Well if the OP doesn't notice anything wrong on his system then there is no reason to change its configuration. I don't typically notice microstutter these days and even if I did, I need all the GPU power I can get. A single GPU card is simply not enough for my needs.
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Multi GPU's and gamers
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heatlesssun
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Eaxctly, the only solution is games at lower details and resolutions, not exactly a wonderful solution.
I really hope AMD revisits their "sideport" memory addressing that they abandoned for dual GPU solutions, or that nVidia comes up with their own implementation. This could potentially eliminate all the "cons" with running multi GPUs.
My main gripe is that if I'm going to pay double or triple for the GPU's alone (not including a more expensive board, power supply, power consumption and monitors) I want it to be better at EVERYTHING. As of now, the issue of micro-stuttering has not been solved, it's simply been masked by powerful GPU's operating at very high FPS, but it won't be long before games get more demanding and bring fps down, especially when we're talking about a 3D surround setup.
If/when that happens, I'll be a fan.
My main gripe is that if I'm going to pay double or triple for the GPU's alone (not including a more expensive board, power supply, power consumption and monitors) I want it to be better at EVERYTHING. As of now, the issue of micro-stuttering has not been solved, it's simply been masked by powerful GPU's operating at very high FPS, but it won't be long before games get more demanding and bring fps down, especially when we're talking about a 3D surround setup.
If/when that happens, I'll be a fan.
Kaldskryke
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I'm late to the party, but I tried to scan through the whole thread and it seems there hasn't been much discussion regarding any possible input lag effect of AFR rendering. We can debate the existence and/or relevance of micro-stutter all day, but that might not be the problem OP's son is seeing at all. Afterall, micro-stutter at its very worst creates a perceived framerate around that of single-GPU rendering.
From a 2004 Hexus Article
A lot of time has passed since that article was written. I'm not sure how valid it is anymore. It does indicate that although AFR framerates may be higher than single-GPU, input response times will still be that of single-GPU system or worse. This is of course all dependent on how the game engine's main loop is designed (see the classic DeWiTTERS article).
If the OP's AFR system is as responsive at the best of times but possibly less responsive some of the time, then I can see his viewpoint making a lot of sense.
OH! Another very important point to consider is whether or not these two systems have the same monitor. Some monitors have much more input lag than others, regardless of what the advertised response time is.
From a 2004 Hexus Article
A lot of time has passed since that article was written. I'm not sure how valid it is anymore. It does indicate that although AFR framerates may be higher than single-GPU, input response times will still be that of single-GPU system or worse. This is of course all dependent on how the game engine's main loop is designed (see the classic DeWiTTERS article).
If the OP's AFR system is as responsive at the best of times but possibly less responsive some of the time, then I can see his viewpoint making a lot of sense.
OH! Another very important point to consider is whether or not these two systems have the same monitor. Some monitors have much more input lag than others, regardless of what the advertised response time is.
heatlesssun
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People really are making more of an issue than it is. Yes it exists is some situations though as many have said, it not something that they see much of anymore. As Dan said, you can be stuck at low resolutions and eye candy over something that most aren't even going to see or at the least isn't common or you can enjoy games in all of their glory in high resolution widescreen 3D.
There almost never is the perfect solution with any technology, you have to make some compromises to get things that you want. If a minor issue like microstuttering is what you're concerned about then that's one's choice. Just understand that there are PLENTY of folks that it simply isn't a problem at all. People have been doing multi-GPU for years and it just gotten better and better and better. That's why some people continue to buy it and wouldn't if they saw a problem that's as bad as other make it out to be.
To the OP, I think the summation of this thread is to just let your kid get older. The older he is, the duller his senses will be so eventually he won't complain about microstuttering as much if at all. 
My first foray into a multi-GPU setup is my current HD4850 Crossfire setup in my sig rig. Prior to this, I had heard a lot about how micro stuttering can be a game breaking experience, which gave me a lot of reservations about trying something like this in the first place. But after actually trying it out, I can say that my aging eyes (I'm 27 now) are rarely able to discern any sort of micro stuttering. The few games where it occasionally is noticeable is in Crysis and GTA 4, but even then the moments that are actually noticeable are so infrequent that it has not detracted from the game experience for me.
For what it's worth, playing games like Battlefied Bad Company 2 is waaaaaaayyyy better with two HD4850's than just one.
My first foray into a multi-GPU setup is my current HD4850 Crossfire setup in my sig rig. Prior to this, I had heard a lot about how micro stuttering can be a game breaking experience, which gave me a lot of reservations about trying something like this in the first place. But after actually trying it out, I can say that my aging eyes (I'm 27 now) are rarely able to discern any sort of micro stuttering. The few games where it occasionally is noticeable is in Crysis and GTA 4, but even then the moments that are actually noticeable are so infrequent that it has not detracted from the game experience for me.
For what it's worth, playing games like Battlefied Bad Company 2 is waaaaaaayyyy better with two HD4850's than just one.
I'm well aware of all that heat, but for some people the issue isn't so minor. There are people in this thread that have used multi-gpu and observed and disliked this "minor" and hardly noticeable issue. Also, what happens when more demanding games come out and your $1500-$2000 investment in GPU's alone can no longer maintain the super high fps that is masking the micro stutter/input lag? You'll need to do the same thing as the single GPU guys do, turn settings down. The issue becomes not so minor anymore IMO. Turning settings down on it's own isn't such an issue if it's to get better FPS, but it is an issue to me when you'll be forced to do it, not to get good fps, but rather to get a high enough fps to continue to mask an inherent trait of multi-GPU setups. This to me isn't acceptable considering how much we need to shell out for this technology.
Multi-gpu technology is interesting enough, but not perfected enough that I have no problems relegating myself to living vicariously through folks like yourself who have it. At this point it time, it still has not matured enough for me to invest my own money into.
Multi-gpu technology is interesting enough, but not perfected enough that I have no problems relegating myself to living vicariously through folks like yourself who have it. At this point it time, it still has not matured enough for me to invest my own money into.
I should be getting my 2 460's soon, if UPS was actually fast
. You obviously know that I'm against creating any input lag for any type of competitive gaming.There is one problem with this. Having a weaker set up(1 card vs 2) will hinder my single player experience, which is full eye candy. There are a lot of games that play much slower than a fast paced shooter and the increased input lag is not going to be nearly as noticeable nor as big of a detriment, single player or otherwise. I think if you're hesitant in purchasing an SLI set up because of those drawbacks. You can have the best of both worlds and disable SLI when you go to play those games where it's noticeable and may hinder your experience. But otherwise you'll be able to fully immerse yourself with all the bells and whistles when you prefer that route.
heatlesssun
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There's ALWAYS something that will push the limits and then you get new stuff, that's the nature of PC gaming. Honestly $2k is piss ant money compared to what I've dumped into PCs over the years. But it's my hobby and also my job and it's just something that I budget for. I know that's why a lot of people don't like PC gaming and that's fair, they don't want to spend the money. For people like me its just what we spend our money on, to each his own.
Hell there's plenty right now that pushes my rig since I'm doing 3D, like Metro 2033 and Just Cause 2, in fact in those games I run them at 4800x900 in 3D, so even with top line hardware it can be bought to its knees.
But even in those situations I haven't seen microstuttering, it just isn't a problem for me. If others see it and think its a problem, that's them and in my opinion something else might be at the cause.
Too often I have read about people complaining about something when just about any technology and often I find it to be total BS. Not that microstuttering is but Counterstrike Source? The Source engine is crushed but just about any single GPU on the market and the Source engine has had a history of stuttering WITHOUT multi-GPU. There's stutters that I can observe from time to time in games running single GPU as well.
Let me be clear, when I observe microstutter I see high frame rate numbers and a PERSISTENT hitch which belies the frame rate. That's what I see and that's just not something I've seen in a few years. The last time I remember it clearly was Call Of Duty 4, since then I just haven't.
As stated earlier, it's not just microstutter. It's any increased input lag. WHICH IS UNDENIABLE, it's not as smooth or as responsive. /thread.
heatlesssun
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And once again that's just not the case for all people in all situations. Ask Kyle or Brett or if they experienced in noticeble lag in their 480 SLI Surround review, because they didn't bring it up.
It is always the case, whether you notice it or not is entirely dependent on your perception and how well you are accustomed to your mouse feeling and the game engine. Just because you don't notice it or that it doesn't matter to you if you do notice it. Doesn't mean it's not there. Hell the technical explanation is there too. You increase input lag when you add another video card, whether or not you notice it or that it would be a detriment depends on you and the game engine.
I would take any competitive gamers word over an enthusiast any day on this matter.At least an enthusiast that has no technical proof that there is indeed increased input lag and inconsistency when compared to running 1 card. But wait there is proof of there being both of those things,just read the thread. But more importantly I will take my own experience over anybodies word.
Don't be mad that there are people who can afford the best and simply scoff at the idea of eyefinity/surround/sli/cf and ridiculously large monitors that you have to turn your head to see everything. All of those things effect performance, consistency, and responsiveness.Please try to dispute this so I know for sure that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Intel_Hydralisk
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In every review they always bring up. Most recently, this is from the gtx 460 SLI review:
heatlesssun
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Whose mad? All I've said is that pretty much everyone that's reviewed this stuff and owns it likes it. If you prefer to worry about the pretty much imperceptible or non-exsistant issues that you're talking about especially when talking single player about games over the the ENORMOUS visual quality gains that this technology provides that's your personal choice.
Hell it's not like I still don't have the choice of dropping back down the fastest single GPU on the market anyway if I ever need to on a single screen.
That's the funny part about all of this because it seems like some of you think you can't configure these setups however you need and still have the best performance available assuming you're using the fastest single GPUs. That's why I only believe inputting the fastest single GPUs in multi-GPU configs. In the rare case there is an issue I just drop down to the fastest single card anyway.
Setting Max Frames To Render Ahead( 'flip queue size' for ATI) to 1 or 0 in a multi-GPU( or single-GPU for that matter) setup will minimize the input lag, since if it's set any higher then the CPU will render frames ahead of the GPU and so the mouse/keyboard input will be 'older' than what the GPU is displaying. I believe the default setting is 3. This might end up decreasing performance a bit though, at least if you don't have a fast CPU. Setting it to zero could also cause stability problems in some games, or so it's been said.
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You keep saying this, and it's still not true. Go ahead, say it again... It'll still be wrong. Just because YOU don't perceive it doesn't mean it's non-existent. You seem intelligent enough, not sure why this particular point continues to elude you, nearly 100 posts later.
heatlesssun
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You seem to have a difficult time taking people at their word and everyone else in this post that has the technology, 480 SLI Surround, is saying the same thing, its not just me.
Every professional review, everyone that has this stuff in this thread is saying that its delivering the best gaming experience they've ever had. I simply concur with pretty much everyone that's actually used this stuff is saying.
I didn't say it was perfect, I didn't say that I've never seen microstutter. I am saying that with this setup I have yet to see any signs of it and I have yet to here anyone else say that either. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
But you seem hell bent on telling people who have the stuff in front of them they are having issues they are not reporting at the moment.
It may not be an issue but it's there, and just because you can't perceive it doesn't mean it's not there.
heatlesssun
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If it can't be percieved by the user then really now, why does it matter?
All I said there is not problem I can see, along with EVERYONE else that has it. And if you don't have the stuff, well obviosuly you're not seeing either.
No, you didn't say it was perfect, but you continue to say that certain side-effects that have proven to exist are non-existent.
I never insisted you're having issues, in fact, I've specifically said I don't doubt that you haven't seen any issues. If you're going to put words in my mouth at least take the time and read what I actually said instead of making things up.
You're right, you didn't specifically say that you've never seen micro stutter, what you did say was.
Not to mention, since when did this thread become about 480's in Tri-SLI? It isn't, it's about multi-gpu setups. Not that the issues are gone with the 480's, simply masked temporarily, which we've also went over multiple times.
Bottom line is multi gpu is not without it's drawbacks, that includes 480's. I for one can't bring myself to put that kind of money into a setup that only masks a problem and take a chance that it may very well rear it's ugly head the next time a demanding game gets released. Clearly, I'm not alone in this line of reasoning.
We're simply letting people know of the drawbacks or potential drawbacks. The system is not without it's flaws, and while you haven't come out and said "it's a perfect system" you have very passionately shunned every critique that has come along, effectively saying "it's not perfect, there's just absolutly nothing wrong with it"
I never insisted you're having issues, in fact, I've specifically said I don't doubt that you haven't seen any issues. If you're going to put words in my mouth at least take the time and read what I actually said instead of making things up.
You're right, you didn't specifically say that you've never seen micro stutter, what you did say was.
Not to mention, since when did this thread become about 480's in Tri-SLI? It isn't, it's about multi-gpu setups. Not that the issues are gone with the 480's, simply masked temporarily, which we've also went over multiple times.
Bottom line is multi gpu is not without it's drawbacks, that includes 480's. I for one can't bring myself to put that kind of money into a setup that only masks a problem and take a chance that it may very well rear it's ugly head the next time a demanding game gets released. Clearly, I'm not alone in this line of reasoning.
We're simply letting people know of the drawbacks or potential drawbacks. The system is not without it's flaws, and while you haven't come out and said "it's a perfect system" you have very passionately shunned every critique that has come along, effectively saying "it's not perfect, there's just absolutly nothing wrong with it"
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heatlesssun
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I shun people who haven't used stuff and then tell others who have that they are seeing problems that users of said technology aren't reporting. I think that's just common sense. You'd never recommend this stuff and say it has all kinds of problems, fine. But at least take the word, and not just mine, of those who have used the stuff and are VERY happy with it. You're looking for problems in stuff you don't even own and that just makes no sense.
Look, where are serious, reproducable problems you'll hear about them soon enough.
I take your word that you haven't experienced them, I'm not sure how many times I have to say it for you to absorb that concept. If you separate yourself from your emotional attachment to your hardware and substituted some logic in it's place, you'd understand what I've been saying since my first post in this thread.
You admit micro stuttering exists but that you haven't seen it with the 480's right? ok, is the 480 using a special SLI technology that lesser cards aren't using? No, it isn't. Then what makes the 480 so special, why have you not seen it?
Since we know it's using the same SLI technology as other cards I see only one of two possible explinations.
1) Magic
2) Quite simply, you haven't noticed it
It doesn't have to be a reproducible problem for a problem to exist. We've mentioned (and you're well aware) a lot of this is perception, some people notice while others do not. Stop pretending otherwise
You admit micro stuttering exists but that you haven't seen it with the 480's right? ok, is the 480 using a special SLI technology that lesser cards aren't using? No, it isn't. Then what makes the 480 so special, why have you not seen it?
Since we know it's using the same SLI technology as other cards I see only one of two possible explinations.
1) Magic
2) Quite simply, you haven't noticed it
It doesn't have to be a reproducible problem for a problem to exist. We've mentioned (and you're well aware) a lot of this is perception, some people notice while others do not. Stop pretending otherwise
some people can't notice, some people can.
can we stop discussing about this now? ITS THERE, IT EXIST.
If you can notice it, SOL.
If you can't notice it, GLHF.
How simple that is?
I got rid of my Multi-GPU setup for this primary reason, the input delay is there 100% if you are sensitive enough. People like me who play Competitive FPS game all day can easily tell about it.
I have tried GTX 480 SLi on my rig before I got rid of this damn aircraft carrier, the problem still there, no matter how much people argue, its there.
same old argument...
If you can notice it, SOL.. which is me..
If you can't notice it, GLHF... damn I wish I apply here.
PS: I have tried 8800GTX SLI-> GTX 260 SLI -> 4870 CF -> 4890CF -> 5850CF -> 5870CF -> 5970 -> 5970+5870CFX-> GTX 470 SLI -> GTX 480 SLI
All of them exist... I am force to disable Catalyst AI for CF, and force to turn off manually through nV Panel for SLI to enjoy my competition.
I know I am nuts on buying all those graphic card just for fun, but I like to buy one and see what I like first instead of reading all those reviews beside [H], they all non-sense bullshit. Which is why I prefer [H] reviews, and while fanboys hates it because it shows the reality... LMAO.
Not saying [H] review is perfect, but most of reviews are matching up my testing, except very few of them.
can we stop discussing about this now? ITS THERE, IT EXIST.
If you can notice it, SOL.
If you can't notice it, GLHF.
How simple that is?
I got rid of my Multi-GPU setup for this primary reason, the input delay is there 100% if you are sensitive enough. People like me who play Competitive FPS game all day can easily tell about it.
I have tried GTX 480 SLi on my rig before I got rid of this damn aircraft carrier, the problem still there, no matter how much people argue, its there.
same old argument...
If you can notice it, SOL.. which is me..
If you can't notice it, GLHF... damn I wish I apply here.
PS: I have tried 8800GTX SLI-> GTX 260 SLI -> 4870 CF -> 4890CF -> 5850CF -> 5870CF -> 5970 -> 5970+5870CFX-> GTX 470 SLI -> GTX 480 SLI
All of them exist... I am force to disable Catalyst AI for CF, and force to turn off manually through nV Panel for SLI to enjoy my competition.
I know I am nuts on buying all those graphic card just for fun, but I like to buy one and see what I like first instead of reading all those reviews beside [H], they all non-sense bullshit. Which is why I prefer [H] reviews, and while fanboys hates it because it shows the reality... LMAO.
Not saying [H] review is perfect, but most of reviews are matching up my testing, except very few of them.
bigdogchris
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Could also tell him Crossfire is on when it's really off or the other way around.
Pretty much this.
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or 3) Placebo effect.
I'll believe #3
. Seriously, I'm EXTREMELY sensitive to image quality defects in general, have a self-calibrated nice home theatre setup with a 1080p Epson 8100 projector, and am very critical in general of input lag and/or stutters/other various issues. However, even when I'm purposefully trying to look for it, there's just nothing there to see.I am/was running GTX 460 1GB's in SLI (one of them turned out to be defective and is being replaced ASAP), and while they were running which was a full 24 hour period with me on the computer over 10 hours, I couldn't find the issues. I even enabled/disabled SLI to try testing if things were even a tiny miniscule amount off, and they weren't things I could tell.
I'm very quick to pounce when there's an actual issue... I'm sure some have seen my posts critiquing TN panels vs. IPS, or even PVA vs. IPS, ATI drivers, even nVidia ones at times, littler things like anisotropic filtering shimmering, etc. This one, however, is either A) unnoticeable to me, or B) so miniscule that it is a non-factor even for those who can truly tell, other than believing it is there.
heatlesssun said:
You are obviously a selective reader.
rtd said:
heatlesssun said:
To be frank, they aren't competitive gamers and generally are not as sensitive to things like this. For example they review mice. Did you know according to people at esreality that it takes more than 2 months to be completely comfortable and tournament ready when changing mice. Hell most of them still use 400 or 800 dpi.
I don't think you understand how the real "hardcore" fps gamers are. The mouse and the way it responds is pretty much an extension of them. They know it that well. I personally can tell if you changed my mouse acceleration from .001 to .002. Because the mouse movement of most shots is a learned process not a reactive one.
They know more about how to manipulate the game engine more-so than the developers themselves (you know the guys that make it, who know it better than those that review it) and they are better at it too. It's just way too in-depth to get a hardware performance review and expect them to know the software as well as somebody who spends just as much time playing that game as those reviewers spend reviewing stuff.Sure it will give you a general idea of what to expect and they can make assumptions based off the hardware.But that's as far as it will go.
Not to mention the people that this bother, typically play cs,quake, and cod. Those have been out for how long? A lot of these guys have been playing since the betas of each of those games and as such will be more sensitivity to a change, more-so than anybody else in the world.
Yea there is a decrease in performance when running it at 0/1 but if the system is capable it does help feel more responsive. I know throughout the years I've had to change it from 0 a few times, can't remember any recent titles specifically, because it actually made it even less fluid.
Intel_Hydralisk
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I think the bottom line is that it exists and is not just some myth. It exists on a technical level and has been demonstrated to exist through measurement.
Whether or not it bothers the player is going to depend on the player and for me it depends on the game. It hasn't really gotten in the way such that I found a game unplayable though. And in most games I don't really notice it at all.
Whether or not it bothers the player is going to depend on the player and for me it depends on the game. It hasn't really gotten in the way such that I found a game unplayable though. And in most games I don't really notice it at all.
heatlesssun
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We'll are there any competitive gamers that would like to inform us out there? I mean if they are the experts can we get one or find one to chime in that's actually USED something like a 480 SLI setup? Cause all we have here is a bunch of people who haven't used this stuff saying that there is a problem (and I mean specifically 480 SLI, nothing else at the moment) and people who have used the stuff that say there isn't one that they've seen.
heatlesssun
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I've never said it was a myth, I'm simply saying that we keep talking about an issue that you'd have to test on god knows how many configurtations with apparently only comptitive gamers because they are the only ones that know. Has anyone ever done such a test? So without this type of test the point is simple. You may or may not see it depending on which of the thousands of games you try against a literally infinite array of hardware.
To say so and so saw microstutter in this one game on this rig proves nothing other than so and so saw it in that one game on that rig. Heck, without any solid facts isn't is possible that a competitive gamer might see it in one game and not another on the same rig?
My only point is that some are acting as though this is issue is endemic to all multi-GPU platforms and without confirmation of every game on every config by a competitive gamer how to you know?
The issue is being WAY overblown and simplified in this thread.
Intel_Hydralisk
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shansoft just did didn't he? He got rid of his 2nd 480.
And I think you're taking things way too personally with the whole "I've got 480's and I have to defend it at all cost".
That's essentially what this thread has been about since post #25
Nobody in this thread is acting as you describe. You're seeing what you want to see. You are also selective reading and ignore the fact that it's not just microstutter that is noticed,hell it might not even be microstutter. It's the increased input lag. You can not tell me mathematically that it's possible to make 2 split images merge with such fluidity that it's impossible to discern the difference between 2 reels and 1,without special effects of course and in real-time. Especially when said image is the same image they have seen over and over and over and over and over for thousands of hours.
You don't have to be competitive or make money from gaming to notice, it's just they generally know the game well enough to notice any change. Unlike the casual gamers such as WoW players that have played for years and don't know what a rotation is or anything about any other classes. Such as you who has never used a mousefix or know what it's about or why it's there. I deem all these eyefinity/surround gamers as casual gamers.This isn't to talk about your ability in a game, but you simply are content with some plot, some special effects, and inconsistent frame rate. What makes you think that anybody like this would have any idea what input lag FEELS like. Not what some program tells them it is. Not what some benchmark shows. But how many reviewers can actual review a product and say they notice the input lag + -.
But the heavens shall open up tonight and shine light on to your 480 gtxs as the pinnacle of perfection.
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heatlesssun
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It couldn't give a rat's ass I just like the debate.
But really everytime this converstation is raised NOTHING seems to ever be concluded. Some people some people don't. Well gee, how the hell is anything like that ever going to fixed?
And Source engine games, hell I've seen PLENTY of suttering in those games over the years even on one GPU, the engine is well know for that kind of issue sans multi-GPU. And even if there's a problem with that one game or engine, guess what, there's a lot of games and engines to go.
And it seems that some are just hell bent on saying the multi-GPU sucks for a VERY essocteric issue that some people do and some people don't in some games maybe on Tuseday unless Christmas is tomorrow. It's just isn't easy to demonstrate or repeat in tons of cases.
heatlesssun
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Really, I thought Ramon pretty much think multi-GPU is broken:
So if multi-GPU isn't better at EVERYTHING then its no good? What about games he wouldn't see it in. I can guarantee that he can see it in every single game, I simply don't think that's humanly possible.
It's not, it would have to be a fast paced game,or at least a game with a need for twitchy movement.It would also need fluid/responsive movement and solid net code. There are only a handful of games that fit this description and for that reason there are only a handful of competitive games as far as PC goes and not getting into RTS games.
But it doesn't make it less noticeable in games that do fit that description. That is exactly why I feel I am missing out by not getting SLI. Infact, I'm going to try it over the obvious 470/480 choice. I figure those games that I mention don't require that much to run smoothly and a single 460 will be adequate. Then I'll be able to use sli in the games that it doesn't bother me or is non-existent. Some games are so slow that I don't think input lag of even 50MS would be noticeable.Well it would have to not have a consequence for the input lag.
It couldn't give a rat's ass I just like the debate.
But really everytime this converstation is raised NOTHING seems to ever be concluded. Some people some people don't. Well gee, how the hell is anything like that ever going to fixed?
And Source engine games, hell I've seen PLENTY of suttering in those games over the years even on one GPU, the engine is well know for that kind of issue sans multi-GPU. And even if there's a problem with that one game or engine, guess what, there's a lot of games and engines to go.
And it seems that some are just hell bent on saying the multi-GPU sucks for a VERY essocteric issue that some people do and some people don't in some games maybe on Tuseday unless Christmas is tomorrow. It's just isn't easy to demonstrate or repeat in tons of cases.
Uh, Source Engine NEVER, EVER stutter for me on Single GPU.. NEVER...
There are plenty of games that I feel a huge delay with..
EX: Call of Duty 4, Crysis(seriously noticeable), UT3, BC2 (the mouse become way too smooth in Multi-GPU)... etc.
Those game gave me the most impression that have delays on, there are others, but I cannot remember.
The delay is fine in single player gaming (AI don't react that fast as me
), but in tournament/competition is horrible....wow... just wow... Over 100 posts later and you still don't get it. You're too dense for words and quite frankly, it's not worth repeating what you've been ignoring the entire time you've participated in this thread.