"Windows 10 Destroyed Our Data!" Microsoft Hauled into US Court

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,004
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    This must be the tenth time, right? It’s probably all in a day’s work for Microsoft’s lawyers by now, as another group of grumpy Windows 10 users plan to sue the company so we may all get a settlement to buy a Snickers bar. The claim is that upgrading from Windows 7 to W10 results in data loss or damage to software or hardware. One plaintiff had to take her machine to Geek Squad, who were surprisingly unable to help her recover her data.

    Three people in Illinois have filed a lawsuit against Microsoft, claiming that its Windows 10 update destroyed their data and damaged their computers. The complaint charges that Microsoft Windows 10 is a defective product and that its maker failed to provide adequate warning about the potential risks posed by Windows 10 installation – specifically system stability and data loss. Microsoft "failed to exercise reasonable care in designing, formulating, and manufacturing the Windows 10 upgrade and placing it into the stream of commerce," the complaint claims. "As a result of its failure to exercise reasonable care, [the company] distributed an operating system that was liable to cause loss of data or damage to hardware."
     
    captaindiptoad likes this.
  2. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Sues Microsoft because they "failed to exercise reasonable care"
    Complians about lost data that only a problem if you don't have a backup.. hmmmmm
     
  3. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,371
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    So many bad decisions.

    #1, Upgrade your OS without a backup.
    #2, Upgrading to Windows 10
    #3, Taking your system to Geek Squad.
     
  4. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    27,630
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Lol. Should be "unsurprisingly". Those clowns can't do shit.

    Just remember, that many people encountered the dialogue that asked them to schedule the Windows 10 upgrade, they clicked the X in the window to cancel it, and went on their merry way, only to come back to a Windows 10 login screen.

    Microsoft was extremely heavy handed in this rollout, and they deserve to have major settlements against them, not the check for 23 cents we are used to from class actions.

    I'd like to see some "hundred billion dollars" type settlements for this one to send a clear message to shareholders of other companies that this shit does not fly.
     
  5. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    I don't know if any of it is true, but I'm all but certain that Windows 10 didn't break the hardware. OTOH, I've seen geek squad recommend a customer buy a new computer because they had a virus.
     
    Ur_Mom likes this.
  6. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,292
    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    @WarmLessGlowingOrb will say this was a feature.

    Forcing OS downgrades on your customers was another great microsoft decision.
     
    Meeho, Revdarian and Zuul like this.
  7. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,380
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    I honestly hope you don't think everyone backs up their data? The people that sit at home using their laptops to play games and surf the web don't make backups. They're lucky they can turn on a PC.

    The problem is Windows 10 forces updates, and Microsoft doesn't test their updates extensively enough before releasing them. Forcing updates that aren't extensively tested is going to cause these problems. I personally used to update my Windows 7 machine almost never. Like maybe once a month or 3 months. That way I can avoid any fuck ups Microsoft releases, which happens too often. My Linux machines I update all the time, cause so far nothing bad has caused my PC not to boot.

    Updates have to be handled carefully, cause they can do some serious damage. HP had an update program on my aunts laptop that updated a BIOS, and it failed. Thus killing the motherboard. It fucking auto updated a bios, which is the dumbest thing you could ever do. God knows what my aunt was doing, but she doesn't know not to do stupid things with a machine when doing a BIOS update.

    BTW, some of the stories are stupid. This woman lost her data to an update, and was forced to buy a new laptop? Seriously, can't Geek Squad reinstall Windows or something?
     
  8. cortexodus

    cortexodus [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,614
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Most of these stories are just people dealing with things that they're simply ignorant about. It's not even that they're necessarily stupid (they may very well be, but it's not the important bit), it's that they have no idea what's happening and just operate on assumptions about the stability of what's happening in front of them. As for buying a new laptop and geek squad, etc. that should be obvious. Sure, Geek Squad could reinstall windows, but they could just as easily convince the ignorant customer they should buy a new laptop.
     
    Wierdo, captaindiptoad and nilepez like this.
  9. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    True, but not much of an excuse, with one exception: if she didn't intend to install 10, then she may have a case.

    I don't know about testing extensively. There's only so much you can test, when there are damn near infinite possible configs, but I am surprised that things aren't caught in the insider program.

    "Welcome to Best Buy." "You computer has a virus"?
    "You could buy AV software, but that may not fix it. A new Computer would fix the issue."

    I actually saw that happen (almost verbatim) about 10 years ago.
     
  10. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    15,299
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Yikes!
     
  11. NemesisX

    NemesisX Guest

    #3 is by far the worst.
     
  12. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,518
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Let the victim blaming begin!
     
    Revdarian likes this.
  13. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,836
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Seriously you think the general person knows this much? People that know wtf they doing with computers make up less then 5% of the population. This stuff is not common knowledge to the general population.
     
    ZodaEX, Revdarian, nightfly and 2 others like this.
  14. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,378
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Since a lot of folks were "Upgraded to Windows 10" on a schedule not entirely under their control, even IT savvy folks might have been behind on backups and verifying that all hardware had Win 10 drivers available. Lost data could be lost because a partition was formatted or just because the software package wouldn't run under Windows 10. A lot of software stores data in weird poorly documented locations. If the software won't run, the data is effectively lost even if it is still intact on the drive. In that case, even restoring from a current backup won't help since the software still won't run.

    While it is unlikely that hardware was really damaged by Win 10, if no drivers were installed during the "upgrade" process, the result is the same, it doesn't work. And Windows, especially versions early in a cycle, are notorious for missing and misbehaving drivers.

    Despite what many of us on this board think of Geek Squad, the courts will likely consider a non IT person using the GS services to be a good faith attempt to recover the lost data or fix non working hardware.

    The more interesting thing that might come of out of this case is how effective those forced arbitration and not liable for damages clauses are, especially if the upgrade was forced or due to deceptive prompts.
     
  15. g-money

    g-money Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    259
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    I'm sure that nobody in this forum seriously thinks an 'average' or 'general' person is a computer guru and follows good practices with their data. However, as time has progressed in the age of computers I think that 5% may be too low of a figure for having foundational knowledge - including an entire generation who has no excuse for not understanding basic concepts (since they were born with phones and computers in their hands). Creating backups of data before replacing something major is not even a computer only concept. Its one of safety and preparation and has existed in plenty of industries which touch far larger groups of people. Point being, the concept of these things isn't as foreign as it may sound.

    The point I want to make is that #1 is bordering on negligence rather than ignorance. You KNOW you need to change the oil in your car every so often (No, not every 3,000 miles!) but you ignore it and then things start breaking leading to some impact or damage or even an accident. Or you don't replace your brakes when they wear down. These concepts are simple, just like backing up your data if you use a computer. The industry has to deal with a double-edges sword on this because they want to make this stuff automated for you so you don't even have to think about it or worry about it. But at the same time, people are worried about control over their data.

    Even if the upgrade caused the system to 'break' (generally, not unrecoverable. But not by the layperson, the faint-hearted, and certainly not by the Geek-Squad), its a reasonable argument that the user was negligent on #1 and therefore bear some responsibility for the ultimate damage.
     
  16. Hisshadow

    Hisshadow n00b

    Messages:
    55
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2017
    If i was the judge, id make them pay microsoft for failing to backup their data lol
     
  17. MV75

    MV75 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,025
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    lol, the very first reply, #2. Man, so much arrogance here. I bet none of these blamers have ever backed up their car computer rom and ram either. Why should they? Because it "just works and has never been a problem ever before for them and they've never heard of it ever being a problem because it's reliably and TRUSTED to have been fully tested by the vendors"? Man that was a long air quote. I doubt they'd see the parallel though.
     
    Revdarian and nightfly like this.
  18. Dick Johnson

    Dick Johnson [H]Lite

    Messages:
    68
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2016
    Many years ago, back in the olden days of horse-drawn computers with hard drives that you had to crank by hand, it occurred to me that I should make a back up of my important files. Nobody told me to do this, it just seemed like common sense. So I am always amazed how few people have such a basic amount of common sense when it comes to doing backups.
     
    alxlwson likes this.
  19. jeremyshaw

    jeremyshaw [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    12,037
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    I suspect many people do not expect their computers to fuck up for no damn reason (or at least anything caused by them).
     
  20. Dick Johnson

    Dick Johnson [H]Lite

    Messages:
    68
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2016
    Which is one the biggest problems with Win10.

    According to John Cable, director of program management in the Windows servicing and delivery team, "What we heard back most explicitly was that you want more control over when Windows 10 installs updates."

    Unfortunately, Microsoft refuses to understand that "more control" includes the option of not installing Windows 10 at all.
     
    Revdarian likes this.
  21. Dick Johnson

    Dick Johnson [H]Lite

    Messages:
    68
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2016
    That may or may not be true. I don't work for Microsoft so I have no idea how well they do or don't test things. But, I do know that there are eleventy gazillion variables that can cause an upgrade to crash and burn, and no amount of testing by Microsoft can prevent every possible problem. That's why forced upgrades are ALWAYS a very, very bad idea.
     
  22. Zepher

    Zepher [H]ipster Replacement

    Messages:
    16,653
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    I had one issue on my 3770k, Asus Sabertooth Z77 setup, after the upgrade, every USB port was non-functional.
    Try using a PC with no working USB ports.
    windows-10-usb-error.jpg
     
    westrock2000 and Revdarian like this.
  23. ir0nw0lf

    ir0nw0lf [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,257
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    4 out of 5 times a customer brings in a machine to me with a borked over OS and I tell them that OS is toast, they automatically start thinking chunk the system and go buy a new one. I have to calm their butt down and tell them they just need Windows reloaded. People think worst case sometimes.
     
  24. midnightfrolic

    midnightfrolic [H]Lite

    Messages:
    79
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I blame MS as well as the end user. MS for essentially forcing the upgrade with no clear indicator whether it's a clean install or in-place upgrade. The client should know to back up their data. Yeah you can argue that some clients are only smart enough to just turn the computer on, surf the web, and play solitaire. But those same peeps most likely does not have any data to back up. Not hating on Geek Squad. I'm sure they have their reasons. If the client really wanted their data back, Geek Squad offers DATA RECOVERY service. It's ultimately the owner's decision to pursue data recovery services option. I'm sure the client declined that when offered. It has to be sent out to another facility I'm sure. I don't think BBY has a clean room in every store. I'm positive cost of repair exceeded cost of unit, and/or it was not economical to repair. Hence, client purchased a new unit.
     
  25. rezerekted

    rezerekted 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,043
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Reloading my system takes a week or more and is nothing to sniff at. Just reinstalling my Steam games would be a week long chore. I'm glad some people have the balls to sue Microsoft because these corporations get away with too much.
     
  26. Mike89

    Mike89 Gawd

    Messages:
    702
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    3 people filed lawsuits? Probably one dude and his two cousins.
     
  27. Nobified[H]

    Nobified[H] [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,096
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    LoL!!!! Perfect gif for this thread! (Not to be taken seriously) <--- Liberal disclaimer release!

    [​IMG]
     
  28. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

    Messages:
    711
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    That got a chuckle. Geek Squad! They probably charge $300 to give people a copy of the Windows.old folder lol.

    [QUOTE="Megalith, post: 1042902837, member: 142554"Three people in Illinois have filed a lawsuit against Microsoft[/QUOTE]
    That explains it, we complain about everything in IL haha. OTOH, if MS was not forcing W10 down users' throats through sketchy Windows Updates, the users would probably have not even tried it and stuck with what they knew. From what I remember if you manually installed it, there was a restore point that allowed you to rollback to Windows 7, and if you did an upgrade install using media the old fashioned way you would get a Windows.old folder with all your old data. How did these 3 plaintiffs manage to lose their data? Or did the computer just not work (but data was still on the drives)?
     
  29. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

    Messages:
    711
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    It's Geek Squad SOP is to upsell the customer on a new machine!
     
  30. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    yes, but backing up has long been something you should do.

    With that said, your entire install is backed up when 10 is installed. As a result, you can restore to your old OS in about 10 minutes, so they really don't have to do a backup (but they should).
     
  31. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Who the fuck upgrades the software in their car? I've never done it and I don't know anyone that's done it. I suppose the mechanic might do it, but I have no idea what process he goes through to do it or if there are sometimes problems when they do it.
     
  32. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    So explain to me how this person who doesn't have the skills to determine if it's safe to update their system or not, and probably wouldn't understand what Microsoft's bulletins mean, is helped by that?

    Answer: they're not. All your system does is open them up to attacks on patched vulnerabilities. You and I are not the reason why they auto install patches. The average user is the reason. The person filing this suit has no business deciding if a patch should or should not be applied (this is not the same as whether she should be forced to update her OS...assuming she was). If she was, she wouldn't have gone to the Geek squad.
     
  33. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Fortunately I have plenty of keyboards that work on a PS/2 port (as well as USB->PS/2 adapters. What'd you do? Did you use Window's soft keyboard or do what I would have done?
     
  34. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,280
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    I don't recall if it tells you to do that or not, but keep in mind that backing up your OS partition is part of the 10 install process (at least it was every time I did one).
     
  35. Modboxx

    Modboxx Gawd

    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    It's shocking that anyone in here can actually defend Microsoft.
     
    yourgrandma, Revdarian and nightfly like this.
  36. NemesisX

    NemesisX Guest

    I think it's more pointing out stupidity than anything.
     
  37. Zepher

    Zepher [H]ipster Replacement

    Messages:
    16,653
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    USB to PS/2 adapters I have didn't seem to work. And the soft keyboard wouldn't work as the mouse didn't work either.
    I was able to remote into the machine and revert it back to Windows 7. I found out that the issue was the Asus AI Suite's Ai Charger software was the cause of Windows 10 disabling the USB ports.
    Got rid of the software, did another upgrade and it worked fine.
     
  38. MV75

    MV75 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,025
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    I do all the time being a tuner. And I suppose you've never heard of recalls and software updates either. The process of the actual re-flash is simple using a computer and the right software, and making sure the ecu is kept supplied with enough voltage or the flash fails.

    Same parallel is BIOS updates. The average person doesn't need to, but people like to, and some even specifically buy dual bios motherboards for the purpose.

    Anyway, my point is made, you claim total ignorance over it, the average person will claim the same for their computer files, as it's all "in the memory" and has software on it from decades old companies that you'd come to trust would have their shit right by now. And these people "hear enough" to know that it should be recoverable if things go south. There is enough advertising around about data recovery and restoring, that's why they went to Geek squad. Guess what? Windows 10 is what. They don't have their shit right, they're regressing if anything.
     
  39. wizzi01

    wizzi01 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,895
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2008

    Yep, the service managerepresentative and I got into a conversation about oil changes. I came in under the miles and he Daud I didn't need an oil change yet. At the time I only drove 3 miles one way to work, and I told him I didn't want to take chancesome with sludge build up. He took me to the back to site me an engine where a woman didn't get her oil changed for 40k miles and they had to tear it apart because of all the sludge. I guess she was mad because they wouldn't honor the warranty because she neglected smoke maintenence.
     
  40. arestavo

    arestavo [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,409
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Revdarian likes this.