Who Killed PC Audio, and will Soundcards Ever Be a Thing Again?

So what is the recommendations/solutions for someone like me that doesn't have desk space/room for receiver nor speakers for my PC and wants positional audio via headphones? My wife and I have our own PCs and desks in the same room. We both use headphones, Grado SR60s. There is no way we can each have surround sound speaker setups as she doesn't want to hear my games nor do I want to hear hers.
 
Mchart said:
I don't particularly care if people think it's Hipster or not. The Jotunheim when viewed as just a headphone AMP has completely turned the market on it's head when you consider what you are getting for the price paid. Period. Being hipster or not doesn't change that fact.
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Maybe turned the hipster market on it's head. $400 for a headphone amp is only a value to hipsters.

I can buy a great HT receiver for less than that. A receiver with a high quality DAC/Amp, and has headphone outputs.

The only thing a standalone headphone amp does better is empty my wallet.
 
I'm familiar with HT audio but for computers I need a bit of help. I could use a receiver or DAC and an optical cable but I'd want to use my existing Klipsch Promedia 2.1 speakers so how would that work?

Right now I just have the Klipschs connected via 3.5mm to the PC. Or put another way; using my existing speakers what could I do to make it better?

My mobo has the following:

  1. Realtek® ALC892 codec
  2. High Definition Audio
  3. 2/4/5.1/7.1-channel
  4. Support for S/PDIF In
  5. Support for S/PDIF Out
 
Mchart said:
I don't particularly care if people think it's Hipster or not. The Jotunheim when viewed as just a headphone AMP has completely turned the market on it's head when you consider what you are getting for the price paid. Period. Being hipster or not doesn't change that fact.
Click to expand...
One can get Objective2+ODAC for $110 less.
 
Noghri2 said:
So what is the recommendations/solutions for someone like me that doesn't have desk space/room for receiver nor speakers for my PC and wants positional audio via headphones? My wife and I have our own PCs and desks in the same room. We both use headphones, Grado SR60s. There is no way we can each have surround sound speaker setups as she doesn't want to hear my games nor do I want to hear hers.
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Use whatever flavor of stereo dac/amp you have, but run it through Razor's free virtual surround software. It basically acts as a man-in-the-middle audio device that windows outputs 5.1+ to, and then applies virtual surround to and outputs it to whatever device of your choice in standard stereo.

Razor's virtual surround method actually works quite well for gaming. Just make sure it's disabled whenever you aren't playing games and want standard stereo.
 
Meeho said:
One can get Objective2+ODAC for $110 less.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can.

But the objective 2 does not do balanced XLR output, does not have balanced pre-amp outputs, and comes nowhere NEAR the amount of output power either balanced or single-ended that the Jotunheim does.

Seriously, look at the specs between the two.

If the Objective 2 is enough for you - Awesome! I'm not saying it sucks, and for the price it also offers a lot for the money.

My point is that for the price range the Jotunheim is in nothing compares. For the amount of output power it offers, and the fact that it offers truly balanced output there is nothing near it in price.

So for me, the Jotunheim is a value, for others it isn't. Most people don't care about having 500mW @ 600 ohms out of a balanced XLR output, or up to 7.5w @ 16 ohms.

Will hipsters buy a Jotunheim and run some headphones off of it that even an iPhone could easily drive? No question about it. Doesn't change the fact that there are people with headphones that can use the power the Jotunheim delivers, and the integrated DAC module just adds value and removes some clutter if you don't already have a half-way decent DAC.
 
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Mchart said:
Yes, you can.

But the objective 2 does not do balanced XLR output, does not have balanced pre-amp outputs, and comes nowhere NEAR the amount of output power either balanced or single-ended that the Jotunheim does.

Seriously, look at the specs between the two.
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And how does the Jotunheim compare to the specs of $300 HT receiver.

$400 headphone amps are an affectation.
 
Snowdog said:
And how does the Jotunheim compare to the specs of $300 HT receiver.

$400 headphone amps are an affectation.
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I have no idea. Compare it to the specs of whatever receiver you are using. I'm willing to bet your $300 receiver doesn't even have a balanced XLR output, but that's just me guessing.

The specs of both products are widely available. I'm more then willing to say your $300 receiver is better if the specs say it is. Even if it doesn't have balanced outputs, what is the single ended headphone output rated at? Can it easily drive power hungry headphones? If it does have enough power how bad is the crosstalk?

You keep saying 'Oh, this thing is cheaper and thus this other thing is worthless' and completely ignoring the fact that the Jotunheim is objectively doing something that the stuff you are comparing it to doesn't even do.
 
Mchart said:
I have no idea. Compare it to the specs of whatever receiver you are using. I'm willing to bet your $300 receiver doesn't even have a balanced XLR output, but that's just me guessing.
Click to expand...

XLR is just another affectation when it comes to home audio. They have their place in the recording studio for long mic runs, but headphones, there is no way they provide a human ear discernible benefit.
 
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Snowdog said:
XLR is just another affectation when it comes to home audio. They have their place in the recording studio for long mic runs, but headphones, there is no way they provide a human ear discernible benefit.
Click to expand...

And that right there is your opinion.
 
Mchart said:
And that right there is your opinion.
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Opinion is all this kind of audio affectation has going for it. It's right up there with monster cables, in fact cable prices make Monster cables look budget.

People buy $400 headphone AMP, and spend another $300 adding XLR cables to their headphones, so they have to convince themselves there is all kinds of magical new sound they are hearing.
 
Mchart said:
I have no idea. Compare it to the specs of whatever receiver you are using. I'm willing to bet your $300 receiver doesn't even have a balanced XLR output, but that's just me guessing.

The specs of both products are widely available. I'm more then willing to say your $300 receiver is better if the specs say it is. Even if it doesn't have balanced outputs, what is the single ended headphone output rated at? Can it easily drive power hungry headphones? If it does have enough power how bad is the crosstalk?

You keep saying 'Oh, this thing is cheaper and thus this other thing is worthless' and completely ignoring the fact that the Jotunheim is objectively doing something that the stuff you are comparing it to doesn't even do.
Click to expand...

A $300 receiver is the audio equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger. If someone is happy with that then it's all good but it's no comparison to a good steakhouse burger. The amplification in the schiit is going to be far superior to any 5.1 receiver amplification under $800 or so. If you prefer listening/gaming on headphones buying a $200 DAC and AMP is still going to be better than buying a $400 5.1 receiver. If you like to go back and forth between using headphones and a 5.1 system and are budget limited then I'd go for the receiver but if you're going for a headphone only setup stick with a nice headphone DAC and stereo AMP.

Snowdog's hipster infatuation is fucking retarded. While it's obvious he doesn't know enough about audio to waste time explaining why a well built AMP and DAC is better than a bottom of the barrel receiver I will say that the quality of a product is not determined based on the people who use it so dismissing something outright based on some preconceived bias towards a group of people (no matter how obnoxious) and not based on any actual knowledge of the product itself is just ignorant and stupid.

You can buy a nice set of locking XLR cables for $20. Comparing amplification, which has a measurable and perceivable effect on audio output, to overpriced speaker cables is also pretty stupid.
 
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Snowdog said:
Opinion is all this kind of audio affectation has going for it. It's right up there with monster cables, in fact cable prices make Monster cables look budget.

People buy $400 headphone AMP, and spend another $300 adding XLR cables to their headphones, so they have to convince themselves there is all kinds of magical new sound they are hearing.
Click to expand...

You can spend that much on cables. I built my own cables for next to nothing. I bought generic XLR connecters and used fairly cheap copper w/ premade 2.5mm ends that I made a twisted pair out of since i'm smart enough to realize that the copper doesn't matter much - It's the fact that it's a balanced twisted pair that matters.
 
grifter_66 said:
A $300 receiver is the audio equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger. If someone is happy with that then it's all good but it's no comparison to a good steakhouse burger. The amplification in the schiit is going to be far superior to any 5.1 receiver amplification under $800 or so. If you prefer listening/gaming on headphones buying a $200 DAC and AMP is still going to be better than buying a $400 5.1 receiver. If you like to go back and forth between using headphones and a 5.1 system and are budget limited then I'd go for the receiver but if you're going for a headphone only setup stick with a nice headphone DAC and stereo AMP.

Snowdog's hipster infatuation is fucking retarded. While it's obvious he doesn't know enough about audio to waste time explaining why a well built AMP and DAC is better than a bottom of the barrel receiver I will say that the quality of a product is not determined based on the people who use it so dismissing something outright based on some preconceived bias towards a group of people (no matter how obnoxious) and not based on any actual knowledge of the product itself is just ignorant and stupid.
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I know enough to spot snake oil BS. Even a $300 receiver will have frequency response exceeding human hearing, and similarly low levels of distortion.

A $5 DAC is all you need to go beyond the limits of Human detectable differences. Anyone selling extra special expensive DACs, is selling snake oil.

It's the standard Audiophile nonsense that has been going on for ages. None of it passes muster from ABX testing.

It depends on a mix of snobbery and placebo effect from it's buyers.

Hipster is just the current word we use for snobs who overpay for their gear, to brag about later.
 
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You're completely missing the point that we aren't even talking about a DAC. Given the fact that you know I prefer my STX as a DAC over my Jotunheim due to specs.

We're talking about the amp portion, and this has nothing to do with placebo. Your receiver objectively can't drive some headphones properly, period. There is no way in hell a $300 receiver can do 750mw per channel, and if by some miracle it could it would have serious distortion and crosstalk.
 
hipsters being hipsters typically cant tell they are hipsters. Much like people that don't shower and stink don't think they stink.
 
opfreak said:
hipsters being hipsters typically cant tell they are hipsters. Much like people that don't shower and stink don't think they stink.
Click to expand...

People talking shit and bringing absolutely no numbers to the table.
 
Mchart said:
You're completely missing the point that we aren't even talking about a DAC. Given the fact that you know I prefer my STX as a DAC over my Jotunheim due to specs.

We're talking about the amp portion, and this has nothing to do with placebo. Your receiver objectively can't drive some headphones properly, period. There is no way in hell a $300 receiver can do 750mw per channel, and if by some miracle it could it would have serious distortion and crosstalk.
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Why not.

A typical HT receiver does about 75 watts/8 ohms.

This will give you 2 watts into 300 ohms and presents MUCH less load on the amp.

There is no reason that should be a problem of any sort, and plenty to deafen you.
 
opfreak said:
Ok where are the numbers that 400 dollar amps make sound better? I want test reports, not some person saying its amazing.
Click to expand...

Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
IMD: <0.0015%, CCIR
SNR: >109db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: >-70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz

Now, let me compare this to a random $500 Denon receiver. Receivers usually take the two channel front output and use that for the headphone jack.

A SNR of 98dB (Measured at the pre-amp; Amplified value not advertised), no clue what the crosstalk is but I can assure you it isn't pretty if we actually measured it, @ 8 ohms THD of 0.08% 20-20.. And that's all we get.

Now we have to remember that the receiver has some resistors in between the front channel and headphone jack output, adding even more noise in the process, and while in theory most receivers will have enough power to run even 600ohm cans - The distortion after reaching a decent volume level will almost certainly be noticeable and you will also likely have flabby bass among other things. It's OK for standard 16/32ohm headphones though.

The point is clear that even with a best case scenario using 16/32ohm headphones that receivers generally don't make very good headphone amps, and spec wise are already way off from what even a $100 portable headphone amp will give you.
 
Mchart said:
Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
IMD: <0.0015%, CCIR
SNR: >109db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: >-70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz

Now, let me compare this to a random $500 Denon receiver. Receivers usually take the two channel front output and use that for the headphone jack.

A SNR of 98dB (Measured at the pre-amp; Amplified value not advertised), no clue what the crosstalk is but I can assure you it isn't pretty if we actually measured it, @ 8 ohms THD of 0.08% 20-20.. And that's all we get.
Click to expand...

The difference is irrelevant. Human beings really can't hear anything at the numbers you show for the Denon. There is a point where getting better is irrelevant and we reached it decades ago as far as human beings and Audio go.


Now we have to remember that the receiver has some resistors in between the front channel and headphone jack output, adding even more noise in the process, and while in theory most receivers will have enough power to run even 600ohm cans - The distortion after reaching a decent volume level will almost certainly be noticeable and you will also likely have flabby bass among other things. It's OK for standard 16/32ohm headphones though.
Click to expand...

That's twice you made this claim without anything backing it. Even at the worse case, a 75W/8ohm amp can still pump 1 watt into 600 ohm headphones.

Considering these headphones are usually rated around 90db/1mw, one watt would be absurdly loud.
 
Brother, if you think you can't hear the difference more power to you. But at those levels it makes me wonder why you even bother then and don't just use the on-board audio of your motherboard which likely has similar/better stats in terms of distortion, and you obviously aren't using power hungry headphones that make the distortion problems more apparent at higher power levels.
 
Mchart said:
Brother, if you think you can't hear the difference more power to you. But at those levels it makes me wonder why you even bother then and don't just use the on-board audio of your motherboard which likely has similar/better stats in terms of distortion, and you obviously aren't using power hungry headphones that make the distortion problems more apparent at higher power levels.
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Yes, typical Audiophile snobbery. If you can't hear .08% distortion, you don't have proper golden ears. Total nonsense of course because no one can hear that level of distortion.

The THD numbers you quote for Schiit (?) are questionably low, so I looked for a review that actually measured a Schiit Amp.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...ed-amplifier-measurements#SeuY6qIFJwpiDc3s.97

It proved difficult to test, because of a strange bias circuit that would distort when playing continuous tones, so they had to play music switch to a test tone, get a quick measurement...


"I immediately switched to a 1kHz sinewave at approximately the same level (14Wpc), keeping one eye on the Audio Precision's THD+N reading and the other on the oscilloscope screen. The measured THD was around 0.7%, but of course it immediately began to rise."

.7% vs your < .001 % claim. Only 700X worse though. Only 10X worse than the Denon numbers.

The $1699 Schiit Ragnarok also failed to reach it's rated power.

Really nothing special when tested.
 
Snowdog said:
Yes, typical Audiophile snobbery. If you can't hear .08% distortion, you don't have proper golden ears. Total nonsense of course because no one can hear that level of distortion.

The THD numbers you quote for Schiit (?) are questionably low, so I looked for a review that actually measured a Schiit Amp.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...ed-amplifier-measurements#SeuY6qIFJwpiDc3s.97

It proved difficult to test, because of a strange bias circuit that would distort when playing continuous tones, so they had to play music switch to a test tone, get a quick measurement...


"I immediately switched to a 1kHz sinewave at approximately the same level (14Wpc), keeping one eye on the Audio Precision's THD+N reading and the other on the oscilloscope screen. The measured THD was around 0.7%, but of course it immediately began to rise."

.7% vs your < .001 % claim. Only 700X worse though. Only 10X worse than the Denon numbers.

The $1699 Schiit Ragnarok also failed to reach it's rated power.

Really nothing special when tested.
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Not anywhere near the same device, nor a device which i'd ever buy. Thanks?

You keep saying we can't hear any difference. Why are you using a $300 receiver for just headphones again? If you don't care about the stats what's wrong with the on-board audio of any PC w/ Intel HD Audio standards?
 
This thread is amusing.

I will weigh in though, and say that I've been using dedicated sound cards for quite some time now and continue to do so even now (Sound Blaster Z currently). I think it offers a lot over onboard in terms of features and flexibility...I also think it sounds better overall, but that could be a placebo as I haven't tested them side-by-side.

I have considered getting a headphone amp...I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile but I have spent $200+ on headphones/IEMs before, so probably moreso than a random user. I think I would likely prefer my SBZ for the Surround headphone capability, though. I wonder how well surround in gaming would work straight out of a DAC/headphone amp with no processing.

(And yes, I know that processing squashes the sound quite a bit, so I turn it off for music listening, but for gaming it feels essential to me...)
 
Mchart said:
Not anywhere near the same device, nor a device which i'd ever buy. Thanks?
Click to expand...

So now a $400 Schiit is better than $1700 Schiit? :rolleyes:

You keep saying we can't hear any difference. Why are you using a $300 receiver for just headphones again? If you don't care about the stats what's wrong with the on-board audio of any PC w/ Intel HD Audio standards?
Click to expand...

I never said I don't care about stats. I don't care about absurd stats. Claiming you can hear .08% THD in music playback, is like claiming you can hear 30KHz. It's BS.

I don't use my Denon receiver just for headphones, in fact I stated I use speakers 99% of the time.
 
MavericK said:
This thread is amusing.

I will weigh in though, and say that I've been using dedicated sound cards for quite some time now and continue to do so even now (Sound Blaster Z currently). I think it offers a lot over onboard in terms of features and flexibility...I also think it sounds better overall, but that could be a placebo as I haven't tested them side-by-side.

I have considered getting a headphone amp...I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile but I have spent $200+ on headphones/IEMs before, so probably moreso than a random user. I think I would likely prefer my SBZ for the Surround headphone capability, though. I wonder how well surround in gaming would work straight out of a DAC/headphone amp with no processing.

(And yes, I know that processing squashes the sound quite a bit, so I turn it off for music listening, but for gaming it feels essential to me...)
Click to expand...

I'm not doing anything special myself... just the Astro A40 (original version) with the mixamp getting Dolby Digital from the SB Zx over optical. It's been working great for a long time, so I have no complaints but in no way am I an audiophile though I do love hearing good surround sound.
 
MavericK said:
This thread is amusing.

I will weigh in though, and say that I've been using dedicated sound cards for quite some time now and continue to do so even now (Sound Blaster Z currently). I think it offers a lot over onboard in terms of features and flexibility...I also think it sounds better overall, but that could be a placebo as I haven't tested them side-by-side.

I have considered getting a headphone amp...I wouldn't consider myself an audiophile but I have spent $200+ on headphones/IEMs before, so probably moreso than a random user. I think I would likely prefer my SBZ for the Surround headphone capability, though. I wonder how well surround in gaming would work straight out of a DAC/headphone amp with no processing.

(And yes, I know that processing squashes the sound quite a bit, so I turn it off for music listening, but for gaming it feels essential to me...)
Click to expand...

You can unshackle yourself from a certain sound card brand by using the Razor virtual surround solution. Works with anything, and is free.
 
Further, many games come with their own processing built in- the Battlefield series is a decent example of this, going all the way back to Bad Company 2.
 
Soundblaster zx is a wallhack in audio terms. I have used the Razer. It is OK but not nearly as accurate and detailed.

Snowdog. Quit trolling. Numbers are just that until you actually experience something and hear the difference.
 
Mchart said:
Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
IMD: <0.0015%, CCIR
SNR: >109db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: >-70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz

Now, let me compare this to a random $500 Denon receiver. Receivers usually take the two channel front output and use that for the headphone jack.

A SNR of 98dB (Measured at the pre-amp; Amplified value not advertised), no clue what the crosstalk is but I can assure you it isn't pretty if we actually measured it, @ 8 ohms THD of 0.08% 20-20.. And that's all we get.

Now we have to remember that the receiver has some resistors in between the front channel and headphone jack output, adding even more noise in the process, and while in theory most receivers will have enough power to run even 600ohm cans - The distortion after reaching a decent volume level will almost certainly be noticeable and you will also likely have flabby bass among other things. It's OK for standard 16/32ohm headphones though.

The point is clear that even with a best case scenario using 16/32ohm headphones that receivers generally don't make very good headphone amps, and spec wise are already way off from what even a $100 portable headphone amp will give you.
Click to expand...

So you quote me manufacture numbers. Like that means jack or shit. Does this magic box make sound measurable and physical better? Proof? you anit got one, but since you paid for it, you'll defend it. You wouldn't want to admit you wasted money.
 
opfreak said:
So you quote me manufacture numbers. Like that means jack or shit. Does this magic box make sound measurable and physical better? Proof? you anit got one, but since you paid for it, you'll defend it. You wouldn't want to admit you wasted money.
Click to expand...

THD, SNR, crosstalk - These are all measurements able to be clarified with a simple oscilloscope. There are cheap amplifiers that are poorly designed with poor components, there are expensive amplifiers that are very well designed with top quality discrete components. The measurements are factual, they are real and they are quantifiable, as I've stated in the past it's the reason why no same person would use an amplifier designed for RF amplification for audio purposes.

So I'm wondering, what makes you think your opinion is correct when measured specifications state differently? Measured specifications are not 'Jack Shit'.
 
BulletDust said:
THD, SNR, crosstalk - These are all measurements able to be clarified with a simple oscilloscope. There are cheap amplifiers that are poorly designed with poor components, there are expensive amplifiers that are very well designed with top quality discrete components. The measurements are factual, they are real and they are quantifiable, as I've stated in the past it's the reason why no same person would use an amplifier designed for RF amplification for audio purposes.

So I'm wondering, what makes you think your opinion is correct when measured specifications state differently? Measured specifications are not 'Jack Shit'.
Click to expand...

What a company states and actually delivers are 2 different things. Did you read the review of the amp? the one poster above quoted the values THD was ".7% vs your < .001 % claim. Only 700X worse though"
 
opfreak said:
What a company states and actually delivers are 2 different things. Did you read the review of the amp? the one poster above quoted the values THD was ".7% vs your < .001 % claim. Only 700X worse though"
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I admit, I've read reviews on amplifiers and occasionally independent testing shows the official figures are bullshit. However, most of the time the specs are literally spot on as a result of independent testing, quite often the official specs are exceeded as a result of independent testing.

The fact remains that these figures are very real, they are very quantifiable and should by no means incorrectly be classed as jack shit in favour of your comparably immeasurable 'opinion'.
 
If Snowdog is trying to reply to me can someone inform him that he is on my block list due to his notoriously immature replies.
 
BulletDust said:
I admit, I've read reviews on amplifiers and occasionally independent testing shows the official figures are bullshit. However, most of the time the specs are literally spot on as a result of independent testing, quite often the official specs are exceeded as a result of independent testing.

The fact remains that these figures are very real, they are very quantifiable and should by no means incorrectly be classed as jack shit in favour of your comparably immeasurable 'opinion'.
Click to expand...

If they are off by 700x how are the figure not jack shit?
 
opfreak said:
If they are off by 700x how are the figure not jack shit?
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are talking about as I don't care to go sprawling through pages of shit in order to argue with an individual on the other side of the planet.

My point is that quantifiable measurements under laboratory conditions do not equate to jack shit in favour of one's opinion.

Perhaps the figures you're claiming weren't done at 1v RMS?
 
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