but he very specifically said there is "no such thing" which is simply put, wrong. And that's where my reply was targeted.

 

[GotNoRice]

My experience with multi-GPU has been nothing but absolute and complete perfection. I get amazing performance in every single game I play and I have no real complaints to speak of. You all can bitch if you want, I'll be busy getting 5970 or better performance with 2 year old tech.

 

[Godmachine]

My son says that he hates gaming on my dual gpu system. He says that he can tell thats there is some sort of microlag that can throw off his aim/sniping.

My question is do the pro gamers use multi gpu systems?

You're kid is high , seriously though he might be noticing input latency from your LCD monitor as thats the only thing that makes sense (that or you're using wireless keyboard/mouse which sucks for any fast paced game).

Micro Stutter is a thing of the past , current gen cards (since you listed 5850s as the cards your running) don't suffer from it.

 

[edifyingkarma]

I can occasionally notice what some people call "microstutter". It is usually just a dip in FPS for a few ms. I feel the benefit of eyecandy and massive performance far outway and occasional small dip in fps.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

What he's probably talking about is micostutter where the GPUs tend to render with uneven spacing between the frames. Microstutter used to be a problem with early multugpu configurations, for all modern variants it's not a problem.

As I understand it, it's something that was only ever a problem when running a slow FPS anyway, too many people running at 30fps these days, microstutter is going to seem more obvious at this frame rate. When running at a minimum of 60fps (an average of about 80-90fps) it's certainly not a problem.

 

[Tolyngee]

As I understand it, it's something that was only ever a problem when running a slow FPS anyway, too many people running at 30fps these days, microstutter is going to seem more obvious at this frame rate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYnXxI1UjxE

I couldn't help but remember this example. All examples below 30, so slow framerate as a factor can be eliminated.

The dual-GPU card is winning the framerate war, but actually looks like the least smooth card of the bunch. Check out the explosion at ~1:50 versus the 280 and 4870, and the tree falling at 2:05 vs. the 280. The dual-GPU card is either winning or is equal in the framerate war, but the actual results certainly look much less smooth?

 

[Raap]

Yeah, that's why (most) people hated their 9800GX2 and why people switched to GTX280 instead, even though the 9800GX2 won most benchmarks against the GTX280 with early drivers( when the GX2 didn't run out of video memory).

The 9800GX2 simply felt 'sluggish' even when running at the same or higher fps than the GTX280. You'd see exactly the same thing if you did a similar comparison between the GTX295 and the GTX480, or the 4870X2 and the 5870. You just need to find a game which gets the dual-GPU cards( or CF/SLI setups) down in the sub-30 fps range.

 

[Tolyngee]

You'd see exactly the same thing if you did a similar comparison between the GTX295 and the GTX480, or the 4870X2 and the 5870. You just need to find a game which gets the dual-GPU cards( or CF/SLI setups) down in the sub-30 fps range.

I upgraded my 4870x2 to a 5870 to eliminate any potential micro-stutters issue, and was disappointed that I couldn't tell any difference, apart from the 5870 was marginally slower.

Never mind the 5870 GSOD issue, which caused me to abso-f-ing-lutely regret buying the 5870 since it had an extra $100+ price tag after selling the 4870x2...

I actually very much considered keeping the 4870x2 and selling the 5870... Took six months to fully resolve my GSOD issues...

 

[SavageThrash]

I run the laptop in my sig and I prefer to run with 1 GPU when I can. Definitely smoother.

 

[Dan_D]

Yeah, that's why (most) people hated their 9800GX2 and why people switched to GTX280 instead, even though the 9800GX2 won most benchmarks against the GTX280 with early drivers( when the GX2 didn't run out of video memory).

The 9800GX2 simply felt 'sluggish' even when running at the same or higher fps than the GTX280. You'd see exactly the same thing if you did a similar comparison between the GTX295 and the GTX480, or the 4870X2 and the 5870. You just need to find a game which gets the dual-GPU cards( or CF/SLI setups) down in the sub-30 fps range.

That's absolutely true. I switched from a GeForce 9800GX2 Quad-SLI setup to a GeForce GTX 280 SLI setup and never looked back. The card didn't have enough memory and I hated the microstuttering. Granted it didn't occur all the time but it did in some games.

 

[Raap]

I upgraded my 4870x2 to a 5870 to eliminate any potential micro-stutters issue, and was disappointed that I couldn't tell any difference,

Well, both those cards are so powerful that the only game you'd likely see/feel the difference would be Crysis at 25*16 using very high settings & high levels of AA. If the 4870X2 had supported Dx11, you'd probably also see it in Metro2033.

 

[Proxy]

As a competitive gamer, I do notice these things. Keep in mind as many people have posted here they have never seen these things occur, most not, but most casual gamers will not take notice to these things. Some games are more affected than others. Some have little almost no notice able stuttering, others it can cause a delay in reaction time to certain things. I'm not trying to open another can of worms here, but this is why I never play with vSync on. It causes what I personally call, "input lag". Even on a system that can constantly run 60 FPS in a game, the time it takes me to scope in, line up the shot, and kill you is quicker for me then say the other dude using 2 or more GPU's or vSync. I will say this though, these are not things that you see, so much as feel in the mouse and keyboard movements.

 

[heatlesssun]

Went to 3x 280 SLI from a single 9800GX2, yeah that was a WOW moment and I don't mean the RPG.

 

[Mr. K6]

I can tell on shooters. I have had 3850s, 3870s, 4830s, 4850s, 4870s, 4890s, 5770s,5850s, 5870s all in crossfire. Also plenty of nvidia sli setups. I tried many, many combos. Its my hobby, and I can tell. I wish I couldnt. I may try the gtx 460s and see what happens, as if I dont already know. But, maybe I will be surprised someday.

More or less my experience too. I try to check it out in both camps every other generation or so, but so far I haven't found a multi-GPU setup I was content with.

 

[heatlesssun]

Even on a system that can constantly run 60 FPS in a game, the time it takes me to scope in, line up the shot, and kill you is quicker for me then say the other dude using 2 or more GPU's or vSync.

Yes I've have seen microstutter. How do you think you'd do against a multi-GPU system that can lock in at 120 FPS with a 120 Hz refresh rate?

 

[Proxy]

Yes I've have seen microstutter. How do you think you'd do against a multi-GPU system that can lock in at 120 FPS with a 120 Hz refresh rate?

Depends on the game hahaha. If it's a game I don't play like CoD then probably just okay since I don't know the game as well as some one who plays it often.

 

[rtd]

As a competitive gamer, I do notice these things. Keep in mind as many people have posted here they have never seen these things occur, most not, but most casual gamers will not take notice to these things. Some games are more affected than others. Some have little almost no notice able stuttering, others it can cause a delay in reaction time to certain things. I'm not trying to open another can of worms here, but this is why I never play with vSync on. It causes what I personally call, "input lag".

Yea, this is why I don't use vsync or triple buffering.

Even on a system that can constantly run 60 FPS in a game, the time it takes me to scope in, line up the shot, and kill you is quicker for me then say the other dude using 2 or more GPU's or vSync.

This is exactly what I am trying to describe. If you're playing a equally skilled player, the chances are very high that you guys are going to be taking the same shots from different sides of the map. Both doing similar things at the same exact time, this is more obvious in a game like quake, where there are multiple fights per life. Because you'll see those prediction rockets that lead into that switch rail gun and while you're both doing it at the same time, the person that sees and reacts to that first visible pixel wins. Every millisecond counts, latency, input lag across the board and obviously personal reflex.

If at any time during those moments there is a change at all in consistency, they will most likely miss that shot.

I would rather have a rock stable ping of 80 than a jumpy 30-45 ping.For this reason and just hope I can predict things better and rely less on reaction.

I will say this though, these are not things that you see, so much as feel in the mouse and keyboard movements.

That's what I meant when I said fluidity and consistency are the most important. If you move your mouse and you see the screen update, tear,blur something is wrong. If you notice the speed change, something is wrong. Otherwise it affects you and the way your mouse feels.

A lot of players that have played so long know exactly how far they have to move the mouse to make that shot before they do it. It's similar to muscle memory. Especially when it comes to flick/twitch shots. If there is any change though even the slightest. It will be noticed.

 

[jcg624]

Very easy fix for this. Just tell your son to stop gaming on your system.

Tell him to game on his own system. Problem solved.

 

[Sly]

Very easy fix for this. Just tell your son to stop gaming on your system.

Tell him to game on his own system. Problem solved.

The OP was upset because his son preferred playing on his own PC instead of his DualGPU PC. That was the whole point of the thread.