Before asking NCASE about Micro-ATX...

[Aibohphobia]

I feel the same way about the front I/O. The ports don't line up. The audio jacks look kind of cheap and are a different shade from the power button. One audio jack sticks out further than the other. The cutout for the USB ports are huge.

Keep in mind the pics are of the prototype so it has the typical prototype flaws. As far as having the IO on the top vs the front, it's really preference. I like the clean front and I've heard from other people who really like it too and I've also heard from people who hate it, there's no making everyone happy

This might add extra weight to the already heavy case for its size. Maybe aluminum case panels would have been lighter than the steel panels. Maybe they would be more expensive in production, but I would rather trade shipping cost for case price, if the exterior was made of aluminum.

I've considered aluminum panels (but still powder coated for engineering reasons) to reduce shipping weight but the problem is that it'd increase the cost for everyone while only really saving shipping cost for international backers. But due to exchange rate and customs, international backers will be a minority regardless of shipping price so that's hard to justify.

And no one should feel guilty for not supporting Cerberus in favor of Necere's concepts in this thread, no SFF case can be everything to everyone and still be small so I completely understand if some people would rather pass on Cerberus in favor of a mATX NCASE design.

 

[Carisma]

Necere, have you thought about picking your top two favorites and having people vote on a strawpoll (for a week or two)? Or maybe put up all the options and have that voting go on for a week and the top two going into another strawpoll to be voted on for the final design?

Doing this would take the blame off y'all if people don't like it since it was voted on by the community.

 

[vipz]

Keep in mind the pics are of the prototype so it has the typical prototype flaws. As far as having the IO on the top vs the front, it's really preference. I like the clean front and I've heard from other people who really like it too and I've also heard from people who hate it, there's no making everyone happy

Besides the USB port openings, what else will the final version fix?

I don't have any issue with the power button's placement at the top personally. It's mostly the alignment and the audio jacks.

 

[Aibohphobia]

Besides the USB port openings, what else will the final version fix?

The audio jacks will be different and alignment will be better.

 

[vipz]

Good to hear. I would love to see at least a render when things are finalized. Hopefully the campaign will pick up steam when the reviews get published.

 

[Necere]

Cerberus' water-cooling options are not more limited than the M1s. Necere might correct me, but I can't think of a way how two GPUs and two 240mm radiators will fit in the M1. One GPU and two 240mm rads do work. And two GPUs and one 240mm rad also do work with the possibility of another 120mm rad, if the GPUs are short enough. But I didn't try that yet.

A single dual-GPU card (e.g., GTX 690, Titan Z) is about the only way to have two GPUs in the M1. Two cards is next to impossible; the handful of 2/3 slot sub-mATX boards that fit aren't likely to support SLI. So the Cerberus is definitely more capable in that regard.

Necere, have you thought about picking your top two favorites and having people vote on a strawpoll (for a week or two)? Or maybe put up all the options and have that voting go on for a week and the top two going into another strawpoll to be voted on for the final design?

Doing this would take the blame off y'all if people don't like it since it was voted on by the community.

Yeah, I may do that. At the moment I'm working on a new design based off the last couple pages of discussion, which I'll show when it's good enough. We'll see from there.

 

[yoyo0221]

Yeah, I may do that. At the moment I'm working on a new design based off the last couple pages of discussion, which I'll show when it's good enough. We'll see from there.

 

[einmannbude]

A single dual-GPU card (e.g., GTX 690, Titan Z) is about the only way to have two GPUs in the M1

I know, it has to be proven, but there are ITX boards that support PCIE bifurcation and there are PCIE splitter cables, that divide the 16 lanes in 2x 8 lanes, so using and ITX board with that splitter cable and mounting two single slot GPUs in the second and third slot of the M1 might work without too much of a hassle. The guys over here PCIE Bifurcation did some serious progress in the field.
There might even be room for a 120mm radiator next to the GPUs on the bottom of the case.

If the next generation of Nvidia cards has good single slot GPUs - and by that I mean with a single slot shield, because I will not desolder DVI connectors on the second slot - I will give that a try. Imagine two 970 successors or even 980 successors, if they get them on short PCBs, water-cooled in the M1.

 

[Necere]

Alright, just going to toss this out there to get some feedback:

• Dimensions: 360 x 180 x 410mm, 26.6L
• 5 slots
• CPU cooler height: 145mm-ish
• PSU length: 160-180mm
• Fans:
  • Front: 120mm
  • Bottom: 2x120/140mm
  • Top: 2x120mm or 1x140mm
  • Rear: 2x92mm
• Rad support:
  • Top: 240 x 30mm
  • Bottom: 240, trades space with PCI slots
  • Front: 120
• Cable management: ~10mm behind the motherboard tray, may include space for SSD mounting
• ODD support: vertically mounted slim slot load drive behind the front panel (as on the M1)

This is very much designed to be able to showcase a build, watercooled or otherwise, with the exterior done in the style of the M1. Major trade offs are the limited CPU cooler height and lack of 3.5" HDD support (which would be either/or with SLI/Crossfire). No renders yet, just want to get an idea of what people think.

 

[einmannbude]

I will comment the specs inline.

• Dimensions: 360 x 180 x 410mm, 26.6L

Larger than the Styx, but has better cooling options. Around 25L is at the top end of what I like, so I'm ok with it, but it shouldn't get larger. I'm still impressed of the barely 19L of the Cerberus, where still 2x 240mm radiators fit. Only possible with the PSU over the CPU, I know.

• 5 slots
• CPU cooler height: 145mm-ish
• PSU length: 160mm
• Fans:
  • Front: 120mm
  • Bottom: 2x120/140mm
  • Top: 2x120mm
  • Rear: 92mm

Nothing to complain about here.

• Rad support:
  • Top: 240 x 30mm
  • Bottom: 240, trades space with PCI slots
  • Front: 120

Like the rad support very much.

• Cable management: ~10mm behind the motherboard tray, may include space for SSD mounting

I like that, too.

• ODD support: vertically mounted slim slot load drive behind the front panel (as on the M1)

I like that, too. I have such a drive in my M1 right now. Still buying boxed versions of games from time to time.

What I don't like is the exterior. The front panel in particular. I don't know if it comes from the wish "just make the M1 taller", but the horizontally divided panels with the I/O in the middle do not work for me. Maybe combining the panels to one and making the cutout in the middle with right angles would help, but overall the exterior is not as stylish as the "half mac" you presented earlier.

If this design was coming to reality, I would buy the Styx instead and take the potential loss of cooling performance.

 

[Pat-Roner]

Alright, just going to toss this out there to get some feedback:

I feel this is a bit on the large side. for a mATX. I know you don't want to make less compromises this time around, but I feel some are ok. I think a lot of us likes the challenge - I know I do.

Dimensions: 360 x 180 x 410mm, 26.6L​

I would really love to see compatibility for the Cryorig H7 @ 145mm tall, so this is nice to see.

CPU cooler height: 145mm-ish
​

I would like to see more 140mm support.

Fans:
Front: 120mm
Bottom: 2x120/140mm
Top: 2x120mm
Rear: 92mm
​

With 140mm support in the top, you could have support for dual 140mm fans, or 240 rad, placed against the outward side, so that it could overhang the motherboard maybe? With double 240mm rads, I feel it isn't need for a 120rad in the front. So without that, you could lower the PSU so that you maybe can lower the case a bit.

Top: 240 x 30mm
Bottom: 240, trades space with PCI slots
Front: 120​

I'm sorry, but I agree with einmannbude on the design. Looks like a extended M1.

The designs I like the most are these where the first one is my absolute favorite.

Spoiler: Photos

 

[Phuncz]

I feel the design is a complete turn-off for me, as good as the internal design may be. As Pat already pointed out, there is only one that would make me doubt between buying food or a case when I would be starving, with the MacPro-styled one a close second.

 

[Necere]

Around 25L is at the top end of what I like, so I'm ok with it, but it shouldn't get larger. I'm still impressed of the barely 19L of the Cerberus, where still 2x 240mm radiators fit. Only possible with the PSU over the CPU, I know.

If you don't mind the PSU over the CPU, it's absolutely the most bang-for-buck way to go to save space. That's basically the only way you're going to get 2x240 rads with mATX under 20L. But for a lot of people, it's simply a dealbreaker.

I feel this is a bit on the large side. for a mATX. I know you don't want to make less compromises this time around, but I feel some are ok. I think a lot of us likes the challenge - I know I do.

It really isn't, though. It's just about the same size as the Fractal Design Core 1000, which most would consider a compact mATX case. And it already has compromises: limited CPU cooler and GPU height (the latter to about 145mm), and limited drive support.

Challenge is fine, but there's a difference between "challenge" and "impossible." As is, fitting 5x120mm rads in is already quite tight. I can't think of any commercial mATX cases that come close to this much rad capacity in so little volume.

I would like to see more 140mm support.

I left it off, but 1x140mm on top would be straightforward in place of the 2x120mm. 2x140mm might be possible, but it would be very tight and the details of the chassis construction make or break it.

With 140mm support in the top, you could have support for dual 140mm fans, or 240 rad, placed against the outward side, so that it could overhang the motherboard maybe?

A 240 rad overhanging the motherboard won't work without making the case significantly wider. The rad has to completely clear the motherboard height restriction zone, which is about the same height as the I/O shield. That means supporting an overhanging rad requires about the same space as supporting a rear 120mm fan.

The other issue I have with it is the top vents: since the rad would be offset so far to one side, the vents either have to be offset as well (which is ugly), expanded across most of the top panel (which is problematic for manufacturing), or left as-is, but partially obstructing the radiator fans.

With double 240mm rads, I feel it isn't need for a 120rad in the front. So without that, you could lower the PSU so that you maybe can lower the case a bit.

It's really the front-mounted ATX PSU and bottom rad support that drives the height, rather than the top or front rad support. The PSU needs enough room for modular connecters/cables between itself and a long GPU in the first slot, while the bottom rad already only fits with slim fans below SLI/Crossfired GPUs with single slot waterblocks in slots 1 and 3. Cutting the height would make dual 240s infeasible.

I'm sorry, but I agree with einmannbude on the design. Looks like a extended M1.

What I don't like is the exterior. The front panel in particular. I don't know if it comes from the wish "just make the M1 taller", but the horizontally divided panels with the I/O in the middle do not work for me. Maybe combining the panels to one and making the cutout in the middle with right angles would help, but overall the exterior is not as stylish as the "half mac" you presented earlier.

If this design was coming to reality, I would buy the Styx instead and take the potential loss of cooling performance.

I feel the design is a complete turn-off for me, as good as the internal design may be. As Pat already pointed out, there is only one that would make me doubt between buying food or a case when I would be starving, with the MacPro-styled one a close second.

That bad? People didn't seem to mind the split front design when I did it in my SG09 re-imagining. So many people have asked for an mATX M1, and yet when you try to make that work in a way that makes sense, no one likes it. Oh well, at least no one can say I didn't try.

 

[Necere]

One thing I neglected to mention with this concept is the possibility of configuring it in an air-only mode, with a solid top panel, dual 92mm exhaust fans at the rear, and a single 120mm fan at the front as intake (or possibly slim or regular 120/140mm fans on the bottom depending on GPU configuration):



Since there's no top vent, the PSU exhaust does have to travel through the case to the rear, but with no components at the top this isn't much of a concern.

 

[einmannbude]

So many people have asked for an mATX M1, and yet when you try to make that work in a way that makes sense, no one likes it.

For me the indented I/O of the M1 works, because it is at the bottom of the case. It doesn't look good in the middle of the front in my opinion. In addition I don't like the intake vents stopping in the middle. If they were strait up to the top, the PSU could be placed with the fan facing the front and would get fresh air, right?

 

[Necere]

For me the indented I/O of the M1 works, because it is at the bottom of the case. It doesn't look good in the middle of the front in my opinion. In addition I don't like the intake vents stopping in the middle. If they were strait up to the top, the PSU could be placed with the fan facing the front and would get fresh air, right?

Right, and the reason it's not like that now is because that's where the ODD sits. I could drop the ODD support and move the front I/O to the top panel, like the Cerberus or the previous concept have it. But putting it at the bottom like the M1 wouldn't work well here since it's a larger case, and therefore more likely to go on the floor, where a bottom I/O would be far from ideal.

 

[yoyo0221]

Right, and the reason it's not like that now is because that's where the ODD sits. I could drop the ODD support and move the front I/O to the top panel, like the Cerberus or the previous concept have it. But putting it at the bottom like the M1 wouldn't work well here since it's a larger case, and therefore more likely to go on the floor, where a bottom I/O would be far from ideal.

Dropping the ODD in my opinion is best. So little use for it nowadays and its cheap to just by an external drive and use it when needed. The I/O being in the middle does look out of place on this particular case.

Attempt at an M-style mATX:



With slim ODD slot:



385x400x195mm
Five slots
Full size CPU cooler (165mm)
Fits ATX motherboards per this post
2x140mm front fans
1x120mm exhaust


Opinions?

This...in mATX....minus the ODD slot and ATX PSU.....shorten the case and use SFX PSU in front. With 700SFX PSU's on the Horizon, we're sure to see at least 750W or even 800W in SFX. And its more than enough for SLI.

 

[Pat-Roner]

Necere Thanks for your reply. Thats why you do this, because you are playing with CAD and actually sees the way everything fits together.

I like that you also take air cooling in to account. Sure lots of people like water cooling, but If you want it quiet, air cooling is the way.(in my opinion, your milage may vary) I love the thick solid front case (you need to give this a name) and I really want to air cool in this with sound dampening everywhere.

And would really love to see support for at least 140mm in the front and dual in the bottom. That has to be feasible, right?
Especially since ATX psu is 138mm wide.

As for ODD, i really don't think theres any need for it. A decent usb ODD costs 20$. But here you could send out a survey.

As Phuncz said, theres only one case that I would buy in a heartbeat. It just looks so good and the front is so unique.
And I love the fact that the front shroud goes around the fans, so that noise has to travel further and it would respond so insanely good to sound dampening.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Alright, just going to toss this out there to get some feedback:

Jeeez mother. Probably the worst design I have seen from you, Necere.

a) Its an oversized M1, aesthetically.

b) Not really, because for some reason the facia is divided in two panels... which makes it look like the upper part opens as a door. But it doesn't. Complete brain-fuck to me.

I dislike it so much I wouldn't want it even if you brought it to my door house free of charge. Its just that horrid. Its like my NCASE M1 with an add-on on the bottom of the case to make it taller.

 

[Necere]

Jeeez mother. Probably the worst design I have seen from you, Necere.

a) Its an oversized M1, aesthetically.

b) Not really, because for some reason the facia is divided in two panels... which makes it look like the upper part opens as a door. But it doesn't. Complete brain-fuck to me.

I dislike it so much I wouldn't want it even if you brought it to my door house free of charge. Its just that horrid. Its like my NCASE M1 with an add-on on the bottom of the case to make it taller.

Do you feel the same way about the SG09 redesign I did? That got positive reactions at the time. Maybe it's just short-circuiting your expectations, since like you said, it looks like the M1 with an add-on at the bottom? I'm not sure why the upper part looks like a door to you, whereas the M1's front doesn't. And actually, I've heard someone else with the exact same complaint about the M1's front, so.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Do you feel the same way about the SG09 redesign I did? That got positive reactions at the time. Maybe it's just short-circuiting your expectations, since like you said, it looks like the M1 with an add-on at the bottom? I'm not sure why the upper part looks like a door to you, whereas the M1's front doesn't. And actually, I've heard someone else with the exact same complaint about the M1's front, so.

Yup, exactly the same.

The M1 doesn't look like a door to me because it doesn't look like a door What I'm saying is that there is nothing on the case that suggests it is a door. On the other hand, the minute you cut a front pannel in two requires, imo, that such cut has a functionality. And that feeling gets even more supported by the fact that you put the IO just at that middle cut. So... why would anybody cut the front pannel of the case without a functionality reason? I know I wouldn't, just as I would only put the IO in the top or bottom, never in the middle.

IMO, you should forget about the intherior design, and focus on the outside. The M1 sold because it is both aesthetically and functionality a marvel. And something you can't buy unless you buy it from you. So... can you do the same with mATX format? In that format there are tons of competition, and the price of such products is like 1/3. On the other hand there wasn't any competition to the M1 when it launched, and even nowadays it is second to none.

Which is why I still think that going smaller than the M1 is the way to go. 6 months ago everybody thought that the industry was going "steam-boxy" but... it wasn't. And we are still missing a good product on both design and function. Yes, it is true that we have the Sentry, a design that I truly like... BUT, I honestly prefer the Lian Li finishing over the industrial look that powder coating gives.

I don't know. Its your design, your company. But I can tell you that entering into a market with a product that costs 3x without having an "OMFG design" is suicide. Function-wise everything has been invented already in the mATX format, which is why I'm talking about design. Instead, the mITX segment is a newborn, yet. Heck, when did the M1 launch? Since then, how many products are doing more or less the same at more or less the same size? I fail to recognize any, actually. On the other hand, the mATX market is full of very efficient designs... like the TJ08-E that I love so much. I'd say that on mATX you have everything you would ever want.

Yes, I know, I truly want a steam-boxy case. Problem is... somebody has yet to release a decent design with all-alu construction. I'm sure the design you prototyped would work with a bit more work. I'm 100% convinced.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Cmon, the baby only needed some extra love... Heck you did even name it. A detail I failed to see back in the day

Heck that is prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrretty. Verrrrry prrrrrrrrrrrretty. Even thought the top panel is just so-so, but the overall is veerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryy prrrrrrrrrretty.

 

[Necere]

Yup, exactly the same.

So it's probably safe to say that some people might like this design then, just as they liked the SG09 redesign.

The M1 doesn't look like a door to me because it doesn't look like a door What I'm saying is that there is nothing on the case that suggests it is a door. On the other hand, the minute you cut a front pannel in two requires, imo, that such cut has a functionality. And that feeling gets even more supported by the fact that you put the IO just at that middle cut. So... why would anybody cut the front pannel of the case without a functionality reason? I know I wouldn't, just as I would only put the IO in the top or bottom, never in the middle.

It's not arbitrary: the bottom section covers the front 120mm fan intake, while the top houses the ODD (and potentially SSDs). The front I/O divides the two, and both covers would be removable, much like they are on the M1. If you need to access the front filter for cleaning, there's no reason to expose the upper drive section, and vice versa.

IMO, you should forget about the intherior design, and focus on the outside. The M1 sold because it is both aesthetically and functionality a marvel.

But the M1's exterior design is dictated largely by the interior design, as well. Do you think the front I/O placement on the M1 was purely an arbitrary, aesthetic decision? No - it's there because that's one of the only places where it would fit. If I had "forgotten about" the M1's interior design, do you think it would be anywhere as good as it is? Of course not. I design holistically - neither aesthetics nor functionality is considered in isolation.

Yes, I know, I truly want a steam-boxy case. Problem is... somebody has yet to release a decent design with all-alu construction. I'm sure the design you prototyped would work with a bit more work. I'm 100% convinced.

[...]Heck that is prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrretty. Verrrrry prrrrrrrrrrrretty. Even thought the top panel is just so-so, but the overall is veerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryy prrrrrrrrrretty.

I guess I don't have the same warm feelings about the design of the LRPC as you do, and when the thermal concept failed to perform well, I moved on from it.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

So it's probably safe to say that some people might like this design then, just as they liked the SG09 redesign.

Of course. But I doubt people would like it at $300 or more. Or enough to buy it, at least. IMO, the TJ08-E looks much better, and costs sub-$100. Yes, its a taaad bigger. But only a tad.

It's not arbitrary: the bottom section covers the front 120mm fan intake, while the top houses the ODD (and potentially SSDs). The front I/O divides the two, and both covers would be removable, much like they are on the M1. If you need to access the front filter for cleaning, there's no reason to expose the upper drive section, and vice versa.

But it is arbitrary because you do not need to access only one of those parts while restricting the other, as the panel itself isn't too big. With that said, I do know that a single panel with such a hole (for the I/O) in the middle would be terribly weak or would have to be reinforced. And both are a no-no for something that, at the end of the day, requires handling both to carry it around and to install and uninstall the shit we put in it. But still, it just looks out of place. Just as the I/O placement.

But the M1's exterior design is dictated largely by the interior design, as well. Do you think the front I/O placement on the M1 was purely an arbitrary, aesthetic decision? No - it's there because that's one of the only places where it would fit. If I had "forgotten about" the M1's interior design, do you think it would be anywhere as good as it is? Of course not. I design holistically - neither aesthetics nor functionality is considered in isolation.

I wouldn't own a V1 If I didn't agree with you. But you can't consider that the mITX and the mATX segments are similar, because they aren't. That is why although I know, and I recognise, that the success of the M1 is based on both the aesthetics and the functionality being top notch you do not need to apply the same principle on the mATX. Why? Simply look at the alternatives:

a-Do we have any other case at 12L that can accept as much hardware as the M1 can? Nope. And the M1 was released some time ago. I'm curious, though I will understand if you don't want to share this with me: M1 sells are increasing? I mean, V4 sold more than V3, and V3 more than V2 and...? Or not?
b-Do we have any other case at similar stunning looks that can accept as much hardware as the M1 can? Maybe, at twice the size?
c-Is there any other real alternative to the M1 once you add a) + b)? Well, unless you are budget strained... nope, there isn't.

The mITX segment is considered a gimmick by most manufacturers, which is the reason we still do not have many options available, and which is why you are still selling M1's. The fact that you are on the V4? of the case should be easy enough to analyze why you succeeded. And, for the same reason, why you are most likely to fail if you try mATX.

But lets go through it.

a-Do we have any mATX case out there with efficient designs? We do. The TJ08-E from Silverstone is one of those. To me, it also looks terribly well, sans the stupid filter on top.
b-Do we have any mATX case that looks stunning? Yes... we have a lot of them.
c-Is there any chance a product you sell at 2 or 3 times the price of any of the good products we already have at mATX will be a business success? I wouldn't be my money on it, unless you make a GOD of a design. And I'm talking aesthetically. You will not innovate function-wise in mATX because everybody is doing everything. And you can't compete at price. So... aesthetics is the only thing left. But at triple the price? Yes, the design needs to be a god-damn-perfection. Which is why I state that you should start from the outside and then move to the inside... because this segment is different than mITX, and you will not succeed if you try the same approach as before.

I guess I don't have the same warm feelings about the design of the LRPC as you do, and when the thermal concept failed to perform well, I moved on from it.

I just love the design that much. Something tells me that it can be fixed, and don't tell me you don't have some way of fixing it without having to start from scrap. I know that prototyping ain't cheap... but you could run a crowdfunding campaign for it. I know, I know that I'm a pain in the ass, and that I've stated my pov countless times... I'm just wishing one day I'll be able to buy a "NCASE S1", even though its a product that I do not need because I already have 5 computer cases I home whilst only owning two computers. I believe in "vote with your wallet", and I can tell you that I would rather pay for a "malfunctioning" S1 than for the "looks like it has a door" mATX case. Something tells me, also, that I'm not alone in this

 

[Necere]

Of course. But I doubt people would like it at $300 or more. Or enough to buy it, at least. IMO, the TJ08-E looks much better, and costs sub-$100. Yes, its a taaad bigger. But only a tad.

Honestly, I'm not sure we can be viable at $300 regardless of how appealing the design might be. But you're right - it will need to be something special to succeed, since there's no way we'll compete on price with cases like the TJ08-E at <$120. It needs to be good enough to justify the premium. I don't quite share your fondness for the TJ08-E btw - it's one of Silverstone's better looking mATX cases, but some of the details kill it for me.

I'm curious, though I will understand if you don't want to share this with me: M1 sells are increasing? I mean, V4 sold more than V3, and V3 more than V2 and...? Or not?

Demand rises and falls, though according to what exactly I'm not sure. There is probably a seasonal aspect to it.

We've actually ordered the same number of cases for every single production run so far, so the sales of each have been basically identical as far as numbers. Rather, it's about how fast each sells out, and in that regard V5 (the last run) did pretty well.

I just love the design that much. Something tells me that it can be fixed, and don't tell me you don't have some way of fixing it without having to start from scrap.

What I would do to fix the LRPC, basically, is to move the GPU over to allow for 2x120mm fans on the side next to it, like the RVZ01 and Node 202 (closer in size to the latter). That does require a considerable restructuring of the chassis, though, and re-figuring out things like drive mounting. I'm not sure how much I can really re-use from the current design, but either way it'll be an undertaking.

As far as mATX, this design seems to be popular, at least with a few people, and I think I'd be happy with it, too, if that's the way we decide to go. Won't be the smallest case, or the best at watercooling, but it has its own appeal as a minimalist + quiet case, I think.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Honestly, I'm not sure we can be viable at $300 regardless of how appealing the design might be. But you're right - it will need to be something special to succeed, since there's no way we'll compete on price with cases like the TJ08-E at <$120. It needs to be good enough to justify the premium. I don't quite share your fondness for the TJ08-E btw - it's one of Silverstone's better looking mATX cases, but some of the details kill it for me.

Silverstone cases are very "raw" in the sense that they lack a lot of details that are required by todays standards. But still I find the TJ08-E both inside and outisde to be well above average. Its probably one of the only mATX cases I'd consider to put on my desktop.

Demand rises and falls, though according to what exactly I'm not sure. There is probably a seasonal aspect to it.

We've actually ordered the same number of cases for every single production run so far, so the sales of each have been basically identical as far as numbers. Rather, it's about how fast each sells out, and in that regard V5 (the last run) did pretty well.

Good to know then. I hope you make as much profit as possible so you can continue doing more products

What I would do to fix the LRPC, basically, is to move the GPU over to allow for 2x120mm fans on the side next to it, like the RVZ01 and Node 202 (closer in size to the latter). That does require a considerable restructuring of the chassis, though, and re-figuring out things like drive mounting. I'm not sure how much I can really re-use from the current design, but either way it'll be an undertaking.

Couldn't you place the SSD's above the gpu? According to the specs I checked a 2.5" SSD measures ~7 cm wide. And the case is wider than that, at 8,4cm. So even accounting for 3 or 4mm panels, there should be enough space. Regarding gpu clearance, there appears to be at least 4 cm above the gpu, so space shouldn't be a problem. Yes, you could probably only fit two drives but, with the raise of the use of M.2, such option should be plenty. And then you could move the gpu and install the fans needed in the chamber.

As far as mATX, this design seems to be popular, at least with a few people, and I think I'd be happy with it, too, if that's the way we decide to go. Won't be the smallest case, or the best at watercooling, but it has its own appeal as a minimalist + quiet case, I think.

This design isn't my personal cup of tea but I do not see anything inherently wrong with it. Any idea of the price of the thing? More or less?

 

[Phuncz]

As far as mATX, this design seems to be popular, at least with a few people, and I think I'd be happy with it, too, if that's the way we decide to go. Won't be the smallest case, or the best at watercooling, but it has its own appeal as a minimalist + quiet case, I think.

It's mainly an interesting design, that it provokes thought ("why is that gap there"). While it won't be the best case in any specific aspect, it seems to still be a very good internal design with a unique and interesting yet timeless outer design.

But many good things about the Ncase M1 are about a lot of details that you've done right in the long run. With a larger case, you might be able to go berserk on innovative ideas and flexibility through innovation even more. Like the infinite vents for the Kimera Cerberus: it's something that wasn't planned or thought of in most of the design process, but it's one of the more distinct features.

 

[themodernagenb]

Alright, just going to toss this out there to get some feedback:

• Dimensions: 360 x 180 x 410mm, 26.6L
• 5 slots
• CPU cooler height: 145mm-ish
• PSU length: 160-180mm
• Fans:
  • Front: 120mm
  • Bottom: 2x120/140mm
  • Top: 2x120mm or 1x140mm
  • Rear: 2x92mm
• Rad support:
  • Top: 240 x 30mm
  • Bottom: 240, trades space with PCI slots
  • Front: 120
• Cable management: ~10mm behind the motherboard tray, may include space for SSD mounting
• ODD support: vertically mounted slim slot load drive behind the front panel (as on the M1)

This is very much designed to be able to showcase a build, watercooled or otherwise, with the exterior done in the style of the M1. Major trade offs are the limited CPU cooler height and lack of 3.5" HDD support (which would be either/or with SLI/Crossfire). No renders yet, just want to get an idea of what people think.

I don't mind the design. But I still would like the I/O on the top rather than just the middle. I find it harder to find those buttons in less than ideal lighting. If it's on the front top, then it's super easy to find the power button.

How does the PSU get air?

Also, I like the M1 case feet design better than these. Otherwise, I think it's a good design.

 

[knupauger]

Alright, just going to toss this out there to get some feedback:

I don't like the design either, and I'm a fan of your SG09 redesign. I think the SG09 redesign worked because it was smaller and probably also because the SG09/SG10 is so damn ugly and everything was better than the original Silverstone design (with that weird and ugly side panel construction). Also, the ODD-mount is fine for an ITX-case but not for an mATX-design.

Like Yolo55 I favor your M-style design from Oct 14. A clean layout without air vents everywhere (especially not at the top) that combines characteristic elements of the M1. I think that should be general direction for you.

As for how to make it special: I would try to get as close to the SFF-territory as possible. The market is full with cases that add a few centimeters here and there because some people might want to use an oversize GPU or up three radiators. The result are cases that try to please everyone but aren't really compact and not special anymore. Your specialty should be small and clever designs that might have some restrictions, but allow people to build high-end performance PCs in a small volume.

Here is what I would do:
- Keep the M-style design language. It's your brand and it speaks to all people want an mATX M1.
- Your base design should favor SFX-PSUs. Yes, there aren't many good SFX-PSUs available and yes, some multi-GPU setups might be problematic. But SFX-PSUs are becoming better, and with a design that favors SFX-PSUs you can do 'special' things. Maybe wait for what users and reviewers have to say about the new SFX-PSUs from Corsair. If these are a hit, you can happily move forward with an SFX-based design. ATX-PSUs could still be an option (with some trade-offs).
- Keep in mind that many people want an mATX-build not because they want to run a multi-GPU setup but because they want to use a dedicated soundcard or other extensions or they want to build a small X99-system. So maybe don't design the case with possible Multi-GPU support in mind.
- Make up your mind about the cooling setup you want to offer. AiO water-cooler, custom loop or air cooling? Pick one and design the case for that setup, but don't try to design a case that can do all of that. That's what Phanteks is doing already at a much lower price point.
- Don't design your case for abnormally large GPUs like the ASUS DirectCU coolers. Yes, many people want them, but honestly: Screw them! There are enough performance cards that are not longer than 300mm, and 'normal width' cards from EVGA or Sapphire work just as well if not better and allow smaller cases with better airflow. No need to go full width and full length.
- Personally I would prefer a case with a clean airflow that doesn't require many fans and that doesn't have air vents everywhere. The sweet spot would probably be a design that has two front mounts for fans or a 240mm radiator, and that is wide enough for a160mm tower cooler.

 

[Pat-Roner]

What is it people like with the SG09?

I really can't find a single thing I like with that case.

 

[Necere]

Silverstone cases are very "raw" in the sense that they lack a lot of details that are required by todays standards. But still I find the TJ08-E both inside and outisde to be well above average. Its probably one of the only mATX cases I'd consider to put on my desktop.

Just as an example, I can't stand the exposed 3.5" bay on the front. It's just so out of place, like it was thrown in as an afterthought.

Couldn't you place the SSD's above the gpu?

No, it doesn't make any sense to do that. GPUs, especially open cooler cards, vent a lot of exhaust laterally, so the drives would be not just blocking the exhaust, but being actively heated by it. Terrible idea. Also that space above the GPU is there partly to allow for taller cards, so it's not necessarily going to just be empty space.

This design isn't my personal cup of tea but I do not see anything inherently wrong with it. Any idea of the price of the thing? More or less?

No idea at this point really.

How does the PSU get air?

From inside the case, and exhausts through the top.

Also, I like the M1 case feet design better than these. Otherwise, I think it's a good design.

This needs to have more ground clearance than the M1, which means taller feet. I think round feet over 12mm or so start to look too tall, which is why I went with this design. Also these aren't solid feet, but form from sheet metal, and they provide a small amount of internal space. The AC inlet on the rear actually partly sits in this space.

- Don't design your case for abnormally large GPUs like the ASUS DirectCU coolers. Yes, many people want them, but honestly: Screw them! There are enough performance cards that are not longer than 300mm, and 'normal width' cards from EVGA or Sapphire work just as well if not better and allow smaller cases with better airflow. No need to go full width and full length.
- Personally I would prefer a case with a clean airflow that doesn't require many fans and that doesn't have air vents everywhere. The sweet spot would probably be a design that has two front mounts for fans or a 240mm radiator, and that is wide enough for a160mm tower cooler.

Unless you're using a using the space next to the GPUs for something, supporting 160mm tall CPU coolers automatically gets you tall GPU support. The support GPU height is about 4mm taller than the supported CPU cooler height.

What is it people like with the SG09?

It's the smallest mATX case that supports full size CPU coolers and GPUs, and has the cooling capability to deal with high end hardware.

 

[Necere]

Alright, I did a few renders just to put this concept on even footing with the rest. It's easy to become blind to your own work when you're absorbed in it, so it helps to get outside opinions. It's fine if people don't like it.

 

[knupauger]

Unless you're using a using the space next to the GPUs for something, supporting 160mm tall CPU coolers automatically gets you tall GPU support. The support GPU height is about 4mm taller than the supported CPU cooler height.

Right. Well, it's not a bad thing to support ulta-wide cards if it comes naturally from the design anyway.

Anway, your recent design looks better in the renders than in the concept. It's not bad actually, but I still have the feeling that something weird is going on with the frontpanel. As if two different two panels were put together against their will. I still prefer the M-style variant from Oct 14 where the front I/O was at the top. And like I said above I'm not happy with the position off the ODD. Was okay for the much smaller M1. Not okay for this format. I would rather not have an ODD option in this case.

I'm also not a fan of the top vents. They were acceptable for the M1 because they allowed a unique and compact layout, but perforated surface becomes too large in mATX. I would prefer a solid top panel that plays no role for the airflow.

Many moons and pages ago you were talking about keeping the design simple and going back to a more traditional apprach with a simple front-to-back airflow with just three fans and ventilation in the side or top panel. I think you had the right idea there. The result would be a clean layout with a positive pressure airflow, fantastic air cooling and quiet operation. Maybe even go full back-to-roots and put the PSU above the mainbord.

I'd also like to see what you could with an SFX-PSU in your above design. Could it fit at the bottom or the of the case between the mainboard and the front panel with the fan facing to the bottom and rotated by 90° degrees with the cables facing to the right side panel? Would that allow two 120mm in the front or maybe even a 240mm radiator? Does PSU even need a fresh air intake and direct exahaust these days, or could that airflow in the case be enough to remove the waste heat from the PSU?

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Just as an example, I can't stand the exposed 3.5" bay on the front. It's just so out of place, like it was thrown in as an afterthought.

Agreed. But you have to give the TJ08-E some credit: 3.5" were still in use when the case was released, and they haven't updated even once.

No, it doesn't make any sense to do that. GPUs, especially open cooler cards, vent a lot of exhaust laterally, so the drives would be not just blocking the exhaust, but being actively heated by it. Terrible idea. Also that space above the GPU is there partly to allow for taller cards, so it's not necessarily going to just be empty space.

Well, for the record, my hard drives on the M1 are also on top of an open cooler VGA (and a very hot one at that, since its a 290X overclocked) and my temps on them aren't bad considering that I have no intake on the case (except for a 120mm on the Corsair H50 that is in no way directing air to the drives). I think its pretty safe to say that if you move the gpu a bit and put some fans in front of it, the resulting air will not cook the drives at all, no matter if they are on top of the gpu or not. It should easily work. And yes, you might limit the height of the card but... who cares? We are talking about a sub 10L case. If you can't put the biggest gpu ever created its understandable. But still, the moment you force-induct air into the case, it will find its way out without a problem.

 

[Necere]

Many moons and pages ago you were talking about keeping the design simple and going back to a more traditional apprach with a simple front-to-back airflow with just three fans and ventilation in the side or top panel. I think you had the right idea there. The result would be a clean layout with a positive pressure airflow, fantastic air cooling and quiet operation. Maybe even go full back-to-roots and put the PSU above the mainbord.

Well, if you look back to the previous page, you'll see how the train of discussion that spawned this concept started: an extended M1 was asked about, and the front-mounted PSU that goes with that layout. Of course to do that basically requires changing the airflow to a primarily bottom-top scheme, since the front-mounted PSU blocks a lot of the intake.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still mostly in favor of the front-back airflow layouts, but I still think it's worthwhile to explore the other options. If for nothing else, to show people that these weren't rejected out of hand.

I'd also like to see what you could with an SFX-PSU in your above design. Could it fit at the bottom or the of the case between the mainboard and the front panel with the fan facing to the bottom and rotated by 90° degrees with the cables facing to the right side panel? Would that allow two 120mm in the front or maybe even a 240mm radiator?

Having the PSU like that would block long GPUs in the bottom three slots unless the motherboard is flipped, but otherwise it could work as you suggest.

Does PSU even need a fresh air intake and direct exahaust these days, or could that airflow in the case be enough to remove the waste heat from the PSU?

Not necessarily. Consider the highest power SFX available right now is 600W - even running at 100% utilization they're ~90% efficient, ao maybe 60W of heat added to the case. Not nothing, certainly, but a lot less than a second GPU adds to the case. Ideally, of course you want components' waste heat not to affect eachother. Practically, at least in some scenarios, it's not the end of the world if they do.

Well, for the record, my hard drives on the M1 are also on top of an open cooler VGA (and a very hot one at that, since its a 290X overclocked) and my temps on them aren't bad considering that I have no intake on the case (except for a 120mm on the Corsair H50 that is in no way directing air to the drives).

On top? Do you have your drives mounted in some non-standard way in the M1? Do you have actual temperatures on the drives? I'd be curious to know what they are.

There are honestly much better places to put the drives in the hypothetical revised LRPC we're talking about. The Node 202, for example, has them between the GPU and PSU, towards the front of the case.

 

[knupauger]

I'll wait for this thread to reach the next plot twist then
Can't wait too long though, so hurry up!

As you can tell I'm not a huge fan of that 'mATXed' M1-design. That layout did wonders for the M1 and the much smaller form-factor. In mATX however I see a lot of wasted space and weird configuration of components. I could probably agree with the design if it was an actual 'mATXed M1' with an SFX-PSU in the same spot as in the M1, side panel radiator mount with the necessary vents and two intake fans in the front. The resulting design would probably become too narrow for its depth and height though.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

On top? Do you have your drives mounted in some non-standard way in the M1? Do you have actual temperatures on the drives? I'd be curious to know what they are.

I have the drive on the side bracket. One of the spaces is used for a 120mm fan + cpu radiator (its a Corsair H50), and the other holds only a single 3.5" HDD). Which means that it swallows all the hot air that comes from the 290X, since the air can't go anywhere else. And I do not have any sort of fan for the hdd because i didn't have enough space. So, it is on its own.

Idle temperatures (room temperature since I just started the computer)

Load temperatures (after playing Fallout 4. I have a pretty aggressive fan profile for the gpu).

The problem you encountered on the NCASE S1 is exactly the same I encountered on the FT03. Picture to display why:

HDD do not need lots of airflow... they simply need not to be enclosed anywhere that can trap heat. In this case, the FT03 is fine unless you run a power-hog... and I did. With the GTX295, and even though I had several fans, you simply would heat up the case, and then, the case would heat up the hdd's, and there was nothing to solve such a problem because the hdd's had no active ventilation of any sorts. Even more, hot air couldn't even raise or go anywhere. It simply got trapped there. In the end I sold the case because, to me, it was unacceptable. And also, the case was a mess in all aspects. But that is another story...

So, the hdd problem can be solved by working around two solutions

a) You put them far away from heat sources. And if you do, nothing else needs to be considered.

b) If you want to put them close to heat sources, hdd's require some sort of ventilation.

For reference, I used to have some HDD lying around my desktop, but plugged in (since I have an open air bench-table), without any ventilation of any sort, and their temperatures NEVER went 5-7º C above room temperature. So, on their own, they do not create enough heat to cook themselves. Which is why it is unneeded to actively cool them unless you severely stack them and/or they are close to heat sources.

With that said, I believe there is a simple solution for the S1, which is simply to find another place to install the drives. As of today, seeing that M.2 drives are getting more and more common... even a single 1x 2.5hdd should be more than enough for most. Still, the problem you have on the S1 is exactly the same on the FT03: even though little heat gets into the hdd bay... how do you dissipate? You can't. And little by little you heat up the drives. Even if its only 10W that is leaking inside.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

There are honestly much better places to put the drives in the hypothetical revised LRPC we're talking about. The Node 202, for example, has them between the GPU and PSU, towards the front of the case.

Somehow I missed this part.

I'm not totally convinced you wouldn't cook the drives in such a position. I think I might even get the Node 202 in a not too distant future. Somehow I had the wrong idea about the thing, and thought it was much bigger than it is. So for a little experimenting it shouldn't be too big of a problem.

 

[updawg]

Alright, I did a few renders just to put this concept on even footing with the rest. It's easy to become blind to your own work when you're absorbed in it, so it helps to get outside opinions. It's fine if people don't like it.

To me this looks like the Ncase M1 is placed on top of an expansion case, similar to the Coolermaster HAF Stacker (obviously the Ncase looks way better). I would honestly wait with a mATX design until we see what Pascal brings. If we can power a SLI/Crossfire system off a SFX PSU and the new GPU lengths are much shorter - a case will need to be created to fill that gap. It would be nice to see a case design be at the bleeding edge rather than another drop in the bucket.

 

[Pat-Roner]

I have the drive on the side bracket. One of the spaces is used for a 120mm fan + cpu radiator (its a Corsair H50), and the other holds only a single 3.5" HDD). Which means that it swallows all the hot air that comes from the 290X, since the air can't go anywhere else. And I do not have any sort of fan for the hdd because i didn't have enough space. So, it is on its own.

Idle temperatures (room temperature since I just started the computer)

Load temperatures (after playing Fallout 4. I have a pretty aggressive fan profile for the gpu).

The problem you encountered on the NCASE S1 is exactly the same I encountered on the FT03. Picture to display why:

HDD do not need lots of airflow... they simply need not to be enclosed anywhere that can trap heat. In this case, the FT03 is fine unless you run a power-hog... and I did. With the GTX295, and even though I had several fans, you simply would heat up the case, and then, the case would heat up the hdd's, and there was nothing to solve such a problem because the hdd's had no active ventilation of any sorts. Even more, hot air couldn't even raise or go anywhere. It simply got trapped there. In the end I sold the case because, to me, it was unacceptable. And also, the case was a mess in all aspects. But that is another story...

So, the hdd problem can be solved by working around two solutions

a) You put them far away from heat sources. And if you do, nothing else needs to be considered.

b) If you want to put them close to heat sources, hdd's require some sort of ventilation.

For reference, I used to have some HDD lying around my desktop, but plugged in (since I have an open air bench-table), without any ventilation of any sort, and their temperatures NEVER went 5-7º C above room temperature. So, on their own, they do not create enough heat to cook themselves. Which is why it is unneeded to actively cool them unless you severely stack them and/or they are close to heat sources.

With that said, I believe there is a simple solution for the S1, which is simply to find another place to install the drives. As of today, seeing that M.2 drives are getting more and more common... even a single 1x 2.5hdd should be more than enough for most. Still, the problem you have on the S1 is exactly the same on the FT03: even though little heat gets into the hdd bay... how do you dissipate? You can't. And little by little you heat up the drives. Even if its only 10W that is leaking inside.

Well, that's pretty decent load temps. My 3.5" and ssd mounted in the same position is roughly at 50c in desktop and 60c under gaming.