"Windows 10 Destroyed Our Data!" Microsoft Hauled into US Court

naib

[H]ard|Gawd
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No actually MS was not "caught out deliberately being underhanded and manipulative....."

Instead ignorant people are very loud in making that claim.

Now I will explain what I mean.

I just followed this link that naib provided;
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221

And I looked really hard at that notice and that notice clearly and specifically states that the "Upgrade has been scheduled ...." and to click here to cancel. If anyone thinks that clicking the X is supposed to un-schedule the upgrade action they are mistaken. It's a lazy assumption, "the computer is supposed to know what I want".

The fact that the author of that article keeps calling that task scheduler notice an "advertisement" is further ignorance in print. If clicking the X cancelled this activity in the past then that was the bad programing not the newer behavior.

I'm an IT guy, I do IT for a living, I am certainly not alone here. You go into enough different operating systems and do enough work with them and you learn to read and not assume.

In fact, you learn not to trust them at all and take every precaution you can because if you do IT, you know Murphy is alive and well at all times.

If the battery, in the switch that is my NTP time server, hadn't died last night, Kerberos wouldn't be fucking me hard right in the time window set aside for backing up the SQL server.

Do what it says, not what you think it's supposed to do.

NOW look at these three

1) https://hardforum.com/threads/warni...all-on-your-pc.1894415/page-4#post-1042313474
my post from about a year ago AND a direct quote from that time
This notification means your Windows 10 upgrade will occur at the time indicated, unless you select either Upgrade now or “Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel scheduled upgrade”. If you click on OK or on the red “X”, you’re all set for the upgrade and there is nothing further to do.

2) https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...-upgrade/0c6d11b5-8566-465e-b835-af20b7d5e3f3
A MS answers page backing up this was stated
This notification means your Windows 10 upgrade will occur at the time indicated, unless you select either Upgrade nowor “Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel scheduled upgrade”. If you click on OK or on the red “X”, you’re all set for the upgrade and there is nothing further to do.
3) the KB page today
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...o-information-on-scheduling-and-notifications
Note: If you click on the red "X", the screen will close and no further action is needed. This notification is designed to appear every few days until you choose one of the options provided above.
See how it has been updated to then state the usual behaviour will occur YET a year ago this wasn't the case...




seriously, I don't understand a few people here... the evidence is there yet doublethink
 

lcpiper

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EXCEPT when this was enabled the intent of [X] was to accept the install
Then when the KB was changed it was reverted ...

This wasn't an accident or a bug, this was intentional and there is more than enough evidence to show this, even in MS own domain. YET you sit saying it was "poor coding" it was poor alright, a poor managerial decision
Wait, you have a Microsoft document that directs an employee to change the behavior so that this is the result?

Or are you interpreting the change to this effect?

I haven't seen this evidence, but you have ... somewhere. This is your opening to point to your evidence please.
 

naib

[H]ard|Gawd
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"poor coding" that not only covers the code but the publicly viewable webpage... two different departments, two different teams making EXACTLY the same "poor decision"

hahahahahahahhahahahha


Occams Razor said:
When faced with competing hypotheses, select the one that makes the fewest assumptions
 

Dekoth-E-

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
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Messages
7,599
I against my better judgement am going to make one last attempt to make my point clear and simple to understand.

A Nigerian Prince contacts you saying his money is held and if you help him out you will get millions. You send him 100k, he disappears and you realized you have been scammed.

There are Two very important Facts that are established here.

1) The Scammer is in fact a Dirtbag and should suffer all the consequences of being a Dirtbag.
2) You are still the only one responsible for choosing to take the "Action" of sending him 100k.

In short, just because a dirtbag is a dirtbag and should be punished for it, doesn't suddenly make you innocent. If you seriously want to continue arguing that somehow that isn't true you can stay in whatever reality distortion bubble you like. If I wanted to participate in kindergarten level arguments I would go pick a fight with my 6 year old.
 

lcpiper

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"poor coding" that not only covers the code but the publicly viewable webpage... two different departments, two different teams making EXACTLY the same "poor decision"

hahahahahahahhahahahha
Keep laughing but from what I have read so far from your links, the behavior changed because MS changed the priority of the Upgrade.

Under the lower priority clicking the X would cancel the upgrade until the next notice. But under the higher priority, if a user had them set to automatically run, clicking the X would not cancel the action as it was already scheduled. instead it just closed the window. And the text in the notification says as much.

As for the website, that is just MS cleaning up an unclear statement.

The first one does not make it clear that clicking the X will still allow the upgrade to run, it's unclear, the change makes it clear that this is what will happen.
 

DPI

Nitpick Police
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Messages
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Hitting the X does not automatically always cancel an action, sometimes it just closes a window without killing the task linked to the window. It's called poor coding and it happens, even to MS.

This also doesn't mean it was done on purpose with malign intent
, not when there is a button within the window that says "Cancel" that does work as it should. Anyone who clicks the red X thinking that this always works properly is ignorant of the reality that sometimes even programmers fuck up.
You do realize that Microsoft's head of marketing admitted it was done on purpose a few months ago, yes? Even the resident MS shills finally had to concede their "It never happened to me so put the tinfoil hat away" and "It's just a bug, stop hating Microsoft" and moved the goalposts to "Well Microsoft isn't perfect".

The victim blaming and mental gymnastics you guys will put yourselves through trying to defend the indefensible ... just spectacular. Please keep it coming. Let's get stupid.
 

Dekoth-E-

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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You do realize that Microsoft's head of marketing admitted it was done on purpose a few months ago, yes? Even the resident MS shills finally had to concede their "It never happened to me so put the tinfoil hat away" and "It's just a bug, stop hating Microsoft" and moved the goalposts to "Well Microsoft isn't perfect".

The victim blaming and mental gymnastics you guys will put yourselves through trying to defend the indefensible ... just spectacular. Please keep it coming. Let's get stupid.
Unless I am reading something wrong, who here is saying that MS didn't do it on purpose or what they did was not reprehensible? We are well aware that Ms did the shit on purpose and I doubt you will find many if any of us saying that MS shouldn't have their asses nailed to the wall over it.
 

tetris42

Supreme [H]ardness
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Unless I am reading something wrong, who here is saying that MS didn't do it on pu Srpose or what they did was not reprehensible? We are well aware that Ms did the shit on purpose and I doubt you will find many if any of us saying that MS shouldn't have their asses nailed to the wall over it.
See I'm confused what you're saying now. It sounds like you're saying Microsoft is at fault, but ALSO saying that everyone who just clicked "install updates" without reviewing every last one or clicked on an X to close an upgrade prompt is ALSO a complete moron that deserves everything that happened to them.
 

BulletDust

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Messages
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No actually MS was not "caught out deliberately being underhanded and manipulative....."

Instead ignorant people are very loud in making that claim.

Now I will explain what I mean.

I just followed this link that naib provided;
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36367221

And I looked really hard at that notice and that notice clearly and specifically states that the "Upgrade has been scheduled ...." and to click here to cancel. If anyone thinks that clicking the X is supposed to un-schedule the upgrade action they are mistaken. It's a lazy assumption, "the computer is supposed to know what I want".

The fact that the author of that article keeps calling that task scheduler notice an "advertisement" is further ignorance in print. If clicking the X cancelled this activity in the past then that was the bad programing not the newer behavior.

I'm an IT guy, I do IT for a living, I am certainly not alone here. You go into enough different operating systems and do enough work with them and you learn to read and not assume.

In fact, you learn not to trust them at all and take every precaution you can because if you do IT, you know Murphy is alive and well at all times.

If the battery, in the switch that is my NTP time server, hadn't died last night, Kerberos wouldn't be fucking me hard right in the time window set aside for backing up the SQL server.

Do what it says, not what you think it's supposed to do.
I'm also an IT tech, I also do exactly what you do for a living and what you linked is underhanded and manipulative. I have had clients turn their PC on one morning to find Windows 10 installed due to manipulative, underhanded tactics that we frown upon relating to malware - Whether they unintentionally agreed somehow to a complete OS install or not via underhanded, manipulative tactics, it rightfully pisses them off as for all intents and purposes the way the dialogue was worded they believed they said "thanks...But no".

When you close the dialogue box, the dialogue box should do what the red X is intended to do and quite simply close the dialogue box and dismiss the recommended update completely. No if's, no but's, no scheduling in deliberately confusing jargon, no taking advantage of the fact the user had 'install recommended updates' ticked and wording the dialogue cleverly in an attempt to avoid legal litigation.

Apart from the manipulation and underhanded tactics used by Microsoft to force people to Windows 10, the switch to Windows 10 is not an update in the traditional sense of the Windows 7 updater - It is a complete OS re-installation and installing an OS over an existing install comes with a heightened risk of failure at the best of times.

You cannot outright blame the average, unknowledgeable PC user for this utter bullshit.
 

Jim Kim

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I'm also an IT tech, I also do exactly what you do for a living and what you linked is underhanded and manipulative. I have had clients turn their PC on one morning to find Windows 10 installed due to manipulative, underhanded tactics that we would never tolerate with malware and it rightfully pisses them off.

When you close the dialogue box, the dialogue box should do what the red X is intended to do and quite simply close the dialogue box and dismiss the recommended update completely. No if's, no but's, no scheduling in deliberately confusing jargon, no taking advantage of the fact the user had 'install recommended updates' ticked and wording the dialogue cleverly in an attempt to avoid legal litigation.

Apart from the manipulation and underhanded tactics used by Microsoft to force people to Windows 10, the switch to Windows 10 is not an update in the traditional sense of the Windows 7 updater - It is a complete OS re-installation and installing an OS over an existing install comes with a heightened risk of failure at the best of times.

You cannot outright blame the average, unknowledgeable PC user for this utter bullshit.
I do pc repair for a living.
Your statement is 100% true, it happened to several of my customers and I made good money rolling back computers or clean installing 10 if they wanted it.
Microsoft literally screwed the pooch with the launch of Windows 10, I hope they fry.
 

BulletDust

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Simply updating is bad enough, resulting in failure more often than could in any way be considered reasonable when you're subjected to a larger pool of machines owned by the masses than the average user or tech protected by their corporate IT department...



Resulting in:



All as a result of an average PC user shutting down their laptop only to find it applying an update....

....All night, resulting in failure.
 

Dekoth-E-

Supreme [H]ardness
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See I'm confused what you're saying now. It sounds like you're saying Microsoft is at fault, but ALSO saying that everyone who just clicked "install updates" without reviewing every last one or clicked on an X to close an upgrade prompt is ALSO a complete moron that deserves everything that happened to them.
How is that confusing? Though I would disagree with the aggressive last statement of "deserves" because I said "responsible for" and those are two entirely different things. So yes MS is At fault, but everyone that clicked it is also a moron and responsible for what happened on their system. I state this because if you took the time to read the prompts it was in fact an avoidable trap. Still a trap and still one MS should certainly be taken to task for, but still avoidable. Again my only argument has ever been that Win 10 did not in any case magically install itself on any machine. It required input from the user, accidental or otherwise. So again, a Lawsuit vs MS for deception, and all the other underhanded bullshit they pulled is one I am in 100% support of. A lawsuit like this where they are trying to pass the buck of user responsibility claiming something happened that didn't, I am not in support of. At the end of the day we are both in support of MS being held responsible for this debacle. I am simply only in favor of cold hard undeniable facts vs what decades of IT support have taught me which is "Most users are morons who click shit without reading".
 

BulletDust

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How is that confusing? Though I would disagree with the aggressive last statement of "deserves" because I said "responsible for" and those are two entirely different things. So yes MS is At fault, but everyone that clicked it is also a moron and responsible for what happened on their system. I state this because if you took the time to read the prompts it was in fact an avoidable trap. Still a trap and still one MS should certainly be taken to task for, but still avoidable. Again my only argument has ever been that Win 10 did not in any case magically install itself on any machine. It required input from the user, accidental or otherwise. So again, a Lawsuit vs MS for deception, and all the other underhanded bullshit they pulled is one I am in 100% support of. A lawsuit like this where they are trying to pass the buck of user responsibility claiming something happened that didn't, I am not in support of. At the end of the day we are both in support of MS being held responsible for this debacle. I am simply only in favor of cold hard undeniable facts vs what decades of IT support have taught me which is "Most users are morons who click shit without reading".
Except this was no accident. The installer dialogue was engineered to trick unknowledgable users into installing a complete OS upgrade, this wasn't a case of simply clicking 'install' and this was definately no simple Windows update like every other update in the past.

Windows is an OS designed for morons, but even this tactic goes way beyond morons clicking 'accept' every time it's presented to them.
 

Dekoth-E-

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Except this was no accident. The installer dialogue was engineered to trick unknowledgable users into installing a complete OS upgrade, this wasn't a case of simply clicking 'install' and this was definately no simple Windows update like every other update in the past.

Windows is an OS designed for morons, but even this tactic goes way beyond morons clicking 'accept' every time it's presented to them.

ac·ci·dent
ˈaksədənt/
noun
  1. 1.
    an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
    "he had an accident at the factory"
    synonyms: mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity;
    technicalcasualty
    "an accident at work"



  2. 2.
    an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
    "the pregnancy was an accident"
    synonyms: (mere) chance, coincidence, twist of fate, freak; More
It is literally By Definition an accident on the part of the user. MS tricked them by doing shady shit into unintentionally agreeing to install. Seriously I don't know if you are actually that dense or just intentionally being obtuse at this point.
 

BulletDust

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
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Messages
6,057
ac·ci·dent
ˈaksədənt/
noun
  1. 1.
    an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
    "he had an accident at the factory"
    synonyms: mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity;
    technicalcasualty
    "an accident at work"
  2. 2.
    an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
    "the pregnancy was an accident"
    synonyms: (mere) chance, coincidence, twist of fate, freak; More
It is literally By Definition an accident on the part of the user. MS tricked them by doing shady shit into unintentionally agreeing to install. Seriously I don't know if you are actually that dense or just intentionally being obtuse at this point.
I'm neither.

You're just struggling with the difference between mistake and mislead, there's every possibility you're actually the one that's either dense or intentionally obtuse. Lol!

I made my point, it still stands. I'm beginning to get the feeling I'm repeating myself and that makes me grumpy, so I tell you want. Argue with yourself, I've lost interest in your retarded point of view.
 

ruffbytes

Limp Gawd
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Oct 22, 2015
Messages
447
The only people who make money off of these things are the lawyers.

And it will be the equivalent of a parking ticket to Microsoft.

Maybe Microsoft should screen customers for computer competency before selling them OS in the future to avoid such litigious BS.
 

Vermillion

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
4,192
Maybe Microsoft should screen customers for computer competency before selling them OS in the future to avoid such litigious BS.
Too bad this OS is "free" and was crammed down users throats through social engineering and heavy handed bullshit tactics. Maybe MS needs to check their management competency first.
 

ruffbytes

Limp Gawd
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Messages
447
Too bad this OS is "free" and was crammed down users throats through social engineering and heavy handed bullshit tactics. Maybe MS needs to check their management competency first.
100% agree with you here, but I believe this is a reason to switch operating systems, not a reason for a class action lawsuit.
 

Uvaman2

2[H]4U
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Messages
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This crap might turn class-action.
Also, I did have updates off, and they turned themselves on, like another poster mentioned.. I thought I was crazy, or I did it without remembering or some shit.
I never updated to w8 or whatever, I have too much money in software tied-up to risk losing over an OS update.
 

tetris42

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
4,518
How is that confusing? Though I would disagree with the aggressive last statement of "deserves" because I said "responsible for" and those are two entirely different things. So yes MS is At fault, but everyone that clicked it is also a moron and responsible for what happened on their system. I state this because if you took the time to read the prompts it was in fact an avoidable trap. Still a trap and still one MS should certainly be taken to task for, but still avoidable. Again my only argument has ever been that Win 10 did not in any case magically install itself on any machine. It required input from the user, accidental or otherwise. So again, a Lawsuit vs MS for deception, and all the other underhanded bullshit they pulled is one I am in 100% support of. A lawsuit like this where they are trying to pass the buck of user responsibility claiming something happened that didn't, I am not in support of. At the end of the day we are both in support of MS being held responsible for this debacle. I am simply only in favor of cold hard undeniable facts vs what decades of IT support have taught me which is "Most users are morons who click shit without reading".
See I guess I'm more old-fashioned in that I don't think the average user should be expected to have to navigate traps from the OS itself and don't consider them morons for just clicking on "okay" or god forbid, a "close" button for something Windows is telling them they should do. Yes, there are plenty of moronic things a computer user can do, but this fails the "a reasonable person should expect this" test for me.

ac·ci·dent
ˈaksədənt/
noun
  1. 1.
    an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
    "he had an accident at the factory"
    synonyms: mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity;
    technicalcasualty
    "an accident at work"

  2. 2.
    an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
    "the pregnancy was an accident"
    synonyms: (mere) chance, coincidence, twist of fate, freak; More
It is literally By Definition an accident on the part of the user. MS tricked them by doing shady shit into unintentionally agreeing to install. Seriously I don't know if you are actually that dense or just intentionally being obtuse at this point.
It's not an accident if it was an intentional act on Microsoft's part. You yourself called it a trap. That's sabotage, hence, that implies there's an intended victim.
 

Dekoth-E-

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See I guess I'm more old-fashioned in that I don't think the average user should be expected to have to navigate traps from the OS itself and don't consider them morons for just clicking on "okay" or god forbid, a "close" button for something Windows is telling them they should do. Yes, there are plenty of moronic things a computer user can do, but this fails the "a reasonable person should expect this" test for me.

It's not an accident if it was an intentional act on Microsoft's part. You yourself called it a trap. That's sabotage, hence, that implies there's an intended victim.
Accident on the user's part..not on Microsofts part..I was responding to something he specifically said. I am not saying or implying in any way that this was an accident on MS's part..it most certainly was not.
 

tetris42

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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Accident on the user's part..not on Microsofts part..I was responding to something he specifically said. I am not saying or implying in any way that this was an accident on MS's part..it most certainly was not.
Accident implies that if everything was functioning properly, this wouldn't have happened. A wheel blows out, somebody gets into a wreck, that's an accident. This would be more like somebody planted a minefield on my road to work that I've taken a hundred times, so I ran over the mine and get my leg blown off. I wasn't expecting a minefield, no normal person would be expecting a minefield on their way to work, but there it is. Again, that's an attack, and the people who get hit are the victims. Just because I could have technically stopped the car, pulled out a detector to determine, yes indeed, there are now mines on this road to work that I've taken a hundred times, doesn't mean that was a simple mistake on my part. There need to be expectations of what's normal in a first place in order for somebody to make a mistake. A mined road would be a normal thing to look out for a military patrol in parts of Afghanistan. Less so for a shoe salesman in Boise, Idaho.

In other words, the intent and deception on Microsoft's part MAKES this not an accident by the user also.
 

jardows

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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Just going to chime in on this conversation - with my admittedly low reading comprehension skills (I only got a 36 on the reading comprehension section of the ACT test), I was under the impression that when Windows 10 was announced as a free upgrade, you had the option to reserve your copy. When you selected "reserve" that your computer would automatically update once the upgrade was ready. I wonder how many people who had Windows 10 automagically install on their computers had reserved their upgrade, not realizing that it was pre-authorization to install at a time determined by Microsoft?
 

Zuul

Gawd
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Jan 7, 2013
Messages
853
Just going to chime in on this conversation - with my admittedly low reading comprehension skills (I only got a 36 on the reading comprehension section of the ACT test), I was under the impression that when Windows 10 was announced as a free upgrade, you had the option to reserve your copy. When you selected "reserve" that your computer would automatically update once the upgrade was ready. I wonder how many people who had Windows 10 automagically install on their computers had reserved their upgrade, not realizing that it was pre-authorization to install at a time determined by Microsoft?
yes, and I wonder how many users thought "hey I can get a free upgrade, but I'd better hurry and click on reserve before they run out of copies and I can always upgrade at my conveniance!"
 

nilepez

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EXCEPT when this was enabled the intent of [X] was to accept the install
Then when the KB was changed it was reverted ...

This wasn't an accident or a bug, this was intentional and there is more than enough evidence to show this, even in MS own domain. YET you sit saying it was "poor coding" it was poor alright, a poor managerial decision
I get what you're saying, but in this case you're wrong and here's why:
When you get that window, you've already scheduled the install. Closing that window indicates you don't want to change anything.

If you want to be critical (and there's reason for that), you should be critical of not making reschedule a larger button. It may be that MS was intentionally misleading the user, but the logic that Xing out = I don't want to change anything is a reasonable assumption and as I said at this point you've already scheduled the upgrade. And YES, you didn't get to this point unless you agreed to the install. I never got that particular prompt, but others required you to say you wanted to install at least 2 or 3 times.

Again, I think it'd be better to have a button for rescheduling/cancelling, but I understand the logic of why you'd have X not change anything. It's probably correct, though given the results, a prompt asking if they want to reschedule/cancel the upgrade would have been better.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
10,611
You do realize that Microsoft's head of marketing admitted it was done on purpose a few months ago, yes? Even the resident MS shills finally had to concede their "It never happened to me so put the tinfoil hat away" and "It's just a bug, stop hating Microsoft" and moved the goalposts to "Well Microsoft isn't perfect".

The victim blaming and mental gymnastics you guys will put yourselves through trying to defend the indefensible ... just spectacular. Please keep it coming. Let's get stupid.
Well here we go again.

No one is defending MS.

But I am also not going to let people get away with a bullshit lie.

In the same notice where the X "doesn't do anything", and supposedly won't allow users not to upgrade, there is clearly stated text that says if you don't want to upgrade click here. It didn't say click the X, it said click here.

Now any company, MS or otherwise, that gets enough negative PR working against it is going to admit to something even if they aren't guilty if they think it will get their ass out of a kink with their customers. Doesn't mean the the customers are not still stupid as shit, it's just what companies do when the bottom line is threatened.

Your link to a previous [H] article says
The company (or its Chief Marketing Officer, at least) is admitting that the company made a big mistake with a previous version of the “Get Windows 10” installer, which had an “X” button that didn’t do anything and provided consumers no choice but to upgrade.
This is a false statement, sorry Megalith but it is.
You can't go to that link page and look at those two examples of the different notification windows and not see an obvious difference if you read it.

These people DID have an option not to upgrade, all they had to do was click here like the notice said. So no one can say they were forced to upgrade with no option to cancel. They can cry and claim it was underhanded and a trick all they want but that's bullshit. No IT guy that has any experience with multiple operating systems clicks the X when a button that says Cancel exists.

If I get a browser pop-up window I don't click the X if I think it could be malicious, do you? The entire window, X included could be a hot spot for user interaction to do exactly what someone wants you to do, click it. You hit Ctrl+Alt+Del and cancel the task through the Task manager, you don't click on that window. Conversely if a window says click here to cancel you don't click the X, you click here. And you don't claim that you were not given a choice when you were.

That link is MS trying to mitigate a bunch of pissed off lazy people. If you clicked that X and feel you were screwed over by it at least learn something. Learn to take the time and read what something says and don't assume the X means cancel cause it never ever meant cancel. It just closes a window, usually it will halt the associated process. I have seen it fail to halt the process long before Windows 10 was on any drawing board.
 
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