Epic Games Store

Discussion in 'PC Gaming & Hardware' started by Blade-Runner, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. mr_zen256

    mr_zen256 2[H]4U

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    Let's be honest. He can frivolously make that comment without any concern for repercussions because he KNOWS Valve would never do that :)
     
  2. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I agree, Steam is a hell of a lot more than just a storefront and launcher. It may not be absolutely perfect, but it works SO well.

    My friends and kids are there first and foremost, as well as our collections of games. I have four game-level PCs in a room in my house. They can be played in that room, or basically any TV or monitor, or laptop throughout the house through Steam In-Home Streaming, Steam Links, and Shield TVs. (I have a TON of monitors and TVs all over the house, and my kids and I can play in basically every room in the house.) That's another big one. (and we actually do, even outside sometimes) My experiences with Valve have all been positive with Steam. Their support (while sometimes a bit slow) has always come through, (not that I've needed them much). They've refunded me the few times I've asked with one exception (which was admittedly a bit ludicrous on my end :D ) I've never had a problem with downloads, communications, etc. The Steam sales while not as interesting anymore, are still significant. I can also buy keys from GMG or CDKeys. Until Epic came along and started poaching games, I could get just about everything I wanted with two exceptions (Mass Effect 3 and Mirror's Edge 2). Steam opened the door for PC based Indies as a whole. It gave them a voice and distribution. Sure maybe the cuts could be better, but many of these devs wouldn't even be around without Valve.

    I don't mind other shops and storefronts being around, but Epic's practices are not good for anyone really, their benevolence is totally fake, and the benefits that devs are seeing in the short term are just that. Short term. I don't think Epic can sustain the cuts they're offering if they want to go into the places that Steam/Valve have and expand their experience. Capital has to come from somewhere. Guesswork on my part of course.

    In conclusion, fuck Sweeney! :p
     
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  3. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    CD keys Borderlands 3 for $44.19 pre-order:
    https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/games/borderlands-3-pc-cd-key

    CD keys Metro Exodus $49.59:
    https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/games/metro-exodus-pc-cd-key

    GMG Borderlands 3 for $59.99 (I assume a coupon works):
    https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/borderlands-3-pc/

    Humble Bundle Metro Exodus for $49.99:
    https://www.humblebundle.com/store/metro-exodus?hmb_source=search_bar

    That is why it is so hard to take the average "Epic sux" comments seriously. I mean we still have people who don't even know the fee structure for Steam (30/25/20%) and they think can figure out what works better for developers? Most can't even figure out the basics.

    No doubt about it though, Steam for gamers is currently better. The margins on EGS are thin and as more features are added the costs will go up. That being said most of it would be a one time cost. Outside of hosting mods there really isn't anything noteworthy that adds to the hosting cost of Steam. Things like family sharing will cost to develop (programmers need pay) but can likely be finished in a few months and then just require standard maintenance. So while I see the costs going up I don't see it going up 100%.

    When the dust settles I think 20% as a flat fee is probably workable long term for something like Steam. With more developers leaving Steam (even before EGS got started) I think Valve will have to come to terms soon.

    The only one that walked back is Bethesda. Likely because FO 76 was such a shitshow, along with the paid mod they and Valve (fucking Valve did this!) fiasco they tried a few years back burned all the goodwill they had. Bethesda has (or had) a good reputation but they must realize they've walking a fine line. Going to their own client, which seems to have been as bad as FO 76 itself, was probably too much. I think they're big enough to have weathered it but Bethesda is certainly shifting from a fan favorite to the next EA in the eyes of gamers.
     
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  4. Bigbacon

    Bigbacon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    woiuld be awesome if tomorrow valve was like "As of today, we only keep 11%"
     
  5. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If Tim dropped the bullshit, (from his mouth) and stopped pretending to be anything but what he is, then Epic stopped artificially creating exclusives, then provided the same or better experience that Steam has, and then maybe offered some form of GOG-Connect type thing, MAYBE I would see them in a slightly different light. At that point, they'd be offering a valid alternative platform.

    "Everyone" (we'll just say the bulk of the arguments I've seen FOR the exclusives (which I still find asinine) is that Epic can't begin to grow into proper competition without them. However, that still doesn't address the fragmentation, or the bad taste that people who choose Steam have when they can't buy the games they want on the platform they choose.

    Epic isn't the only one with exclusives, but they're the only one buying them. I'm not going to count the publishers and devs that host their own front for their games. I may hate it, but I suppose it's their right to do it.

    Steam was pretty much the only real game in town for a LONG time. However, during that time, PC gaming operated as a slick, mostly unified platform that still (in some small ways) allowed for some pricing competition, and other ways to get games. Things were pretty good. Oh well, not much I can do about it. All I know is that I won't buy from Epic. Period. I'll just have to make do with getting the games on Steam when and if they are available.
     
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  6. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Or 5% :D They could probably do it in theory and keep on trucking.
     
  7. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm just pointing out that you're moving goal posts. You mentioned you can't buy Epic games from GMG or similar, I provided three different examples one of which was GMG. At some point you should realize half the stuff the reddit rage base spews isn't exactly accurate. This isn't limited to gaming by any stretch but sometimes you may want to dig a little deeper yourself. At the least you'll be better informed.
     
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  8. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I didn’t actually say anything about Epic’s games at all.

    Edit: Oh, you probably meant the exclusives they poached.

    Not moving goal posts at all. I mentioned those services as a positive for Steam. I’m still not going to use Epic’s service even if I can pay for the games from someone else. How does that not make sense. I. Will. Not. Use. Epic. In. Any. Form.

    So, that includes buying from GMG and registering it on Epic store.
     
  9. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    all of you that are complaining about companies using the epic store, how many of you shop in stores that eat 30% of your salary when you have options to shop in another that eats 12% of your salary?
     
  10. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Kinda depends on what value those stores offer me.
     
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  11. dark_reign

    dark_reign 2[H]4U

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    Most will shop at the one that's more reliable and EGS has a long way to go before they can gain any trust. The exclusivity deals pissed off enough gamers to the point of never buying from their mostly empty store. Free games are nice to have, but it isn't enough to draw a huge amount of signups.

    Valve could easily match what EGS is proposing, but why bother when you're still way ahead of the competition. I don't see EGS reducing their prices very much or at all.
     
  12. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Who is saying companies shouldn’t use the Epic Store? They absolutely should use every means of distribution at their disposal including Epic and Steam. They’ll get a better margin at Epic, but they get a bigger audience and breadth of service at Steam. Plus they profit from both. So why do these back room deals with Epic?

    Also Epic is no friend to PC gamers. Did you forget the giant XBox 360 era fuck you they gave us? Calling us all dirty pirates and saying there was no future in it?

    Tim is about as interested in the good of PC gaming as I am his shop. He only cares now because he saw a lot of dollar signs that he proclaimed wouldn’t be here all of a sudden.

    Who made the PC space attractive enough for him to crawl back? Oh, that’s right it was Valve.

    Anyway, there’s plenty of room for many shops and they should compete on merit not wheel-a-deals.
     
  13. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    You are taking a consumer viewpont, not a developer viewpoint. if I am selling a game I want to sell it at a place I get the most money from it. putting it in two stores will cost sales from the less popular store even if they are paying me more money. doing an exclusive deal, I can do a launch now, get tons of money, and 6 or 12 months later, do yet another launch on steam at the same full price to get that audience. it is the absolute best of both worlds. there is no reason for developers to use any other type of strategy.
     
  14. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don’t think those viewpoints are mutually exclusive. Also if you piss off your customers enough, everyone loses. There is a balance to be struck, and at the moment, I feel the balance (or even balances) are all over the place.

    I see this as a bad thing. Some agree, and some don’t. I disagree with you, but what you’re saying makes sense for your view of the situation. I’ll acknowledge that. Time will tell after things settle. Right now things are shaken up IMO. Never hurts to shake things up either.

    However, IMO, Epic is not actually helping anyone long term. They came out flashy, shallow, dubious, and I don’t think they care about ANY of the things they’re spouting right now. Again, my view.

    My thoughts aren’t more important than yours on this. I don’t think they should be dismissed though. I’ve been a part of gaming since the end of the 70s and worked in it a few times over the years. I’ve seen a lot of patterns. This reminds me of some. I don’t know you though. Maybe you’ve been playing since the mid 70s and worked in the industry more than me :D

    Anyway, we’ll see how it goes. I don’t draw lines in the sand very often at all, but this is one of them.
     
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  15. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    The piss off factor would apply if there was monitization or other annoying aspects to the game.

    Things like Ashen, that game may suffer because it does not have enough name recognition IMO to pull people to epic store to buy it. On the other hand people have been anticipating metro exodus for years, it already has a customer base that will buy the game from wherever. It does not need the marketing that steam does. sure there are bitter tears there, but the steam advertising got tons of preorder money, so it is not like they are suffering any type of loss.

    So when you contrast the two games it is apparent that if your game relies on epic store for a customer base then your game may do better on steam. if however your game is bringing new customers to epic then that is the ideal scenario.

    That is why epic is going after the big names. Now I am not saying they are right or wrong, just that it is a brutal world out there, and FUCK, 30% of all sales for making a webpage and hosting some files (ok 20%) shit how can I get some business like that.

    As for the pirates angle, pirates gunna be pirates because "reasons". The reasons don't matter, they will usually find some that make them feel morally ok about it.
     
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  16. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No arguments to a lot of that. I still see Steam as offering more to developers than hosting though, and not just marketing. They offer just about anything one could need for playing a game, modding a game, hosting and joining your friends, and more without a single hitch. The only downside are some of the users in their forums and reviews :D

    Epic may get there. We’ll see. If they do, cool. I just don’t like them. Haven’t since around UT3ish? I don’t like Tim, and that’s not where I want my money going. If I was a dev, I’d still go to Valve first, then GOG, and yes probably Epic, but I wouldn’t enter into any deals with Epic either. Oh well, I’m not, so my opinion is just that.

    I view Epic (putting my own differences aside for a moment) like a glorified key shop with hosting. Some people will like them, some won’t and further some just don’t care where they get their games at all.

    Totally fine. I guess I’m just a little bit pickier about my setup. I’m also heavily invested in it, and enjoy it how it is. I’ll be damned if Tim Sweeney is going to tell me how to run it :D
     
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  17. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    But you mentioned a positive of Steam is that you can buy games from third parties. You can do the same with Epic keys. Again, I'm just letting you know you're wrong there. I don't care if you would buy from GMG/Epic/CDkeys/whoever or not. But you're claiming something isn't possible when it is.

    Out of the 1-2 million people who will buy Borderlands 3 on PC, guess how many will not buy it because the only client it uses is EGS? Not many. You're a small minority. Gearbox pays 12% from the first sale on EGS. They pay 34% on Steam. They would have to sell around 800,000 copies at $60 to get the fee down to 24%. Profits will be lost from Steam only buyers, but the gains are going to outweigh the losses. Would you rather sell 10 items for $100 profit or sell 11 for $90 profit?

    Your memory must be foggy. A different Epic guy (who did Gears of War if I recall) was more console based, but Epic itself was still very much supporting PC gaming. Tim mentioned that consoles are where the bulk of real game sales (AAA games) are made and especially where most profit is made. Which still holds true. Look to the Witcher 3. No real history on consoles, just a trashy late Xbox 360 port of Witcher 2. Yet Witcher 3 sold much better when new on consoles than it did on PC. And CD Projekt is considered one of the best "PC developers" of modern times. Not exactly shocking; most gamers play on consoles. And consoles are easier to develop for.

    https://news.softpedia.com/news/Tim-Sweeney-Says-the-PC-Is-Dead-for-Games-80714.shtml

    This is also revisionist history. PC sales weren't declining and Valve didn't "save" PC gaming. People merely shifted from physical copies to digital downloads. If Valve "saved" PC gaming, why are consoles still where the bulk of AAA game sales are? Nothing has changed. PC is a viable platform are you'll get around 25-40% of your sales from it. But it isn't the biggest.

    Some statistics from CD Projekt themselves on this:
    https://www.dualshockers.com/witcher-sales-ps4-xbox-one-pc/

    Do note that while PC gamers started buying more copies in later years, that was likely at discount prices. Again, revenue is higher when sold at full price. And this game favors the PC platform heavily due to this developers history.
     
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  18. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    First, I didn't say that buying keys elsewhere wasn't possible on the Epic store. That doesn't change anything about my point.

    Second, I don't care if I'm "in the minority". I don't care if everyone except me buys now, and I'm the only person (well, me, my friends, and my kids) that buy it on Steam. What other people do is up to them. I am in no way telling you how to buy your games. I'm having a discussion about the Epic Game Store, and as such, presenting my personal reasons for not liking it, my opinions of it and the people that run it, and you're welcome to do the same.

    Maybe my memory is foggy on just who said what, but my point stands. Epic's douche-bucketry in the past does color my opinion of them. It's not 100% my deciding factor, but I haven't liked them in some time. I like the idea of the older Epic Games, but that ship has sailed. FOR ME.

    I didn't say Valve "saved" PC Gaming. I said they made it easier, provided a valuable service, and attracted people and devs to the platform at a time when many were ditching it. They are the best thing (yet again in my own opinion) to happen to the platform over the past decade and a half or so. I was around for the early XT PC days. I paid my "coolness dues" configuring jumpers, making boot disks, pulling RAM chips for video and audio boards, running the OS of the minute, etc. After all that, and yes, I look back fondly at those days, it's nice to have something like Steam providing everything I could possibly need to play a game on the PC in a reliable, easy to use, all-encompassing way. For MY needs, it's pretty much spot on. The other part of this, is that many studios would have stayed console exclusive without them, many indies wouldn't have had a mass-market way to sell their games, and the indie movement as we have come to know it now, wouldn't be half of where it is now without Valve. I think jumping to Epic for a bonus and a few percent less cut is somewhat misguided, but that's not up to me. It's up to the devs. I don't have to like it though.
     
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  19. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    just a note, you are doing a false equivalency thing here and a lot of people do. A few games are profitable and those are the ones you hear about. Most are not and will fail and many game companies get shut down for that reason.

    If a company makes a million in sales and has expenses of 700k then under the steam model they have made NOTHING. Under the Epic model they have made 180k.

    The few % cut commonly talked about is not out of the profit, it is out of the gross and that can make all the difference in the world to a company.

    That is why to me, well, I may not like to click a different button to launch a game, but overall I see epic as being a good thing for developers, especially if it pressures steam into lowing their cut. Gotta figure 30% of 0 is 0.
     
  20. Aix.

    Aix. [H]ard|Gawd

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    The discussion as a whole is definitely convoluted: gamers are mad at Epic for the decisions being made by developers...some here are discussing the big picture and how trying to understand the nuts and bolts of how this happened, while others are only discussing how this affects them as a consumer.

    I would say calling 18-23% of each sale "a few percent" is misguided - especially so for indy developers.
     
  21. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I am 100% ok with Valve lowering their cut due to pressure from a competitor. Also, like I said earlier, things are shaken up a bit right now, which isn't a bad thing. With any luck Valve will consider tweaking their model a bit, and Epic will also stop poaching games for asinine exclusivity. I'm not an unreasonable or black and white type of person. There are tons of outcomes here that I would see as beneficial to all involved. However, forcing exclusives as a practice, is backward. It's not progress. It's not helping anyone. Epic could go about this in a much more constructive way and compete without doing this one thing. This ONE thing is what bothers me the most. I may talk about not liking Epic, Tim Sweeney, etc. as part of this conversation, but the only thing that REALLY bothers me is creating exclusives where there weren't any previously. (company owned launching and rare border cases notwithstanding)
     
  22. Skott

    Skott 2[H]4U

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    EGS and reliability do not go hand in hand. At least in my experience they don't. EGS will have to improve by leaps and bounds before they get to Steam's level. Until then I shun them. There are many others that feel and think like I do. EGS can offer better rates all they want but I'm betting many devs are seeing and hearing all this and will think twice. Grab more money up front and piss off your potential fan base and risk future sales/revenue or stick with tried and true and not piss off your potential fan base and not lose future sales/revenue? I guess we'll find out in time.
     
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  23. Niner21

    Niner21 Limp Gawd

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    I haven't purchased anything from the EGS, and after reading about their issues here I'll pass for now. I'll stick with Steam for the time being.
     
  24. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    what you are saying makes no real sense. why would I as a developer want to have my game in a store that makes me less money? It is the same issue as with grey market keys. developers are not "losing" the steam customer base. They are delaying the steam release. They get to launch their product twice and that has to be considered a double win for them.

    As for sweeny and his deals, more power to him. they have cash to pay up front money to guarantee a certain number of sales. I mean to make 12% of all game sales just for hosting some files and making a webpage, I'd be after every AAA game possible. Steam is just asleep at the wheel on this issue.
     
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  25. dragon69

    dragon69 69's Dragons

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    Just like what you are saying makes no sense to me. You don't know if they are really losing the Steam customer base or not. The way I see is if EGS charges less fees, the games can be 5 to 10 bux cheaper than steam, why the hell not release them on both stores at the same time. People will install EGS if they want to save the money on games and people who want to stay on Steam won't get pissed. It's a win win for the devs. Game exclusivity on PC is just plain stupid, it's not like playstation vs xbox here. At this point, I just want physical copies like it was back in the day.

    Oh yeah,

    get_off_my_lawn_1_.jpg
     
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  26. Lmah2x

    Lmah2x Gawd

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    I think time will tell if Sweeney's strategy is better than Valves. I'm not going to act like I know the business or what business model will be more successful. Valve taking the Customers first approach vs Epic taking the Developers first approach. It will be interesting looking back at all this 15 years from now and what transpired.

    The thing is Sweeney is taking risks, but some risks do pay off in the end.
     
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  27. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

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    steam contract does not allow for games to be sold cheaper on other store sites. metro did choose to sell $10 cheaper but that was probably to lessen the backlash.
     
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  28. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Not really. Most gamers will suck it up and buy it on EGS. Developers know this. Consumers really only care about two things:

    1) They like Steam.
    2) Steam is a better client than EGS.

    Everything else to a gamer is irrelevant. There are few exceptions but the vast majority like Steam for those reasons. However, most will end up buying a game regardless of the client it requires. The lack of Steam or *insert client of your choice* isn't a deal breaker for most.

    You'll loose sale numbers, but your margins will be higher on EGS. The difference widens by 4% if you use UE4 like Outer Worlds or Borderlands 3. But the profit margins will work out in the developer's favor. Even if you see a 10% decrease in sales numbers you'll still come out on top at 1 million units sold at $60 USD using Valves 30/25/20% tier levels. Factor in the UE4 fees you'd have to pay if you sold it on Steam and it works out even better in favor of choosing EGS.

    Selling on both would mean most people would use Steam, which means developers are back to square one. And if you charge less on EGS, why bother? Your margins would be the same or possibly worse than Steam depending on the price. You'd be creating more work (dealing with two clients) for no gain.

    The idea of delaying on Steam is that many of the hold outs will eventually buy the game when it comes to Steam. This way you get the high margins of the initial sales and also get most of the Steam only customers.
     
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  29. Travolta

    Travolta Gawd

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    Well I contacted Epic to close and delete my account,,,,,used it to play Fortnite with my son, and I'll just wait to buy Borderlands 3 on Steam, when it's on sale, for a very reduced price.
     
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  30. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    You're so brave
     
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  31. dragon69

    dragon69 69's Dragons

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    You can't assume that everything else to a gamer is irrelevant. I'm a gamer but I'm not a sheep. If I don't like how something is, I have the power to vote with my wallet, which I utilize. I've seen a few others on here as well who think the same way, so please don't use "gamer", use "millenial" or "sheep". Whatever you want to use that doesn't offend anyone is fine, just don't assume that all of one group thinks the same way. Thank you and goodnight.
     
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  32. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

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    Citation needed. That's total nonsense.
     
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  33. schoolslave

    schoolslave Gawd

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    - Tencent
    - disregard for GDPR
    - extremely lackluster account security
    - spyware ie. scanning files without explicit permission

    I think we're done here.
     
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  34. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Network security is part of my job, so I’m sensitive to this, but this is even a side note for me :D (it should be at the top of my list, but those fake exclusives...)

    :D
     
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  35. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You're one of those very few then. But yes, gamers (or whatever you want to call them) won't be phased as a whole. Since we're on the topic of Epic, how is Fortnite doing? Pretty damn well, all on microtransactions as the base game is free. How many years have we been complaining about microtransactions now? And here we have yet another free to play game topping the industry. What about DOTA 2? Another fine example. The game industry can constantly get away with doing these things because gamers cave in the majority of the time.
     
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  36. Blade-Runner

    Blade-Runner 2[H]4U

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    Yup. It's shit like this which makes me hesitate buying anything on EGS right now...

     
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  37. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I honestly don’t necessarily want Epic to fail. What I would like is for them to stop being dicks, maybe fix their security, and compete on price and features instead of fake exclusive BS. As a byproduct, I wouldn’t be adverse to Steam making some adjustments for devs either. I like Steam. I’m going to keep using it, and I have no interest in Epic’s shop, but I do hope this all settles into the best scenario for everyone. It’s just not right now, and could get messier (from my point of view) before it gets better.
     
  38. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    18,661
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    It's true.
     
  39. jiminator

    jiminator Capt Obvious

    Messages:
    11,016
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    All of you that want sales in multiple stores - how many of you are willing to pay 26% more to have a game on steam?
    You claim a few % is insignificant but how insignificant is it if you have to pay it?
    26% more is what you have to pay to net the developer the same money that the 88/12 split does.
    They can even do tiers, after the first sales threshold is reached the price drops to only 17% more, and after the second sales threshold is reached it drops to 10%.
    That means your sixty dollar game will cost 75.6, then 70.2 and finally $66. That sounds like a fair and reasonable solution that should leave everyone happy.
     
    zrikz and GoldenTiger like this.
  40. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,458
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    God damnit. I didn't want to believe it. Tried to karate chop my keyboard but it lacked conviction