Before asking NCASE about Micro-ATX...

Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by wahaha360, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. darksable

    darksable Limp Gawd

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    The rounded one is absolutely gorgeous!

    But why so big? Seems like mATX could fill those needs just fine, yeah? I'd rather be limited to using a slim radiator but get a smaller case for it; SFF is expected to come with a couple trade-offs here and there.
     
  2. arg

    arg n00b

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    Hi Necere,
    I like both, but #1 is more stylish and fresh.

    What kind of airflow layout is planning? If intake via rads (positive), so it should be pretty hot for parts inside. If negative, so is 92mm fan enough? What's happened in case of use M1 outside reservoir?
    Could you please consider placement of DP/HDMI pass-through for VR on USB/audio panel? VR would be reasonable on SLI water cooled builds.
     
  3. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    I think you might need to recalibrate your scale.

    24L is large-ish for mini-ITX. 24L is not even close to being large for microATX, let alone ATX. Most mainstream mATX cases are 40L+, and ATX midtowers are 50L+. 24L is on par with the most compact mainstream mATX cases available (e.g., the Silverstone SG09).

    The reasons for making it ATX instead of mATX are: 1) it uses the space for water cooling and/or PSU anyway, so the ATX support is practically free; 2) microATX is being neglected by motherboard manufacturers lately, with most new enthusiast boards either ATX or mini-ITX.

    For the size it is, the water cooling support (280+240) is without equal. You have to go up to 40L or so to find another case that can manage that.

    Front intake via 2x140mm fans, top and rear exhaust. A front rad will push warm air into the case, sure, but there's plenty of exhaust on the top to pull it out.

    M1 Frozen Q res support and front HDMI are both possibilities.
     
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  4. Nanook

    Nanook Limp Gawd

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    do you plan on having mITX mounting in there anyways?
     
  5. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Mini-ITX is just a subset of ATX, as is microATX. Any case that supports a larger form factor also supports the smaller form factor(s) by default.
     
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  6. Carisma

    Carisma [H]Lite

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    That mATX/ATX case looks amazing. Version 2 screams more NCASE to me but the lines on the first one are great.
     
  7. vipz

    vipz Gawd

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    I'm already sold on the layout/size, but neither design really speaks to me. I find #2 particularly awkward, that front just doesn't do it for me.
     
  8. Aluminyum

    Aluminyum Guest

    I prefer the second one. Not only due to its similarity to the M1, but also because the front panel seems much more filter-friendly.
     
  9. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    Necere

    See majority of comments inline (yellow text) with quote...


    This could be a sweet fully water cooled Threadripper / dual GPU chassis...

    Would probably want to go for a high wattage SFX-L PSU for that though...!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  10. ceski

    ceski [H]Lite

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    #1 No strong opinion.
    #2 I'd like to see this with a solid front and ventilation along the side and/or bottom edges of the front panel, assuming this doesn't reduce air flow too dramatically. You've done mockups before like this, and the Cerebus case does it too but with the edges mostly cut out for ventilation.
     
  11. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    They're about the same, actually. The filter would go inside, on the chassis, and not directly on the front panel. There's a 13mm gap between the front panel and the chassis.

    1. I want to have some space behind the motherboard tray for cables, but currently it isn't quite enough for SSDs.
    2. 320x45mm rad will fit in front with GPUs up to about 275mm long.
    3. I've got about 95mm from the inside of the top of the chassis to a card in the 3rd/4th slot (closest to CPU being #1), so 63mm for a rad+fans there isn't a problem. ATX boards often move the first PCIe slot one down (or up, in this case) though, so you want that extra space.
    4. PSU over the motherboard takes the place of the rear 92mm fan, yes.
    5. The main limitation is that the fittings on the front rad can't be at the top when you also have a top rad, or they run into eachother. Length of the top rad also limits thickness of the front rad.
    6. I don't see a D5+res fitting between a top rad and GPU, especially if you're running dual cards. It'd have to go on the bottom, in front of the motherboard. This might limit RAM height as well.
    7. IMO front I/O makes less sense in this design vs. the M1, since as a larger/taller case it's more likely you'd have it sitting on the floor.

    Would need to increase the depth by ~20mm to allow for adequate airflow with that style front panel.
     
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  12. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    1 - Regarding cable run behind MB, seems like with PSU in front of MB, tha main cable runs (MB / EPS / GPUs) would go straight from PSU to components; but the fan cables & pump cables could be routed behind the MB tray...

    2 - I would think a pair of reference cards (just under 270mm...?) would be used here...

    3 - Yes, extra space for proper exhaust thru radiator / fans...

    4 - No problem...

    5 - With highlighted (red type) above, would the radiator dimensions I stated earlier work...?

    6 - Rough dimensions on a reservoir / pump combo (EK-XRES 100 Revo D5 PWM) would be 160mm x 90mm x 90mm (H x W x D), might this fit...?

    7 - Fair point...

    Thanks for the reply...!
     
  13. OmenemO

    OmenemO Limp Gawd

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    I prefer #2. Would there be a gap in the base allowing us to insert and remove a filter easily or would this require removing the entire radiator to access the filter?
     
  14. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    5. There's a bit of variation with how long the radiator end tanks are, but almost certainly. Right now I have 361mm from the inside front to inside rear, though do note that you may not be able to back the top rad 100% to the rear. Still, your proposed setup needs 350mm total, so it should fit.
    6. Again, there's enough room on the floor of the case towards the front, the only potential issues being RAM height and routing the tubing.

    Neither. In both designs the front panel would be removable to access the filter. That's the purpose of the M1-style cutout at the bottom of the front panel on #2 (haven't quite worked out what to do on #1 for that).
     
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  15. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    Forgot this one...

    If PSU in front of MB, intake is drawing from inside the chassis, or..?
     
  16. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Yeah, it would need to. No side vents.
     
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  17. OmenemO

    OmenemO Limp Gawd

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    Please somehow make this happen! I've been waiting for a good microATX build like this for years.
     
  18. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    A few more renders of the M style:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Adjusted the front panel angles to be more acute on these - from 10 degrees to 15.
     
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  19. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

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    Good god thats awesome. Its the only case I'd ever want to use other than my m1
     
  20. rfarmer

    rfarmer [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah that is one sexy case, I like the way you have the cutout at the bottom reminiscent of the M1 IO opening. Please tell me you are going to make this. ;)
     
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  21. acquacow

    acquacow Limp Gawd

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    Totally in for 24L ATX. I'm at 39L now and haven't found anything much smaller that is actually usable.
     
  22. Tyki

    Tyki [H]Lite

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    Looks amazing! Maybe I'd raise it a little bit if bottom fans are a thing, but besides that I'm happy!
     
  23. Aluminyum

    Aluminyum Guest

    Oh, I see. By the way, is there going to be a side bracket (to mount extra accessories)?
     
  24. darksable

    darksable Limp Gawd

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    Heh, okay, yeah, you might have a point there. :p

    Interesting point about mATX being neglected; I hadn't thought about it, but you're absolutely right. (What a shame, though; I, for one, was hoping for an industry trend towards smaller and smaller form factors becoming the new standard.)
     
  25. Findecanor

    Findecanor Guest

    I was excited until I saw the depth of it and the top-mounted ports.
    If the box is designed for placement under the desk anyway then I don't see the point of optimising certain dimensions for size, limiting to SFX power supply etc.
     
  26. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    No fans on the bottom, so no need for extra clearance. That was one of the reasons for making it inverted ATX, as it allows for fans/radiators that overlap the motherboard, without the extra intake clearance needed if they were at the bottom.

    No side bracket. The top and front of the chassis provide flexible mounting for components instead.

    In a way that's happening, with the growth of mini-ITX, SFX power supplies, m.2 drives, etc. But it's more like a bifurcation of the market into size optimized, on the one hand, and performance optimized on the other. If people care about size at all, then smaller is almost always better. Whereas if they don't care about size at all, then ATX offers more performance, options, and ease of building. MicroATX is an awkward in-between, that's now being relegated primarily to low end boards for budget builds.

    Desktop placement is far from the only reason someone would want a smaller case. Ease of transport and being relatively less obtrusive are some obvious reasons.

    The depth is to allow for front mounted fans, as well as dual radiator support.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  27. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    WIP intererior pic:

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. ceski

    ceski [H]Lite

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    Additional speculation: motherboard manufacturers are swamped with the unprecedented number of platform launches in such a short window (in under a year: Kaby Lake, Ryzen, Intel HEDT, AMD HEDT, Coffee Lake) and that's why there's a lot of missing premium and other niche offerings this year. Source
     
  29. backfeed

    backfeed Limp Gawd

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    I had a Silverstone Temjin TJ08B-E with the inverted layout before (which was replaced by an M1), and while it was pretty nice it was also a bit impractical in the top, where the psu was placed on a shelf and was intended to pull air through a bad-looking (but filtered) dedicated vent in the top panel. This idea of yours is clearly superior, and it also looks a lot better and makes better use of the space.

    I guess I like both #1 and #2, maybe #1 a little better, but #2 of course has the famous M1 look going for it. :)
     
  30. rfarmer

    rfarmer [H]ard|Gawd

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    When I first saw that I thought that would be great if they had a SFX that supported SLI, but I see that the Silverstone 800w SFX-L does. Curious if the upcoming EVGA G3s 750w SFX-L will also support SLI.
     
  31. acquacow

    acquacow Limp Gawd

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    I think this initial design would be amazing. I'd have no more than a 140mm front rad with another 120mm fan above for getting cool air to the GPU and other cards.

    I'd die for a front-mounted SFX option so that I could use the remaining PCI-e slots...
     
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  32. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    You're in luck. The front and top have a flexible mounting system for 120 and 140mm fans:

    [​IMG]

    The power supply mounts to a bracket, which in turn uses 120mm fan mounting holes and can be mounted anywhere on the front or top, taking up one of the fan locations. So it's entirely possible to have the PSU at the front:

    [​IMG]

    Some ATX boards have the PCIe slots spaced further apart, so relocating the PSU can be useful for SLI builds in particular.
     
  33. acquacow

    acquacow Limp Gawd

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    If you make this and make it available for purchase, I will buy you many beers if you make it to the DC area.

    That is a promise.

    -- Dave

    PS: Slim ODD in the very bottom front?
     
  34. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    LOL... I appreciate the offer.

    ODD isn't in the cards for this case, I'm afraid. (Go external!)
     
  35. workshop35

    workshop35 Gawd

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    Second that for the Sacramento area. I love my M1 but would definitely like to add at least one of these to replace my other full atx systems.
     
  36. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    I notice that third 'channel' for attaching fans/radiators/etc., designed to allow offsetting fans/radiators away from the MB or other components...?

    Curious on the rear panel & how that works...

    Top mount PSU would have the exhaust where the PCI slots are, would this mean the PSU is offset from the rear panel & the exhaust exits thru vented PCI slot covers...?

    If using PSU over MB, does the PSU just vent out the opening where a 92mm fan would go...?

    Is the 92mm fan opening the area that would also fit the FrozenQ reservoir (you had mentioned in a previous post somewhere that M1 reservoir capability might be possible)...?

    I like the 'key slot' panel connections; still keeps it tool-less; but no need to worry about the length of a 'pin' solution, and probably better for flat-pack shipping...?
     
  37. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Right. 140mm fans use the outermost slots, 120mm fans can be center mounted or offset to the left or right. In order to clear an ATX motherboard, the fans (or PSU) need to be offset to the right.

    Correct.

    It's not in the model yet, but it will have a swappable plate for either the PSU or 92mm fan that mounts to the back.

    Yeah, though now that I think about it, for a full water cooled build, you'd probably want the PSU there, which precludes the res. Hm.

    It saves a few mm, but not a major difference overall.
     
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  38. Boil

    Boil [H]ard|Gawd

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    So this would be a panel that allows the PSU to FULLY vent out the back & keeps the power cable external...?

    Reservoir / pump combo might be a challenge to place in this chassis, and if one did use the 92mm fan mount for the FrozenQ / M1 reservoir, that would have the reservoir REALLY low in the loop...

    You mentioned there being some offset / spacing behind the front panel, but before the chassis frame (and fans / radiator), I think it was 15mm...? Might this be moved INTO the chassis to allow more room for a reservoir / pump combo...?

    I can see where 'gap' will allow less turbulence noise from fans mounted on the front panel, but if one is water cooling, the fans could be mounted in pull to reduce noise...?

    I would think there would be holes for the reservoir (like on the M1) on the 92mm fan panel...?

    I think the key slots would be more durable than the pins though...
     
  39. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Right.

    That's true.

    I can reduce the gap on the M-style version (#2). The rounded front panel requires the additional depth, though.

    If it's to support the res, then it would have to have them, yes.

    They're probably about the same. Where the key slots help is in keeping the panels straight, because they slide off rather than being pulled off.
     
  40. CybKnight

    CybKnight [H]Lite

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    I like the look of the M-design. It is recognizable as a Ncase, as well as being sleek and stylish.
    I would easily replace one or two of my current m-ATX cases if the design turns out similar to this.

    Some questions though...

    Did you consider other holes patterns? I am no expert, but even there is a bunch of holes, it seems you are at no more than ~50%(?) open surface area. I would think it could restrict airflow a bit, or is this within normal?

    I am not much for watercooling, what is the best tower aircooler that would fit the current design?