Windows 9 Coming November 2014?

VERY VERY true. I can do it now, but it took a lot of time. Still, it's far from perfect. I used to have a mouse connected to the laptop because it's just not efficient to use the trackpad.



Ashton said:
I keep seeing people side-stepping something I think should be important here...

"I use windows out on my desktop with a keyboard and mouse without a problem"

Well I dare you to put it on your laptop and watch your productivity decline. This was my beef with it. It took what were reasonable tablet gestures (swipe in from side, corner, etc) and integrated them into the touchpad. This SOUNDS like a great idea, but remember that touchpad is a couple inches in size, and your basically taking an inch off each side for gestures. I could barely use it unless I used the center 1" of space (which I rarely used) without triggering some menu, switching windows, etc. and keep in mind that while most of us here could hunt down and turn those features off even if they were buried or even required registry hacks, the average Joe (and often average CEO) cant and will just get frustrated.

THIS is the reason I hate windows 8, it wants to be a tablet OS and it wants to impose tablet features on laptop users who aren't using a massive 7-10+ inch interface, some of us are working with a 2" trackpad!

Yes, there are some features that are nice, like the 2-finger scrolling and 2-finger right-click, but there's a point where the more you pile on the less useful the device gets...
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Ur_Mom said:
Someone wrote an article on that the other day. Bring back NT for actual workstations. Separate the enterprise and consumer market again. I tend to agree. They really aren't one and the same. Windows 8 is a consumer product. It can be used in an enterprise, but it's not targeted towards that. No one would really allow the Windows Store (and Modern UI in turn) in their enterprise environment.
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From a product support standpoint this would be the wrong move. I am actually very happy that they merged the two. Until Win 8 was released the last few versions (Vista included) were actually good consumer/enterprise solutions. I would contend that if MS had made one change with Win 8 that it would have had as good or better acceptance (maybe not market penetration due to Vista hangups). All they had to do was as suggested allow for you to select if you wanted the traditional desktop or the new "Metro" UI. Why anyone at MS thought this would be a good idea I don't know.
 
Ur_Mom said:
VERY VERY true. I can do it now, but it took a lot of time. Still, it's far from perfect. I used to have a mouse connected to the laptop because it's just not efficient to use the trackpad.
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I use my trackpad a lot and gotten used to it, but it's not using it without a mouse.

Honestly, I prefer that little stub joystick in the middle of laptop's keyboard instead of a mouse.

The unfortunate thing with Windows 8, as it was said before, is that Microsoft is pushing a touch-based, tablet interface onto computers that aren't built for it. There isn't a large and affordable market for touchscreen LCDs for the desktop PCs. And, not many laptops have touchscreen LCDs themselves.

You can't emulate a touch-screen with a trackpad. Heck, I can't even do it with a graphics tablet. And, unless someone has a multi-touch trackpad, it wouldn't be the same experience.

Either Microsoft has to rethink their approach with the OS and the next, or manufacturers have to step up and start adding touchscreen support to their products. Both approaches are not going to win many converts unless one or both start to happen. You cannot push a new interface and GUI when the hardware support for it isn't widely available or when the majority has already gotten used to keyboard and mouse for everyday computing tasks.

Or, better yet, keep separate interfaces for different devices-- touch for tablets/touchscreen laptops and keyboard/mouse for traditional laptops and desktop PCs. That would be preferable.

It's unfortunate we will probably not see that in Windows 9.
 
Wrench00 said:
What factual incorrect statements are you referring to? Most of the arguments are about Metro and its problems. You can't say some one opinion is wrong.
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What I'm talking about isn't opinion but actual descriptions of tasks that people have made that simply aren't correct. For instance a couple of weeks ago there was a post around here about how tortuous adding a printer driver was in 8. The process to add a printer through the Control Panel on the desktop is virtually unchanged between 7 and 8. 8 will even add drivers for networked printers it can identify automatically.

I've seen this particular theme quite a bit where people complain about something that's so difficult in 8 yet the process works essentially the same as with 7 and it often involves the Control Panel and I have a feeling it is because people don't know about the Power Menu.
 
heatlesssun said:
I've seen this particular theme quite a bit where people complain about something that's so difficult in 8 yet the process works essentially the same as with 7 and it often involves the Control Panel and I have a feeling it is because people don't know about the Power Menu.
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The same, but different?

Yes, the power menu is a good shortcut (except on Surface, how do you right click that bitch?!), but it's not in Windows 7. So, it's not the same as with Windows 7. There are other ways of getting there, of course.

Once you get to the printers area, it's similar. Never had a problem. Browse the forums to find people that do have problems, though. Like I've said before - I've never experienced those problems first hand, but there are a lot of people that have them. They aren't rare. But, I can't dismiss them as myths just because I don't have the same problem with my multiple devices running Windows 8.
 
Ashton said:
Well I dare you to put it on your laptop and watch your productivity decline. This was my beef with it. It took what were reasonable tablet gestures (swipe in from side, corner, etc) and integrated them into the touchpad. This SOUNDS like a great idea, but remember that touchpad is a couple inches in size, and your basically taking an inch off each side for gestures. I could barely use it unless I used the center 1" of space (which I rarely used) without triggering some menu, switching windows, etc. and keep in mind that while most of us here could hunt down and turn those features off even if they were buried or even required registry hacks, the average Joe (and often average CEO) cant and will just get frustrated.
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How well edge swipes work will vary from track pad to track pad. It doesn't work well on smaller track pads, with larger ones I find they tend to work pretty well. Edge swipes can be disabled.
 
heatlesssun said:
How well edge swipes work will vary from track pad to track pad. It doesn't work well on smaller track pads, with larger ones I find they tend to work pretty well. Edge swipes can be disabled.
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I've also found that some trackpads aren't that precise. So, it's very easy to go a few pixels too far and bring up the swipe menu. Then, you have to go to the right a bit until it goes away, then try again.... Annoying. That's why I went with a mouse. That happened way too frequently.

But, that could easily be remedied by having the option to bring back the classic Windows interface (even with a separate icon for Modern UI, or customizeable). It's not that hard to fix, it's really simple. It's not making me so I can't do my work, and it's not all the time, but when it happens, you notice and it plops you out of a nice smooth experience (as with most other Windows versions).
 
Apple is probably going to release two versions of OS X in the same span of time, and the same number of versions of iOS.

Faster iteration is going to keep Microsoft competitive in the spaces they want to be competitive in. It shouldn't matter to consumers so terribly unless backwards compatibility is an issue (which it won't be — much to their own detriment, Microsoft is a backwards compatibility super-Nazi) or unless cost is an issue.

In ~two years you're going to be able to put a new version of Windows on your machine that probably doesn't change all that much and it's not going to cost you all that much if you want to do it. Not much here to sweat over.
 
wonderfield said:
Apple is probably going to release two versions of OS X in the same span of time, and the same number of versions of iOS.

Faster iteration is going to keep Microsoft competitive in the spaces they want to be competitive in. It shouldn't matter to consumers so terribly unless backwards compatibility is an issue (which it won't be — much to their own detriment, Microsoft is a backwards compatibility super-Nazi) or unless cost is an issue.

In ~two years you're going to be able to put a new version of Windows on your machine that probably doesn't change all that much and it's not going to cost you all that much if you want to do it. Not much here to sweat over.
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More frequent releases might become cumbersome for enterprise customers.
 
wtburnette said:
My plan as well. With all the stupidity built into Win8, I don't see upgrading until they can fix it. I want a start button and aero and I don't want to go into the retarded Modern UI unless I choose to, which would be never.





Quoted for truth. Amazing how many people don't get it. If you like/love Win8, good for you. Just realize some people don't feel the same way and allow us our opinion. The above is exactly my problem with Win8. There's no reason in my mind to have Metro/Modern on a desktop machine. Had they put in the choice to disable it, I would have upgraded with no fuss. Maybe one day they'll realize this, but I doubt it. I foresee using Windows 7 until support runs out.
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Oh, and I just see the phone/ tech support nightmares if that were to occur. But hey, what do you care, you will not use it or support it anyways, right? :D
 
Ur_Mom said:
I've also found that some trackpads aren't that precise. So, it's very easy to go a few pixels too far and bring up the swipe menu. Then, you have to go to the right a bit until it goes away, then try again.... Annoying. That's why I went with a mouse. That happened way too frequently.

But, that could easily be remedied by having the option to bring back the classic Windows interface (even with a separate icon for Modern UI, or customizeable). It's not that hard to fix, it's really simple. It's not making me so I can't do my work, and it's not all the time, but when it happens, you notice and it plops you out of a nice smooth experience (as with most other Windows versions).
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Sorry but, the other versions were no where near smooth at all. (Selective remembrance?) They worked and often well, but smooth is not a word that would come to my mind. :D Having to open a number of different programs each and every time I would turn on the computer was not smooth but annoying.

Having the info I need in front of me without having to do anything other than turn the computer on. Now that is smooth.
 
Ur_Mom said:
The same, but different?

Yes, the power menu is a good shortcut (except on Surface, how do you right click that bitch?!), but it's not in Windows 7. So, it's not the same as with Windows 7. There are other ways of getting there, of course.

Once you get to the printers area, it's similar. Never had a problem. Browse the forums to find people that do have problems, though. Like I've said before - I've never experienced those problems first hand, but there are a lot of people that have them. They aren't rare. But, I can't dismiss them as myths just because I don't have the same problem with my multiple devices running Windows 8.
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The process is essentially the same but yes the UI to do it is bit different. But those differences don't involve any kind of convoluted interaction with the Start Screen or Metro elements other than the bottom left hot corner. This does highlight the point about hidden elements but these hidden elements aren't really hidden, they are in the corners.

As for a touch device, yeah, there doesn't seem to be a way to bring up this menu directly though all of the items in the Power Menu are accessible in other ways like the ribbon in File Explorer.
 
Ur_Mom said:
I've also found that some trackpads aren't that precise. So, it's very easy to go a few pixels too far and bring up the swipe menu. Then, you have to go to the right a bit until it goes away, then try again.... Annoying. That's why I went with a mouse. That happened way too frequently.

But, that could easily be remedied by having the option to bring back the classic Windows interface (even with a separate icon for Modern UI, or customizeable). It's not that hard to fix, it's really simple. It's not making me so I can't do my work, and it's not all the time, but when it happens, you notice and it plops you out of a nice smooth experience (as with most other Windows versions).
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Bad track pads have for long affected the smooth operation of prior versions of Windows as well. And this does go to a core problem what Windows has had for far to long, crappy hardware. Overall I'm finding the use of tracks pads better in 8 than 7, scrolling seem much smoother in most apps and that's been a long standing issue for me with Windows and track pads.

When the swipes are coupled with a good track pad they are very pleasant and efficient, just a flick to switch apps is much faster than pointing and clicking on the task bar, it would be nice it that switching could also include desktop apps.
 
ManofGod said:
Having the info I need in front of me without having to do anything other than turn the computer on. Now that is smooth.
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Live Tiles? Yes, I agree having all that info is great. Nothing wrong with that. #1 awesome thing with my phone, too (WP8, formally WP7).

Just the accidental side charm menu's popping out, etc. that gets me with the trackpad.

Windows 7 (and earlier) are horrible at touch. Windows 8 is great. I think Microsoft just has some refining to do to combine the two and make it better for multiple ways of input. It's the first try with this (Windows 7 touch enabled stuff doesn't count. It was first and foremost a mouse driven UI).

I'm using a Lenovo T series (T420s) and a X220 for trackpad input. Maybe it sucks. But, it was designed with Windows 7 in mind. That could easily be my fault. Using hardware designed for Win7 and below and just updating to Windows 8. I have yet to try a laptop/trackpad that was designed with Win8 in mind. If I go that route, it will be a touchscreen and I'll have less to worry about.
 
drescherjm said:
They will just skip releases like they skipped Vista and in 2012 started rolling out Windows 7.
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We didn't skip Vista. Admittedly, that seems more an exception than the norm. I should have elaborated though -- It would become cumbersome if Microsoft finds it a problem to maintain their existing product life-cycle support model. With more OS releases out there, it seems a given to see an OS reach end-of-life sooner. That may, in turn, force businesses into more frequent upgrades. The sword, of course, is double-edged as a newer OS might be beneficial to companies that are dragging their feet becacuse of the implementation costs. I'm sure there are situations in which an enterprise might realize cost savings by moving to a newer platform.
 
Ur_Mom said:
I'm using a Lenovo T series (T420s) and a X220 for trackpad input. Maybe it sucks. But, it was designed with Windows 7 in mind. That could easily be my fault. Using hardware designed for Win7 and below and just updating to Windows 8. I have yet to try a laptop/trackpad that was designed with Win8 in mind. If I go that route, it will be a touchscreen and I'll have less to worry about.
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I have the x220t which is the same track pad as yours. The problem with that track pad even in Windows 7 is that it's too small and the edge swipe stuff doesn't work well at all on it so I have edge swipes disabled on the x220t. However, scrolling seems to work much better in 8 and the gestures like three finger flicking seem much smoother.

The Samsung Ativ Smart PC hybrid actually have a very nice track pad and the edge swipes with very well on it, I never have an issues with accidentally engaging them on that track pad as you really have to be at the edge of the pad for the gesture to work and the pad is good bit wider than the x220t.
 
As long as they get rid of the Metro interface, or at least make it optional, I am all for a new Windows release. Windows Server 2012 is essentially unusable due to the shitty Metro interface they decided to stick onto a server OS.
 
Thuleman said:
Windows Server 2012 is essentially unusable due to the shitty Metro interface they decided to stick onto a server OS.
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Not unusable, but not very smart. When RDPing into it, it's a pain in the ass. I use AD Admin Center (and other tools) for most things, but when connecting or using it directly, it's not good. I have a bunch of icons on my desktop as shortcuts, because I don't have a touchscreen RDP or VNC client...
 
heatlesssun said:
The Samsung Ativ Smart PC hybrid actually have a very nice track pad and the edge swipes with very well on it,
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Is that the ATIV that has the dockable keyboard (so it's a tablet and a laptop)? How do you like it? My Mom bought the Atom powered ATIV and has sent it back multiple times because the screen stops registering touch input. But, I'm looking at the i5 powered ones.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Not unusable, but not very smart. When RDPing into it, it's a pain in the ass. I use AD Admin Center (and other tools) for most things
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That's one more reason why I object to Server 2012. It seems to me the reason why they implemented Metro in 2012 is to push admins to buy additional software from MS, such as System Center, to run the servers since RDP has become to painful to even consider using.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Is that the ATIV that has the dockable keyboard (so it's a tablet and a laptop)? How do you like it? My Mom bought the Atom powered ATIV and has sent it back multiple times because the screen stops registering touch input. But, I'm looking at the i5 powered ones.
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Same device. I did have to return mine twice before I got a solid unit but I've had this one since November the dock since January and so far so good, it's working well with no major issues. Not the fastest thing obviously but the battery life is fantastic for such a lightweight x86 machine and it's perfectly capable of running Office and inking with OneNote.

It's going to be hardware like hybrids that will make or break Windows 8 and into the future. Windows 8 both the OS and the hardware are still works in progress and I think that's much of the problem Windows 8, things just aren't as complete and solid across the board as needed. Along with whatever improvements come with Windows 8+, the hardware has to get better and cheaper.
 
Brent_Justice said:
I'm waiting for 9 to see what it has to offer me. I have no reason o upgrade to 8 on my main machine. Sticking with 7 till I can see what 9 offers.
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Same for me. Same for everyone that I build systems for. I let them try Win8, as I did myself, but the consensus for wanting to stick with Win7 has been unanimous.

I'm really hoping MS puts an Aero Desktop GUI that can be selected as the default with this Win9 patch.
 
DejaWiz said:
I'm really hoping MS puts an Aero Desktop GUI that can be selected as the default with this Win9 patch.
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Hope is a dual edged sword. In this case I would say hoping MS has even admitted internally that they made a bad decision is hoping too much.

I remember their first recourse with Vista was to make 'Project Mojave' commercials where they did a bait and switch on consumer. Basically making prospective customers look like fools for not loving Vista. Not a lesson on how to win friends and influence people.

Although Vista's issues were tied to lack of being able to hit the ground running (or even walking in the case of some drivers) and not so much the interface changes. Which would have made it in a stage demo. Seems otherway around this time.
 
Windows 8 runs great. It's just a pain to get it to run what I want how I want. They built a super car, then took out the steering wheel and pedals to put in a joystick.
 
DejaWiz said:
I'm really hoping MS puts an Aero Desktop GUI that can be selected as the default with this Win9 patch.
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What's funny is aero glass was in the Win8 betas up until a certain build and then they removed it to de-emphasize the desktop - since, after all, Metroland is where they want everyone to spend their time so better ugly up that desktop and remove more choice.
 
DeathPrincess said:
Already have. Pretty much everyone sensible has no features really over 7, just some junk UI and now want a proper upgrade. Windows 8 shouldn't have ever been launched.
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Alternatively, Microsoft could have listened to feedback that was provided during early testing and mitigated some of the more annoying elements of the OS that have caused a bit of heartburn. I think the inclusion of some visual context hinting at the function of charms, the inclusion of a Start menu, and the ability to select whether land on the desktop or on the Start Screen by default on login would have solved a majority of their problems.

Some people have suggested that the system should sense whether or not there is touch capability and dictate the desktop vs Start Screen experience. Even that, I think, isn't sufficient as the desktop experience is perfectly usable on a touch screen and users would probably have preferred a choice to ease them into the new UI.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Some people have suggested that the system should sense whether or not there is touch capability and dictate the desktop vs Start Screen experience. Even that, I think, isn't sufficient as the desktop experience is perfectly usable on a touch screen and users would probably have preferred a choice to ease them into the new UI.
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Choice. That's why I love Windows. It's a closed source system, but very open to customization. With Windows 8, a lot of that is being removed (available through third party tools, though). Change start screen background, use Decor8. Start menu? Lots of options. Want to use Modern UI apps? Only available through the Store. It's becoming iOS with it's very closed system, marketplace. Windows 7 allowed me to do a lot. Windows 8 allows me to do less.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Windows 7 allowed me to do a lot. Windows 8 allows me to do less.
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For me it is exactly the opposite as I can do more with Windows 8 than 7 as I can take it more places and use more effectively while mobile. And everything I do on the desktop still works the same.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Just seems like bad businesses either need to fire their IT staff or go out of business. Either way...adapt or die. So tired of main reason MS shouldn't evolve their OS is because business are cheap ass fucks that want to live like dinosaurs.
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You have no idea how much it costs to upgrade a business. Licensing, staff time, training, loss of productivity. It's REALLY expensive. That doesn't even count the applications that just don't work on newer OSes. We're going to be standardizing on Server 2012 and Windows 7 in July. That's $500k for hardware/software alone. That's with cutting a ton of corners and not counting staff time and training. We're a really small agency too.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Choice. That's why I love Windows. It's a closed source system, but very open to customization. With Windows 8, a lot of that is being removed (available through third party tools, though). Change start screen background, use Decor8. Start menu? Lots of options. Want to use Modern UI apps? Only available through the Store. It's becoming iOS with it's very closed system, marketplace. Windows 7 allowed me to do a lot. Windows 8 allows me to do less.
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Regarding the Windows Store, it's more the what-if future that is a concern to me instead of the present time. Yes, the UI isn't as easily configure and it seems to detract from the overall flexibility of the OS for many people, but that isn't as significant as the Store. I worry that the long-term vision of software distrbution for Microsoft is Store exclusive and that is a concern. At the moment, the OS accepts last-generation installers and is backwards compatible to some extent (although not fully so as a few enterprise applications are most certainly not happy on the new OS). That was necessary because fo the infancy of the Windows Store and the lack of available software upon initial release. What later iterations of this vision will bring does make the Apple walled-garden approach seem within Microsoft's reach.
 
heatlesssun said:
For me it is exactly the opposite as I can do more with Windows 8 than 7 as I can take it more places and use more effectively while mobile. And everything I do on the desktop still works the same.
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From an outside persepective, you seem quite supportive of the new OS. What, in your opinion, are attributes of the new OS that make it more effective for mobile computing?
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
From an outside persepective, you seem quite supportive of the new OS. What, in your opinion, are attributes of the new OS that make it more effective for mobile computing?
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I can run 8 on something the size of the big iPad, get 10 hours of battery and even though the Windows Store is weak compared to the competition that's still access to many thousands of touch optimized apps that don't exist for Windows 7. And nothing has changed in regards to all of the tons of desktop applications that I ran on 7. Beyond compatibility issues between 7 and 8 those apps "just work" as they always have.

I understand a lot of people don't like 8 and I'm not trying to convince them that they should like it. I'm simply stating in specific terms how I use Windows 8 and why.
 
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n
Just seems like bad businesses either need to fire their IT staff or go out of business. Either way...adapt or die. So tired of main reason MS shouldn't evolve their OS is because business are cheap ass fucks that want to live like dinosaurs.



Oh lol.. I guess this person is ok with paying $600 dollars an hour for a lawyer, Or having 90% tax rate because the gov had to updarade software..
 
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