"Windows 10 Destroyed Our Data!" Microsoft Hauled into US Court

aokman

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Stop defending MS FFS. Just because some users might not backup their data, doesnt obsolve MS from causing the problem in the first place.

Microsoft invade someones PC and think they have the fuking right to update it when they feel like it and turn it into their own advertising billboard after the fact.

Windows 10 update bricked my mates PC... took 3 days to fix everything and reinstall apps etc. Why should all that time and labour be on his head?
 

nutzo

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Seriously you think the general person knows this much? People that know wtf they doing with computers make up less then 5% of the population. This stuff is not common knowledge to the general population.
Even though I know that's true, that shouldn't be an excuse.
I don't expect them to be about to swap a motherboard, but they should be able to do basic functions like backing up their photos.

Maybe I'm an exception, but I always try to educate myself, even if I have someone else doing the work.

Before I had anyone give me a quote on a new air conditioner, build a new patio, or just have the house painted, I made sure I knew the basics.
I research it, so I could tell if the person giving me the quote actually knew what they where talking about.
It's amazing how much bad information is out there, and how bad some contractors are (even ones that have good ratings online).
I've had quotes that wouldn't have pass inspection, and have had contractors give me incorrect information or even lie to me.
 

BulletDust

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As a tech that's not isolated to the safety of corporate/enterprise IT, if I work on a persons PC and apply an update/system modification without making a system image first I am responsible for that loss of data. Given a person with an attitude as well as an agenda that trusted me to rectify their issues and not make them worse I could be held accountable for that loss of data.

So if I can be held accountable for the loss of data as the result of a failed update/system modification on my behalf, why can't Microsoft be held equally responsible? Hell, they can just release updates that brick installs resulting in a loss of data with no repercussions whatsoever?! Very few PC users are in any way tech savvy, almost none know about the importance of backing up. As a result of this well known knowledge that we're now armed with wouldn't it make absolutely perfect sense for the updater to force a system update before downloading and installing an update if bricking Windows installs is a possibility?

I'm constantly salvaging important data from corrupted user profiles as a result of failed Windows updates, it's time the Windows updater grew up in a way that doesn't restrict a users control over their PC and managed to apply updates while the system is running unobtrusively in the background, not on boot up or shutdown.
 

nutzo

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Many years ago, back in the olden days of horse-drawn computers with hard drives that you had to crank by hand, it occurred to me that I should make a back up of my important files. Nobody told me to do this, it just seemed like common sense. So I am always amazed how few people have such a basic amount of common sense when it comes to doing backups.
In my day we had to pull our own computers, and they where heavy since they where made out of rocks.
Backups took forever since we had to dig up our own clay to make the tablets..
 

BulletDust

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Many years ago, back in the olden days of horse-drawn computers with hard drives that you had to crank by hand, it occurred to me that I should make a back up of my important files. Nobody told me to do this, it just seemed like common sense. So I am always amazed how few people have such a basic amount of common sense when it comes to doing backups.
Back in these days computers took up entire rooms and were hardly the realm of the unknowledgeable masses....
 

tetris42

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lol, the very first reply, #2. Man, so much arrogance here. I bet none of these blamers have ever backed up their car computer rom and ram either. Why should they? Because it "just works and has never been a problem ever before for them and they've never heard of it ever being a problem because it's reliably and TRUSTED to have been fully tested by the vendors"? Man that was a long air quote. I doubt they'd see the parallel though.
I think some people forget, lots of non-tech savvy people use Windows too. Basic stupidity (like the classic using a CD tray as a cup holder) shouldn't be defended, but if your computer downloaded Windows 10 and installed without your permission and some of your data or programs got compromised in the process, that's an attack, I don't care what the intention was, and there should be liability for something like that. Even tricks like the X button really meaning install are inexcusable.

I suspect many people do not expect their computers to fuck up for no damn reason (or at least anything caused by them).
This is exactly why I do all my updates manually. Unless there's a hardware failure (which is very rare), I expect my computer to work fine. I have NO such expectation if I have automatic updates enabled.

Reloading my system takes a week or more and is nothing to sniff at. Just reinstalling my Steam games would be a week long chore. I'm glad some people have the balls to sue Microsoft because these corporations get away with too much.
Ha ha, I've got mine down to about 3 days. I have a giant list of programs to install + another giant list of configurations to set up.
 

SvenBent

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I honestly hope you don't think everyone backs up their data? The people that sit at home using their laptops to play games and surf the web don't make backups. They're lucky they can turn on a PC.

The problem is Windows 10 forces updates, and Microsoft doesn't test their updates extensively enough before releasing them. Forcing updates that aren't extensively tested is going to cause these problems. I personally used to update my Windows 7 machine almost never. Like maybe once a month or 3 months. That way I can avoid any fuck ups Microsoft releases, which happens too often. My Linux machines I update all the time, cause so far nothing bad has caused my PC not to boot.

Updates have to be handled carefully, cause they can do some serious damage. HP had an update program on my aunts laptop that updated a BIOS, and it failed. Thus killing the motherboard. It fucking auto updated a bios, which is the dumbest thing you could ever do. God knows what my aunt was doing, but she doesn't know not to do stupid things with a machine when doing a BIOS update.

BTW, some of the stories are stupid. This woman lost her data to an update, and was forced to buy a new laptop? Seriously, can't Geek Squad reinstall Windows or something?
I think you took my post in a way to serious tone. i was merely pointing out something i found ironic.
and we know from the famoues " if i drop a KB on my HDD its the HDDS fault i lost my data"-guy that backup is not something all do.
 

M76

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Sues Microsoft because they "failed to exercise reasonable care"
Complians about lost data that only a problem if you don't have a backup.. hmmmmm
Bullshit. If someone breaks into someone's car you tell them "never mind the thieves, why didn't you have insurance for break-ins?"

It's all well to have backups, but if the data is lost due to a third party's negligence then that third party should be held responsible.
 

tetris42

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Bullshit. If someone breaks into someone's car you tell them "never mind the thieves, why didn't you have insurance for break-ins?"

It's all well to have backups, but if the data is lost due to a third party's negligence then that third party should be held responsible.
Except in this case, it would be kind of like the car manufacturer themselves tracking you down to come break into your car.
 

M76

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Except in this case, it would be kind of like the car manufacturer themselves tracking you down to come break into your car.
Well no. Ms didn't manufacture the computer. You could maybe say the software developer of the navigation that came with the car.
 

Dekoth-E-

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Let the victim blaming begin!
There are no victims here, just morons. Sorry but there is a point of stupidity where you cease being a victim and are the one responsible. There are lots of things I agree MS could be sued over, this case isn't it.
 

nightfly

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This is all a huge argument about jerks who run a corporation who did something that they knew they shouldn't do. It comes down to doing the right thing. This is not about whether they can do it, it's whether they SHOULD do it. And they knew that they shouldn't do this to their customers. But out of greed they did it anyway.
That's what this is about. Most of the problems in the world are because of people doing bad things even though they KNOW it's wrong to do them, but they do them anyway.

Their justification? This:

I WANT TO, AND I CAN, AND I DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT ANYONE ELSE WANTS, AND I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH IT FUCKS UP THEIR LIFE AS LONG AS I GET WHAT I WANT.

Greed, selfishness, and the complete lack of concern for anyone else.

And you guys are worried about AI being dangerous to the survival of the human race? WE are the most dangerous thing to ourselves. Nasty, greedy, evil pricks that don't give a shit about anyone else except themselves. I know, we're watching this play out in Washington now as the haves are trying to do things that will accellerate the death rate of the have nots. But it goes on all over the place, every day. Just look around; it's everywhere. Assholes making other people's lives miserable, all so that they can make more money. Because the right thing, and the hardest thing, are all too often one and the same. And all too often as well, mankind always wants the easy way out, so they just intentionally screw over other people.
 

BulletDust

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There are no victims here, just morons. Sorry but there is a point of stupidity where you cease being a victim and are the one responsible. There are lots of things I agree MS could be sued over, this case isn't it.
So tell me again how you can be classed as the one responsible when you have absolutely no intuitive control over the Windows 10 updating process and no satisfactory way to stop MS applying an update whether it's known to cause issues with Windows installs or not?

Most Windows users out there are technically inept. They have no idea about backups and as far as I'm concerned Microsoft are not taking reasonable steps to ensure, to the best of their ability, that should a flawed update cause issues with an install, recovery can be performed quickly and easily as a quick backup should be a prerequisite to the updating process itself if everyday users are to be used as beta testers.

You wouldn't believe the number of people that force their PC off as all they wanted to do was a quick reboot and Windows decides then and there to apply an update on shutdown, a process that's perfectly capable of tying the machine up for 30 mins to a number of hours. The whole updating process is an archaic joke.
 
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Modboxx

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This thread and some of the people in here is exactly the reason why Microsoft and all the other tech giants get away with this bullshit. In the 90's and early 2000's people sued the shit out of them. The whole spying nonsense would've never happened back then because people had balls. Today we have people who actually think they are smart because they can backup data to a hard drive.
 

PeaKr

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter if someone failed to backup their data. The thing they'll remember is that it was the upgrade to Win 10 that caused it, true or not. The only reason this hasn't become a class action yet is it probably didn't effect enough people. I'm sure there are plenty of law firms hungry for M$ blood.
 

Nenu

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Well no. Ms didn't manufacture the computer. You could maybe say the software developer of the navigation that came with the car.
The hardware didnt fail, the OS did.
 

Ur_Mom

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Microsoft's upgrade schemes were very tacky and slimy.

I'm just curious how she lost her data, though. Enough to not to be able to be recovered. Seems like there were other issues involved besides just an OS upgrade.

I'm not defending Microsoft, nor am I blaming them. Going by the information that's been given, it could go either way. I'm sure we'd all love to be in the court room or get evidence one way or another. But, we don't have the facts to point fingers.

If it was Microsoft's fault, it's an uncommon thing. They've already got nailed on their shitty upgrade tactics. An upgrade wiping her data? I wouldn't be shocked. I just think there were other issues involved. Just based on the limited information given.

It'll be an interesting case, though. I'd like to see where it goes, regardless of who is at fault.
 

g-money

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I had one issue on my 3770k, Asus Sabertooth Z77 setup, after the upgrade, every USB port was non-functional.
Try using a PC with no working USB ports.
View attachment 20231
When you say was, do you mean that you fixed it? Upgrade drivers from the manufacturer (Asus)? I wouldn't consider this an OS issue as much as just a preparatory step to upgrade. I think there was even a tool which would tell you ahead of time if certain hardware or drivers were compatible or not, etc. If you're like me, anytime I do an upgrade I make sure I have the latest drivers for chipset and motherboard devices saved and ready to go (or already installed).
 

tetris42

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Reduce that time to less than 3 hours, image your machine regularly.
I make an image after I go through everything. That doesn't do much for a motherboard change. You're risking instability or other weirdness without doing a clean install after that.
 

Nenu

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So? Who said the hardware failed?
I didnt, I am pointing out that the hardware didnt fail, the software did.
And with that comes the liability.

You said this
Well no. Ms didn't manufacture the computer. You could maybe say the software developer of the navigation that came with the car.
You implied that because MS didnt build the computer, they were absolved of liability.
The OS is not the computer, it is what controls the computer.
It is an additional purchase that is maintained independently by Microsoft.
They are liable for the screw ups when they mess up modifying it.
 

Zepher

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When you say was, do you mean that you fixed it? Upgrade drivers from the manufacturer (Asus)? I wouldn't consider this an OS issue as much as just a preparatory step to upgrade. I think there was even a tool which would tell you ahead of time if certain hardware or drivers were compatible or not, etc. If you're like me, anytime I do an upgrade I make sure I have the latest drivers for chipset and motherboard devices saved and ready to go (or already installed).
There was an Asus program, Ai Charger+, which Windows detected during the upgrade and deemed not compatible, so instead of letting me know that the program would cause issues, it just stopped all the USB hubs from operating when the upgrade was finished.
Reverting back to windows 7 and removing all traces of the program and then upgrading to 10 again fixed the issue.
 

nutzo

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Reduce that time to less than 3 hours, image your machine regularly.
I have my home systems setup to create an image of the system drive at least one a week to my NAS.
NAS get backed up (at least the important non-replaceable stuff) to an external HD taken off site.

Only way I loose everything is if California falls into the ocean, and at that point I don't think it will matter. :confused:
 

M76

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I didnt, I am pointing out that the hardware didnt fail, the software did.
And with that comes the liability.

You said this


You implied that because MS didnt build the computer, they were absolved of liability.
The OS is not the computer, it is what controls the computer.
It is an additional purchase that is maintained independently by Microsoft.
They are liable for the screw ups when they mess up modifying it.
You should really read the whole context of that post before jumping in like that.
 

Jim Kim

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I have my home systems setup to create an image of the system drive at least one a week to my NAS.
NAS get backed up (at least the important non-replaceable stuff) to an external HD taken off site.

Only way I loose everything is if California falls into the ocean, and at that point I don't think it will matter. :confused:
Images are great and restoring from one is quick, you might think about a cloud backup to protect yourself from CA slipping into the Pacific in the near future. ;)
Lots of unlimited cloud storage available for ~$5 a/month ex. Backblaze.
 

Meeho

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I make an image after I go through everything. That doesn't do much for a motherboard change. You're risking instability or other weirdness without doing a clean install after that.
Not really.
 

Miikun

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter if someone failed to backup their data. The thing they'll remember is that it was the upgrade to Win 10 that caused it, true or not. The only reason this hasn't become a class action yet is it probably didn't effect enough people. I'm sure there are plenty of law firms hungry for M$ blood.
Pretty much everyone I know knows at least one other person who got hosed by the update. One of my old colleagues had her POS system hosed by Windows 10, it rendered the software unusable (keyboard and scanner wedges didn't work, nor did the receipt printer, and Quickbooks wouldn't import their zout results due to some plugins not working in Edge and its integration with IE). They pretty much lost a full day of sales since they would have issues handling refunds cleanly if they had to process everything manually. Restoring from a backup wouldn't have saved them, they would have to roll back the days transactions. Obviously in the end they didn't sue since a lawyer cost a lot more than a couple thousand. I'm glad at least someone is pissed enough to stand up for themselves.
 

tetris42

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Not really.
Yes, really, it depends on what you're switching to. Back on XP, I could get away with swapping and just updating the drivers. Not on 7. I tried it as an experiment before, and I got occasional blue screens after the fact and did notice a drop in performance with odd stall-outs every now and then. Windows 7 does NOT like you switching motherboard chipsets, it's going to run better doing a clean install. I'm sure some combinations are less volatile than others, but it really can be an issue.
 

nilepez

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I do all the time being a tuner. And I suppose you've never heard of recalls and software updates either. The process of the actual re-flash is simple using a computer and the right software, and making sure the ecu is kept supplied with enough voltage or the flash fails.

Same parallel is BIOS updates. The average person doesn't need to, but people like to, and some even specifically buy dual bios motherboards for the purpose.

Anyway, my point is made, you claim total ignorance over it, the average person will claim the same for their computer files, as it's all "in the memory" and has software on it from decades old companies that you'd come to trust would have their shit right by now. And these people "hear enough" to know that it should be recoverable if things go south. There is enough advertising around about data recovery and restoring, that's why they went to Geek squad. Guess what? Windows 10 is what. They don't have their shit right, they're regressing if anything.
Tuner=works on cars for a living? If so, you're exactly who I wasn't talking about. Regardless, I stand by my statement that I don't know anyone that updates their car's software. I had a car for 20 years. Was the car's software ever updated? Got me. I never did it.

As for the rest, do you realize that Windows 10 backs up the OS before upgrading? And with respect, backing up your computer has been stressed to end users for decades. If you're not backing up your files, you're playing Russian Roulette. For god's sake, my parents (both pushing 80) regularly back up their files locally and online and that's not because I told them to. They got that all on their own. In fact, they were practicing safe computing long before I did...probably because at one time I didn't care about files on my computer.
 

Dekoth-E-

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So tell me again how you can be classed as the one responsible when you have absolutely no intuitive control over the Windows 10 updating process and no satisfactory way to stop MS applying an update whether it's known to cause issues with Windows installs or not?

Most Windows users out there are technically inept. They have no idea about backups and as far as I'm concerned Microsoft are not taking reasonable steps to ensure, to the best of their ability, that should a flawed update cause issues with an install, recovery can be performed quickly and easily as a quick backup should be a prerequisite to the updating process itself if everyday users are to be used as beta testers.

You wouldn't believe the number of people that force their PC off as all they wanted to do was a quick reboot and Windows decides then and there to apply an update on shutdown, a process that's perfectly capable of tying the machine up for 30 mins to a number of hours. The whole updating process is an archaic joke.
If your statement were factually provable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately I never once saw a single provable example of Win 10 auto installing. I won't disagree that MS pulled some shady shit and made it less than clear, but at the end of the day every single example was ultimately user error. Now if you want to have a lawsuit against MS for the aforementioned shady shit and consumer deception, then I am 100% on board with supporting that. However the argument of "Win 10 just auto installed and deleted all my shit" Bullshit..period. User fucking error every single fucking time, you aren't a victim you are a dumbass.
 

Simplyfun

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If your statement were factually provable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately I never once saw a single provable example of Win 10 auto installing. I won't disagree that MS pulled some shady shit and made it less than clear, but at the end of the day every single example was ultimately user error. Now if you want to have a lawsuit against MS for the aforementioned shady shit and consumer deception, then I am 100% on board with supporting that. However the argument of "Win 10 just auto installed and deleted all my shit" Bullshit..period. User fucking error every single fucking time, you aren't a victim you are a dumbass.
Absolutely agree, MS is at fault for the pop ups but the users clicked something they should not have every single time.

"Oh yeah now you'll blame the victims" ... there are no victims, it's a PC run by an idiot. I always blame the idiots. The PC is never at fault, it's a bloody machine. It's broken or it's not. The users are always broken.
 

westrock2000

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So many bad decisions.

#1, Upgrade your OS without a backup.
#2, Upgrading to Windows 10
#3, Taking your system to Geek Squad.
Hold on. I have a very serious observation.

She went to Geek Squad.

Are there nudes available yet?
 

westrock2000

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Absolutely agree, MS is at fault for the pop ups but the users clicked something they should not have every single time.

"Oh yeah now you'll blame the victims" ... there are no victims, it's a PC run by an idiot. I always blame the idiots. The PC is never at fault, it's a bloody machine. It's broken or it's not. The users are always broken.
I saw this. Maybe it means something. Maybe it is fake.

 

Simplyfun

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I saw this. Maybe it means something. Maybe it is fake.
What did you click to download the install? hmmmm, oh nothing of course, the computer did it all on it's own. Yep yep, lets fire up the lawsuit.

Don't think that I don't believe MS are scummy, they are.
 

westrock2000

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What did you click to download the install? hmmmm, oh nothing of course, the computer did it all on it's own. Yep yep, lets fire up the lawsuit.

Don't think that I don't believe MS are scummy, they are.
I would guess that people did normal automatic updates and walked away cause it takes a while and by the time they came back that timer had already ran out and done the deed. Didn't happen to me, so it's my speculation.
 

Dekoth-E-

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I saw this. Maybe it means something. Maybe it is fake.

In order to get that window you had to previously agree to install the update, but then delay it. That was a window that came up after a delayed agreed update got delayed too many times. So, real window..taken out of context. Either way it goes back to the original point of you had to agree to it at some point. Now that isn't saying MS didn't pull some shady shit to trick people into agreeing (They most certainly did), just stating that if you took the time to read you could avoid it. As I said..Sue MS for the Shady bullshit they did...not for the incompetence of people who don't read shit before clicking. I had numerous computers with auto updates turned on never once install it automatically. Lots of popups that made it difficult to know what to click to avoid it, but didn't auto.
 
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