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Intel 10nm/7nm CPU/GPU Rumor Thread : Cannonlake, Icelake, Tigerlake, Sapphire Rapids, etc.
Up until 7nm they had the Global Foundries albatross around their necks.
Now they are with TSMC which is the leading process Fab on the planet.
Not only that but now they have Fab freedom. If Samsung had a better process,they could switch.
Things are definitely much improved on the process side for AMD, and that is the new normal.
IdiotInCharge
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TSMC are the ones that got lucky. Global Foundries has muddled along from barely adequate to functionally useless.
TSMC 7nm isn't the same as Samsung 7nm -- every fab is different. Swapping fabs needs to be done early in the design cycle, or will incur release slippages like what Intel is currently experiencing.
If AMD is serious about production, they'll be using both simultaneously. And they'll likely need to, as TSMC is prone to running into difficulties.
drescherjm
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They may have to do so if their APUs are finally competitive with Intels higher end mobile parts.
I think it's a little more complex than that. If you're suggesting that amd's technology will translate to them being in better financial shape than Intel, the financial professionals disagree with you:
https://247wallst.com/technology-3/...rise-more-than-20-and-outperform-amd-in-2020/
N4CR
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Intel IPC gains are also a decent part the security speed cheat patches.
TSMC ain't fucked up in a while either, keep in mind two other market leaders rely on them. With the cost of new nodes they can't. Thats like saying amd sucks because drivers from 2010 had some issues.. Things are a little different now.
Also Intel is on the edge of their process capabilities. 10nm doesn't clock nor yield (look at those core counts), of course it doesn't matter now suddenly - we don't need more than dual cores apparently (cybertruck can't tow 500 miles @ 14klbs anyone?) and 14nm has a prolapsed anus. Their only way out is 7nm, if it works in two years time.
TSMC ain't fucked up in a while either, keep in mind two other market leaders rely on them. With the cost of new nodes they can't. Thats like saying amd sucks because drivers from 2010 had some issues.. Things are a little different now.
Also Intel is on the edge of their process capabilities. 10nm doesn't clock nor yield (look at those core counts), of course it doesn't matter now suddenly - we don't need more than dual cores apparently (cybertruck can't tow 500 miles @ 14klbs anyone?) and 14nm has a prolapsed anus. Their only way out is 7nm, if it works in two years time.
Gideon
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Yet they had no issue with TSMC when Nvidia is using them, then it's cutting edge.
Sorry my friend but I will have to wager Cybertruck runs on ARM
Winning a lotto is luck. A company becoming the lead Fab for Apple, NVidia, AMD, Qualcomm, and most of the rest of the world outside of Intel, isn't luck. It's executing on production and pouring more money into R&D and Building Fabs.
It seems like New Fab announcements keep coming from TSMC, while Intel stands pat, and is unable to meet it's corporate customer needs.
drescherjm
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Didn't Global Foundries say 7nm was too difficult and costly for them.
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LoL “could”
If I had listened to the “professionals” I’d be a lot poorer. Keep your head in the game. Buybacks is how intel increased their share price while losing market share. You’re right it is more complex.
IdiotInCharge
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Choosing the right research avenue is luck. Both companies understood the potential of the avenues each took, and neither knew whether they'd be fruitful when they started.
Not really. They're showing +10% over Zen 2 as well.
And they can mess up at any time.
Who are 'they'?
At least Nvidia knows how to leverage TSMCs capabilities for large, high-performing, efficient GPUs, which dwarf AMDs CCDs.
Nope, AMDs software and firmware are still a sore spot. Zen and Zen+ were a procession of ratfuckery, while both Polaris and Navi had shittastic releases. AMD really hasn't shown that they won't continue their life-long trend.
They do get it mostly right, you know, eventually.
IMO in this kind of thing, companies make their own luck.
Hire more talented people that recognize dead ends sooner, or spend more money to explore multiple paths further, or have a nimble working culture that communicates issues early to recover faster, etc...
We really don't know how or why Intel got off track. But since Samsung also transitioned to 7nm uneventfully, this looks more like Intel's screwup than TSMC's "Luck".
IMO, Intel simply was out front on process for too long, and grew too complacent and entrenched. They no longer had systems in place to recognize failure early, so when they failed, they failed hard, and floundered excessively trying to recover, and still are.
I suppose you could stretch and call TSMC lucky that Intel shit the bed. But TSMC isn't really an Intel competitor. It's a Fab for third party parts, something Intel doesn't really do (or does so badly that they are irrelevant).
TSMC is the #1 third party fab, with a strong or a weak Intel, since Intel isn't in that market.
Might be as simple as Intel was on top so long they got that invincible feeling and thought they would overcome any challenge, all bumps in experimental process would be worked out with ease - but reality proved otherwise.
IdiotInCharge
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This definitely happened. They picked the 'unlucky' research avenue, and then doubled down.
New leaks for Rocket Lake and it is looking very good.
https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-rocket-lake-s-features-pci-express-4-0-xe-graphics
https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-rocket-lake-s-features-pci-express-4-0-xe-graphics
IdiotInCharge
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Do you have to throw a slight in there?
It's been clear why Intel has not yet implemented PCIe 4.0, why AMD has, and just how much difference it makes (none whatsoever).
Well there is a thread here, but it doesn't seem very clear as to why:
https://hardforum.com/threads/intel-drops-pcie-4-0-support-for-comet-lake.1992121/
It also wasn't very clear to Z490 board manufactures as many were allegedly adding pcie 4 circuitry.
IdiotInCharge
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They tried to back-port PCIe 4.0, and failed.
rhkcommander959
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14nm++++++++++++++++ (sorry, I couldn't help it.)
I feel like Intel is netbursting it up again. I'm glad AMD is rallying, competition is good.
I feel like Intel is netbursting it up again. I'm glad AMD is rallying, competition is good.
IdiotInCharge
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It does seem like that from a product-release perspective.
The challenge is that while their production technology advancement has stumbled pretty significantly, the other facets of CPU production have not.
Meaning that once their production capability catches back up, the performance of their CPUs is likely to jump significantly.
In the interim, AMD was able to release CPUs that are now mostly competitive with Intel's now five year-old technology while leveraging third-party manufacturing capabilities. Good for AMD and the overall market, of course, since Intel both stagnated in released technology and production capacity, however, it remains important to remember that the circumstances that both companies find themselves are historical exceptions.
We should hope, then, that both AMD continues to design more competitive products, that TSMC (etc.) continue to refine their manufacturing capabilities to produce those products for AMD, and that Intel gets their production game back on track.
Because otherwise, AMD will become the new Intel -- in performance and in price, like they did last time with Netburst.
rhkcommander959
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I fully agree. We all win if there is a good competition between the two.
Socket 939 was great, I still have an old system in storage - Opteron 165 was king for a few years for budget overclockers, until Core 2 dropped really. Phenom 1 was terrible.
My personal rant: I wish Intel would stick with a compatible chipset/socket for a while. I miss the LGA775 days when almost any combination of chipset and CPU could be used (other than the crazy extreme editions with high TDP with budget boards) , the so called limitations for Z170/270/370/390 shouldn't be repeated in my opinion, but looks like it will be their theme for a while as Comet Lake-S has a new socket entirely. Modders already figured out how to circumvent the forced limitations for the most part for LGA 1151. The claims I heard back when z270 dropped was that motherboards might not have enough power or the VRMs couldnt handle newer CPUs, CPU TDP has stayed within the same range now for what, a decade and a half or more? I know that's not a direct correlation but I've also seen overclocked 9900K's on z170 motherboards! End rant
Perhaps there is a legitimate reason why they needed another socket, but from the base specs they look like they *should* have been backwards compatible.
I hope Intel does catch up on production capability, is their foray into graphics part of the issue? Or are they having fab issues?
IdiotInCharge
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More than one, though not all are satisfactory for enthusiasts.
A big one is Intel's command over the implementing of their specifications, which can lead to board producers falling short with respect to flexibility; another is demand for 'something new' from OEMs (think Dell HP Lenovo), but the biggest one lately has been Intel's adjustment to their own shortcomings with respect to fabrication. Essentially, everything after the 6000-series still on 14nm has been done of the fly. New chipset features, interconnects, and power requirements were all set for CPUs that still haven't arrived, and all of that has had to be adjusted as well.
Additionally, everything has been adjusting for years up until the last few while Intel has been lying to themselves about what they can actually build. On the outside, this looks pretty chaotic of course.
This is a good point, but consider that a Z170 motherboard could have been spec'd to run four cores well -- and nothing more. The best Z170 boards of course should be able to support a 9900K, but the bargain-basement ones?
Imagine the headache that X370 users have gone through trying to upgrade CPUs, twenty-fold or more. Remember that Intel is the 'premium' brand, and that AMD up till Zen 2 was still behind, and even now still carries the 'budget' brand cache. Budget buyers are more likely to put up with issues, and it was enthusiasts that adopted Ryzen early, people who in general like to tinker.
Intel's reach is much further than that. They have to enforce stricter standards just as a matter of keeping stuff in check; they've done the 'we'll keep stuff compatible game' before too.
Last, consider that it's not just the amount of power delivered, but also the quality and the means by which it's delivered. Even as Intel has had issues with manufacturing and security (for obvious reasons, i.e. their current architecture basically runs the entire world and was expected to be replaced years ago), they have not had a hiccup as significant as AMDs Ryzen releases saw.
That's very much by design on Intel's part.
We have every reason (historically) to believe that Intel will catch up, and yes, this is mostly related to fab issues; their foray into graphics is important too, but it's not really in the way because it's meaningless if they don't get their CPU house in order.
Their foray into graphics is rooted into two main goals: on the low-end / consumer front, they want to replace low-end parts from AMD and Nvidia, which is something that they absolutely can do, and really already have. This initiative has the potential to pay dividends from the consumer side if they can get the developer support needed for ever more demanding games.
But the big target for Intel is Nvidia's datacenter business. Nvidia rules that roost on the top end, and while Intel has a good game going with Xeon Phi, that they're likely to continue to develop, they also want to replace GPUs that ship in servers -- most with Intel CPUs -- with their own products.
Again, this is less important than CPUs, but for Intel it's definitely a target, and one they can certainly hit.
SnowBeast
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Fucking Intel. Did the plant in Israel get blown up or too costly to upgrade? They can't even make up their mind on which next Lake processor to release this year. Rumor is both comet and rocket this year. April for comet and October for Tiger...whoops Rocket...wait was it Tiger now? I am leaning hard on an AMD upgrade I really don't want to do because of little problems I have always had with any of their platforms. Comet Lake, Rocket Lake, Tiger Lake, Alder Lake....How bout Drowning Lake if you don't get your shit together. My 6700k is too slow for some of the video conversions I am doing with gaming. Plus I am still on a Z170 board I want to upgrade. I upgrade the CPU once every 4 years so maybe a 9900K till 2024. 6700k lasted me that long. Decisions decisions...
N4CR
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Wouldn't give Intel business for a desktop build or laptop these days.. and they deserve being treated that way, fuck em.
jeremyshaw
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Yeah, just try the AMD side again. Maybe the little problems have already been mitigated or are gone. I know a lot of my quibbles from the Phenom II era are long gone (the last time I tried AMD before my 3700x).
IdiotInCharge
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It's unavoidable; they've had to simultaneously roll back plants to 14nm to increase 14nm output while attempting to improve performance and mitigate vulnerabilities while trying to troubleshoot their more advanced technologies.
At least all of the above are as fast or faster per-core as Zen 2.
I went on a lab building spree, but still have a Z170 in service. For everything but video editing it was more than adequate. However, if that's a goal, then yeah, it may be time to upgrade.
I get the sentiment, even agree from a consumer perspective -- and from the desktop side, I can't really argue for Intel on the whole. There are very few places where they make sense.
However, for laptops, it's still an Intel ballgame if you're buying today. I wouldn't recommend buying today of course, but if you are, the sacrifices needed to get everything else you might want in a laptop could preclude the inclusion of an AMD CPU.
Rocket Lake in October? That seems optimistic even before the human malware. It's very possible that Zen 3 will beat it to the market.
As for Laptops, AMD just released the 4000 series (Zen 2) and the reviews are looking very good. In the desktop arena, Intel can still hang or even edge out Intel when they can crank up the clocks. With a 45 TDP in a laptop, things favor AMD now in a big way.
SnowBeast
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Thanks Jeremy, that's what I mean't. I always had some frame rate, system slow down, memory errors,etc.. from the K6-2 to the Phenom. Some little performance reducing Gremlin. Went to Core2 Wolfdale and hadn't looked back since. Specially with Sandy Bridge. No issues ever. That's why I am still hesitant to move back.
SnowBeast
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Tiger and Rocket are already showing up in "leaked geekbench" slides. Rumor or not, a lot out there that is confusing. One minutes its Comet, next I am hearing Tiger lake is showing up in laptops supposedly, and of course Rocket lake. I wish Intel wouldn't force out this high wattage 10 core part. Just lower the price on the 9700k/9900k till end of year.
Comet Lake should be out by the end of the month.
https://www.techpowerup.com/265467/...sktop-marketing-materials-confirm-core-counts
Meteor Lake will not be out until 2022 so early 2021 for Rocket Lake most likely as Intel could very well skip 10nm on desktop (ignoring the NUC parts)
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/future-hardware-releases/
Tiger Lake will most likely be laptop only and share the 11th gen title with Rocket Lake, just as Ice Lake and Comet Lake are both 10th gen parts on laptops.
IdiotInCharge
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They might very well skip the desktop / socketed parts for 10nm given that the majority of their shipments there are OEMs, and their customers simply don't need more performance if Intel could even deliver it given the clockspeed ceilings we've seen so far.
kirbyrj
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Comet Lake is dead on arrival with Rocket Lake expected in Q4'20/Q1'21. If you need the extra cores over the 9900k, you've probably already gone with AMD. The 10900k isn't looking like it's going to be an improvement over the existing 3900x (which is ~$400) with the exception of low resolution/extreme high framerate gaming. Why spend $250 on a good Z490 board when you can just wait for the Z590 with Rocket Lake? Most of Comet Lake is just repackaged Coffee Lake anyway right down to the IGP.
It looks like late May now for Comet Lake.
https://www.techpowerup.com/265511/...lability-and-review-nda-pushed-to-almost-june
The only people I can see buying these are OEMs so that they can slap a '10th gen Intel!!' sticker on the side and those that really need something now and will most likely get a cheaper version so they can upgrade to RKL down the road.
Perhaps some of the Z490 motherboards will have some of the forward thinking features on it such as pcie4 that can be used later.
IdiotInCharge
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The idea that the enthusiast market factors in at Intel's planning stages is really backward itself -- the OEM market is what Intel is developing for. Enthusiasts (and their marketing value) is not forgotten, but if Intel has to choose one, it's OEMs. Yes, Intel absolutely releases new 'generations' solely for OEM purposes. They really can't afford not to, regardless of what their design and fabrication capabilities are, and AMD is no different here for the same reasons.
For enthusiasts, the product either delivers or it doesn't. Excluding fanatics of course.
When I speak about the differences between the two, I typically use the phrase 'single-core performance'. Your description is true today for gaming as far as I know but it could change tomorrow.
I doubt many here are excited about i3 CPUs, but it is impressive to see the new budget 4/8 lineup just trail the once mighty i7 7700k in ST and actually beat it in MT.
https://www.techpowerup.com/266291/...-surface-compared-with-ryzen-3-3300x-and-3100
This did not include the i3-10320 which gets a further 200 mhz boost in single and multi core boost. That should be enough to match the upcoming 3300x in ST and actually beat it in MT. (weird to see the Intel CPU make more ground SMT)
Budget gamers will definitely have some great options in the next couple of months.
https://www.techpowerup.com/266291/...-surface-compared-with-ryzen-3-3300x-and-3100
This did not include the i3-10320 which gets a further 200 mhz boost in single and multi core boost. That should be enough to match the upcoming 3300x in ST and actually beat it in MT. (weird to see the Intel CPU make more ground SMT)
Budget gamers will definitely have some great options in the next couple of months.
Impressive developments for Intel's 10th Gen parts. Prices are looking very good and Intel doesn't look to be resting on their laurels - they are taking AMD serious finally.
https://www.techpowerup.com/266365/intel-10th-generation-core-desktop-series-presentation-leaked
The i3 4/8 processors range from $122 - $154. Early benches show these trading blows with the new AMD R3 lineup and the $20 premium seems fair for the iGPU.
The i5 6/12 lineup ranges from $157-$262, the 8/16 parts range from $298-$374, and the 10/20 i9s range from $422-$488.
The other end of this equation is the rumor that B460 will allow overclocking. Rather promising as the ultra premium 6 layer Z490s would take away from some of that value.
Looking very enticing would be a $237 10600KF with a $125 B460. This would basically cut in half what many forked over for an 8700k and a Z370. It would have been nice to see an unlocked i3 - perhaps a special edition down the road.
Overall, looking very good from Intel!
https://www.techpowerup.com/266365/intel-10th-generation-core-desktop-series-presentation-leaked
The i3 4/8 processors range from $122 - $154. Early benches show these trading blows with the new AMD R3 lineup and the $20 premium seems fair for the iGPU.
The i5 6/12 lineup ranges from $157-$262, the 8/16 parts range from $298-$374, and the 10/20 i9s range from $422-$488.
The other end of this equation is the rumor that B460 will allow overclocking. Rather promising as the ultra premium 6 layer Z490s would take away from some of that value.
Looking very enticing would be a $237 10600KF with a $125 B460. This would basically cut in half what many forked over for an 8700k and a Z370. It would have been nice to see an unlocked i3 - perhaps a special edition down the road.
Overall, looking very good from Intel!
defaultluser
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By the time you'll be able to buy any of these parts at MSRP (roughly 3-6 months) , the entire Zen 4000-series desktop lineup will be released (rumored in September/October). That includes the APU Ryzen 2 parts to compete with the lower-end Intel parts.
Intel won't even be releasing all their boards next month (lower-end boards are not launching until June), so it's not really full launch until then!
Tell me, can you buy a Core™ i9-10980XE more than a handful of places 6 months after it's release? You had the same delay with the 9900k release, and you'll see the same lack of supply with 10 cores!
Intel adding HT across-the-board will also mean a glut of demand for their low-end gaming processors Remember when the Pentium with Hyperthreading couldn't be foound in-stock ANYWHERE? Expect the same shock in demand now for the Core i3/a i5 SIMULTANEOUSLY add this feature.
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A lot to digest there. These are set to launch in 30 days. While the 10 core part may see some limited availability and mark up, I can't see the 4,6, and 8 parts having a problem. My excitement were for those parts anyhow as they are much cheaper than the 8th and 9th gen versions. While early Z490 boards are looking pricey, board manufactures will still compete for the mainstream market.
Both Rocket Lake and Zen 3 may be further away then rumored, so if you want to build something now, Comet Lake is not a bad option.
Not sure why you threw in the 10980xe in a conversation about desktop parts. Not really sure what generation of Pentium you are talking about - I'm guessing it was during the Bulldozer years.
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