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Diablo 3 Beta

officer921 said:
So I enjoy this game so far. Never a Diablo player. Is Torchlight 2 better than this game? I like the game, but I see a lot of complaining about it, which leads me to believe there may be better options. This is my first foray into this genre.
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Honestly, you need to play Diablo and Diablo 2. Badly.
 
fdiaz78 said:
Thats a bit of a stretch. What is it now? an FPS?
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its a action rpg downsized for noobs to sell a lot of games.
roleplaying action rpg seems to be a lost cause.

however offers me enough fun to buy it.
:D
 
I like it too, I'm excited for it to come out.

I have my reservations like everyone else, for example the not being able to play single player when Blizzard horks up the servers is annoying, the graphics aren't that stellar, and the no stat points/customization thing is kinda lame.

However, it is still fun IMO and I'll hopefully enjoy the rest of the game as well as I've enjoyed the Beta so far.
 
SilverSliver said:
Had fun. Pre-ordered. It's not like Diablo 1 or 2 were that complex.
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oh just about 10 times more complex than Diablo 3 :)

I finally got to play it and it does have some pluses, but lots of minuses too :(

I like the enemies and bosses better. They feel like less zerging, more planning.

I didn't like leveling up--there's really nothing to do when that happens.

The gear feels simpler. Especially the weapons.

Actually i can't figure out the weapons--what's the deal there?

Do you just put whatever weapon has the biggest DPS number in your weapon slot, regardless of weapon type?
 
chockomonkey said:
just about 10 times more complex than Diablo 3 :)
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Feel free to explain. I remember vividly going onto the forums to find out the "best" builds for a particular class and/or patch, and then farming Mephisto ad-naseum. Where is the mind blowing complexity you are alluding to?
 
SilverSliver said:
Feel free to explain. I remember vividly going onto the forums to find out the "best" builds for a particular class and/or patch, and then farming Mephisto ad-naseum. Where is the mind blowing complexity you are alluding to?
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I didn't ever look up builds, so i guess it just felt more complex because i was constantly trying to figure out what i thought was best on where to spend my stats and talent points.

Their reason for axing these things is just as dumb as the fact that they got rid of them... I just watched the video posted about the stat-allocation. Their reason for removing it was basically yours: "in D2, the stat allocation was dumb--so we got rid of it."

They should have taken the approach: "in D2, the stat allocation was dumb--so we improved upon it so now it is a good stat allocation system"

Just my opinion, they obviously had a different one.
 
The problem is that with a game of this nature, with persistent characters and items essentially being the economy, you have to be extremely careful with the way stats are balanced and distributed. It's not as black and white as you think it is; one broken build is all that's required to 'ruin' everything.

Let's say someone discovers a certain build that allows you to kill bosses exponentially faster than everyone else. Then what? Fix the problem and force people to re-roll (until the next OP build is found), or leave it in so it's Diablo 2 all over again?
 
chockomonkey said:
I didn't ever look up builds, so i guess it just felt more complex because i was constantly trying to figure out what i thought was best on where to spend my stats and talent points.
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So your "complexity" was a symptom of you not knowing, or caring, how to get the most of your character. I'd say that is a pretty poor reason to keep around the old system.

Looking at the different skill combinations and how they work together, along with the runes and other goodies, I think there will be plenty of room for customization. It's not PoE level of build customization, but it's not any less complex than D1 or D2.
 
Well in D3, they've obviously taken the approach that they don't want people to have to re-roll. So yes, they could fix the problem and people could re-spec.

But yea, like you said it just comes down to development time balancing a stat-system out. The less customization, the easier the game is to balance. They didn't want to take the time.
 
SilverSliver said:
So your "complexity" was a symptom of you not knowing, or caring, how to get the most of your character. I'd say that is a pretty poor reason to keep around the old system.

Looking at the different skill combinations and how they work together, along with the runes and other goodies, I think there will be plenty of room for customization. It's not PoE level of build customization, but it's not any less complex than D1 or D2.
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Like the guy said in the video posted above, if you have a mathematical equation, there will always be a "best" way to do things. The goal (i'd imagine) is to create an equation where there are many different possibilities up there in this "best" range which are good viable builds. I think i found many of these builds in D2 by looking at the synergies and planning out my own builds. They were obviously not the best of the best builds i ended up with, but they worked and were fun because I made them.

I doubt i'm the only person interested in finding their own builds they enjoy and not just mindlessly following some guide online.
 
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chockomonkey said:
Like the guy said in the video posted above, if you have a mathematical equation, there will always be a "best" way to do things. The goal (i'd imagine) is to create an equation where there are many different possibilities up there in this "best" range which are good viable builds.

Also, I doubt i'm the only person interested in finding their own builds they enjoy and not just mindlessly following some guide online.
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If that's the case, I'd argue that with the skill/rune system as is you will have MORE viable build options than you did in D2/D1, not less.
 
Unfortunately a lot of people end up feeling a lack of complexity by effectively cheating; "Meh, this game was easy. I followed the walkthrough some guy posted online and never once got lost and found all the secret areas". It's what the age of the internet has done to us. :p
 
SilverSliver said:
If that's the case, I'd argue that with the skill/rune system as is you will have MORE viable build options than you did in D2/D1, not less.
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That may be true. However at least to me, it didn't feel like i was creating a character, more like i was unlocking portions of a pre-built one. (which i suppose is true no matter what system you look at--which just goes to show, it's all in the execution)
 
chockomonkey said:
Well in D3, they've obviously taken the approach that they don't want people to have to re-roll. So yes, they could fix the problem and people could re-spec.

But yea, like you said it just comes down to development time balancing a stat-system out. The less customization, the easier the game is to balance. They didn't want to take the time.
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Blizzard not taking time to balance something? You obviously don't know Blizzard very well.

 
chockomonkey said:
That may be true. However at least to me, it didn't feel like i was creating a character, more like i was unlocking portions of a pre-built one. (which i suppose is true no matter what system you look at--which just goes to show, it's all in the execution)
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I can agree with that then.
 
uzor said:
Blizzard not taking time to balance something? You obviously don't know Blizzard very well.

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True, they are constantly rebalancing everything, all the time ...

Hell, up until recently, they were still balancing D2!!
 
chockomonkey said:
*They got rid of stat allocation instead of finding a way to balance it.
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They did not get rid of it, they changed it. Take a few minutes to read this post from the D3 forums, linked earlier in this thread. Here is a pertinent excerpt:

D2 allocated a player 5 stat points for every level they acquired. Some quests also rewarded stat points. Gems gave stat points as well. Gems were largely useless as a source of stat modification. The max level gem only gave +10 to a particular stat, and only to helms or armor. Runes may fill in the gap but they weren’t really used for that purpose.

D3 takes stat allocation to a whole new level. A lot of players make the argument that they are losing out on the ability to customize their character, let’s take a look at that. What did we lose? If you look at the gem distribution you’ll note that they all add a significant amount to your stats, all the way from 6-58. You’d only need 10 max level gems to have more control over your base stats than a level 99 character in d2. It’s basically Blizzard saying “okay player, instead of spending 5 per level up to 500 points, we’ll give you items which give (instead of 6 levels worth at end-game D2) 20-40 levels worth of stat points as 1 modifier on an item”. There could be an item in Diablo 3 (or multiple items) that give more stat points than the entire level 2-99 bonus (490 points) COMBINED. Now put some gems into it! Now that’s the polar opposite of a “pretty !@#$ty customization system”. The biggest lesson here is that the higher the numbers go (outside of leveling bonuses), the more control a player has over where to spend them.

Beyond that, the choices for using the stat points are now meaningful. You may note that the end of each section says "this stat is now viable for all classes". It isn’t simply “100 str, 75 dex, 400 vitality, 10 energy”. Now you have to choose, do I want to dish out the damage? Would I rather absorb the damage? Can I just avoid the damage? These are a lot more meaningful choices and they still progress along the same line as leveling. You can also a directly quantifiable return from investing these points
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True, it is in the execution. Either you willingly follow cookie cutter builds (which are optimal)...or you are free to create a less than optimal character haha. Now, the lack in optimal builds is using less desirable skills (without the skill runes). I do feel the stat allocation is the more interesting discussion vs. the skill point removal.

I know people were really against the lack of 'hard' choices (with the ability to 'respec' skills anytime), but as I played through beta, I was pretty happy with it. The downside is that apart from skills you can place on the hotbar, you are limited in terms of active/damage skills - but I know that's gotta be linked for balance (and to the skill allocation removal).
 
chockomonkey said:
Like the guy said in the video posted above, if you have a mathematical equation, there will always be a "best" way to do things. The goal (i'd imagine) is to create an equation where there are many different possibilities up there in this "best" range which are good viable builds. I think i found many of these builds in D2 by looking at the synergies and planning out my own builds. They were obviously not the best of the best builds i ended up with, but they worked and were fun because I made them.

I doubt i'm the only person interested in finding their own builds they enjoy and not just mindlessly following some guide online.
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I agree with you. I never looked up build stuff online when playing Diablo 2 and I managed to beat the game a few times over just fine. I don't understand where this criticism of Diablo 2 is coming from with people saying that you "had" to look up the "best" builds in order to play the game. That's blatantly false. If you want to do some hardcore max build stuff, then sure. But I would wager that 80%+ of players didn't give two shits about "max" builds.
 
uzor said:
They did not get rid of it, they changed it. Take a few minutes to read this post from the D3 forums, linked earlier in this thread.
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I didn't see that link earlier, so thanks for reposting it. Seems like an interesting read.

I haven't read it all yet but so far it seems like the Diablo 3 stat system is basically tied to random drops and/or items that you buy from vendors. Which is kind of interesting, but I agree with chockomonkey that leveling up in Diablo 3 doesn't feel as meaningful anymore because there is no stat allocation attached to it. Now it seems like you are basically just waiting for "milestone" levels where you get a new skill or can use a higher-level item or something.

EDIT: Also I do not care for this statement:

Stat point allocation has not disappeared, it has transferred. Like several other game systems it has become something that you may buy on the auction house.
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The problem was they come up with multiple ways of customizing your character which basically did the exact same thing, so they ended up merging the two systems into one since they were redundant. The problem is that gives the impression of a reduction of different customization options when they really weren't different methods to begin with. They need to stop creating redundant systems and/or actually come up with new unique ways of customizing your characters fighting style/prowess. Each expansion of WoW is seeing the same thing, with them trying to reduce the number of redundant stat/ability/point systems they kept on introducing.
 
MavericK96 said:
I didn't see that link earlier, so thanks for reposting it. Seems like an interesting read.

I haven't read it all yet but so far it seems like the Diablo 3 stat system is basically tied to random drops and/or items that you buy from vendors. Which is kind of interesting, but I agree with chockomonkey that leveling up in Diablo 3 doesn't feel as meaningful anymore because there is no stat allocation attached to it. Now it seems like you are basically just waiting for "milestone" levels where you get a new skill or can use a higher-level item or something.
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From what I understand, the higher levels of gems all have to be crafted. They do not occur naturally out in the wild. So, it is not all random drops - the crafting elements are supposed to be a significant portion of your character build and tweaking.

::edit re your edit::
yeah, I don't really care for that statement either. I'd much rather find/make all my stuff than buy it, and that is easily doable.


 
MavericK96 said:
I didn't see that link earlier, so thanks for reposting it. Seems like an interesting read.

I haven't read it all yet but so far it seems like the Diablo 3 stat system is basically tied to random drops and/or items that you buy from vendors. Which is kind of interesting, but I agree with chockomonkey that leveling up in Diablo 3 doesn't feel as meaningful anymore because there is no stat allocation attached to it. Now it seems like you are basically just waiting for "milestone" levels where you get a new skill or can use a higher-level item or something.
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I disagree. You can still min-max your builds the exact way you want them. The focus of that time and effort has been shifted even more so to acquisition of items, however. You want a stamina build Wizard? Start collecting items. The customization is still there.
 
SilverSliver said:
I disagree. You can still min-max your builds the exact way you want them. The focus of that time and effort has been shifted even more so to acquisition of items, however. You want a stamina build Wizard? Start collecting items. The customization is still there.
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With the reading provided, i'm starting to see that more and more. Cool! It totally makes sense for them to move those customizations to a place they can make profit off them. Hopefully it doesn't take TOO much grinding to get a gem... it already felt funky to me going back to the blacksmith and giving him all my money just to unlock some recipes which i then in-turn spend more money on.
 
Keep in mind that the Blacksmith upgrades are account-wide, not per character. Think of it as an investment rather than a waste of money. Besides, what else do you have to spend your gold on really?

 
chockomonkey said:
With the reading provided, i'm starting to see that more and more. Cool! It totally makes sense for them to move those customizations to a place they can make profit off them. Hopefully it doesn't take TOO much grinding to get a gem... it already felt funky to me going back to the blacksmith and giving him all my money just to unlock some recipes which i then in-turn spend more money on.
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While it feels that way now, remember how gold behaved in D2, i.e. had no value whatsoever. Crafting is a means to give gold a use.
 
uzor said:
Keep in mind that the Blacksmith upgrades are account-wide, not per character. Think of it as an investment rather than a waste of money. Besides, what else do you have to spend your gold on really?
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Kryptorchid said:
While it feels that way now, remember how gold behaved in D2, i.e. had no value whatsoever. Crafting is a means to give gold a use.
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I figured that with the AH now, gold would be quite useful. Hopefully there's a good gold market, because I enjoyed the WoW AH. But i'm not interested in spending real money on there...

Good to know it's Account-wide as well!!! Thanks.
 
uzor said:
Keep in mind that the Blacksmith upgrades are account-wide, not per character. Think of it as an investment rather than a waste of money. Besides, what else do you have to spend your gold on really?

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That is pretty neat. And I do agree that gold doesn't really matter that much. I had more gold than I could hold/stash in Diablo 2 because eventually you just don't use it anymore.
 
MavericK96 said:
That is pretty neat. And I do agree that gold doesn't really matter that much. I had more gold than I could hold/stash in Diablo 2 because eventually you just don't use it anymore.
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Well there was always gambling...I had a pretty bad addiction and thus never had much gold sitting around. Never did get a SoJ through it. :( Does D3 have gambling as well?
 
You could say that the blacksmith is now the source of gambling. It is pretty much the same thing. You are breaking down items instead of selling them for gold, then using those mats + more gold to make an item with x amount of random attributes.
 
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