A really good manual will be needed as well. Nothing worse than trying to put together something with cheap or vague instruction manual.
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Before asking NCASE about Micro-ATX...
- Thread starter wahaha360
- Start date
A really good manual will be needed as well. Nothing worse than trying to put together something with cheap or vague instruction manual.
The_Oasis
Limp Gawd
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The problem comes with exactly how hard that's gonna be. I mean, IKEA has their packaging down to an ART, and a lot of that comes with how they've designed their products from the ground up to be for flat packing. They're sturdy, modular, and not exactly detailed. Of course, that can be designed for, but I don't think of aluminium when I think 'sturdy', and when I do it's never going to be bent sheet metal. I'd also be wary of the cost of time. Sure, it might be a lot cheaper, but if I've got to now manage a whole bunch of specialized nuts and bolts (which themselves require specialized tools) to get the thing together. Depending on some people, it might not be worth their time.
I might just be exaggerating and it could be as easy as slightly thicker sheets that clip together like the NCase's side panels (that'd be neat), so please take all I just said with a grain of salt and a Big Gulp of suspicion.
The problem is, at least from the discussions I've had with w360, is that it doesn't really get much cheaper until you can fill an entire cargo container. But then it takes months to ship by ocean freight, and it's not like those are all sold units, so we'd have to warehouse them here (which costs money), and continually ship them out as we get orders. That's where a distributor would come in, but they need their own hefty cut naturally. The shipping cost might be less, but with the storage and distributor cut, it can end up being a wash.
I understand your point, but the reality is that the price of something already includes a lot of hidden logistical costs and margins for various parties. If I told you the actual cost to LL to make the M1, you might be insulted. Their cost isn't close to what they charge us, of course, and we have to add our own margin, so the actual final price-to-cost ratio is greater than you might think.
So yeah, flat (or flat-ish) packing is something I'm looking at. Based on the bit of work I've done on it so far, it shouldn't need to be too complicated. Imagine five main parts to the chassis - top, bottom, front, back, and a motherboard tray - that have to be screwed together using one screw type. Everything else - exterior panels, brackets - would be tool-less. I think it would be pretty manageable.
The_Oasis
Limp Gawd
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Awesome! Looks like I was exaggerating!
Exactly how far can you push tool-less? While something like the mobo tray and back I can understand having screws (having to support that weight) could you have the entire top (panel and all) be tool-less? Having it as a simple assembly like on the NZXT H440 (entire top panel can be removed to reveal the top-radiator fan mounts) would be neat.
Well, you really do still need at least some solidly attached chassis beams at the top for structural rigidity, like the M1 has. A tool-lessly attached top panel by itself can't provide that.
Yeah, we've looked into Amazon. One of the founders of Schiit Audio wrote up a whole huge series of posts on their business, including a section on Amazon. It's basically a bunch of extra complexity, costs, and potential headaches, which is not something we really need at this point.
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
I see. An added problem with distributors is that you force everybody to pay taxes. Right now its just a lucky draw for us. So far so good for me
I'm not sure you understood me. What I'm saying is this:
Imagine I'm interested in a 2 keycap for my keyboard (this is a legit example, since its real). Those keycaps cost $10, but the shipping costs $30, which total $40. Shipping is only the means to get your package, and overall expensive shipping makes cheap products ilogic, since you are paying 3 times the product in shipping.
Now, imagine I don't want just 2 keycaps, I want a full set. The full set costs $60, and the shipping costs $40. $100 total. You can see that you are still paying more for both shipping and the product, but the product-to-shipping ratio is much much less.
All in all what I'm trying to say is that if shipping is expensive, you will have more success with a high quality no compromise product that if you try to save $40 on the price (and on the design, since I'm talking about keeping the margins they way they are). Because if the case ends up being $100 (at retail price) but you add $80... the increase is terrific. On the other hand, if the case is $220, the increase is not that bad.
And you better take your cut into every case you sell. I don't want you out of business!!!!!!!!! At least not until you finish the damn NCASE S1
PS: having a business degree myself I perfectly understand the difference between price and cost. LL might sell you every M1 for less than $40 for all I care. Heck, they could even be giving them to you for free (which ain't happening). The quality of the goods we got, as well as the overall service was, and still is, second to none. So, to me, it isn't important how much does LL ask for the cases, since I'm not in the designing or producing or selling cases industry. I'm in the buying one ^^
So, maybe I didn't explain myself very well. Your argument is that the product price to shipping price ratio is not proportionate, and the point I was trying to make is that the product-cost-to-everything-else-cost (which may include shipping) already looks stupid if you were to actually break it down. I completely understand, though, that there would be the perception on the part of the buyer that they're paying (to use your example) 80% more than the supposed value of the product, just to have it delivered. Which is why, actually, we'd very likely roll some of the actual shipping cost into the product price. So, again using your example, instead of $100 + $80 shipping, we might charge $150 for the case, and only $30 for shipping, so it makes more sense to the buyer. In fact, we're actually doing something like that now with the M1, in that we're subsidizing the shipping cost for certain regions.I see. An added problem with distributors is that you force everybody to pay taxes. Right now its just a lucky draw for us. So far so good for me
I'm not sure you understood me. What I'm saying is this:
Imagine I'm interested in a 2 keycap for my keyboard (this is a legit example, since its real). Those keycaps cost $10, but the shipping costs $30, which total $40. Shipping is only the means to get your package, and overall expensive shipping makes cheap products ilogic, since you are paying 3 times the product in shipping.
Now, imagine I don't want just 2 keycaps, I want a full set. The full set costs $60, and the shipping costs $40. $100 total. You can see that you are still paying more for both shipping and the product, but the product-to-shipping ratio is much much less.
All in all what I'm trying to say is that if shipping is expensive, you will have more success with a high quality no compromise product that if you try to save $40 on the price (and on the design, since I'm talking about keeping the margins they way they are). Because if the case ends up being $100 (at retail price) but you add $80... the increase is terrific. On the other hand, if the case is $220, the increase is not that bad.
And you better take your cut into every case you sell. I don't want you out of business!!!!!!!!! At least not until you finish the damn NCASE S1
PS: having a business degree myself I perfectly understand the difference between price and cost. LL might sell you every M1 for less than $40 for all I care. Heck, they could even be giving them to you for free (which ain't happening). The quality of the goods we got, as well as the overall service was, and still is, second to none. So, to me, it isn't important how much does LL ask for the cases, since I'm not in the designing or producing or selling cases industry. I'm in the buying one ^^
Anyway, this argument is moot at the moment, since we're talking about reducing both manufacturing cost and shipping cost. And reducing the former doesn't necessarily imply a drop in quality, either. Sacrificing quality is about the last thing I want to do. The only things that we may have to give up on are some of the features of certain concept designs, since if we're serious about flat packing some things just aren't going to work with that.
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I agree, $80 is a lot. Though looking at ebay, there are a number of $100 atx/matx cases with free shipping (from South Korea). I wonder how they do it...unless they can make the case for less than $20, it doesn't make sense. To be honest, I don't know how some of these companies make money. I can buy a $1 item from China with free shipping and I get a box 2 weeks later, flown halfway around the world. To send the same item to family on the other side of the country, it costs me $15! Cheaper to buy a new one and have it shipped directly to them...
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
That's probably not far off the mark, actually. You can go on Alibaba right now and find hundreds of listings for full ATX tower cases for $10-$20 in bulk. Those Ebay sellers also have hundreds of listings, so they're probably shipping thousands of packages a month, and at that level you can get discounted shipping rates. So it might be something like $15 for the case, $50 for shipping, and $35 for everything else (fees and other overhead). There's still enough room in that for maybe $15-$20 profit on each case.
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Still doesn't make sense to me...haha! For $20, I couldn't even buy the materials required to make a PC case.
Pat-Roner
Weaksauce
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If the "monolith" would have to be scrapped BC of cost issues in the mATX form factor, I love love to see this transferred to a mITX with better ATX psu support.
Hi,
in my opinion you shouldn't focus on make everyone happy. Not every hardware fitted the M1, why should a small mATX case fit all the big hardware that people want? This is the task of fullsize cases.
I think SFF cases are for minimalists and/or for enthusiats that only want to put the newest and the stuff they need in a litte case. There is no need for 5.25" ODD's or 3.5" HDD and ATX PSU's. Now we have so much good tiny and powerfull things like M.2 drives and upcoming 750w SFX PSU's and more efficient high end GPU's, so please focus on these as a base. I know SFF will take some time to get standard, but average pc builders that buy full size hardware, will buy a normal ATX case anyway.
just my two cents
in my opinion you shouldn't focus on make everyone happy. Not every hardware fitted the M1, why should a small mATX case fit all the big hardware that people want? This is the task of fullsize cases.
I think SFF cases are for minimalists and/or for enthusiats that only want to put the newest and the stuff they need in a litte case. There is no need for 5.25" ODD's or 3.5" HDD and ATX PSU's. Now we have so much good tiny and powerfull things like M.2 drives and upcoming 750w SFX PSU's and more efficient high end GPU's, so please focus on these as a base. I know SFF will take some time to get standard, but average pc builders that buy full size hardware, will buy a normal ATX case anyway.
just my two cents
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wahaha360
Gawd
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I was in China for factory tours, I know about these cheap Korean but made in China cases, I've also seen the factories that makes them.
My concern with these factories are:
1) their work force are not very skilled, so they can only make very simple case designs (tooling / die stamping only, their workers are not trained for manual bending / hand made cases like the M1)
2) quality and fitment variation between each product is just too much (tooling may have passed it's rated life cycle or is second hand)
3) the factory will not refund payment if the aluminum is found to contain lead or doesn't confirm to 5052 aluminum spec
4) sometimes they don't pay the workers to lower the cost of production
5) I checked hiring websites to see which factories are hiring and the job requirements for their QA, and didn't like what I saw.
These are the things that I know, and it's making me uncomfortable.
I'm sure there are many other things that I don't know which enables these factories to achieve such low prices. I have a feeling finding out will make me even more uncomfortable.
That being said, it's not all bad news. I have been looking into manufacturing and logistics for the last few years. When Necere's design is ready, I have a list of people to call for prototyping
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That being said, it's not all bad news. I have been looking into manufacturing and logistics for the last few years. When Necere's design is ready, I have a list of people to call for prototyping
My money is ready.
Is there any direction Necere is leaning in?
I will echo what I said before and others saying there isn't a need to support all hardware. As the new SFX power supplies and GPU's have shown, a lot can be done with a little and that would likely lead to some interesting designs other manufacturer's aren't willing to do or will be late to the party on.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before..But to make it more space efficient, why not do something like dondan did? Have one GPU lay horizontal via a PCI extender over the PCI slots. Use a second PCI Extender in the lowest slot and wrap that to the other side of the motherboard if you want a second GPU. That in combination with an SFX Psu should cut volume down.
* I see Lian Li did something similar with the pc-o6
//Found this: Probably a really stupid idea for a 12L SLI mATX case.
That's what I am referring to
* I see Lian Li did something similar with the pc-o6
//Found this: Probably a really stupid idea for a 12L SLI mATX case.
That's what I am referring to
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Its just a design concept at this point from what I'm hearing. I don't think Necere has committed to it as of yet.
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Sounds almost like you've seen too much...The voice in my head when reading this had a very ominous tone.
wahaha360
Gawd
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It is wild west in Asia (not just China) when it comes to small scale manufacturing. Just look at crowdfunding, even very successful projects have problems with manufacturing.
In the past few years, I have been helping crowdfunding projects with manufacturing (mostly friends and referrals). This time, I was in China for about 6 month touring factories. For both NCASE and another friend's product.
Being there for 6 month allows me to follow up with people and dig deep into some of the factories. Overall, despite all the crazy stories that I have heard, there are still many good people in this world and that makes me cautiously optimistic
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
It is wild west in Asia (not just China) when it comes to small scale manufacturing. Just look at crowdfunding, even very successful projects have problems with manufacturing.
In the past few years, I have been helping crowdfunding projects with manufacturing (mostly friends and referrals). This time, I was in China for about 6 month touring factories. For both NCASE and another friend's product.
Being there for 6 month allows me to follow up with people and dig deep into some of the factories. Overall, despite all the crazy stories that I have heard, there are still many good people in this world and that makes me cautiously optimistic
Whatever Necere designs... tell him to get a Phanteks high-end product, if anything to see where are the current leading companies (innovation-wise) going. I personally bought a Phanteks Evolv myself and... it is the best I have ever owned. I'm saying this because if you go out of the mITX zone... you need to consider what the big boys are doing, and IMO Phanteks is leading the punch at the moment. Both feature and quality-wise.
But still... keep poking him about the LRPC
wahaha360
Gawd
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Whatever Necere designs... tell him to get a Phanteks high-end product, if anything to see where are the current leading companies (innovation-wise) going. I personally bought a Phanteks Evolv myself and... it is the best I have ever owned. I'm saying this because if you go out of the mITX zone... you need to consider what the big boys are doing, and IMO Phanteks is leading the punch at the moment. Both feature and quality-wise.
But still... keep poking him about the LRPC
I was suppose to visit the factory that makes it, I will check out that factory before we release mATX
D
Deleted member 222586
Guest
Their quality is simply OUTSTANDING and I can only imagine what sort of QC they run through. Threading was excellent, paint job was excellent, heck everything is excellent. I found out the other day that the front IO is plastic because I rma'ed mine and had to change it. Had I never changed It I would have never found out.
Seriously, they put all the other case companies to shame. The only thing that is a bit strange is the psu cover. It's very thin and because it has a whole to pass through some psu cables (for the gpu, mainly) it makes it wobble if you press it ever so slightly. It might even cause vibrations in some cases. I haven't experienced those, though. But the wobbling I didn't like. Still, the rest of the product itself is far above the price tag is not even funny for the other case fabs out there. It is also quite light if you consider that everything is metal (sans the filters, the small front IO piece, the HDD tray covers and the bottom HDD brackets).
Seriously, they put all the other case companies to shame. The only thing that is a bit strange is the psu cover. It's very thin and because it has a whole to pass through some psu cables (for the gpu, mainly) it makes it wobble if you press it ever so slightly. It might even cause vibrations in some cases. I haven't experienced those, though. But the wobbling I didn't like. Still, the rest of the product itself is far above the price tag is not even funny for the other case fabs out there. It is also quite light if you consider that everything is metal (sans the filters, the small front IO piece, the HDD tray covers and the bottom HDD brackets).
Qrash
Gawd
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I've used several Fractal Design cases the past few years and I've always thought their manufacturing quality was excellent. However, a few years ago the included fans were another matter.
Lego Technician
n00b
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Concerning the 1b. layout: would it be better to have five separate PCBs in the I/O module for each button/port to isolate the USB signals from the headphone/microphone at the same time make it look nice on the outside?
Arranged like this: M U P U H
M: microphone port
U: USB3 port, horizontal orientation
P: power button
H: headphone port
Also, the I/O module could be at the bottom front (below both 14cm fans without moving them). A 5th slot is necessary because of the location of the I/O module. If there's a cutout for the I/O module at the bottom front then it would be mirrored by a top front cutout for the slim ODD (i.e. bottom front cutout: trapezoid pointing up, top front cutout: trapezoid pointing down).
+ Visually pleasing front
+ 5th slot
+ Unused 5th slot= 1.) SSDs or other mounted along the bottom or 2.) better airflow to bottommost GPU
- Extra vertical height
- Visually pleasing I/O module might cost too much
- PSU gulps warm/hot air from CPU cooler but immediately expels it
My favorite is the 1b. layout!
Arranged like this: M U P U H
M: microphone port
U: USB3 port, horizontal orientation
P: power button
H: headphone port
Also, the I/O module could be at the bottom front (below both 14cm fans without moving them). A 5th slot is necessary because of the location of the I/O module. If there's a cutout for the I/O module at the bottom front then it would be mirrored by a top front cutout for the slim ODD (i.e. bottom front cutout: trapezoid pointing up, top front cutout: trapezoid pointing down).
+ Visually pleasing front
+ 5th slot
+ Unused 5th slot= 1.) SSDs or other mounted along the bottom or 2.) better airflow to bottommost GPU
- Extra vertical height
- Visually pleasing I/O module might cost too much
- PSU gulps warm/hot air from CPU cooler but immediately expels it
My favorite is the 1b. layout!
F
Findecanor
Guest
Microphone and headphone signals go in the same cable anyway. An air-gap does not insulate better against EM interference than a PCB, especially if the PCB has a ground plane.
There many cases that have the other way around: USB ports split between audio ports, and frankly, I think that looks ugly.
There many cases that have the other way around: USB ports split between audio ports, and frankly, I think that looks ugly.
cyklode
n00b
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- May 29, 2016
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Late to the party on this one but wow that’s seriously nice. My only comments are pretty pathetic and wouldn’t prevent me from buying:
- Is the optical drive really necessary at this point in time?
- Could the front IO USB ports be in vertical orientation rather than horizontal (like the Power Mac G5)?
- Could we see the internal layout inverted, something more similar to 2c?
Allanitomwesh
Weaksauce
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- Jun 28, 2014
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Hi Necrere, been absent quite abit,
Still a big fan of the 30L-ish design,I can see you are trying out more compact designs.
I had a few ideas to try on that design I like, such as a mesh front (should help reduce depth?) and mounting drives on the top lid,which if im not wrong, is sealed?
Thanks for coming up with cool cases
Still a big fan of the 30L-ish design,I can see you are trying out more compact designs.
I had a few ideas to try on that design I like, such as a mesh front (should help reduce depth?) and mounting drives on the top lid,which if im not wrong, is sealed?
Thanks for coming up with cool cases
I'm still reading this thread but I just want say this. I actually registered to say this. I am probably still in minority but I dream of a mATX case that is totally legacy free. That makes no effort to accommodate 3.5" disks and 5.25" optical drives. Just four 2.5" slots for SSDs and as small, as efficient as possible. I will pay extra for the lack of legacy options as long as that simplifies the layout of the case.
I don't own one but I really like the way M1 is designed, the looks, everything. The quality seems to be way above anything else. I would be perfectly happy with simply a larger version. I find the proportions pleasing to the eye: not a skinny tower, but not really a cube either. I wonder if the same proportions would work for a mATX case.
One thing I do dislike about some of the alternative mini and micro cases, M1 included, is how they scatter SSDs all over the case. This may seem like space saving idea but then you need to run four power cables instead of just one power cable with 4 connectors. My ideal case would just drop 3.5" and have room for 4x25" drive next to each other so they can be serviced with a single power cable.
Adam
I don't own one but I really like the way M1 is designed, the looks, everything. The quality seems to be way above anything else. I would be perfectly happy with simply a larger version. I find the proportions pleasing to the eye: not a skinny tower, but not really a cube either. I wonder if the same proportions would work for a mATX case.
One thing I do dislike about some of the alternative mini and micro cases, M1 included, is how they scatter SSDs all over the case. This may seem like space saving idea but then you need to run four power cables instead of just one power cable with 4 connectors. My ideal case would just drop 3.5" and have room for 4x25" drive next to each other so they can be serviced with a single power cable.
Adam
dultcers
n00b
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- Jun 19, 2016
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This is the most recent design I've worked on:
The concept was inspired partly by cellphone design. It's using the 1a layout, with full 165mm tower cooler support and rear 120mm fan. Dimensions are 360x200x420mm/30.2L, so squarely in TJ08-E territory.
I would absolutely buy this however I think that top drive bay should just be a slot for a blueray or dvd player like on the current NCASE.
The drive mounts at the front of the case are more or less right next to each other, so it's really only the ones on the case floor that the criticism applies to. The thing is, they're there to give you options for drive placement, since depending on whatever else you're using you may not have space in one location or another. I could not have included those drive mounts, but would giving users less options really be better?
Phuncz
2[H]4U
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I see his point: keeping support for "obselete" standard hardware keeps people supporting it too, making it a long endeavour. This might be OK for standard ATX behemoths, where recently cases have begun excluding multiple 5,25" as-standard. It's the same with ATX and SFX PSUs: 99,99% would be happy with the current available PSUs, but we all know that the time people will switch is going to take many many years.
The same for HDDs, with 4TB 2,5" drives being available, as are 2TB SSDs, the need for 3,5" storage rapidly shrinks. Although this might be too soon for an ATX case now, maybe in a year this will make much more sense when stacked NAND drops the price on large SSDs.
But for ITX, I'd say: take responsibility as a modern designer and show people the way. In the end if your design has enough appeal, people will learn to live with the limitations and could appreciate what it does offer. If the Ncase M1 didn't offer SFX as-standard, how many people would have been able to use it most efficiently ?
The same for HDDs, with 4TB 2,5" drives being available, as are 2TB SSDs, the need for 3,5" storage rapidly shrinks. Although this might be too soon for an ATX case now, maybe in a year this will make much more sense when stacked NAND drops the price on large SSDs.
But for ITX, I'd say: take responsibility as a modern designer and show people the way. In the end if your design has enough appeal, people will learn to live with the limitations and could appreciate what it does offer. If the Ncase M1 didn't offer SFX as-standard, how many people would have been able to use it most efficiently ?
I do not know what is "better", you're the designer. I'm just saying that this would be my ideal case
I haven't used internal 3.5" or 5.2" drives in builds for at least two years now. I understand that it's hard to satisfy everyone. I was thinking along the lines of a "convertible" cage that can take either two 3.5" drives mounted vertically or four 2.5" drive drives mounted horizontally. Such cage would be placed in the front of the case, on the very top, on adjustable rail that would allow you to move it according to the thickness of the front radiator.Allanitomwesh
Weaksauce
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- Jun 28, 2014
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Maximum options please
New 24L ATX concept
Posting this here because it doesn't need a new thread, and it's more of an ATX/microATX hybrid case anyway.
This concept is a compact, water cooling-oriented inverted ATX case, with flexible mounting for fans/rads, PSU, and drives on the top and front. The flexible mounting allows you to make different trade offs based on your needs. For example, mounting a radiator or PSU at the top will block off some of the expansion slots.
Preliminary specs:
Dimensions (H x W x D): 350 x 180 x 380mm, 24L
CPU cooler: ~145mm
Motherboard: inverted ATX, 8 slots
Front fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Top fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Rear fan mount: 1x 92mm
PSU: SFX/SFX-L, flexible mounting
Radiator support: Up to 1x280 in front + 1x240 on top
Drives: TBD
Window: optional
WIP interior pic:
WIP exterior renders showing a couple of different directions for the design:
#1, rounded style
#2, M-style
I'd like to hear which design direction people prefer, as well as any other feedback or thoughts people might have.
Posting this here because it doesn't need a new thread, and it's more of an ATX/microATX hybrid case anyway.
This concept is a compact, water cooling-oriented inverted ATX case, with flexible mounting for fans/rads, PSU, and drives on the top and front. The flexible mounting allows you to make different trade offs based on your needs. For example, mounting a radiator or PSU at the top will block off some of the expansion slots.
Preliminary specs:
Dimensions (H x W x D): 350 x 180 x 380mm, 24L
CPU cooler: ~145mm
Motherboard: inverted ATX, 8 slots
Front fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Top fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Rear fan mount: 1x 92mm
PSU: SFX/SFX-L, flexible mounting
Radiator support: Up to 1x280 in front + 1x240 on top
Drives: TBD
Window: optional
WIP interior pic:
WIP exterior renders showing a couple of different directions for the design:
#1, rounded style
#2, M-style
I'd like to hear which design direction people prefer, as well as any other feedback or thoughts people might have.
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New 24L ATX concept
Posting this here because it doesn't need a new thread, and it's more of an ATX/microATX hybrid case anyway.
This concept is a compact, water cooling-oriented inverted ATX case, with flexible mounting for fans/rads, PSU, and drives on the top and front. The flexible mounting allows you to make different trade offs based on your needs. For example, mounting a radiator or PSU at the top will block off some of the expansion slots.
Preliminary specs:
Dimensions (H x W x D): 350 x 180 x 380mm, 24L
CPU cooler: ~145mm
Motherboard: inverted ATX, 8 slots
Front fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Top fan mounts: 2x flexible 140/120mm
Rear fan mount: 1x 92mm
PSU: SFX/SFX-L, flexible mounting
Radiator support: Up to 1x280 in front + 1x240 on top
Drives: TBD
Window: optional
No interior pics yet, but here are some WIP exterior renders showing a couple of different directions for the design:
#1, rounded style
#2, M-style
I'd like to hear which design direction people prefer, as well as any other feedback or thoughts people might have.
The rounded one is absolutely gorgeous!
But why so big? Seems like mATX could fill those needs just fine, yeah? I'd rather be limited to using a slim radiator but get a smaller case for it; SFF is expected to come with a couple trade-offs here and there.