Diablo 3 Discussion Thread

[dremic]

I couldn't agree more. The same goes with many other things too. People like to idolize the few names they might recognize as some sort of genius (or idiot). Reality is, these few people don't make or break the games they've been involved in. It's a popular tactic to reel people into kickstarter projects too. There are still many unsung veterans at Blizzard who don't get much credit with their current projects (especially in SC2).

most of blizzard north employees are all execs now

Chris Metzen used to just do handbook illustrations and some art work haha now he is the VP of story and design or whatever






games from when we were younger have a nostalgic effect on people and they feel like the game is untouchable. thats what happens with diablo 2 really, if diablo 3 was diablo 2 with new graphics it wouldve tanked and hard. most of the improvements are sound. granted diablo 3 has its own problems but its successfully rid itself of the problems with diablo 2

 

[JayteeBates]

I thought I was rocking with 30K dps

 

[MavericK]

games from when we were younger have a nostalgic effect on people and they feel like the game is untouchable. thats what happens with diablo 2 really, if diablo 3 was diablo 2 with new graphics it wouldve tanked and hard. most of the improvements are sound. granted diablo 3 has its own problems but its successfully rid itself of the problems with diablo 2

Pretty sure people still play Diablo 2. I played it not too long ago so it's not like it's some "nostalgia" thing.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Everyone claimed to have come from Blizzard and worked on the old Blizzard games at some point. I think there was a period of time where every new RPG claimed they had people who worked on Diablo 2. It's like if the Janitor from Blizzard North left and started working (as the janitor) for another studio, they suddenly now have the brilliance of the team who designed Diablo 2.

I also find this largely irrelevant. Most people will praise D2 with fond memories. If D2 were released today it really wouldn't hold. I really couldn't care less where the original D2 devs are working. I think a lot of what's wrong with D3 is because it holds onto antiquated design concepts from D2 that just don't work in a modern game anymore. There's a reason modern RPG's / MMO's strayed away from D2's randomized item grind model.

All of the subsequent Diablo clones from D2 have been relatively small scale in comparison and are completely different beasts. D3 wants to recreate the same scale as D2 but doesn't want to change antiquated game philosophy from 12 years ago.


Diablo 3 is very much like Diablo 2 in terms of actual game content / scale (minus Act 5 in D2 which came with an expansion).

Firstly, Diablo is not and was not ever an MMO. Second, the randomized loot grind is exactly why it set sales records. Diablo 2, if it were released today, would absolutely hold. People are still playing it in masses. I would go as far as to say it would sell equally as well as this third installment. Most of the backlash with Diablo 3 has nothing to do with antuquated mechanics and core rules even a little bit.

Other than Hellgate:London, nobody ever gave a shit if devs from D2 were making a new game. Because, at best, these are hollow roguelike games with hack and slash elements. Not actual RPG's. It's fun, but not exactly a complex game.

Do you actually believe the things you are saying, or are you exploring the subtlety of trolling?

 

[chockomonkey]

Wizards--What stats are you looking for on your gear? (aside from vit/int, i guses)

I currently have 13.6k dps, 21k hp, 2200 armor, and my top resist is like 170. No wonder i'm getting raped in A1 inferno.

My dps is all int-based, because i've been using arcane orb. I have 0% IAS, and base crit still.

Also, is Frost Nova useless in inferno?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

games from when we were younger have a nostalgic effect on people and they feel like the game is untouchable. thats what happens with diablo 2 really, if diablo 3 was diablo 2 with new graphics it wouldve tanked and hard. most of the improvements are sound. granted diablo 3 has its own problems but its successfully rid itself of the problems with diablo 2

It wouldn't have tanked at all. SC2 was just SC1 with new graphics, essentially. It sold like wildfire too.

Where are some of you coming up with this shit?

 

[Rizen]

Wizards--What stats are you looking for on your gear? (aside from vit/int, i guses)

I currently have 13.6k dps, 21k hp, 2200 armor, and my top resist is like 170. No wonder i'm getting raped in A1 inferno.

My dps is all int-based, because i've been using arcane orb. I have 0% IAS, and base crit still.

Also, is Frost Nova useless in inferno?

Fully buffed I have 33k hp, 4200 armor, 17k dps, and 400 resist all with Prismatic Armor (around 320-350 resist all with Force Armor).

I hit 60 yesterday, so my gear isn't crazy expensive.

I linked my build a few posts back.

 

[dremic]

It wouldn't have tanked at all. SC2 was just SC1 with new graphics, essentially. It sold like wildfire too.

Where are some of you coming up with this shit?

rofl. sold like wildfire. sc2 is absolutely not sc1 with new graphics. strategy / ladder which is its main function is completely and entirely different.

it definitely didn't sell like wildfire either, the sales were healthy at best

Pretty sure people still play Diablo 2. I played it not too long ago so it's not like it's some "nostalgia" thing.

thats good for you; was that your first time playing diablo 2? no.. probably not. the point i was making is that, for new players diablo 2 sucks dick. yeah i played diablo 2 recently too it was alright and some what fun.. but i also played back in the day when it was amazing. New players dont want to play diablo 2 cause its fucking broken. try to argue less i thought you didnt even buy diablo 3? trollin chump.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Firstly, Diablo is not and was not ever an MMO. Second, the randomized loot grind is exactly why it set sales records. Diablo 2, if it were released today, would absolutely hold. People are still playing it in masses. I would go as far as to say it would sell equally as well as this third installment. Most of the backlash with Diablo 3 has nothing to do with antuquated mechanics and core rules even a little bit.

Other than Hellgate:London, nobody ever gave a shit if devs from D2 were making a new game. Because, at best, these are hollow roguelike games with hack and slash elements. Not actual RPG's. It's fun, but not exactly a complex game.

Do you actually believe the things you are saying, or are you exploring the subtlety of trolling?

I never said Diablo was an MMO. I'm not sure why that's even relevant. MMO's and nonMMO RPG's that follow a loot/gear system all face the same design considerations when designing that system. The fact that they're bucketed into these genres hardly matters if you want to talk about a loot system intelligently.

There's a reason games like WOW departed from the random loot generation system to BOP/BOE items with a controlled tiered raiding system. This was D3's first failure with Inferno - Trying to replicate a tiered system with D2's loot system, but that's besides the point. Even Korean RPG's where Koreans are not averse to constantly grinding didn't adopt a randomized loot grind system.

GW1 was advertised to have devs from D2 and it was most certainly an RPG. Not that I cared about that.

Randomized loot grind was ok for D2. Name another game since then (other than D3) that has had the same randomized loot grind system and has seen success on a large scale (note: I don't consider the drove of Diablo clones like TQ / TL to be anywhere near the same order of magnitude). Like I said, there's a reason almost every game with a looting system that has been successful on a large scale has deviated from the randomized loot grind system.

 

[Rdzona]

It wouldn't have tanked at all. SC2 was just SC1 with new graphics, essentially. It sold like wildfire too.

Where are some of you coming up with this shit?

I don't get why people hate on SC2 so much and never give it a fair shake. It is far more than just a reskined SC1. Continued story progression, pathing is excellent (except for colossus sometimes), updated graphics, new gameplay mechanics and controls, new maps, reworked/new units, replays are top notch and all the game info that is provided, and I'm sure there is a bunch more if I really cared to think all of them through. Seriously where do people come up with this shit?

It was a good game then. They didn't have to mess with much of the gameplay, just give it an overhaul and it's good to go. I seriously think sometimes people think the 2nd or 3rd increment of these games should be so drastically different. But then gues what, you'll probably have a completely different game. Why mess with the formula when it obviously works?

SC2 and D3 are SUPPOSE to share similarities with their predecessor's!! That's how it works. What is up with the gaming community these days?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

rofl. sold like wildfire. sc2 is absolutely not sc1 with new graphics. strategy / ladder which is its main function is completely and entirely different.

it definitely didn't sell like wildfire either, the sales were healthy at best




thats good for you; was that your first time playing diablo 2? no.. probably not. the point i was making is that, for new players diablo 2 sucks dick. yeah i played diablo 2 recently too it was alright and some what fun.. but i also played back in the day when it was amazing. New players dont want to play diablo 2 cause its fucking broken. try to argue less i thought you didnt even buy diablo 3? trollin chump.

Over 7 million copies = wildfire. SC2 keeps most of the core elements from the first game.


Diablo 2 continues to sell quite well. Sometimes being in the top 10 for sales figures even these days.

 

[dremic]

I don't get why people hate on SC2 so much and never give it a fair shake. It is far more than just a reskined SC1. Continued story progression, pathing is excellent (except for colossus sometimes), updated graphics, new gameplay mechanics and controls, new maps, reworked/new units, replays are top notch and all the game info that is provided, and I'm sure there is a bunch more if I really cared to think all of them through. Seriously where do people come up with this shit?

It was a good game then. They didn't have to mess with much of the gameplay, just give it an overhaul and it's good to go. I seriously think sometimes people think the 2nd or 3rd increment of these games should be so drastically different. But then gues what, you'll probably have a completely different game. Why mess with the formula when it obviously works?

SC2 and D3 are SUPPOSE to share similarities with their predecessor's!! That's how it works. What is up with the gaming community these days?

its the same people who say this game sucks it looks like wow ;(

hahaha of course there will be similarities its the same fucking company

 

[LeninGHOLA]

I don't get why people hate on SC2 so much and never give it a fair shake. It is far more than just a reskined SC1. Continued story progression, pathing is excellent (except for colossus sometimes), updated graphics, new gameplay mechanics and controls, new maps, reworked/new units, replays are top notch and all the game info that is provided, and I'm sure there is a bunch more if I really cared to think all of them through. Seriously where do people come up with this shit?

It was a good game then. They didn't have to mess with much of the gameplay, just give it an overhaul and it's good to go. I seriously think sometimes people think the 2nd or 3rd increment of these games should be so drastically different. But then gues what, you'll probably have a completely different game. Why mess with the formula when it obviously works?

SC2 and D3 are SUPPOSE to share similarities with their predecessor's!! That's how it works. What is up with the gaming community these days?

I didn't hate on SC2, not one bit. I'm actually glad they didn't fuck with the formula too much.

Jesus.

 

[dremic]

Over 7 million copies = wildfire. SC2 keeps most of the core elements from the first game.


Diablo 2 continues to sell quite well. Sometimes being in the top 10 for sales figures even these days.

Diablo 2 sales are pretty irrelevant i dont even know why you mentioned them here. but Ive owned about 3 different copies of diablo 2 the third finally being digital and attached to my b.net acc.


most people consider sc2 to be a failure in terms of sales.. and where are you getting 7 million? id love to see the list that you are looking at if it in fact exists..




http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/587-best-selling-game-list.html


#12: StarCraft II: Wings Of Liberty

Sold: 4.5 Million Copies

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

most people consider sc2 to be a failure in terms of sales.. and where are you getting 7 million? id love to see the list that you are looking at if it in fact exists..

I'm not sure where the "failure" comes from... The only thing I remember is some Activision higher up mentioning it wasn't as high as they liked (maybe it was Bobby? My memory is hazy here).

I don't think the public has any real figures on sales considering digital numbers are never released.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

I never said Diablo was an MMO. I'm not sure why that's even relevant. MMO's and nonMMO RPG's that follow a loot/gear system all face the same design considerations when designing that system. The fact that they're bucketed into these genres hardly matters if you want to talk about a loot system intelligently.

There's a reason games like WOW departed from the random loot generation system to BOP/BOE items with a controlled tiered raiding system. This was D3's first failure with Inferno - Trying to replicate a tiered system with D2's loot system, but that's besides the point. Even Korean RPG's where Koreans are not averse to constantly grinding didn't adopt a randomized loot grind system.

GW1 was advertised to have devs from D2 and it was most certainly an RPG. Not that I cared about that.

Randomized loot grind was ok for D2. Name another game since then (other than D3) that has had the same randomized loot grind system and has seen success on a large scale (note: I don't consider the drove of Diablo clones like TQ / TL to be anywhere near the same order of magnitude). Like I said, there's a reason almost every game with a looting system that has been successful on a large scale has deviated from the randomized loot grind system.

It's relevant because you keep comparing to MMO's. If it wasn't, you wouldn't.

If you actually think that the addictive element of the random loot grind isn't exactly why Diablo games sell so well, then what the fuck drives those sales? It certainly isn't the story. It isn't the RPG elements.

If Blizzard released a Diablo games that wasn't at all like any of the Diablo games, people would be flying off the handle.

 

[Rdzona]

I didn't hate on SC2, not one bit. I'm actually glad they didn't fuck with the formula too much.

Jesus.

Didn't mean to jump on ya lol. Prob b/c I've just been reading stuff like that lately and well, your post was the one that I commented back on with my opinion. So I apologize if it came off to strong.

 

[shansoft]

Diablo 2 sales are pretty irrelevant i dont even know why you mentioned them here. but Ive owned about 3 different copies of diablo 2 the third finally being digital and attached to my b.net acc.


most people consider sc2 to be a failure in terms of sales.. and where are you getting 7 million? id love to see the list that you are looking at if it in fact exists..




http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/587-best-selling-game-list.html


#12: StarCraft II: Wings Of Liberty

Sold: 4.5 Million Copies

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=746577

This is where the source came from...

And from when?

Feb 19 2011, 07:06 AM

All I can say right now is.... This game is a total horseshit....

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

It's relevant because you keep comparing to MMO's. If it wasn't, you wouldn't.

If you actually think that the addictive element of the random loot grind isn't exactly why Diablo games sell so well, then what the fuck drives those sales? It certainly isn't the story. It isn't the RPG elements.

If Blizzard released a Diablo games that wasn't at all like any of the Diablo games, people would be flying off the handle.

You seem to completely ignore the fact that I keep saying it was ok for Diablo 2. Diablo 3 sold well because of Diablo 2, not because of its own merits. I'm fairly certain everyone can agree on that.

I don't claim to know what Blizzard should have designed Diablo 3 to be. I just know that a randomized loot grind system is very unrewarding nowadays. This is very obvious with D3 and the issues with the AH. I think it's apparent to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the real issue with the AH and everyone's bitching/moaning about gear is due to the very fact that gear drops are randomized. The AH makes gear availability transparent. People see expensive gear. They want it. They run a few farming runs. They don't get the same gear. They bitch and moan. Inferno exacerbated things with its own design issues, but for the most part we have people in nightmare/hell (and even that guy who's level 33) who claim that you NEED the AH to get the appropriate gear to level. This is absurd on so many levels and the root of the issue is the randomized loot system combined with the transparency of the AH.

You have people who played D2 who want to feel like they're 13 again (this just isn't going to happen... games have come a long way and you as a person have come a long way). New players who didn't play D2 are baffled by the loot system and discouraged overall.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Diablo 2 sales are pretty irrelevant i dont even know why you mentioned them here. but Ive owned about 3 different copies of diablo 2 the third finally being digital and attached to my b.net acc.

Why are Diablo 2 sales irrelevant? New people continue to play this, not just folks that lose their copies. It's relevant because D2 doesn't suck, and it has great sales figures.
I mentioned it because you were talking about it....

 

[LeninGHOLA]

You seem to completely ignore the fact that I keep saying it was ok for Diablo 2. Diablo 3 sold well because of Diablo 2, not because of its own merits. I'm fairly certain everyone can agree on that.

I don't claim to know what Blizzard should have designed Diablo 3 to be. I just know that a randomized loot grind system is very unrewarding nowadays. This is very obvious with D3 and the issues with the AH. I think it's apparent to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that the real issue with the AH and everyone's bitching/moaning about gear is due to the very fact that gear drops are randomized. The AH makes gear availability transparent. People see expensive gear. They want it. They run a few farming runs. They don't get the same gear. They bitch and moan. Inferno exacerbated things with its own design issues, but for the most part we have people in nightmare/hell (and even that guy who's level 33) who claim that you NEED the AH to get the appropriate gear to level. This is absurd on so many levels and the root of the issue is the randomized loot system combined with the transparency of the AH.

You have people who played D2 who want to feel like they're 13 again (this just isn't going to happen... games have come a long way and you as a person have come a long way). New players who didn't play D2 are baffled by the loot system and discouraged overall.

If it sold so well, and broke sales records because of D2, and D2's core mechanic was randomized loot grind....

People are complaining because rare + loot drops are reduced compared to D2 (confirmed more than a couple times by blue posts) and people can see the AH loot. It's not the same loot system, it's neutered based on balancing around a player led economy.

 

[stevedave]

Try this wizard build its fun. Its great for killing Diablo or multi player with a tank.

It might only work for my wizard because he has 1700 Life per second though.

Run Dropping Blizzard, Hydra, and Meteor behind you and never look back.

KITE BOSS

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

If it sold so well, and broke sales records because of D2, and D2's core mechanic was randomized loot grind....

People are complaining because rare + loot drops are reduced compared to D2 (confirmed more than a couple times by blue posts) and people can see the AH loot. It's not the same loot system, it's neutered based on balancing around a player led economy.

The numbers aren't exactly the same, but it's the same system. You can't deny that.

Rares are plentiful with nephalem valor. Very plentiful. Players gripe because they see blue and yellow and not green and gold. This is a shallow gripe in general and easily fixed by recoloring words.

Honestly throughout the years I've tried picking D2 back up but it never lasted for more than a few hours. I've tried getting friends to play D2 (notably when D3 was announced) just to get a taste of Diablo and no one really liked D2 at all. If you asked me why I spent so much time on D2 during my childhood... my honest response is "I was 13 years old". I came to this realization after putting down D3 after only 150 hours or so (dwarfed by my D2 hours for sure). I tried to think of what would make D3 enjoyable to me again and there's nothing that can be done without radically redesigning the game.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Wizards--What stats are you looking for on your gear? (aside from vit/int, i guses)

I currently have 13.6k dps, 21k hp, 2200 armor, and my top resist is like 170. No wonder i'm getting raped in A1 inferno.

My dps is all int-based, because i've been using arcane orb. I have 0% IAS, and base crit still.

Also, is Frost Nova useless in inferno?

I'm no expert, I haven't really delved into +crit rate/+crit dmg. But really just your overall DPS is quite low for inferno, as are your resists. At this point, I would say your vitality is actually fine, though a bit on the low side.

I currently have about 23.6k DPS, 24k hp, 3.6k armor and resists averaging around 650. I can take a decent number of hits while kiting, enough that I can wait for a pot or diamond skin to come back up. This is also before 1.03, so damage will be even easier to take now.

I go for +int and +resist all. I've never had much gold, so I can't afford any gear that also has +vit on it in addition to those 2 stats...it's insanely expensive.

Currently my build is:

Diamond Skin w/double dmg absorb
Prismatic Armor
Force Weapon w/15% increase
Blizzard w/reduced casting cost

Magic Missle w/Split
Venom Hydra

Passives: Glass Cannon, Blur, 3rd can rotate given need. Usually the 75% damage buff after 5 stacks of normal attacks.

Worked great in Act1 even before the nerfs, I could breeze through it. Act2 on the other hand was retarded...I've been out of town/out on the town too much and haven't played much recently, so I'm looking forward to see how far I can go in 1.03.

If it sold so well, and broke sales records because of D2, and D2's core mechanic was randomized loot grind....

People are complaining because rare + loot drops are reduced compared to D2 (confirmed more than a couple times by blue posts) and people can see the AH loot. It's not the same loot system, it's neutered based on balancing around a player led economy.

Also, D2 items were heavily duped, giving an even heavier impression of better drops. The entire economy rotated around SOJ exchange rate...

 

[HardUp4HardWare]

Hey guys, (and gals if there are any).

Can someone point me to a site/app or anything that will help me with builds?
I have a monk now and I don't know squat about d3 theorycrafting. But I don't think his DPS is where is ought to be.

I could search for it, but y'all probably know the best quickest coolest way to do this because you are all so amazingly cool and all...
Thanks!

 

[TwistedAegis]

The numbers aren't exactly the same, but it's the same system. You can't deny that.

Rares are plentiful with nephalem valor. Very plentiful. Players gripe because they see blue and yellow and not green and gold. This is a shallow gripe in general and easily fixed by recoloring words.

I like D3, but while rares are plentiful, good or even decent rares most certainly aren't. For example, 95% of the rare weapons I get in Act1 inferno do 300 DPS or less.

 

[Rdzona]

@Intel_hydralisk

You keep talking about the loot and how people compare it to the AH and the coloring. I've posted with you a couple of times and you keep driving this point. Although I've said this in the past, it's not about the AH or the coloring. When I'm playing and I'm say lvl 50 and, I can't really quantitatively state, but the vast majority of the loot that is dropping (any color) is quite a few levels lower than me. 10-15 lvls!!! That to me is the problem. They don't line up with were I'm at in the game, so THEN I go to the AH.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

I like D3, but while rares are plentiful, good or even decent rares most certainly aren't. For example, 95% of the rare weapons I get in Act1 inferno do 300 DPS or less.

Does it matter? If they were plentiful everyone would have them so it's not like your relative worth goes up. They would just be valued less and everyone would be steamrolling Inferno and then we'd have the complaint that the game's too easy etc. Catch 22.

People interpret the steep item requirement in inferno as Blizzard's way to cash out with RMAH. Blizzard's gameplay intent with inferno was for people to grind it like they did in WOW. (When raid resets were 1 week, not sure what they are now since I haven't played in forever... you'd run the raid once a week. So 4 weeks later, you've 'farmed' that place 4 times. 4 fucking times in 1 month. This is how progression was).

Now imagine the same idea of progression applied to a game like Diablo 2. The end result? The torrent of bitching and moaning about gear. I've said it in the thread before, this is the primary downfall of pre-nerf Inferno and the primary driver of the AH bitching and whining.

The cycle:
- Get to inferno
- Game's a lot tougher than hell!
- Need to gear up... *looks at AH*
- Oh em gee, a super good item for lots of gold
- *Farms a little* ... no super good item of my own dropped
- Can't get item = I can't progress = Bitch and moan on forums

This relates back to the AH transparency. The game's full of fucking window shoppers. This has destroyed the player base psychologically. People want the best shit and they all want it now (this is the primary driver of AH bitching / whining). They can easily see what the best stuff is on the AH and everyone wants it. Should Blizzard give it to everyone? When should they do that? How long should you need to farm? 1 month? 1 week? 1 year? 2 years?? How long did you play D2 to get your items? How long do you want D3 to last?

D2 was botted up to hell and duped to oblivion. People had good shit because good shit was plentiful. If everyone wants D2 so bad, Blizzard should allow bots and allow dupes so everyone can have 1500+ dps weapons and steam roll inferno. That's what Diablo 2 was, don't even deny it.

@Intel_hydralisk

You keep talking about the loot and how people compare it to the AH and the coloring. I've posted with you a couple of times and you keep driving this point. Although I've said this in the past, it's not about the AH or the coloring. When I'm playing and I'm say lvl 50 and, I can't really quantitatively state, but the vast majority of the loot that is dropping (any color) is quite a few levels lower than me. 10-15 lvls!!! That to me is the problem. They don't line up with were I'm at in the game, so THEN I go to the AH.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I honestly don't think drops while leveling is an issue. I never had issues gearing up from my own drops. I just cannot relate to all these posts about having difficulty getting to 60 without the AH. Maybe it's not the gear.

 

[pcjunkie]

Hey guys, (and gals if there are any).

Can someone point me to a site/app or anything that will help me with builds?
I have a monk now and I don't know squat about d3 theorycrafting. But I don't think his DPS is where is ought to be.

I could search for it, but y'all probably know the best quickest coolest way to do this because you are all so amazingly cool and all...
Thanks!

Yeah....I could use a "D3 Classes for Dummies" book myself.

 

[JayteeBates]

I like D3, but while rares are plentiful, good or even decent rares most certainly aren't. For example, 95% of the rare weapons I get in Act1 inferno do 300 DPS or less.

I got a rare 95dps weapon last night off the butcher in inferno with 5 NV stacked. W.T.F. 95 DPS ilevel 52 rare...omg I was so beside myself.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

The numbers aren't exactly the same, but it's the same system. You can't deny that.

Rares are plentiful with nephalem valor. Very plentiful. Players gripe because they see blue and yellow and not green and gold. This is a shallow gripe in general and easily fixed by recoloring words.

Honestly throughout the years I've tried picking D2 back up but it never lasted for more than a few hours. I've tried getting friends to play D2 (notably when D3 was announced) just to get a taste of Diablo and no one really liked D2 at all. If you asked me why I spent so much time on D2 during my childhood... my honest response is "I was 13 years old". I came to this realization after putting down D3 after only 150 hours or so (dwarfed by my D2 hours for sure). I tried to think of what would make D3 enjoyable to me again and there's nothing that can be done without radically redesigning the game.

Of course it's the same system, the problem IS the numbers. Look dude, I respect you, but you're really missing a few steps here. 5 stacks of NV at level 60 does indeed get you plentiful gear. Now, if you look, most people who are complaining about lack of gear aren't in Inferno 5 stacking NV. They are usually level 1-59.

If you have (had) to get to level 60 and ActIV Inferno to get the gear, what's the point? No ladders, no PVP. You're just gearing to gear. In D2, gear dropped and helped you progress. It was fun building set items even in Nightmare difficulty in D2. You could actually get a bite off that ol' carrot on the stick. You cannot have randomized loot without any payoff until the end. It defeats the purpose. Borderlands did a fine job of randomized loot (and sold well). TQ did a fine job of it (and sold well). D2 did a fine job of it, then LoD came out and it was even better.

It is further compounded by the level 60 cap and relative ease of reaching it. Level 99 took week-months easily. You grew accustomed to keeping gear for weeks at a time, carefully planning slots, and being rewarded with boss runs.

In D3, the difference between level 59 gear and level 61 gear is potentially massive, especially for weapons. Going from 10kdps at 58 to 100kdps at 60 with infero on farm is retarded.

Essentially, you start the game gear starved and end the game disgusted with the glut of gear. There lacks incremental progression. The pace of levelling is off. Gear isn't nearly as plentiful as D2 until the very end. Gear in a randomized gear game is a careful process of balance, and it should nevrer ever be balanced around a player driven economy. D2 wasn't (for the most part) balanced for what you could get through auctions or d2jsp. The economy was only wrecked by dupes, and only if you chose to buy/trade for duped items.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Does it matter? If they were plentiful everyone would have them so it's not like your relative worth goes up. They would just be valued less and everyone would be steamrolling Inferno and then we'd have the complaint that the game's too easy etc. Catch 22.

I realize that, but you're taking both ends of the argument here. Yes rares are plentiful, but it doesn't matter if they're all pieces of crap. People's recollections of D2 are more frequent useful drops. No one cares if you got 300 legendary drops per day if after weeks none of them were usable or sellable.

People interpret the steep item requirement in inferno as Blizzard's way to cash out with RMAH. Blizzard's gameplay intent with inferno was for people to grind it like they did in WOW.

Now imagine the same idea of progression applied to a game like Diablo 2. The end result? The torrent of bitching and moaning about gear. I've said it in the thread before, this is the primary downfall of pre-nerf Inferno and the primary driver of the AH bitching and whining.

The cycle:
- Get to inferno
- Game's a lot tougher than hell!
- Need to gear up... *looks at AH*
- Oh em gee, a super good item for lots of gold
- *Farms a little* ... no super good item of my own dropped
- Can't get item = I can't progress = Bitch and moan on forums

This relates back to the AH transparency. The game's full of fucking window shoppers. This has destroyed the player base psychologically. People want the best shit and they all want it now (this is the primary driver of AH bitching / whining). They can easily see what the best stuff is on the AH and everyone wants it. Should Blizzard give it to everyone? When should they do that? How long should you need to farm? 1 month? 1 week? 1 year? 2 years?? How long did you play D2 to get your items? How long do you want D3 to last?

Agreed, but is that the players fault or the game mechanics? Also, I believe a huge part of the issue was the way they designed leveling and skills. In D2, even if you didn't get any items, you were still leveling up and growing more powerful! In D3, if you aren't getting items that upgrade you, your time was 100% wasted. That's a huge difference, even beyond the window shopping AH effect.

D2 was botted up to hell and duped to oblivion. People had good shit because good shit was plentiful. If everyone wants D2 so bad, Blizzard should allow bots and allow dupes so everyone can have 1500+ dps weapons and steam roll inferno. That's what Diablo 2 was, don't even deny it.

Again agreed, but I think there is a happy medium here. There is oversaturation of good/great items (D2) and complete lack (D3). The truly great items should require the AH/trading - the runewords of D2 for example. But right now it seems to be lacking

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I honestly don't think drops while leveling is an issue. I never had issues gearing up from my own drops. I just cannot relate to all these posts about having difficulty getting to 60 without the AH. Maybe it's not the gear.

For the most part. But remember with RNG, there are going to be people out there totally screwed in gear and thus have a hard time advancing, even while leveling.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Also, D2 items were heavily duped, giving an even heavier impression of better drops. The entire economy rotated around SOJ exchange rate...

Only if you participated in it. The in game economy was entirely unnafected by dupes unless you traded gear, which was never needed. Blizzard altered drop rates due to the inclusion of the AH, thus treating it like every item was a dupe. It's frustrating for those who didn't participate in the dupe economy of D2, or played solo.

 

[MavericK]

thats good for you; was that your first time playing diablo 2? no.. probably not. the point i was making is that, for new players diablo 2 sucks dick. yeah i played diablo 2 recently too it was alright and some what fun.. but i also played back in the day when it was amazing. New players dont want to play diablo 2 cause its fucking broken. try to argue less i thought you didnt even buy diablo 3? trollin chump.

No, it really doesn't suck for new players and it really isn't broken. And yet again your 12-year-old nature comes out, very classy.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Only if you participated in it. The in game economy was entirely unnafected by dupes unless you traded gear, which was never needed. Blizzard altered drop rates due to the inclusion of the AH, thus treating it like every item was a dupe. It's frustrating for those who didn't participate in the dupe economy of D2, or played solo.

It was needed for the best of the best (Zol, etc), which is what the current economy should be balanced around IMO. Right now it's balanced around even decent gear.

That being said, I don't think Inferno should have been beaten in the first week/month in a RNG game. However the way Blizz implemented it wasn't a smart/fun "heroic raid" type, but just a frustrating grind with overpowered stats thrown in. This contributed to people's frustrations that they weren't able to grind/farm it to get better gear - you couldn't outsmart it for the most part, you had to have the gear to participate. Which you couldn't get in the first place without the AH. It's a circular equation.

 

[Intel_Hydralisk]

Of course it's the same system, the problem IS the numbers. Look dude, I respect you, but you're really missing a few steps here. 5 stacks of NV at level 60 does indeed get you plentiful gear. Now, if you look, most people who are complaining about lack of gear aren't in Inferno 5 stacking NV. They are usually level 1-59.

If you have (had) to get to level 60 and ActIV Inferno to get the gear, what's the point? No ladders, no PVP. You're just gearing to gear. In D2, gear dropped and helped you progress. It was fun building set items even in Nightmare difficulty in D2. You could actually get a bite off that ol' carrot on the stick. You cannot have randomized loot without any payoff until the end. It defeats the purpose. Borderlands did a fine job of randomized loot (and sold well). TQ did a fine job of it (and sold well). D2 did a fine job of it, then LoD came out and it was even better.

It is further compounded by the level 60 cap and relative ease of reaching it. Level 99 took week-months easily. You grew accustomed to keeping gear for weeks at a time, carefully planning slots, and being rewarded with boss runs.

In D3, the difference between level 59 gear and level 61 gear is potentially massive, especially for weapons. Going from 10kdps at 58 to 100kdps at 60 with infero on farm is retarded.

Essentially, you start the game gear starved and end the game disgusted with the glut of gear. There lacks incremental progression. The pace of levelling is off. Gear isn't nearly as plentiful as D2 until the very end. Gear in a randomized gear game is a careful process of balance, and it should nevrer ever be balanced around a player driven economy. D2 wasn't (for the most part) balanced for what you could get through auctions or d2jsp. The economy was only wrecked by dupes, and only if you chose to buy/trade for duped items.

The complaints about 1-59 is mostly from some individuals in this forum. I don't have evidence about overall population, but I speculate that most people don't have an issue in that range with item drops. Everyone I know on my friends list (a lot of whom are new to Diablo type games) never had an issue with it. They all however did hit the inferno brick wall and stopped playing largely.

I don't think building sets in nightmare was what made D2 successful. Especially considering the vast majority of players elected to power level given the option. There's really only so many times you could stand to go through every act all over again... especially if it was because you misclicked a stat / skill.

Borderlands was fun but not really because of the loot. The loot system was also pretty shallow in that game to be honest. After beating the game, how many people farmed it continuously afterwards for the loot? I most certainly did not. This is also true of TQ and TL etc. They were a fun playthrough but that's it.

This is why I bring up the magnitude of these games. D3 has more lofty goals in mind. They don't want people to play through and just drop it - this wasn't what D2 was about either. Which brings up the whole concept of if D2 game concepts would really be ideal nowadays. What do we really want players to do after Diablo is dead? D3's answer was: Farm for months in Inferno. This was the wrong answer clearly. So what if we just bring it back to what D2 was? Grinding to 99 in different ladder seasons? Maybe... but I know I wouldn't do that.

If you were to balance the game solely based off of personal drops - what do you think is fair? You do realize Inferno is likely clearable with your own drops - it would probably just take several more months of farming. Clearly the population as a whole is not willing to do that. I wouldn't want to do that either. The way I played the game, I had no issues with the AH. I think the bitching is more psychological than anything else. It's certainly not about effectiveness since Inferno (now more than ever) is very clearable without the super expensive gear.

 

[dremic]

No, it really doesn't suck for new players and it really isn't broken. And yet again your 12-year-old nature comes out, very classy.

reported for thread crapping







anyways before this kid contributed absolutely nothing.


i get why people would complain before NV at like 59 and before. but now that ilvl63 items can drop in act1 gearing up for act 2 is much more viable. I played for a couple hours last night and got that 1200 dps weapon

 

[LeninGHOLA]

It was needed for the best of the best (Zol, etc), which is what the current economy should be balanced around IMO. Right now it's balanced around even decent gear.

That being said, I don't think Inferno should have been beaten in the first week/month in a RNG game. However the way Blizz implemented it wasn't a smart/fun "heroic raid" type, but just a frustrating grind with overpowered stats thrown in. This contributed to people's frustrations that they weren't able to grind/farm it to get better gear - you couldn't outsmart it for the most part, you had to have the gear to participate. Which you couldn't get in the first place without the AH. It's a circular equation.

Right, but you simply didn't need the best of the best in D2 outside of ladder and PVP. Honestly, I think capping D3 at 99 and making levelling more spread out would have helped the itemization issue. If not, adding alternate experience after 60 (like buying the abikity t improve skills in 5% increments).

 

[cageymaru]

Best Demon Hunter in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq9Sl7qVpRs&feature=plcp&list=PLE116AECFE70B4571

 

[dremic]

Right, but you simply didn't need the best of the best in D2 outside of ladder and PVP. Honestly, I think capping D3 at 99 and making levelling more spread out would have helped the itemization issue. If not, adding alternate experience after 60 (like buying the abikity t improve skills in 5% increments).

that gives a retarded edge to the people that have nothing to do all day, not to mention progression like that means progression in inferno which translates into cash via the rmah.

you didnt need the best of the best in d2 cause d2 wasnt hard; theres nothing hard about killing baal 50-100 times