ManofGod
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Clearly, you are going to have to show me where to get my shillcheck. That is because, so far, I have received nothing.
Ah, nevermind, guess if I do not have hate, I am a shill, LOL!
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Microsoft finally reveals what data Windows 10 collects from your PC
- Thread starter Zarathustra[H]
- Start date
Clearly, you are going to have to show me where to get my shillcheck. That is because, so far, I have received nothing.
Ah, nevermind, guess if I do not have hate, I am a shill, LOL!
Darunion
Supreme [H]ardness
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internet: A place where people can be angry about things that change, upgrade, downgrade, stay the same, become free, appear, disappear...I guess any action for the most part really.
For me the best was finding people going off about things in windows 7 and then finding out they were using a stolen copy of it anyways lol.
But really it does boil down to, people like to fight about things, it is our nature and one of the hardest to go against. I am okay with the diag data they collect, i didn't have to buy win10, had they made me pay for it and then add it in later I would be upset but I was aware of it beforehand and made my decision. Hope they get usefull stuff from my pr0n links and warcraft raid videos lol.
Except the telemetry data being collected in W10 goes far beyond mere diagnostic data, even at the Basic level. And "catching exploits" does not absolve all the traffic seen by Glasswire or Wireshark being sent to myriad of creepy Microsoft domains with every keystroke in the searchbox.
My computer (emphasis on "my") should not be broadcasting anything to anyone that I have not specifically approved. I understand all the automation if Windows was indeed free, but it wasn't. I paid for an OS license, not a "service" like Netflix. I also understand that Microsoft has the right to protect its software by locking down key components of it and emphasizing certain use cases; but ultimately, users should have control over what their own hardware is doing without Microsoft changing their settings back to default, or using my computer for their testing purposes.
Given their past malware-like actions with Windows 10, user trust is lost. The time to be up front about this would have been when they were tricking you into installing W10. But they knew if people knew, the adoption rate even if free would have been very low. Rightly so.
Not necessarily. If you use an Android based smartphone or an iPhone, Google and Apple respectively are collecting data of everything you do on those devices. So unless you are using a Blackberry or (like me) a "low-tech" flip phone, you're giving everything away to those companies.
jtm55
Gawd
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Hi All
Uh oh, here we go again.
Uh oh, here we go again.
InorganicMatter
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You call "bullshit" on them collecting a terrifying amount of data... but then immediately follow with an admission that they are collecting a terrifying amount of data, but it's okay because they're using it for good intentions.
Those are two separate lines of discussion that are not related to each other.
Except Android and iPhone aren't required to use my PC, and the fact Android and iPhone collect user does not create in me a sense of obligation to provide Microsoft a blank check to user data on my PC.
Microsoft Windows is not required for you to use your PC. You choose to accept the Windows 10 license to use Microsoft's software on your computer according to their terms. You could choose some other operating system, or if you're really talented, write your own OS!
Most people do far more personal stuff on their Android and iOS devices than people who use PC's. And yet you see almost no one complaining about the data collection done on those devices, especially from Android which is developed by a company whose entire business model is based on reselling the data they collect from you! If the problem is with "Privacy Invasion" then it very duplicitous to complain about Microsoft collecting data, simply because it is on your desktop computer, and not complain about Alphabet and Apple collecting data on your hand-held computers.
This is pretty bad,
the amount of info collected allows microsoft and who ever they choose to share this data with to build a virtual and in extreme cases, a exact duplicate of your machine and recreate a typical user session.
Even more alarming they have a boot count and other time sensitive data points, allowing for recreation of a session for any giving period.
With the unique hardware id and application data points they collect, they can recreate what a user did on a specific day at a specific time on a specific type of machine.
They can recreate what applications they launched, what files they accessed, what data was added or removed from the system, and also what devices were added and removed.(that usb stick you moved files to .... theres a log for that)
While the data is generic, seemingly no urls or document contents nor the rumored key logger, the amount of information is unnecessarily detailed and quite invasive.
Application names down to unique identifiers, file names, running processes, users, drivers and configs. All being collected and logged possibly archived for how long ?
Being able to re-create a end users daily computer activities is an invasion of privacy. Very few users would have entered into such and agreement if this was spelled out and easily understood.
Even more alarming is the telemetry regarding media center. while 10 does not have media center. it seems their is event collection for media center regarding what files are accessed and cataloged. most likley meaning the telemetry patches for win8 and win7 are collecting that data.
And just tossing the privacy concerns out the door.
this amount of data logging is just plain ridiculous and is taking up system resources combine it with other apps wanting to collect more data and we get to the point were loosing real numbers in computer performance for telemetry purposes.
there is over 3000 data points collected
if those points average out to 1kb per data point thats 3 megs a day and lil over 1 gig a year.
AND THATS AFTER THEY CUT IT DOWN TO HALF !!
and just a basic calculation concerning bandwidth, figuring that 1TB of bandwidth costs the user 70 a month
your giving microsoft 1.25 a month in free data services or 15 bucks a year.
Actually Guarana [BAWLS] pointed out my terrible maths its more like (minuscule) Fine screw the maths its still to much !! damnt (goes sulks in a corner)
whats even better is this amount of data collection and services that is given to microsoft can change at any time, they can collect more data and more services and as long as your using win10 there is jack all you can do about it.
SO tell me again, how windows 10 is a benefit to me ?
the amount of info collected allows microsoft and who ever they choose to share this data with to build a virtual and in extreme cases, a exact duplicate of your machine and recreate a typical user session.
Even more alarming they have a boot count and other time sensitive data points, allowing for recreation of a session for any giving period.
With the unique hardware id and application data points they collect, they can recreate what a user did on a specific day at a specific time on a specific type of machine.
They can recreate what applications they launched, what files they accessed, what data was added or removed from the system, and also what devices were added and removed.(that usb stick you moved files to .... theres a log for that)
While the data is generic, seemingly no urls or document contents nor the rumored key logger, the amount of information is unnecessarily detailed and quite invasive.
Application names down to unique identifiers, file names, running processes, users, drivers and configs. All being collected and logged possibly archived for how long ?
Being able to re-create a end users daily computer activities is an invasion of privacy. Very few users would have entered into such and agreement if this was spelled out and easily understood.
Even more alarming is the telemetry regarding media center. while 10 does not have media center. it seems their is event collection for media center regarding what files are accessed and cataloged. most likley meaning the telemetry patches for win8 and win7 are collecting that data.
And just tossing the privacy concerns out the door.
this amount of data logging is just plain ridiculous and is taking up system resources combine it with other apps wanting to collect more data and we get to the point were loosing real numbers in computer performance for telemetry purposes.
there is over 3000 data points collected
if those points average out to 1kb per data point thats 3 megs a day and lil over 1 gig a year.
AND THATS AFTER THEY CUT IT DOWN TO HALF !!
and just a basic calculation concerning bandwidth, figuring that 1TB of bandwidth costs the user 70 a month
your giving microsoft 1.25 a month in free data services or 15 bucks a year.
Actually Guarana [BAWLS] pointed out my terrible maths its more like (minuscule) Fine screw the maths its still to much !! damnt (goes sulks in a corner)
whats even better is this amount of data collection and services that is given to microsoft can change at any time, they can collect more data and more services and as long as your using win10 there is jack all you can do about it.
SO tell me again, how windows 10 is a benefit to me ?
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Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
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Except Android isn't what's collecting the data. It's the Google Apps. Can't compare Apples to Oranges here. You want Apples to Apple then go build AOSP for youself for a Nexus or Pixel device and use it Google free. Android won't be doing jack shit but Windows 10 sits there and data mines. Hell you can technically use an Android device without ever signing into a Google account. Leaves Google without much data since they can't really do anything with it then.
There's lot of other little things here too. I'm not against Diagnostic Data provided I have control over if it sends or not and I can see what data is being sent. Hey that sounds a lot like how Windows used to do it....
Bottom line is it is MY device. It's MY decision. I use Android. It's my decision to let Google mine my data. I get great FREE services from them. I'm OK with that trade off. Google also gives me a ridiculous amount of control of MY DATA that can easily be deleted and/or modified. I can see ALL of my data.
With Windows 10 I get zero control of the data and I had to pony up money for it in some fashion. The amount of data taken with "basic mode" is scary as hell. Who knows what they take with the "recommended" mode and again..zero control and you get NOTHING from it unless you tie into a Microsoft account which I don't want.
My parents were visiting this past weekend and my Dad is furious at how he has an MS account now especially when changes are made on their desktop change on his laptop because it's syncing. Changes he didn't want on the laptop mind you because typically Mom makes the change for whatever reason. He didn't want one, but MS and their shady fucking setup program once again socially engineered a relative none techie into creating an account.
Windows 10 is garbage. yes, I know what the shills say about games and 1080ti's and other bullshit but it's their decision to be complacent and let MS data mine them without an on/off switch.
I don't care if people want to let <insert company name> data mine them. That's up to the person. However, to be complacent and let that company walk all over you is pure stupidity.
Well yeah, no shit Sherlock! How else do you expect them to recreate a problem or a crash incident if they don't have data on it?!?!
My God people, have you ever written a computer program? Have you ever sat there looking at your code for hours trying to solve an issue that other people are having but you yourself can't replicate? That's right! You need data to reproduce an issue, you need diagnostic data, you need information to be able to solve the issue and fix the bug!
You have no idea how hard it can be to solve a damn bug when you have nothing to go on, no data, no logs, no nothing! Meanwhile you have millions of people screaming at you from ever damn angle possible to fix your shit!
That is the kind of situation that Microsoft is in right now! You want them to fix their shit, you want them to solve issues, you want them to make their software more secure but you don't want to give them the data to even make that even remotely possible! You can't have your cake and eat it too people!
I know what's going on because I have written code and I have sat there looking at my code wondering just what the hell went wrong. Hours later I still have no idea. But I have users telling me my program is broken and when I ask for more details like application logs they tell me to screw off because that's "telemetry".
So excuse me for knowing what the hell Microsoft is going through. I can sympathize with them because I'm in the same boat.
My God people, have you ever written a computer program? Have you ever sat there looking at your code for hours trying to solve an issue that other people are having but you yourself can't replicate? That's right! You need data to reproduce an issue, you need diagnostic data, you need information to be able to solve the issue and fix the bug!
You have no idea how hard it can be to solve a damn bug when you have nothing to go on, no data, no logs, no nothing! Meanwhile you have millions of people screaming at you from ever damn angle possible to fix your shit!
That is the kind of situation that Microsoft is in right now! You want them to fix their shit, you want them to solve issues, you want them to make their software more secure but you don't want to give them the data to even make that even remotely possible! You can't have your cake and eat it too people!
I know what's going on because I have written code and I have sat there looking at my code wondering just what the hell went wrong. Hours later I still have no idea. But I have users telling me my program is broken and when I ask for more details like application logs they tell me to screw off because that's "telemetry".
So excuse me for knowing what the hell Microsoft is going through. I can sympathize with them because I'm in the same boat.
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I guaran-fucking-tee you that the spying defenders insisting "What's the big deal Microsoft just wants to fix bugs" will be the first ones to flip the OFF switch the moment Microsoft provides it. The MS guy you speak of has previously admitted his W10 telemetry is at the lowest setting, not Full Blast default like a good worker drone. The hypocrisy is comical.
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theplaidfad
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Oh noes, my data! *gasp*
(I have nothing to hide, and thanks again for the targeted advertising to help me buy the shit I need. Oh yeah and thanks for fixing those crashes and bugs)
(I have nothing to hide, and thanks again for the targeted advertising to help me buy the shit I need. Oh yeah and thanks for fixing those crashes and bugs)
grtitan
Telemetry is Spying on ME!
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LOL, really love that the shills outed themselves, even though their names weren't mentioned in my post.
Like they said in that famous show "It's gold, Jerry, gold!!"
Shotglass01
[H]ard|Gawd
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Fine. But on the hardware I paid for, provide me with an off switch. Provide me with a means to say 'no.' That's even more important if I don't use half of the services they claim telemetry is needed for.
Cmustang87
Supreme [H]ardness
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I wonder how many people here complaining about data harvesting are posting from Google Chrome or any smart phone on the market.
The same people complaining about Windows telemetry are probably the same people with an Android in their pockets.
Oh but Google is OK, Google is fine, Google gets a free pass. But Microsoft? Oh man, they're evil, they're Satan, they're the antichrist.
Give me a break.
ManofGod
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I guaran-fucking-tee you that you do not have any idea what you are talking about. Hey, that is cool, never stopped you before, will not stop you now. You just keep going on with that feeling of security that is really not real at all. (Unless, of course, you never use the internet.) Hey but, go ahead, accuse me of being a hypocrite or justifying when I have done nothing of the sort. Once again, if I do not hate out of the box, I am a schill.
DAMN MICROSOFT, WHERE IS MY CHECK!?!?!? LOL 
Master_shake_
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i should say so
look at this
a exact? it's an exact.
but seriously this is pretty bad.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
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Not outed, we just are quite familiar with who you are talking about, no bullshit trying to hide behind fake crap.
ManofGod
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Pretty much all of them, I would guess. However, I am sure they realize that if you are on the internet, no matter the device or access, Google is data mining you, period! The only way to do that is set your computer, network and browser up so that things no longer worked the way they should. Maybe check with Edward Snowden if they do not agree with me.
I used to think this same way for awhile, but its been close to a decade now with ever more powerful, more detailed data collection, and more robust dev tools the code quality has not improved.
today programs are just as bug prone, more exploitable, less featured, and even more resource hungry.
The Data Being Collected Is Not Being Used To Aid Developers.
why? because that takes money you have to have someone parse the logs recreate the issue detail the events and ultimately write the patch/code, and that costs to much time and money. companies today dont want to invest in it.
so instead we have companies ala Microsoft being one of them, using this data as a cash cow.
they are not fixing bugs or improving code quality because if they were we would not have the bloated childrens toy of an os that is Win10.
we would have a lean extremely fast and secure os that builds upon its foundation of familiarity while empowering the end user further when it comes to getting work done.
So no. all this data collection being done is not creating better programs . the programs that i use, that dont collect data have matured and become better programs over the years. where as microsofts all have become worse. less features than previous generation, no performance improvements, and still buggy .
case in point
Internet explorer vs edge browser how much info has ms had to make a better browser ?? combined with security essentials data ?? did microsoft deliver a better browser ? NO.
security essentials collecting tons of data for microsoft on malware and viruses yet ransomware is a major problem still to this day !! how ?? because microsoft wont devise a better file system nor put stops in place to prevent this kinda bs. again they have had the data for well over 5 years++ to do something about it.
security updates. how much data does microsoft need to not to release borked system updates ? apparently they need more.
Actually no they dont need more data . they have all the tools they need to create a superior product. they just wont and dont, because they dont want to invest the money or time to create it. Microsoft just wants the free money provided by those willing to run microsoft data centers in their homes for microsoft to profit of off.
Like i said i really wish data collection was for the benefit of writing better code. Its not, its a lie told to us to make us think they are trying to do better . when all they are really doing is profiting off our resources freely and giving nothing back in return.
davethehedgehog
Limp Gawd
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Or... you know... they could just give us an easy off switch to disable the upload of data. Then the people that care could turn it off, and the probable 95% of other users that don't, wouldn't. If the data's so anonimised, what difference does it make to them.
And no... I don't use Chrome. But since the fanboi's are so fixated on "well stop moaning cos you're on your smart phones, huh huh huh I'm so smart", it wouldn't hurt MS to take the high road really, now would it? Since they make billions from business other than shipping people's private data.
Seriously, a simple off switch to keep the people that care happy. Why not? It'd be a PR coup
And no... I don't use Chrome. But since the fanboi's are so fixated on "well stop moaning cos you're on your smart phones, huh huh huh I'm so smart", it wouldn't hurt MS to take the high road really, now would it? Since they make billions from business other than shipping people's private data.
Seriously, a simple off switch to keep the people that care happy. Why not? It'd be a PR coup
Shotglass01
[H]ard|Gawd
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You sir win the internet.
Interested in some specific anecdotes around the "less featured" remark.
They did do something about it. TPM. Secure Boot. Things you no doubt refuse to run or enable on your computing platform. You probably disable UAC on your machine too.
Unless your firmware and boot process is secured, your computer can be compromised.
I'm sure if they created a better filesystem for you, it would break compatibility with "all the programs that you use". Can't have your cake and eat it too.
They did do something about it. TPM. Secure Boot. Things you no doubt refuse to run or enable on your computing platform. You probably disable UAC on your machine too.
Unless your firmware and boot process is secured, your computer can be compromised.
I'm sure if they created a better filesystem for you, it would break compatibility with "all the programs that you use". Can't have your cake and eat it too.
The data collection (telemetry) is driven by pure unadulterated GREED and to further empower an already Orwellian NSA/CIA/FBI to profile / track the civilian population (overwhelmingly law abiding). Until this crap is COMPLETELY removed from Windows, anything said to the contrary is just lip service (think Wormtongue from LOTR) and P/R "damage control".
As for the argument Google and Apple already do this, so why no Microsoft? Real simple.... Google and Apple are niche devices and services I can elect to use and have many competitors (ie alternate options). Microsoft has a virtual monopoly in desktop O.S. and goes FAR beyond what data Google and Apple collect. Microsoft by default, grants their business Super User access to my PC and monitors EVERY keystroke, website, application I use, and can download ANY file on my PC WITHOUT my explicit consent / knowledge sharing it with federal alphabet agencies & selling it to ANYONE they see fit! Windows which has for decades offered it's user base complete privacy, now offers ZERO. I cannot purchase a more expensive license at any price that gives me the level of privacy that has been a standard from Windows 8.1 all the way back to 1.0.
As for the argument Google and Apple already do this, so why no Microsoft? Real simple.... Google and Apple are niche devices and services I can elect to use and have many competitors (ie alternate options). Microsoft has a virtual monopoly in desktop O.S. and goes FAR beyond what data Google and Apple collect. Microsoft by default, grants their business Super User access to my PC and monitors EVERY keystroke, website, application I use, and can download ANY file on my PC WITHOUT my explicit consent / knowledge sharing it with federal alphabet agencies & selling it to ANYONE they see fit! Windows which has for decades offered it's user base complete privacy, now offers ZERO. I cannot purchase a more expensive license at any price that gives me the level of privacy that has been a standard from Windows 8.1 all the way back to 1.0.
GoldenTiger
Fully [H]
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No, you can't. You're being tracked through the ad cookies and +1 buttons from most any site that uses any google tie-in.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
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So do you have a list of all the data that Apple and Google collect? And Apple and Google niche? About the only two tech companies more valuable than Microsoft so hardly niche.
Every company that sells you an OS is spying on you. No it isn't just MS... MS windows is simply the OS most folks have.
The only real solution is to realize you don't HAVE to use Windows to use your PC.
I'll leave all the Linux distro links out this time you all know where to get them. lol
Keep a Win 7 drive around for the handful of PC games worth playing that don't run under Linux.... and use Linux for everything else. There is a reason why the number of people around here going on about Linux is always growing.
The only real solution is to realize you don't HAVE to use Windows to use your PC.
I'll leave all the Linux distro links out this time you all know where to get them. lol
Keep a Win 7 drive around for the handful of PC games worth playing that don't run under Linux.... and use Linux for everything else. There is a reason why the number of people around here going on about Linux is always growing.
What? Just because it doesn't fit your needs of an OS it's suddenly a "children's toy"? What about tablets? People want tablets, more and more people are choosing to use tablets as versus desktop PCs and that shows in how many Android and iOS-based tablets were selling a few years ago. Microsoft had to evolve to meet the needs of tablet users and that was Windows 10. Windows 7 isn't equipped to handle tablets, it's touch-screen support was laughable at best.
Yes, because people are expecting more of their programs, they want them to do more for them and that means more code and more code means more bugs. It's the nature of it.
Again, more code equals more bugs.
Speak for yourself man. Windows 10 runs far better than Windows 7 ever did on my system. It boots faster, loads programs faster, and overall it's a better OS than Windows 7 ever was.
Yes, that is an issue and I understand that but let's sit here and think about how complicated patching software that needs to run on just about anything including everything from a high-end gaming rig to someone's piece of shit cheap ass Dell that was made with the cheapest shit hardware you can possibly imagine. People expect Windows to run on it and not crash. The fact that Windows is as reliable as it is today while being forced to run on everything including someone's nicotine-tar coated desktop is a damned miracle.
And not only that but let's throw in the fact that every desktop computer is different. Your desktop may have an Intel Core i7 in it and an nVidia graphics card, mine is a Core i5 with an AMD graphics card in it. I have different software installed than you do. What does this all mean? It means that there is an infinite number of software and hardware combinations that we are basically forcing a general purpose operating system to cope with and not barf all over itself in the process. The fact that Windows doesn't BSOD on us if we even breathe on it or look at it cross-eyed is a damned miracle considering just how many different ways all of these various combinations of hardware and software could possibly go wrong.
They have been writing better code, the fact that Windows 7 and Windows 10 doesn't crash if a bird flies over your house like how Windows 9x did is proof of that. Some of you may be too young to remember the dark days of Windows 9x computing in which you hoped and prayed your system booted up and not only that but didn't crash while writing something in WordPerfect.
M76
[H]F Junkie
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You'll have it when it will be google that provides the OS for your home computer.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
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Yep but hey, if you point that out, you are a M$ Shill and M$ Fanboy! Oh well, I am not going to argue because those who I argue with do not listen and just accuse, accuse, accuse. I guess after being on this earth for 50 years, I have decided some things are not worth getting stressed over about, especially with no evidence of the accusations against MS and being able to enjoy computers for what they are, devices to derive enjoyment out of.
As someone who has a 8 year old Linux server in a corner that hasn't been powered down in over a year or so now and I think may have went as long as a year and a half at one point.... your making me think about installing Windows 10 on it.
Windows is plenty of things. Stable. Not sure that is its best selling point.
M76
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You don't use a paying customer's device as a test platform. You use your own device and your own QA staff to do away with bugs and exploits. But we know what happened to QA at Microsoft it got downsized.
I wonder how would you act if GM would show up at your house and ask for your car keys, because they want to test a new cup holder in your car. This is what MS is doing with telemetry. Using your computer and your data for testing. Besides selling your data to their "partners"
Again, as I stated before in a prior post there are an infinite number of hardware and software combinations that Microsoft can't possibly test for. They are as numerous as the number of stars in the sky. One system running a Core i5, one running an i7, one running AMD, one running nVidia, one running ATi/AMD, one running Skylake, one running Kaby Lake, one running Kaspersky, one running Avast, one running Avira, etc. I could go on and on but we'd be here all night going into all various different possibilities.
M76
[H]F Junkie
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Smartphone doesn't have any personal files, no bank account info, no personal pictures, no nothing. Besides it's not even conneted to the internet unless I specifically want to look up something.
Imagine my smartphone as the hallway, my PC as my bedroom. I'm fine with allowing people into my hallway. But I'll very carefully look at who I let into my bedroom.