Who Killed PC Audio, and will Soundcards Ever Be a Thing Again?

BulletDust said:
I have no idea what you are talking about as I don't care to go sprawling through pages of shit in order to argue with an individual on the other side of the planet.

My point is that quantifiable measurements under laboratory conditions do not equate to jack shit in favour of one's opinion.

Perhaps the figures you're claiming weren't done at 1v RMS?
Click to expand...

Do you work for this company? have you ever read reviews of audio equipment? Rarely do marketing specs match really world testing. Someone testing a 1700 dollar amp and found that it did not match the specifications provided by the manufacture. And yet you continue to argue otherwise.

Sorry but no point in talking to you if you refuse to accept reality.
 
The thing with specifications on almost all audio devices is that they usually don't give out details about the load being driven. No impedance or other characteristics. Sometimes they'll provide the amplitude or SNR weighing method, but often no load. And that's the part that makes those on box specs drift all over the place.

As for external DACs and Amplifiers (both headphone and speakers) being a snob thing - I'd disagree. Breaking out that equipment away from the case lets you travel with it if you're a music nut. Also, it's way more comfortable for me to adjust settings on a small box sitting on my desk versus, say, leaving your game to change the volume.

Also, it's way easier to manage wires. You don't have to worry that your PC is sitting under a desk somewhere and the headphone wire/interconnect is being mangled and stretched.

Now, price wise - I have never heard anything beyond around 200$. But what's important to me is how the device is actually built. Take the old Audigy for example. 24 bit? BS! It was a resampled mess as you went down the signal path. So much for 'on the box' specs.

One thing that's missing in the Audio world that kind of irks me is the lack of calibration methods. Like with monitors, components drift over time. When I had my Yamaha amp, I was able to adjust the bias voltages so that good stereo was ensured. I can't do that on a soundcard. Same with amplification gain (sensitivity, not loudness).
 
spaceman said:
Soundblaster zx is a wallhack in audio terms. I have used the Razer. It is OK but not nearly as accurate and detailed.

Snowdog. Quit trolling. Numbers are just that until you actually experience something and hear the difference.
Click to expand...

It was actually one of the Audio gear snobs that started quoting numbers.

I just pointed out the actual test numbers instead of the untested ones supplied by the manufacturers marketing department.

I have experienced sound from my HT receiver and it is essentially perfect, as one would expect from any competently built amplifier from the last 2 decades.

This nonsense from the self proclaimed "golden ear" set is the same BS we have been seeing for decades in Audio.

You don't need special headphone only Amps to get great sound from your headphones.

It the same old, super expensive, specialized component nonsense, that when ABX tested produces no actual detectable difference.
 
grifter_66 said:
A $300 receiver is the audio equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger. If someone is happy with that then it's all good but it's no comparison to a good steakhouse burger. The amplification in the schiit is going to be far superior to any 5.1 receiver amplification under $800 or so.
Click to expand...
Yeah...I'm gonna require some proof for that.
 
Mchart said:
Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
IMD: <0.0015%, CCIR
SNR: >109db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: >-70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz

Now, let me compare this to a random $500 Denon receiver. Receivers usually take the two channel front output and use that for the headphone jack.

A SNR of 98dB (Measured at the pre-amp; Amplified value not advertised), no clue what the crosstalk is but I can assure you it isn't pretty if we actually measured it, @ 8 ohms THD of 0.08% 20-20.. And that's all we get.

Now we have to remember that the receiver has some resistors in between the front channel and headphone jack output, adding even more noise in the process, and while in theory most receivers will have enough power to run even 600ohm cans - The distortion after reaching a decent volume level will almost certainly be noticeable and you will also likely have flabby bass among other things. It's OK for standard 16/32ohm headphones though.

The point is clear that even with a best case scenario using 16/32ohm headphones that receivers generally don't make very good headphone amps, and spec wise are already way off from what even a $100 portable headphone amp will give you.
Click to expand...
So, sound wise they are identical except possible power issue with 600 Ohm headphones a dozen people use.
 
Respect.

My point is that there is a distinct difference when you incorporate specific parts.

An example is a bundle of boutique gear which garnered a specifically desired sound signature for Robert Plant when he was recording with Allison Krauss.

Headphile AKG 340s recabled and rewired with gold, Quest for Sound SQ-84 amp which utilized 6x6 tubes found in Marshall guitar amps. I sold this to the studio and the feedback was that they loved how warm their voices sounded. Was that warmth worth the $$? If it was Robert Plant with ego and money, sure. They really did make voices sound amazing and realistic. Like the signer was in the room.

You are right that simply using a receiver or in my case just a $50 SB Zx and a pair of modded Superlux HD 668s does awesomely.

Point is I would prefer the AKGs if I could get them back. They just sounded more real to me. A measurable difference? Maybe not but I will say there is a real distinct change in atmosphere when you change from open to closed headphones and from a properly matched amp to one not suited for a high impedance phone.
 
I don't use headphones as I need to hear what is going on in the house, kids, pets etc. While I'm sure someone could use a good AVR and quality speakers worth a lot of $$$ the real limiting factory is the room you are listening or playing in. I highly doubt it has been acoustically treated (absorption and diffusion) with optimal speaker placement.

I've seen a number of wealthy people buy expensive speakers and projectors only to paint bare walls beige and have a hardwood floor and think they have a great home theater. My treated, dark walled and light controlled room at a 10th of the cost will run circles around them.
 
MavericK said:
I will weigh in though, and say that I've been using dedicated sound cards for quite some time now and continue to do so even now (Sound Blaster Z currently). I think it offers a lot over onboard in terms of features and flexibility...I also think it sounds better overall, but that could be a placebo as I haven't tested them side-by-side.
Click to expand...
Up until recently I was using on board mobo sound (Realtek ALC898 chipset) and I happened to get a Soundblaster Z card for cheap and there is indeed a real and easily discernible difference.

Now the gotcha here with my personal experience is that the on board sound I was using was on a older (Z77 era) mobo and there is a huge difference from what was common for on board sound then vs new Z100 and Z200 era mobos now. Some of the newer mobos even with a Soundblaster chip of some sort right on the board by default. Its quite possible there is hardly any difference at all in practical terms but for older mobos it is definitely real.

FWIW to anyone reading I use headphones (Samson SR850's) which are good but not real good and definitely not amazing. My ears aren't good enough to justify spending $100+ on and for gaming/casual listening I don't think those high end headphones are worth it really either since you won't be able to hear the quality given the sound sources in either of those usages.

MavericK said:
I have considered getting a headphone amp...
Click to expand...
Unless you have golden ears with the excellent top end headphones and high quality sound sources to go along with them or your soundcard can't power your headphones properly I think they're a waste of money.
 
opfreak said:
What a company states and actually delivers are 2 different things. Did you read the review of the amp? the one poster above quoted the values THD was ".7% vs your < .001 % claim. Only 700X worse though"
Click to expand...

That wasn't even the same product. The reviews out there for the one we were actually talking about have shown better then advertised. Context here is key.
 
IMHO, the diminishing curve on your monetary investment occurs after the $300 or so range in headphones, and the same with headphone amps/DACS.

In other words, don't expect your Focal Elears to blow you away from your (for example) first Sennheiser HD 600/650, HiFiMan HE-400i/HE-400s, or Sony MDR-1A.
Headphones like the Elears/HE-1000/Mr. Speakers are great, and do have a noticeable difference, but aren't some gigantic revolutionary change in sound (the top-end Stax models have a very noticeable difference, but aren't some awe-inspiring object of radiant glory).
The three biggest positive changes for me, headphones-wise, were:

  • Going from crappy generic Walkman headphones to an AKG K240 (huge change in clarity, detail, soundscape, and comfort)
  • Sennheiser PC 360 (essentially, a slightly tweaked Sennheiser HD 558 w/mic) to Audio-Technica ATH-AG1 (essentially, a slightly tweaked Audio-Technica ATH-A700x w/mic). Again, the clarity/detail/soundscape was a big upgrade. Comfort was improved, too (especially via the easy headband mod).
  • Audio-Technica ATH-AG1 to HiFiMan HE-400i: This was a gigantic change. Soundscape was a bit-and-a-half smaller, but the detail, clarity, and intimacy were ridiculously improved, and the sub-bass was tighter, more detailed, and boomier. Very slightly less comfortable on the HE-400i end, but not really a significant factor. The 400i is a definite keeper for me.
Currently, I'm using a Beyerdynamic Amiron, and (so far) it fits everything I need in a headphone (work/gaming/movies/music). Plus, it's the most comfortable headphone I've ever used.
 
Design1stcode2nd said:
I've seen a number of wealthy people buy expensive speakers and projectors only to paint bare walls beige and have a hardwood floor and think they have a great home theater. My treated, dark walled and light controlled room at a 10th of the cost will run circles around them.
Click to expand...

That'll be the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor), the tradeoff between a hometheater and what the wifey wants. The struggle is real. ;)
 
tungt88 said:
IMHO, the diminishing curve on your monetary investment occurs after the $300 or so range in headphones, and the same with headphone amps/DACS.

In other words, don't expect your Focal Elears to blow you away from your (for example) first Sennheiser HD 600/650, HiFiMan HE-400i/HE-400s, or Sony MDR-1A.
Headphones like the Elears/HE-1000/Mr. Speakers are great, and do have a noticeable difference, but aren't some gigantic revolutionary change in sound (the top-end Stax models have a very noticeable difference, but aren't some awe-inspiring object of radiant glory).
The three biggest positive changes for me, headphones-wise, were:

  • Going from crappy generic Walkman headphones to an AKG K240 (huge change in clarity, detail, soundscape, and comfort)
  • Sennheiser PC 360 (essentially, a slightly tweaked Sennheiser HD 558 w/mic) to Audio-Technica ATH-AG1 (essentially, a slightly tweaked Audio-Technica ATH-A700x w/mic). Again, the clarity/detail/soundscape was a big upgrade. Comfort was improved, too (especially via the easy headband mod).
  • Audio-Technica ATH-AG1 to HiFiMan HE-400i: This was a gigantic change. Soundscape was a bit-and-a-half smaller, but the detail, clarity, and intimacy were ridiculously improved, and the sub-bass was tighter, more detailed, and boomier. Very slightly less comfortable on the HE-400i end, but not really a significant factor. The 400i is a definite keeper for me.
Currently, I'm using a Beyerdynamic Amiron, and (so far) it fits everything I need in a headphone (work/gaming/movies/music). Plus, it's the most comfortable headphone I've ever used.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with this. I have some LCD-2's, but if i'm honest they weren't worth what they are over my HE-400i's.

HE-400i's are pretty outstanding for the money. You can pick t hem up from high $200's-$300's new if you look around. Really outstanding for that type of money.
 
i got the RAREST RARE black coated schiit stack, so i'm the most hipster of them all.
 
Speakers/headphones are a completely different story from DACs/amplifiers.
 
Mchart said:
Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
IMD: <0.0015%, CCIR
SNR: >109db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: >-70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz

Now, let me compare this to a random $500 Denon receiver. Receivers usually take the two channel front output and use that for the headphone jack.

A SNR of 98dB (Measured at the pre-amp; Amplified value not advertised), no clue what the crosstalk is but I can assure you it isn't pretty if we actually measured it, @ 8 ohms THD of 0.08% 20-20.. And that's all we get.

Now we have to remember that the receiver has some resistors in between the front channel and headphone jack output, adding even more noise in the process, and while in theory most receivers will have enough power to run even 600ohm cans - The distortion after reaching a decent volume level will almost certainly be noticeable and you will also likely have flabby bass among other things. It's OK for standard 16/32ohm headphones though.

The point is clear that even with a best case scenario using 16/32ohm headphones that receivers generally don't make very good headphone amps, and spec wise are already way off from what even a $100 portable headphone amp will give you.
Click to expand...
My $40 Soundblaster Z specs:

SNR: 116dB advertised, 100.9 per techpowerup review
THD: 0.0072 per techpowerup.
IMD: 0.0076 per techpowerup
Crosstalk: -99.3 dB per techpowerup

So apparently some of your stats (Not crosstalk!) are slightly better than a $40 soundcard. Congrats! Though I'd like to see if techpowerups measurements are as good as your source's.

I'll admit I have no idea how well they would power your fancy headphones. They do sound great with my $220 Sennheisers.
 
Last edited:
Domingo said:
Pretty sure you don't need a 5.1 amp for a headset. I think most of them just use USB. An AVR is for multi-channel speaker configurations and decoding multi-channel audio streams. If you're rocking headphones, you can skip that step.
Click to expand...


This is essentially a 5.1 external speaker setup that doesn't need AMPed power output.


The headphones have separate 3.5mm jacks for Center, L/R, and L/R Rear. They also have a USB plug that is for additional power to handle the independent drivers.
 
delita said:
i got the RAREST RARE black coated schiit stack, so i'm the most hipster of them all.
Click to expand...
DocSavage said:
My $40 Soundblaster Z specs:

SNR: 116dB advertised, 100.9 per techpowerup review
THD: 0.0072 per techpowerup.
IMD: 0.0076 per techpowerup
Crosstalk: -99.3 dB per techpowerup

So apparently some of your stats (Not crosstalk!) are slightly better than a $40 soundcard. Congrats! Though I'd like to see if techpowerups measurements are as good as your source's.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, it's why I use my STX as the DAC w/ the Jotunheim as just the amp. I bypass the shit integrated AMP by using the pre-amp L/R jacks on the STX. The small IC headphone amps on Soundcards unfortunately aren't the greatest.

You see, you keep giving me a hassle when I've already agreed that certain things are better for certain things. I don't view the world in black and white. I still realize there is some benefit to a standalone headphone amp, and I also have some higher-end headphones that benefit from the power the Jotunheim can push over the balanced output. I also realize that the DAC's on some sound cards are actually /really good/; It's just that the amp sections of the sound cards really isn't enough.

It's why i'd personally never buy some overly expensive external DAC. I got the DAC module on the Jotunheim only because my Laptop needed some sort of solution, so it made sense to get the module for that. ($100 for the module, or $100 on a different external DAC; I'd rather take the module and just have 1 device) Viewed as just a headphone amp the Jotunheim offers way more then the competition for the money, and that's why I got it. It's also why i'd never buy any other Schiit product. None of their other shit interests me, and generally does seem overpriced for what it is. You guys are writing off a really good headphone amp just because of the rest of the brand though. Just because a company isn't that great in one product category doesn't mean i'm going to completely bias them if they do happen to make a competitive product that is relevant to me.
 
Last edited:
BulletDust said:
That'll be the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor), the tradeoff between a hometheater and what the wifey wants. The struggle is real. ;)
Click to expand...

No shit man you are correct.

That's why I rock the headphones and the water-cooling. Outta sight outta mind only works on a wife when you throw in out of earshot as well.
 
Last edited:
Mchart said:
Absolutely, it's why I use my STX w/ the Jotunheim as just the amp. The small IC amps on Soundcards unfortunately aren't the greatest and generally don't do the greatest job.

You see, you keep giving me a hassle when I've already agreed that certain things are better for certain things. I don't view the world in black and white. I still realize there is some benefit to a standalone headphone amp, and I also have some higher-end headphones that benefit from the power the Jotunheim can push over the balanced output.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I amended my post with respect to your needs. It's like when I got my 2560x1600 30" monitor 10 years ago and video cards couldn't really run it well. I had to buy a top of the line video card just to have acceptable performance.
 
All I know is when I built my latest rig last year I was getting popping, crackling, and some other BS through my X-Fi Titanium (it was aging). I said screw it, went external, never looked back. Couldn't be happier. To each his own, though.
 
delita said:
All I know is when I built my latest rig last year I was getting popping, crackling, and some other BS through my X-Fi Titanium (it was aging). I said screw it, went external, never looked back. Couldn't be happier. To each his own, though.
Click to expand...

This points to a ground issue and/or issue with the PSU.

And while the ZXR has some great hardware - The analog stage isn't fed separately from the PCI power. The STX has a molex connector that feeds power for the analog side of the board.
 
Mchart said:
This points to a ground issue and/or issue with the PSU.

And while the ZXR has some great hardware - The analog stage isn't fed separately from the PCI power. The STX has a molex connector that feeds power for the analog side of the board.
Click to expand...
I had a similarly unstable x-fi. They just didn't seem to reliable in my experience. Once it locked up while emitting an ear-piercing shriek through my rather loud klipsch computer speakers. The couple of seconds to turn down the speakers felt like an eternity to my poor ears. So far my sound blaster z has had zero issues, knock on wood.
 
DocSavage said:
I had a similarly unstable x-fi. They just didn't seem to reliable in my experience. Once it locked up while emitting an ear-piercing shriek through my rather loud klipsch computer speakers. The couple of seconds to turn down the speakers felt like an eternity to my poor ears. So far my sound blaster z has had zero issues, knock on wood.
Click to expand...

I remember when I was young my Uncle was an A/V salesman. He had a fairly substantial HiFi for the day consisting of a Crown/Amcron DC300A power amplifier and fairly sizeable Cerwin Vega speakers. One time we were cranking Dire Straits while the parents were away and one of the RCA leads rattled free from the rear of the pre amp and shorted out producing a huge feedback type noise. Of course we raced for the power amp and punched the huge power switch off, producing a loud thump (no dethumping logic in those days!) that instantly melted the voice coils on the Cerwin Vega 12" woofers seizing them rock solid.

Anyone that knows anything about audio will tell you that 12" Cerwin Vega woofers are fairly hard to kill - Well we killed them with Dire Straits!

My uncle was not happy, not happy at all.
 
BulletDust said:
I remember when I was young my Uncle was an A/V salesman. He had a fairly substantial HiFi for the day consisting of a Crown/Amcron DC300A power amplifier and fairly sizeable Cerwin Vega speakers. One time we were cranking Dire Straits while the parents were away and one of the RCA leads rattled free from the rear of the pre amp and shorted out producing a huge feedback type noise. Of course we raced for the power amp and punched the huge power switch off, producing a loud thump (no dethumping logic in those days!) that instantly melted the voice coils on the Cerwin Vega 12" woofers seizing them rock solid.

Anyone that knows anything about audio will tell you that 12" Cerwin Vega woofers are fairly hard to kill - Well we killed them with Dire Straits!

My uncle was not happy, not happy at all.
Click to expand...
Bad ass. I still have 12" Cerwin Vegas hooked up to my TV/receiver -- DX-7s from the 90s and they still sound beautiful. Those speakers are rated for up to 250 watts, so your uncle must have had a helacious system.
 
DocSavage said:
Bad ass. I still have 12" Cerwin Vegas hooked up to my TV/receiver -- DX-7s from the 90s and they still sound beautiful. Those speakers are rated for up to 250 watts, so your uncle must have had a helacious system.
Click to expand...

I've always had a soft spot for the Cerwin's. In the day the system was very impressive, the Crown DC300A power amplifier was a hefty unit in itself!
 
BulletDust said:
That'll be the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor), the tradeoff between a hometheater and what the wifey wants. The struggle is real. ;)
Click to expand...

True, true, I put up with that for about 15 years then I just said I'm taking back the basement and doing what I want and now she loves the dedicated theater. One of maybe 3 times in 20 years I've ever been right (according to her).

She thinks my PC is ridiculous as well but it's in the basement as well so she doesn't care.

Back on top I tried a pair of inexpensive superlux headphones I got my daughter for xmas and you can hear a lot more detail and nuances during a game. Now most of that may be just because it is a headphone. I did try some old crappy gaming headphones and the sound quality was much less but teh detail still seemed to be there.

After a half hour though the superluxes were putting too much pressure around my ears so had to take them off. I may have to try something else.
 
Design1stcode2nd said:
After a half hour though the superluxes were putting too much pressure around my ears so had to take them off. I may have to try something else.
Click to expand...

This is common; they essentially need to be 'broken in' to the wearer's head. Doing this right now with my HD600's.
 
Design1stcode2nd said:
True, true, I put up with that for about 15 years then I just said I'm taking back the basement and doing what I want and now she loves the dedicated theater. One of maybe 3 times in 20 years I've ever been right (according to her).
Click to expand...

So envious of you Americans and your basements.... :(
 
schizrade said:
This, Creative did more to kill it than MS.
Click to expand...

Yep, my 7.1 Gigaworks surround system that can't be used any more, even by their own cards, because the bitches merged channels into cables. That is if you were lucky enough that the glue wouldn't melt on the subwoofer or it wouldn't just out and out blow where the fuse change no longer does anything.
 
Dan_D said:
We don't all have them. In Texas, almost no one has a basement. Our soil here isn't conducive to having a basement.
Click to expand...

It's very dependent on location, you don't see them in the south, probably because land tends to be cheaper so it's just as cost effective to build a larger home (or in Florida they would just flood). Also I think the soil in the southwest is very hard isn't it so it's expensive to cut into?
 
Design1stcode2nd said:
It's very dependent on location, you don't see them in the south, probably because land tends to be cheaper so it's just as cost effective to build a larger home (or in Florida they would just flood). Also I think the soil in the southwest is very hard isn't it so it's expensive to cut into?
Click to expand...

It's more like basements just aren't cost effective unless you already have to dig that deep anyway to stay below the frost line.

I have never visited a house in Canada, without a basement. If you have to put your foundation 5 feet down to get below the frost line, you may as well go a little deeper and use it for living space.

https://www.leaf.tv/articles/the-best-foundation-for-a-cold-climate/
 
Dan_D said:
We don't all have them. In Texas, almost no one has a basement. Our soil here isn't conducive to having a basement.
Click to expand...

Really?

They're very rare down here in Australia and they're one of the best environments for a hometheater.
 
BulletDust said:
Really?

They're very rare down here in Australia and they're one of the best environments for a hometheater.
Click to expand...

Really. Texans don't get them. In Arizona they are common place. It just depends on the part of the country you are in.
 
Dan_D said:
Really. Texans don't get them. In Arizona they are common place. It just depends on the part of the country you are in.
Click to expand...
You'd think underground houses would be all the rave with Texas air conditioning bills, though modern insulation has maybe solved that.
 
DocSavage said:
You'd think underground houses would be all the rave with Texas air conditioning bills, though modern insulation has maybe solved that.
Click to expand...

It's because of the soil here. Building anything that will last on it is a challenge. Basements are problematic here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top