Who Killed PC Audio, and will Soundcards Ever Be a Thing Again?

It's more like basements just aren't cost effective unless you already have to dig that deep anyway to stay below the frost line.

I have never visited a house in Canada, without a basement. If you have to put your foundation 5 feet down to get below the frost line, you may as well go a little deeper and use it for living space.

https://www.leaf.tv/articles/the-best-foundation-for-a-cold-climate/
on the coasts, islands, and around the cananadian shield homes usually don't have basements but pretty much everywhere else ive been has em. oh and "mobile" homes.

You'd think underground houses would be all the rave with Texas air conditioning bills, though modern insulation has maybe solved that.

It's because of the soil here. Building anything that will last on it is a challenge. Basements are problematic here.
they say a true adobe home is like living in a basement and texas has pretty lax rules on em....
 
Who killed PC audio?
That is a 2 parter, #1 Creative with crappy driver support, sometimes dropping products right after launch for a new one, even when they still have problems (I'm looking at you Audigy); and #2 affordable and good DACs (O2 ODAC), even a cheap DAC with a regular pair of headphone will last you through several builds, until you want to step up your game and not because the vendor dropped support (or you managed to brake a connector on your DAC).

Will soundcards ever be a thing again?
Personally speaking, no, I've had nothing but bad experiences with sound cards and sound card vendors and I was so happy to discover DACs, if your just a gamer and not an audiophile the "HD Audio" onboard is fine, a nice upgrade would be a FiiO E10K, wanna throw some more money at it, get an Obective O2 ODAC/AMP and you'll be happy for years. If your an "audiophile" well you'll step into a whole new world.
 
I still have a soundcard from 1999 using 32 bit PCI Slot.
Outstanding recording studio not to mention Surround 5.1 Effects to place anywhere in the soundfield.

In case you really want something with incredible capabilities these go used on eBay for a few hundred usually.

Creamware or SonicCore Pro DSP Card with 15 x SHARC DSP Processors.
They use to go for 6000 USD.

I use their newer DSP Rack, more DSPs, all newer ADSP-21369 x18.
Pretty sick stuff, but if you want to make your own Album and Video it's an excellent platform.

Below is a Tube Mixer, the 32 x input/ 32 x output converters ( FireWire)
FPGA Module
DSP Rack
FX unit
Power distribution
4U i7 @ 4.8ghz using custom AIO Watercooling
2 x insanely powerful 120mm intakes
2 x powerful out take 80mm fans

Loud as a Shop Vac.
Bad ass Audio though...

IMG_0232.JPG
 
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I think sound cards will probably always exist in some form or fashion for the PC, so long as the platform keeps its current basic form. Since people rarely seem all that concerned with positional audio though, the benefits a dedicated sound card provide are harder and harder to justify. Onboard audio is better than ever and its improving with each generation or so. Motherboards now sometimes have anywhere between 1 and 3 OP-AMPs. Sometimes these are user replaceable or you end up with a programmable OP-AMP of sorts as is the case with the ROG motherboards.
 
PC audio has never been better now that we no longer need overpriced sound cards with shitty drivers. My PC is the center of my home theater and with a single HDMI cable from my video card I get exceptional audio from both games and movies. I have better positional audio now than I ever have, Starwars Battlefront sounds amazing in Atmos.

That's because your surround receiver is your sound card. That's where the DAC and the 3D positioning logic reside.

You've just taken the cost from inside the PC and moved it outside :p
 
Since people rarely seem all that concerned with positional audio though, the benefits a dedicated sound card provide are harder and harder to justify.
I feel as though this comes down to the fact that the primary audience for everything these days are geared towards games who are too young to have ever experienced Hardware Audio with true 3D Positional Audio :( Everyone just wears headphones now and act like that's the only way you can head where someone is coming from during a fight. HRTF has come a long ways, but it still doesn't compare to what Aureal3D could pull off with just a 4.1 setup. Hell, even EAX is better than HRTF, and EAX sucked compared to A3D!

Thus why I stand firm that the death knell for 3D positional audio was first due to Creative buying Aureal and burying A3D. Then M$ filled in the grave when they ditched HAL in Vista. Fingers crossed that the bare-metal access with Graphics Cards will be afforded to Sound Cards! (y)
 
So basically sound cards are in a similar position as stand alone digital cameras; their function has been incorporated into another device, leaving them no market.
 
the discussion in the video centered around Creative-type audio (sound card) and on-board stuff (mobo audio). I did not hear anyone mention the audio that comes through the GPU card (HDMI). Why would they leave that out?

Anyways, the way I see it, just like with the more recent PC games, audio is following suite (aka, you get less for paying more)
 
So basically sound cards are in a similar position as stand alone digital cameras; their function has been incorporated into another device, leaving them no market.
Eeeh not so much, in that regard. While smartphone cameras have gotten very good in quality, they will still always lack a few key things, even compared to a cheap "Point and Shoot"... First and foremost is they do not have zoomable optics, which limits the range they can take a detailed photo at. Sure you can take a fair picture of something a few hundred feet away, so long as you don't need to make out fine details. They'll take great panoramic pics, especially thanks to camera apps that'll auto-stitch the images together on the fly. Macro shots are a similar issue, and because of the lack of any real lens, you aren't able to get in really close.
For example... This is a Canon PowerShot A630 8MP from 2006... It's really nothing special with its 4x zoom, but it sure does have some macro capability. I took these freehand quick with the thing set to "Manual" mode and then used the "Manual Focus" macro settings (despite what it sounds, this is not a DSLR), but again freehand and not zoomed any, so excuse the lighting. (Do note, these are cropped)
As opened in Photo Viewer:
Chipset-Out.png

And "Actual Size":
Chipset-Actual.png

Granted, I don't keep up with what something like the Pixel 2 can accomplish, but if any cell phone camera is capable of pulling in that close and getting that fine of detail, with no macro lens, I'll eat that chip lol


But I digress... While the vast majority of people will indeed think of it like you do, that the cell cameras have muscled out the P&S cameras, I personally don't find them quite that capable to have done so. I'm not even a photographer, I just appreciate image quality and clarity :p
 
Eeeh not so much, in that regard. While smartphone cameras have gotten very good in quality, they will still always lack a few key things
Perhaps I should have said, for 99.99% of the population, phone cameras appear to be more than adequate; they even make zoom and macro clip on lenses for them. Professionals and amateur photographers will surely find all sorts of things to play with, but the convenience of having a phone in your pocket simply makes it much less likely that the average say, vacation goer will haul along something they used to strap around their neck or weigh down their pocket with the phone already there.
Creative Drivers killed Creative Sound Cards
Damn, you just described my last adventure with the Audigy with the 5.25 front panel thing that never worked right no matter which drivers and software I installed. Add to that the software included all sorts of things I didn't need, and it was my last separate soundcard.
 
External DACs/soundcards are still very much a thing for those who mainly use headphones. Analog from integrated still can't match external solutions, despite the number of gold colored capacitors on the motherboard.
 
Perhaps I should have said, for 99.99% of the population, phone cameras appear to be more than adequate; they even make zoom and macro clip on lenses for them. Professionals and amateur photographers will surely find all sorts of things to play with, but the convenience of having a phone in your pocket simply makes it much less likely that the average say, vacation goer will haul along something they used to strap around their neck or weigh down their pocket with the phone already there.

Damn, you just described my last adventure with the Audigy with the 5.25 front panel thing that never worked right no matter which drivers and software I installed. Add to that the software included all sorts of things I didn't need, and it was my last separate soundcard.

Creative Labs has much to answer for, don't they. That f'in Audigy was what killed it for me as well.
 
the discussion in the video centered around Creative-type audio (sound card) and on-board stuff (mobo audio). I did not hear anyone mention the audio that comes through the GPU card (HDMI). Why would they leave that out?

Anyways, the way I see it, just like with the more recent PC games, audio is following suite (aka, you get less for paying more)

HDMI doesn't generate audio, it carries audio data out. Something else processes it.
 
Creative Labs has much to answer for, don't they. That f'in Audigy was what killed it for me as well.
Drivers were bad for years, but audigy was sort of the last straw for me too, and the last time I intentionally bought a creative product anyway.

Bloatware Creative drivers took a full two hours to install at one point on a fresh windows install. (Pentium 4 @3.0ghz, Velicraptor 10,000 RPM drive). Absolutely absurd. I ranted about it on the forum here years ago. I’ll dig that up.
 
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My historic rants against Creative
(And I owned basically every card they made through Audigy)

2004
https://hardforum.com/threads/creative-sucks.842453/

2010
https://hardforum.com/threads/even-...ive-x-fi-titanium-sounds-really-good.1506649/


If not for my take for the few pages of others views in those respective eras.


Anymore I just use onboard. I don’t think anyone could tell the difference these days in a blind test with high quality onboard audio capability (> 110 or 115dB SNR, etc). unless you use high impedance headphones.
 
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My historic rants against Creative
(And I owned basically every card they made through Audigy)

2004
https://hardforum.com/threads/creative-sucks.842453/

2010
https://hardforum.com/threads/even-...ive-x-fi-titanium-sounds-really-good.1506649/


If not for my take for the few pages of others views in those respective eras.


Anymore I just use onboard. I don’t think anyone could tell the difference these days in a blind test with high quality onboard audio capability (> 110 or 115dB SNR, etc). unless you use high impedance headphones.
8 channel analog out from the motherboard vs 8 channel analog out from my eclaro. I have done this exact "comparison" and the eclaro blows MB audio away.
 
I don’t think anyone could tell the difference these days in a blind test with high quality onboard audio capability (> 110 or 115dB SNR, etc). unless you use high impedance headphones.
Audiophile equipment is way over rated. Blind side by side tests back in the 90's showed that many of even the most snobby audiophiles couldn't tell the difference between plenty of mid range stuff and the $$$$$ custom made things. Henry Kloss himself once compared his own Acoustic Research speakers with a pair of Radio Shack Realistic ones, and they found that with a 10 band equalizer, they could make the cheap speakers sound just as good as the expensive ones. That interview was in Stereophile magazine. After that, I never purchased expensive audio equipment ever again. I sold my Klipschorns the next time I moved, not wanting to drag the heavy speakers around another time. Replaced them with a pair of bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin Vega subwoofer.

Even the 128kbts mp3s are more than adequate for common rock, RnB, rap, and pretty much almost everything else, especially since much of that listening is geared towards the lower end of the spectrum of sound, as well as the fact that a good deal of THAT listening is alcohol affected. After ole' Henry's admission, I started playing CD's and mp3s side by side to see my friend's opinions. None of them could tell the difference either. While I'm sure that somewhere, there are people with ears good enough for it, I don't know any of them, and we get to save a ton of money by knowing that our listening experience isn't going to be better just because we sink many thousands of dollars into it.

Had Creative managed to get their act together, and get all the software and hardware to work with the other manufacturers stuff, it's very likely that today I'd still be buying their soundcards, with the fancy faceplate, input/output jacks, knobs, and everything that went with it. But at some point, many just get tired of reinstalling stuff in the attempt to get it to work, when we just wanted to listen to the music.
 
Audiophile equipment is way over rated. Blind side by side tests back in the 90's showed that many of even the most snobby audiophiles couldn't tell the difference between plenty of mid range stuff and the $$$$$ custom made things. Henry Kloss himself once compared his own Acoustic Research speakers with a pair of Radio Shack Realistic ones, and they found that with a 10 band equalizer, they could make the cheap speakers sound just as good as the expensive ones. That interview was in Stereophile magazine. After that, I never purchased expensive audio equipment ever again. I sold my Klipschorns the next time I moved, not wanting to drag the heavy speakers around another time. Replaced them with a pair of bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin Vega subwoofer.

Even the 128kbts mp3s are more than adequate for common rock, RnB, rap, and pretty much almost everything else, especially since much of that listening is geared towards the lower end of the spectrum of sound, as well as the fact that a good deal of THAT listening is alcohol affected. After ole' Henry's admission, I started playing CD's and mp3s side by side to see my friend's opinions. None of them could tell the difference either. While I'm sure that somewhere, there are people with ears good enough for it, I don't know any of them, and we get to save a ton of money by knowing that our listening experience isn't going to be better just because we sink many thousands of dollars into it.

Had Creative managed to get their act together, and get all the software and hardware to work with the other manufacturers stuff, it's very likely that today I'd still be buying their soundcards, with the fancy faceplate, input/output jacks, knobs, and everything that went with it. But at some point, many just get tired of reinstalling stuff in the attempt to get it to work, when we just wanted to listen to the music.

I went DAC/AMP combo a while back and wouldn't have it any other way. I still have my X-Fi Titanium installed in my rig but it's just a optical passthrough at this point.
 
Anymore I just use onboard. I don’t think anyone could tell the difference these days in a blind test with high quality onboard audio capability (> 110 or 115dB SNR, etc). unless you use high impedance headphones.

Depends on how noisy the inside of your case is.

When the on board sound operates under ideal conditions you are probably right, but there is a lot of stuff going on inside a computer.

When I run off of the on board sound in my system, I can hear my pump noise and the movement of my mouse across my screen over my speakers or headphones.

When I use an optically isolated DAC, this problem goes away.
 
Audiophile equipment is way over rated. Blind side by side tests back in the 90's showed that many of even the most snobby audiophiles couldn't tell the difference between plenty of mid range stuff and the $$$$$ custom made things. Henry Kloss himself once compared his own Acoustic Research speakers with a pair of Radio Shack Realistic ones, and they found that with a 10 band equalizer, they could make the cheap speakers sound just as good as the expensive ones. That interview was in Stereophile magazine. After that, I never purchased expensive audio equipment ever again. I sold my Klipschorns the next time I moved, not wanting to drag the heavy speakers around another time. Replaced them with a pair of bookshelf speakers and a Cerwin Vega subwoofer.

Even the 128kbts mp3s are more than adequate for common rock, RnB, rap, and pretty much almost everything else, especially since much of that listening is geared towards the lower end of the spectrum of sound, as well as the fact that a good deal of THAT listening is alcohol affected. After ole' Henry's admission, I started playing CD's and mp3s side by side to see my friend's opinions. None of them could tell the difference either. While I'm sure that somewhere, there are people with ears good enough for it, I don't know any of them, and we get to save a ton of money by knowing that our listening experience isn't going to be better just because we sink many thousands of dollars into it.

Had Creative managed to get their act together, and get all the software and hardware to work with the other manufacturers stuff, it's very likely that today I'd still be buying their soundcards, with the fancy faceplate, input/output jacks, knobs, and everything that went with it. But at some point, many just get tired of reinstalling stuff in the attempt to get it to work, when we just wanted to listen to the music.


I think you are mostly right, but I see it more as a game of diminishing returns.

Go from a computer speaker in a box system to a mid range amp and speakers, and it will be a nice improvement, but you very quickly hit the point of diminishing returns. The high end car priced audio-jewelry territory is just nuts, and more for bragging rights than for actual sound quality.

For an Audiophile 2 channel system I'd argue that there really is no reason to go much above ~$1,000 in budget for new stuff, and much less if you are open to going used. At this point you are pretty much topped out.

Get a pair of decent bookshelves for ~$300 (I'd go with RBH's new entry level R5 bookshelves)
Get a sub for about $500 (I'd go with one of the sealed entry level SVS subs, like the SB-1000)
Get an amp for about $200-$300 (Emotivas entry level amps are great. If you want something with a volume knob, the $229 A100 should do the trick, if you prefer power amps, the $299 A-150 is a great choice, but then you need a pre-amp for volume control)

And that's pretty much it. If you have a noisy PC and feel the need for an external DAC, add a cheap one.

This is a solid mid-range build, and I'm betting that even the snootiest golden-eared audiophile couldn't tell the difference between this and some of that car priced audio jewelry.

As mentioned before, If you are willing to take your time, and troll criagslist for a few months, you can build something at this solid midrange level for a steal.
 
Only reason to buy a AIC sound card is if the optical out on your motherboard is dead.
Even then, when I found out my motherboard had a spdif header, I went with a breakout board, instead of my sound blaster x-fi titanium HD. I now have optical and coaxial.


Well, now I use HDMI from my GPU.

The deciding factor was not wanting yet another massive driver package on my PC.
 
I also can't help but notice that most people are referring to just sound-producing methods, and not the initial focus of 3D Audio APIs and their positional audio capabilities, specifically "hardware accelerated" by a dedicated chip. That's something that a DAC (USB or Optical), external amp, etc aren't capable of producing (I don't count the Dolby Pro Logic II or IIx, etc). We've always had non-accelerated means of sound cards available, and some of them did have ""support"" for like EAX 1 and 2, but it was in software which the sound card didn't even handle at all (offloaded on the CPU). That's what was a side benefit of the 3D sound cards as well, is they were the ones doing the processing, which in turn meant an increase in FPS since it freed up the CPU.

Granted, back then we weren't using multi-core CPUs, and if we were really lucky maybe SMP, so these days the 2-5% increase in CPU cycles for crude software-based positional audio isn't that big of a deal... At least in the way current games incorporate it, which still doesn't compare to what the hardware positional audio sounded like in ye olde days lol
 
I also can't help but notice that most people are referring to just sound-producing methods, and not the initial focus of 3D Audio APIs and their positional audio capabilities, specifically "hardware accelerated" by a dedicated chip. That's something that a DAC (USB or Optical), external amp, etc aren't capable of producing (I don't count the Dolby Pro Logic II or IIx, etc). We've always had non-accelerated means of sound cards available, and some of them did have ""support"" for like EAX 1 and 2, but it was in software which the sound card didn't even handle at all (offloaded on the CPU). That's what was a side benefit of the 3D sound cards as well, is they were the ones doing the processing, which in turn meant an increase in FPS since it freed up the CPU.

Granted, back then we weren't using multi-core CPUs, and if we were really lucky maybe SMP, so these days the 2-5% increase in CPU cycles for crude software-based positional audio isn't that big of a deal... At least in the way current games incorporate it, which still doesn't compare to what the hardware positional audio sounded like in ye olde days lol
Exactly, crude being the keyword. Positional audio is something that devolved in the pc. A sad waste. I used A3d, with headphones it was great (with speakers is was good if you were well positioned.... I imagined a future of smart sound where 2 speakers would be enough, and maybe a sensor to know your specific position to customize the sounds, all of which is possible today on the very cheap at least for the sensors... The system might need calibration and stuff like that, but i think these things are possible.... Instead we got little progress. Sad. I don't know if there are adaptative sound system, with advanced positional API and hardware acceleration, maybe they are niche or something.
 
I never have been impressed with positional audio on the PC. At least not since the early EAX days. About the only thing they have down pat is making the dialogue come from different speakers when you look around wildly. It's basically never coming from the right direction unless the person talking or doing something is directly in front.
It's too bad because the consoles don't seem to have the same problems even with the same game.
 
I never have been impressed with positional audio on the PC. At least not since the early EAX days. About the only thing they have down pat is making the dialogue come from different speakers when you look around wildly. It's basically never coming from the right direction unless the person talking or doing something is directly in front.
It's too bad because the consoles don't seem to have the same problems even with the same game.
Eax was garbage.
 
Exactly, crude being the keyword. Positional audio is something that devolved in the pc. A sad waste. I used A3d, with headphones it was great (with speakers is was good if you were well positioned.... I imagined a future of smart sound where 2 speakers would be enough, and maybe a sensor to know your specific position to customize the sounds, all of which is possible today on the very cheap at least for the sensors... The system might need calibration and stuff like that, but i think these things are possible.... Instead we got little progress. Sad. I don't know if there are adaptative sound system, with advanced positional API and hardware acceleration, maybe they are niche or something.
You know, that's a great idea, with "smart detection". While less than ideal in a desktop situation, a webcam would be easily able to pull off what you're after, by detecting user distance and making a rough calculation on where they are, just for initial setup. Beyond that, and more suitable for a desktop, would be using the Microphone to configure that. There already are certain things that utilize that, or at least prior to the more recent builds of Win10, as there used to be a feature called "Room Correction" which says "Room Correction compensates for room and speaker characteristics". What it does is measures the room acoustics using microphone(s). And while using a microphone strapped to your melon wouldn't be the best solution (or best looking lmao) it would probably accomplish what is needed.

I never have been impressed with positional audio on the PC. At least not since the early EAX days. About the only thing they have down pat is making the dialogue come from different speakers when you look around wildly. It's basically never coming from the right direction unless the person talking or doing something is directly in front.
It's too bad because the consoles don't seem to have the same problems even with the same game.
Yea, Aureal3D (A3D) was so much better at its job than EAX. Honestly, A3D is the 3Dfx of positional audio. Pioneering, ahead of the curve, but with poor business management that ultimately led them to being purchased by an evil company that wanted nothing more but to mothball all of their work. (Though, at least nVidia utilized some of 3Dfx's tech over the years, I can't say whether Creative did, but the poor quality of EAX makes me think not).

Aureal managed to incorporate tons of NASA work (a collaboration as I recall) with positional audio into the Aureal Vortex chips and no doubt played a big role in why A3D was as good as it was.
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff/database/spinoffDetail.php?this=/spinoff//arc/ARC-SO-40
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff1998/ch4.htm (This is the same text as found in the "Full Article" PDF on the above page)

The reflection and occlusion are the two things that I found stood out as being handled better in A3D versus EAX, but that's no surprise given EAX only added that after A3D had it.
 
I used to spend about $200 on a sound card. Now other components are so expensive, I rather put the money into a better CPU or GPU.
Maybe after I get the latest and greatest this year I would consider better sound, but onboard is good enough for this non-audiophile.
 
I lost a game and was eliminated from a gaming tournament because of creative. They had these cards where the EEPROM would just reset and you would lose sound. Then you would try to reinstall the drivers and it would say that it can't install because you don't have a SoundBlaster card. There wasn't any clear way to force the driver install. So sure enough I had made it to the single elimination for the Verizon FIOS grand tournament and I was playing an opponent that I would have easily beat on any given day and my sound card loses it when I start my computer. I played and lost by 1 frag without sound. After that I kicked my computer to pieces because I was pretty much sure I was going to be going all the way to the top of that tournament. I never bought another creative sound card again. With all their money they could never make a decent driver, and the worst part was they were also too hard headed to accept that and leave us a decent work around. This interview pretty much pointed that out, the guy just doesn't seem to take the responsibility that he should for the failures of creative.

As years have gone by I have noticed just how important drivers are. If you look at big sellers like amazon and ebay, you notice that Chinese companies are always making pretty decent stuff that is way cheaper what makes or breaks them most of the time is support, can't find the driver, the driver bugs out, its just not worth the hassle. People don't pay a premium for a product like a sound card to have to be a royal pain in the ass and screw up their gaming experience. Creative never got that memo. There have been a good number of times where AMD was beating NVidia but people held on because of the drivers. It's a lesson for any company make your shit stable, easy to install, rhobust if their are failures.
 
I used to spend about $200 on a sound card. Now other components are so expensive, I rather put the money into a better CPU or GPU.
Maybe after I get the latest and greatest this year I would consider better sound, but onboard is good enough for this non-audiophile.
Honestly, considering that the PC audio scene is effectively dead you'd be better off getting a decent DAC and just using that instead.
 
Its funny but I had given up on offboard soundcards YEARS ago
Latest board I got a hold of (X79 ASROCK) has an offboard card only
So now I find myself looking at a replacement, because the drivers seem kinda shit for this, and if I HAVE to have an offboard card, might as well get a slightly better one
 
Something to consider: you can now use Dolby Headphone or Razer's surround stuff or a couple of others to do your surround 'processing' for your headphones. I do this to the optical out on my motherboard to a Topping DX7 DAC/Amp. I can run single-ended and balanced headphones and pass along a balanced signal to my JBL SR305 studio monitors at the same time.

[I'll have to use stereo for the monitors, would be a bit goofy with HRTF enabled, but they still sound awesome!]
 
I use to swear by a dedicated sound card and good analog headphones, I had an auzentech prelude and sennheiser 555's and loved it but now? I'm perfectly happy with my living room htpc setup, hdmi out to my 7.1 setup sounds way better than my headphones ever did and the true 7.1 positional audio is a HUGE help in FPS games (I have gotten so many kills/avoided so many deaths thanks to being able to tell exactly where someone is in the game near me)
 
Well, the HD555's are open and bass-light; I'm not surprised that your HTPC setup sounds 'better'. Positional audio shouldn't be much different though.
 
I use a presonus firebox USB and love it. Can do a lot of recording with mic pre-amps (phantom power) and audio sounds great into my headphones. I couldn't imagine using the onboard audio for anything other than basic sound.
 
I really only got a sound card because the audio on my MoBo died. It's an SB Audigy FX. It's fine for driving my Logitech Z323 2.1 speakers. I would care a lot more if I didn't live in an apartment.
 
Had my Xonar for years now and still put it in everytime I upgrade my system. Sounds perfectly fine still to me. :)
 
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