Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[heatlesssun]

Accept windows gaming % isn't growing.

Windows is running at 95% of Steam's clients according to Steam's hardware survey. So there's really no significant way it's market share in PC can grow. However, Windows actually did grow marginally in this survey last year while both Linux and macOC didn't. And I get that people can debate this survey and it's numbers. But in the same year Windows gaming titles out grew Linux 5 to 1 and about 3 to 1 for macOS.

Windows gets virtually all new titles for the PC, macOS and Linux don't come close to that. Linux supporters can rationalize it however they like, this is a HUGE problem for macOS and Linux in gaming.

 

[heatlesssun]

A PC enthusiast, hardware, overclocking site - Hardly, specifically, a gaming site.

Gaming is just one of many things you can do with a PC. However, quite obviously, you seem to believe it's the only thing you can do with a PC.

I remember when overclocking was about getting more for less, now it seems it's about e-peen and according to Heatlesssun - Games and only games. [yawn].

We all know you idolise Kyle.

I think it's pretty obvious that most of the content on [H]ardOCP is related to DIY/high performance PC gaming. The forums however are much more varied. I think Kyle and company do a good job of covering PC gaming and this site along with several others like PcPerspective and Guru3D is where I do a lot research in to subject of building PCs. I hadn't built a high end PC for about six years until last summer and it took some time to research the state of things and what to build. I wanted to get into VR and Kyle has done a lot of reviewing on this, about as much as anyone in the DIY/high performance PC blogophere in the last year.

As a result a lot of discussion on VR is being done in these forums today and I got a lot information for a number of folks who had the hardware and had been through it already. They were invaluable in helping make decisions. That's not idolization but it's appreciation for people who have good information.

 

[Snowdog]

You sound an awful lot like Heatlessun

All the hardware in my 6 PC's 'just works' on Linux, even my Creative sound cards and a couple different RAID controllers. I'm even using AMD GPUs for gaming.

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who could actually get anything done on Windows 8\10 without a Start menu hack/workaround installed. Can't block updates or install your own drivers without third party workarounds, either.

I have probably spent more of my time arguing against Heatlesssun that anyone else I have come across here. Because he lays on the Windows advocacy a bit thick. But he has nothing on the Linux advocates, who paint a ridiculous Pollyanna view of where Linux is, when having used it for more than 20 years, I know is bullshit. Then they pepper it with outlandish notions that Microsoft is going to replace the Windows kernel with the Linux Kernel.

I didn't claim no hardware would work with Linux. Are you going to tell me my Garmin Hardware and proprietary SW will work on Linux without extensive work arounds, and that just for the basics?

As far as needing classic shell to work, that is just bullshit. I use classic shell myself on Windows 7 at home. But I don't use it at work I use it at home to create organized start menu folders with the 100+ programs I have installed, something most people don't do in any version of Windows.

Looking at other peoples computers at work, what I see is that most people just dump shortcuts on their desktop for any application they have to work with. Something they can do in any version of Windows.

There are legitimate things to complain about in Windows 10, around control of updates, so we will have to see where that goes long term. FWIW I am staying on Win7 for WMC (for TV recording not as a media player).

But as I said several pages back now, ultimately OS minutia isn't what should really matter that much, and you shouldn't be spending your time in the OS, as it is ultimately just a launcher for what really matters.

What really matters, is what software it can run, and what hardware does it support. There is no debate at all that Windows is far ahead on both counts. Using a Windows OS, you have MUCH more software choice and MUCH more hardware choice, and ultimately these are the things that really matter.

Choosing Linux to limit that choice, is often based on reasons outside of the practical.

 

[heatlesssun]

What really matters, is what software it can run, and what hardware does it support. There is no debate at all that Windows is far ahead on both counts. Using a Windows OS, you have MUCH more software choice and MUCH more hardware choice, and ultimately these are the things that really matter.

Unless one has basic hardware and software needs there's just no way to get around this. Windows' 3rd party hardware and software in the desktop space is BY FAR its greatest strength. The reason why PC gamers use it is because virtually ALL PC games have Windows versions. Not 20% or 40%, virtually all. And in the general software space the story isn't that much different. Yes there is some macOS only software, a little bit of Linux only desktop software especially with smaller open source efforts. But the number of quality Windows only applications is much larger than either one, especially commercial software.

It's beyond unreasonable to call people who point this out as Windows cheerleaders when the situation is so glaringly obvious. When Linux advocates come up with convoluted rationalizations about this issue, there the ones cheerleading and honestly I think it hurts their cause. There's no way that Linux can compete with Windows on the desktop with the disparity of top level 3rd party support compared to Windows. And no, the situation relative to Windows really isn't much different than it's been forever because as the Linux ecosystem has grown, Windows has more than kept pace and in the gaming space the difference is even more stark as Windows titles keep growing at a much higher rate than Linux.

And this isn't to say that some, even many people, might very well be fine with Linux on the desktop. The McDonalds folks that Bullet mentions, those that are not looking for the latest and greatest in hardware and software support, that's a group that will be MUCH easier to satisfy than a high end gamer.

 

[BulletDust]

Windows is running at 95% of Steam's clients according to Steam's hardware survey. So there's really no significant way it's market share in PC can grow. However, Windows actually did grow marginally in this survey last year while both Linux and macOC didn't. And I get that people can debate this survey and it's numbers. But in the same year Windows gaming titles out grew Linux 5 to 1 and about 3 to 1 for macOS.

Linux enjoyed growth on the steam platform, you keep failing to take into consideration that the Steam platform has grown overall - Considerably. Then we have to consider the number of titles running under Wine on Linux, an application that is also growing and improving all the time.

Windows gets virtually all new titles for the PC, macOS and Linux don't come close to that. Linux supporters can rationalize it however they like, this is a HUGE problem for macOS and Linux in gaming.

A point that no one ever disputed and a point that's hugely unimportant to anyone that's already committed to switching to Linux. I can play all the games I enjoy just fine and so can others in this thread, but you keep ignoring that fact. Not everyone cares for many of the titles released under Windows.

I think it's pretty obvious that most of the content on [H]ardOCP is related to DIY/high performance PC gaming. The forums however are much more varied. I think Kyle and company do a good job of covering PC gaming and this site along with several others like PcPerspective and Guru3D is where I do a lot research in to subject of building PCs. I hadn't built a high end PC for about six years until last summer and it took some time to research the state of things and what to build. I wanted to get into VR and Kyle has done a lot of reviewing on this, about as much as anyone in the DIY/high performance PC blogophere in the last year.

This forum started as an overclocking forum, just like many others that started up at around the same time due to hardware being so stupidly expensive and the average wage being so low in comparison. It was about people picking up the cheaper Celeron 300A and overclocking it to the specs of the Pentium 3 450 because that's all anyone could afford. To this day little has changed, there is still a major focus on hardware and overclocking, gaming benchmarks are just one way to benchmark the relative performance hardware at various overclocks. I see no evidence whatsoever that [H] is primarily a gaming site first and foremost and I'm not really interested in VR, no ones going to be really interested in VR until price drops considerably and the need to wear something on ones face is eliminated completely - It will remain a niche market.

Unless one has basic hardware and software needs there's just no way to get around this. Windows' 3rd party hardware and software in the desktop space is BY FAR its greatest strength. The reason why PC gamers use it is because virtually ALL PC games have Windows versions. Not 20% or 40%, virtually all. And in the general software space the story isn't that much different. Yes there is some macOS only software, a little bit of Linux only desktop software especially with smaller open source efforts. But the number of quality Windows only applications is much larger than either one, especially commercial software.

A moot point due to the fact mentioned over and over and over again above and you always exaggerate the importance of commercial software under Windows.

And this isn't to say that some, even many people, might very well be fine with Linux on the desktop. The McDonalds folks that Bullet mentions, those that are not looking for the latest and greatest in hardware and software support, that's a group that will be MUCH easier to satisfy than a high end gamer.

I never compared McDonalds to Windows users, I compared McDonalds to the Windows OS - And Windows is, very much, the McDonalds of operating systems. Saying something is better because it's popular is hardly ever the case.

You keep going on about Linux only supporting basic hardware, but then you whip out the e-peen and brag about your sig rig and how Linux won't support it! With the exception of your HTC facemask I see no reason why Linux would not install and run just fine on your sig rig - It would even support SLI and multiple monitors, with a bit of luck perhaps applications would begin supporting SLI in the future. However I don't see SLI really doing a lot past AAA titles anyway, and even then on release it's often so buggy it needs to be disabled which was the issue on BF3 and quite possibly even BF4.

I used to be a big supporter of SLI and NVS and always ran multiple cards and monitors, until the issues started with NVS and I began noticing more indi titles on Steam that I wanted to play that didn't support SLI at all and never will. That's when I ditched SLI and multiple monitors under Windows.

 

[Snowdog]

I never compared McDonalds to Windows users, I compared McDonalds to the Windows OS - And Windows is, very much, the McDonalds of operating systems. Saying something is better because it's popular is hardly ever the case.

Bad analogies are always a waste of time.

Popularity as in Market Share is actually a major selling point in any platform, because it directly affects how much HW/SW support that platform will have.

Enough popularity and your platform may be considered a standard. When it reaches that point, pretty much no one will consider releasing a product without supporting it.

So as a user of a popular/standard platform, you can just relax know just about everything coming out will be available.

If you want to ensure access to all the top games, you want one of the 3 major platforms: Windows/Xbox/Playstation. Otherwise you will end up missing out on most of the top games.
If you want to ensure full access to all the best productivity/multimedia software you are probably looking at a Windows, and to a lesser extent MacOS PC..
If you want to ensure full access to all kinds of third party hardware, you are probably looking at a Windows, and to a lesser extent MacOS PC..

 

[chaos4u]

I think the only thing windows has going for it anymore is familiarity.

Reason why i and many other stick with windows is because we know the system, and we know how a majority of the applications interface with the OS.

Building upon this base they create a reliable tool chain that aids them in creating a comfortable workflow. enabling them to get things done easily and even sometimes painlessly.

Thus where the trouble starts for linux.

while linux has come along way the hurdle is still quite high to become as familiar with how its systems and applications interface with the OS.

While this can be overcome with time, it is a huge investment for some. especially when trying to decipher why and how something needs to be changed to work as you expect.

so already that base is weaker for some. Then trying to build a tool chain on top of this base, coupled with establishing a workflow, many give up in frustration as the end result
is often too foreign to work with comfortably.

with that said, people use linux based tool chains to create content all the time, and do so successfully. The platform has matured significantly in the past several years.

and it is starting if not already, that the real issue of not being able to work proficiently in linux is because the user refuses to invest the time to create that reliable infrastructure to work upon.

 

[ChadD]

Bad analogies are always a waste of time.

Popularity as in Market Share is actually a major selling point in any platform, because it directly affects how much HW/SW support that platform will have.

Enough popularity and your platform may be considered a standard. When it reaches that point, pretty much no one will consider releasing a product without supporting it.

So as a user of a popular/standard platform, you can just relax know just about everything coming out will be available.

If you want to ensure access to all the top games, you want one of the 3 major platforms: Windows/Xbox/Playstation. Otherwise you will end up missing out on most of the top games.
If you want to ensure full access to all the best productivity/multimedia software you are probably looking at a Windows, and to a lesser extent MacOS PC..
If you want to ensure full access to all kinds of third party hardware, you are probably looking at a Windows, and to a lesser extent MacOS PC..

You make a good point as to why MS is not going to have a very happy future.

Desktop computing as an idea is dying. Folks under 30 simply are not buying them. When it comes to mobile computing windows is not the standard, not even close.

And again stop it with the "top end" games junk. I'm sorry 90% of the games on the PS4 / Xbone and windows simply don't appeal to me at all... I am not the only one to hold the same dim view of the "top end" gaming situation at the moment. Very few are fun... most have very little replay value. I have gotten far more fun (which is subjective) the last few years from indy games in Linux... and some of my favorite AAA games from the last 4-5 years have good linux ports... or run well enough under Wine.

Also not to continue arguing in circles productivity multimedia software bla bla... as we have already pointed out. Adobes sales have been in the shitter for a good while now... the pro market at this point has been transitioning away from their cloud software. Yes OSX has seen a MASSIVE bump in usage in just the last year in regards to Sofware Development and Multi media use. Apple right now owes divided payments to Sherif the makers of Affinity Pro, as a sizable chunk of the photoshop pro segment has switched to OSX, and dragged in house software development along it seems. Linux as seems to always be the case year after year increases by a few % points. Hey no one her claimed Linux would be 100% of the market in a year... we have said its a very viable alternative to Windows right now, in a thread talking about windows alternatives. lol

 

[Snowdog]

You make a good point as to why MS is not going to have a very happy future.

Desktop computing as an idea is dying. Folks under 30 simply are not buying them. When it comes to mobile computing windows is not the standard, not even close.

I have no stock in Microsoft, so it isn't my problem. Though it would make Desktop Linux even more pointless. 1% of a dying market gives even less reason for support.

I posted a comments about desktop sales years ago, and IMO the desktop(including laptop) isn't dying, but it may be resetting to a new lower(but still large) level. I think most of the sales slowdown in recent years is mostly people extending their PC lifespan, rather than chucking their PC. My PC is 8 years old and use it just about every day. I have a much more recent and decent (Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro with 2560x1600 screen) Android tablet I bought a couple of years ago, thinking I would use it for reading and internet. But really quickly I gave up using it for internet, because Internet on 24" screen is MUCH better than on a an 8.4" screen, and typing on a full keyboard is much better than swiping a screen. End result I have much older computer that I use >10x as much as my newer tablet.

And again stop it with the "top end" games junk. I'm sorry 90% of the games on the PS4 / Xbone and windows simply don't appeal to me at all... I am not the only one to hold the same dim view of the "top end" gaming situation at the moment. Very few are fun... most have very little replay value. I have gotten far more fun (which is subjective) the last few years from indy games in Linux... and some of my favorite AAA games from the last 4-5 years have good linux ports... or run well enough under Wine.

Sure. The games you like, just happen to be Indie Linux games, or AAA games that have ports, or games that work in Wine. What a lucky coincidence.

It is this kind of obvious BS that taints everything you say.

Also not to continue arguing in circles productivity multimedia software bla bla... as we have already pointed out. Adobes sales have been in the shitter for a good while now... the pro market at this point has been transitioning away from their cloud software. Yes OSX has seen a MASSIVE bump in usage in just the last year in regards to Sofware Development and Multi media use. Apple right now owes divided payments to Sherif the makers of Affinity Pro, as a sizable chunk of the photoshop pro segment has switched to OSX, and dragged in house software development along it seems. Linux as seems to always be the case year after year increases by a few % points. Hey no one her claimed Linux would be 100% of the market in a year... we have said its a very viable alternative to Windows right now, in a thread talking about windows alternatives. lol

Thanks for reminding me. You know that disingenuous bit of evidence you posted of Adobe's Doom:
http://www.alphr.com/news/390835/dark-clouds-for-adobe-as-profits-slide-by-46

That was from 2014.

Here is 2015 (profit DOUBLES with thanks to cloud subscribers):
https://petapixel.com/2015/12/15/ad...anks-to-growth-in-creative-cloud-subscribers/

Here is 2016: (record profits)
https://which-50.com/adobe-posts-record-revenues-profits/

So totally doomed.

Not that I care, Adobe moving to subscriptions suck. I hate this move.

BTW even if Affinity takes over the market. They have already released Windows versions, because that Market share will pull in everyone, giving Windows users the maximum of choice. So really Affinity will just be turning Adobe Windows users into Affinity Windows users (same for the Mac).

It is also unlikely there is a exodus from Windows machines to Macs. Whenever I read about new Macs(or lack of), I read the opposite; Pros are fed up with the lack of new Desktop Macs and are going to Windows. Mac Pro hasn't been updated in over 3 years!

But multimedia isn't just Adobe and clones. It's a whole ecosystem of products. I mentioned a couple of personal examples. Recording TV with WMC and editing out the commercials with VideoRedo.

 

[heatlesssun]

Linux enjoyed growth on the steam platform, you keep failing to take into consideration that the Steam platform has grown overall - Considerably. Then we have to consider the number of titles running under Wine on Linux, an application that is also growing and improving all the time.

With 95%+ of Steam users on Windows, at least according to the Steam Hardware Survey, the bulk of growth in absolute numbers is coming from Windows users., even if that survey is way, way, WAY off, Windows users are the overwhelming majority of Steam users and are driving growth in absolute numbers.

A point that no one ever disputed and a point that's hugely unimportant to anyone that's already committed to switching to Linux. I can play all the games I enjoy just fine and so can others in this thread, but you keep ignoring that fact. Not everyone cares for many of the titles released under Windows.

No one is arguing that Linux isn't working for you for gaming. For those that game seriously on a PC, Linux probably wouldn't meet their needs because those games wouldn't be available.

I see no evidence whatsoever that [H] is primarily a gaming site first and foremost and I'm not really interested in VR, no ones going to be really interested in VR until price drops considerably and the need to wear something on ones face is eliminated completely - It will remain a niche market.

You talk about the history of [H]ardOCP but VR is something that does get a lot of coverage here. Some must be interested.

A moot point due to the fact mentioned over and over and over again above and you always exaggerate the importance of commercial software under Windows.

There are plenty people here saying the same thing, that they can't use Linux, at least full time, because of the lack of this software.

I never compared McDonalds to Windows users, I compared McDonalds to the Windows OS - And Windows is, very much, the McDonalds of operating systems. Saying something is better because it's popular is hardly ever the case.

Ok, Windows is the McDonalds of desktop operating systems. But all of that commercial software that you discount because it's NOT POPULAR in that it's not something everyone uses, is a huge reason why Windows, the McDonalds of desktop operating systems, isn't easily replaced. There's just irony in what you say on this. Windows is the McDonalds of operating systems, and there is logic to that. But it's the non-McDonalds aspects to it that make it difficult to replace. If all a person wanted on a PC was a web browser and whatever content creation of software or games that are available to Linux then it's easy peasy to move to Linux, full time.

With the exception of your HTC facemask I see no reason why Linux would not install and run just fine on your sig rig - It would even support SLI and multiple monitors, with a bit of luck perhaps applications would begin supporting SLI in the future. However I don't see SLI really doing a lot past AAA titles anyway, and even then on release it's often so buggy it needs to be disabled which was the issue on BF3 and quite possibly even BF4.

You say all this stuff would be supported under Linux however virtually none of the software, which is the reason for the hardware, runs natively under Linux.

I used to be a big supporter of SLI and NVS and always ran multiple cards and monitors, until the issues started with NVS and I began noticing more indi titles on Steam that I wanted to play that didn't support SLI at all and never will. That's when I ditched SLI and multiple monitors under Windows.

I'll be the first the SLI is iffy at best, but it can provide a significant boost to some games.

 

[heatlesssun]

BTW even if Affinity takes over the market. They have already released Windows versions, because that Market share will pull in everyone, giving Windows users the maximum of choice. So really Affinity will just be turning Adobe Windows users into Affinity Windows users (same for the Mac).

One of the most ironic things about these debates, to me anyway, is just much Windows software gets advertised in them. I've never heard of Affinity but yep, Windows versions! Really, if you're making commercial desktop software, how many developers can ignore 90% of that market.

In any case, I'm not anywhere near a graphic artist but for $40, what the hell. So I bought a copy. For Windows.

 

[Snowdog]

I had a CS subscription at work, but at home, too damn expensive. I use paint.net there.

I had never heard of Affinity, but I thought, if they they are that good, how can they ignore a market 10X as big. Sure enough they can't.

If I ever need something more powerful than paint.net at home. Affinity Photo is top of the list.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

 

[heatlesssun]

All in good fun. When people are passionate about something and are willing to REALLY debate the issue without make too personal, I think that's a good thing. And it's not like we have heard all of these arguments before. Desktop Linux is great because it's not from a mega corp, resistant to desktop malware and has a gaggle of varieties to choose from. And for Windows desktop folks, well it's not that I'm so much in love with Windows but pretty much any application or device I may want you use is available.

It's been the same argument for two decades now, so yeah, classic dead horse. But I do learn a few things and as I said earlier is that I actually learn a great deal about software for Windows I never heard of. I learn more about that from people that are arguing with me about how bad Windows more often than I would have ever thought.

 

[DPI]

This multiquote back and forth between nervous geeks has gotten lesbian-like. I'm bailing.

 

[heatlesssun]

Desktop computing as an idea is dying. Folks under 30 simply are not buying them. When it comes to mobile computing windows is not the standard, not even close.

You mean people living with there parents. Microsoft has a shitload of problems. It's not the biggest the badest tech company out there. Apple and Google have surpassed it. But at a market valuation that's now around it's historical highs over $500 billion in nominal dollars, no one could even think about buying Microsoft for anything less than a trillion dollars. As a public company for over 30 years now, it's lost money on paper, i.e. a write down, in two quarters. Microsoft over a year as a public company has NEVER posted a loss in 30 years. Microsoft has an unparalleled record of stability and consistency in the tech industry financially for a generation.

This is not worship or cheerleading but a proven record that spans the lifespan of the under 30 crowd you mention. In these debates, I often wish that I could agree with the opposing side. Windows sucks. Office sucks. VR sucks. And who cares about gaming? I guess am in a position that many who are called Microsoft cheerleaders, what exactly am I supposed to do to be in. You can give me list of desktop apps approved by Linux advocates, and most of them are Windows compatible.

I just don't really get what people like you want other than the end of a company that's always done well.

And again stop it with the "top end" games junk. I'm sorry 90% of the games on the PS4 / Xbone and windows simply don't appeal to me at all...

Fine. But virtually all PC games have a native Windows version.

I am not the only one to hold the same dim view of the "top end" gaming situation at the moment. Very few are fun... most have very little replay value. I have gotten far more fun (which is subjective) the last few years from indy games in Linux... and some of my favorite AAA games from the last 4-5 years have good linux ports... or run well enough under Wine.

So no mention of even one game and then Wine. So no Windows games matter to you but when they do, Wine?

Also not to continue arguing in circles productivity multimedia software bla bla... as we have already pointed out. Adobes sales have been in the shitter for a good while now... the pro market at this point has been transitioning away from their cloud software. Yes OSX has seen a MASSIVE bump in usage in just the last year in regards to Sofware Development and Multi media use. Apple right now owes divided payments to Sherif the makers of Affinity Pro, as a sizable chunk of the photoshop pro segment has switched to OSX, and dragged in house software development along it seems. Linux as seems to always be the case year after year increases by a few % points. Hey no one her claimed Linux would be 100% of the market in a year... we have said its a very viable alternative to Windows right now, in a thread talking about windows alternatives. lol

Affinity, they have a Windows software now. Just bought a copy today for Affinity Draw for Windows. You're welcome.

 

[heatlesssun]

This multiquote back and forth between nervous geeks has gotten lesbian-like. I'm bailing.

You could have just said "Windows sucks, move to Linux."

 

[gulguran]

It is a little depressing to see a Microsoft-centric website running this sort of article, but there it is. I would have you know that I have no qualms with Windows 10 whatsoever (come at me), but those of you on the other end of the spectrum may find some amusement here. The author suggests that the number one alternative to Microsoft’s newest effort is its predecessor, Windows 8, but there is no way I would ever want to be reminded of what served as the catalyst for the full-screen, Fisher-Priced Start menu.

With Microsoft looking at new ways of monetizing Windows 10—in many cases, with ever-aggressive advertising in the product itself—I’m getting a lot of questions about alternatives. And while the case for moving off Windows 10 on PCs is not clear, I feel the frustration too. In fact, I spend a lot more time than you may realize exploring those alternatives. This week alone, I’ve done work on macOS, using my MacBook Air, and I’ve installed the latest versions of Ubuntu and Mint Linux. In other recent weeks, I’ve spent time with a surprisingly high-quality Acer Chromebook as well. I do this with no sense of joy. And to be clear I still find Windows 10 to be the obvious winner when I evaluate what it is that I’m looking for personally.

To me the only issue left is gaming. Office and such is generic enough to work on Linux or OSX but gaming is the problem I have. Plus I do windows centric app development for a living. But I am talking about in general.

 

[BulletDust]

With 95%+ of Steam users on Windows, at least according to the Steam Hardware Survey, the bulk of growth in absolute numbers is coming from Windows users., even if that survey is way, way, WAY off, Windows users are the overwhelming majority of Steam users and are driving growth in absolute numbers.

Which doesn't matter in the slightest, once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Take the following example Heatlesssun:

Linux: 1.0% @ 50,000 Steam users overall.

vs

Linux: 1.0% @ 100,000 Steam users overall.

So the number of Steam users under Linux has doubled because the pie is now bigger, the OS the bulk of the users are running is completely irrelevant, the only figure that really matters is the percentage.

Now I've not only tried to point this fact out to yourself over and over again, I've also provided evidence of this in reference to an article that the author had to apologise about in relation to the number of Linux users under Steam in other threads on this very topic. Take a bit of humble pie, stop talking shit, and learn to accept when you're misinformed.

Here's the same statistics as factual as I can find them:

Steam concurrent usage between October 2016 and January 2017 increased by ~24.3%:

Yet Linux usage statistics changed by a minuscule 0.08%, which could almost be classed as statistical noise it's such a minuscule figure:

Now I admit maths isn't my strong suite, and someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but by my reasoning it can safely be assumed that Linux usage between the months of October 2016 and January 2017 grew roughly 24%. And that's not including Linux users playing Steam games under Wine, which is going to artificially inflate Windows figures and artificially deflate Linux figures. The discovery of how well Doom runs under Wine on Linux using the Vulkan API could very well account for the difference of 0.08%.

You talk about the history of [H]ardOCP but VR is something that does get a lot of coverage here. Some must be interested.

Very true, some may also be interested in Linux and would like to participate freely and openly without misinformed Windows users doing their best to bury any discussion that doesn't work in favour of Windows. Once again, humble pie = respect.

You say all this stuff would be supported under Linux however virtually none of the software, which is the reason for the hardware, runs natively under Linux.

Linux has been on Steam for ~2-3 years vs Windows at ~10 years ignoring the early years where Steam was pretty much shunning everyone in favour of their own HalfLife series of games. As stated, in a very short period of time gaming support under Linux has literally exploded in a way I personally never saw coming and never thought possible. Not everyone is into the latest AAA gaming as you are and people's PC needs vary greatly. I am sick and tired of you completely ignoring this growth while chanting the rhetoric "But growth under Windows!" We are all full aware of where Windows stands in relation to Steam and gaming, none of us here are stupid - However, I can assure you that when you blatantly ignore certain facts over and over again and just keep chanting the previously mentioned mantra you appear stupid. Now don't take offence at that remark as I'm sure you are not stupid, however you cannot argue with the facts, and I have provided facts over and over again in relation to Linux growth. Stop acting all butt hurt over the fact that I'm not singing the praises of Microsoft and admit that there is a certain growth in relation to Linux that has never been seen in the past.

Point being, providing Linux keeps growing and support keeps improving I'm sure than given another ~2 years VR titles may begin to be supported under Linux provided the technology takes off - Considering Valve's attention span's only second to Google's I'm not holding my breath over VR just yet.

To quote Frobozz:

I give shits because I want the position to keep growing. The way to do that is by showing support by buying from the porting houses and being counted running on the platform. The needle isn't going to move if I'm on Windows and saying I want 200% more titles on Linux so I can switch.

Just because something isn't the most popular, doesn't mean it sucks, or is unworthy of support.

Seriously, as PC users is this so wrong?! You fight the growth of Linux so hard and I honestly have no idea why? We get it, it's not suitable for you, why not just leave it at that and move on? Do you think I'm somehow lying or exaggerating the truth? Because all through all of these threads I have done my best to back my comments up with facts.

There are plenty people here saying the same thing, that they can't use Linux, at least full time, because of the lack of this software.

And no one has disputed these facts. As stated early on in this thread, if you absolutely need professional packages under Windows than stick to Windows. But not everyone needs these software packages and many individuals can actually switch to a similar package under a different platform considering the individual needs required from their PC - There is no arguing this point, it's fact. Accept it and move on.

Yes, you could argue that Windows already supports such packages so you may as well run Windows, but in arguing such a perspective you've missed the point of the discussion completely - In this discussion people are tired of the Windows ecosystem for whatever reason and want to move on, there's nothing wrong with that, especially considering many of Microsoft's choices as of late.

I switched to Linux and it is literally one of the best things I ever did. We are PC enthusiasts, we support the PC as a platform, screw the OS.

I'll be the first the SLI is iffy at best, but it can provide a significant boost to some games.

As a long term, hardcore SLI gamer it took me a while to realise one very important fact - The benefits don't outweigh the cost, especially when support is so sketchy.

 

[tetris42]

You make fair points. Yes the less well known a game is the more likely it is to have issues. The more mainstream a game or games based on well known engines like Unreal ect the less likely it is there will be issues.

Dosbox has the advantage of emulating a system that is far less complicated and software designed to run on it conforms to a relatively small set of function calls.

Where as wine is emulating Windows Vista / 7 / 8 / 10 DX 6 7 8 9 10 11.... and non of that is open sourced and reverse engineering is not legal. It means most of the Wine code is honestly guessed at based on developer SDKs ect. The fact that it works at all is honestly pretty amazing.

With the Wine list of games the thing to keep in mind as well is those reports (the golds silvers garbage reports) are all added by users. With Linux unlike windows the distro can make a big difference. You will find most of the people giving garbage or silver type ratings to games are doing so from distros like Ubuntu LTS and other long term support distros. That would tell me those people are running older Kernels systems possibly GPU drivers and often older versions of Wine. I know it can be a bit confusing... I guess it would be sort of like a site reporting how things ran on different versions of windows (7 / 10 Home / Pro ect) although clearly there would be far less variance then you get from Linux. Still just pointing out I almost ignore what people post on their if I notice they are running specific distros. (as I say mainly the distros I know are aimed at stable Server / workstation operation and not at all designed to be gamed on)

The bottom line when it gets right down to it is this. If you are planning to run a ton of Wine... you likely shouldn't be using Linux. Yes I'm a Linux booster and I say if you still have specific games you love and they are not on Linux do yourself a favor and keep a copy of windows on an old / small hard drive. I keep an old 300 gb drive loaded with Windows 7 and I don't deny it... I still boot windows now and then. I also use Wine here and there for the odd older game... and I have used to to run some stupid tax software. Dual booting still works well.... its not ideal no doubt, I wish there was a way to release a video card and pass it to a VM to make life easier but I know that isn't possible.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I realize getting Windows games to run is far more complex than something like DOS. I'd be amazed if it DID have the same level of compatibility. Believe me, I hope someday between WINE and virtualization, Linux gaming can actually get to that 99% I'm after. I just thought the DOSbox comparison wasn't valid at all. If there was somehow somebody out there still on DOS afraid to switch to another OS because he wouldn't be able to play his games, I could wholeheartedly assure him he will be able to run all his games and it will be great on DOSbox. I don't think Linux users can honestly do that for Windows gamers, even for older games. My perception is like this:

DOSbox compatibility = fantastic, great experience, incredibly rare not to work on something.
WINE compatibility = sometimes great, sometimes not at all, and everything in-between.

At 422 titles under Windows 20 of them may be worth playing.

At 60 titles under Linux, again, 20 of them may be worth playing.

You realize by saying this, you're essentially saying "any game worth playing on Windows also comes to Linux." I think the Windows library is too rich and diverse to make that assumption.

LOL! That's a great attitude to have. But a single $800 hardware purchase along with $300 in games doesn't come close to burning money relative to what I've spent on PC gaming for 25 years. Not for many other around here.

Give me a break. I'm enthusiastic for VR, but I think the competing standards and varying gflaws on the flagship for the price being asked is a complete mess. Ridiculing somebody because they don't burn a lot of money on something iffy? Seriously, get out of here with that kind of thinking.

Linux on the desktop certainly has reached the point that it can stand on its own as a gaming platform. All of my favorite games are Linux native. You can downplay it all you want, but with 25% of the Steam store and 1/3 of my Steam library running on Linux I almost never feel the need to boot Windows anymore. Even better, most of the other things I want to play run fine under Wine.

It's easier than ever to switch to Linux and the situation has improved drastically in the past year or so from how it used to be. You said it's been ~18 months since you last tried Ubuntu on your surface. Load up Mint on there and see how it goes. Anyone who's dabbled with Linux in the past really needs to load up their favorite distro again and see how much things have improved. I've was a Windows fan forever and I switched.

There's room for improvement and you wont have '100%' of your Windows library, but Windows 10 is unacceptable and Windows 7 wont be supported forever.

I think it's safe to say if you only dabble in gaming, then you can consider Linux. As for Windows 7 being dropped eventually, you're right, but I would be willing to bet it could be DECADES before Linux runs MORE games than Windows 7 does.

It has nothing to do with being a Windows fan. That's the thing Linux proponents have NEVER understood. Ok, Windows is evil. Got that. Now tell me how everything I do can be done elsewhere.

This is pretty much the entire argument of why I've been on Windows this whole time.

 

[BulletDust]

You realize by saying this, you're essentially saying "any game worth playing on Windows also comes to Linux." I think the Windows library is too rich and diverse to make that assumption.

Yes, I do.

Going by Steam's own statistics, out of the top ten games only two aren't available under Linux.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Considering the diversity of personal choice I see every reason why certain individuals may find that almost all of the games they enjoy are available under Linux, as no one downloads and plays even anywhere close to 100% of the games available under Windows, narrowing that library diversity down considerably. Therefore my comment still stands.

 

[BulletDust]

This is pretty much the entire argument of why I've been on Windows this whole time.

And as stated earlier in this thread, if you find that is the case than it's probably best you stick to Windows. Having said that your personal use case doesn't reflect everyone and certainly doesn't imply that Linux isn't growing at the moment according to many of the statistics available that I have linked in this thread.

 

[Frobozz]

Why not Windows 10 Cloud as an alternative to Windows? Then you can have Windows AND leave your legacy apps behind... The worst of all worlds.

provided the one sentence of speculation is right.

Windows 10 Cloud is a simplifed version of Windows 10 that will be able to run only Unified Windows Platform (UWP) apps installed from the Windows Store, my contacts say.

 

[BulletDust]

Why not Windows 10 Cloud as an alternative to Windows? Then you can have Windows AND leave your legacy apps behind... The worst of all worlds.

provided the one sentence of speculation is right.

Gawd, didn't they learn from Windows RT?

 

[Snowdog]

Yes, I do.

Going by Steam's own statistics, out of the top ten games only two aren't available under Linux.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Considering the diversity of personal choice I see every reason why certain individuals may find that almost all of the games they enjoy are available under Linux, as no one downloads and plays even anywhere close to 100% of the games available under Windows, narrowing that library diversity down considerably. Therefore my comment still stands.

If you want to make hours played your criteria you lose again.

Example, the top game on your list: Dota 2.

Is a MOBA similar to League of Legends.

League of Legends is MUCH bigger with almost 10x as many players.

LOL alone would total more hours than your entire Steam list, and it isn't on Linux.

Again. Windows, more choice in every category.

 

[tetris42]

Yes, I do.

Going by Steam's own statistics, out of the top ten games only two aren't available under Linux.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Considering the diversity of personal choice I see every reason why certain individuals may find that almost all of the games they enjoy are available under Linux, as no one downloads and plays even anywhere close to 100% of the games available under Windows, narrowing that library diversity down considerably. Therefore my comment still stands.

Many of the games on that list are ones where people form entire lifestyles around playing that sole game. Again, if you don't play many games, and Linux has the one you want, you're all set. Here, let's look at another metric, Steam's own best-sellers from 2016:

http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/

Now granted, I can't say how many of these run on WINE, I'm just looking as to whether Steam supports them natively:

Platinum:
5/12

Gold:
4/12

Silver:
9/16

Bronze:
21/59 (I'm not counting "steam controller" as a game)

Total:
31/99

These are not fringe games, these are the top 100 best sellers on Steam of 2016. If you think over 2/3 of the best sellers are not worth playing (that just so happen to be the same ones not on Linux), what can I say, that's practically a hipster attitude towards gaming.

 

[BulletDust]

Many of the games on that list are ones where people form entire lifestyles around playing that sole game. Again, if you don't play many games, and Linux has the one you want, you're all set. Here, let's look at another metric, Steam's own best-sellers from 2016:

http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/

Now granted, I can't say how many of these run on WINE, I'm just looking as to whether Steam supports them natively:

Platinum:
5/12

Gold:
4/12

Silver:
9/16

Bronze:
21/59 (I'm not counting "steam controller" as a game)

Total:
31/99

These are not fringe games, these are the top 100 best sellers on Steam of 2016. If you think over 2/3 of the best sellers are not worth playing (that just so happen to be the same ones not on Linux), what can I say, that's practically a hipster attitude towards gaming.

Look, it really is a moot point arguing this topic. We all know there's more games under Windows, we all know many of those titles are shovelware, we all know many of the titles under Linux are shovelware and we all know that absolutely no one is going to play 100% of the titles available for Windows under Steam, in fact it can safely be assumed that no one is going to play 100% of the titles available under Linux.

However, in many cases people may very well find that most of the titles they enjoy are supported under Linux and in order to escape Microsoft's odd decisions as late it's totally worth it for them to switch to Linux - This is naturally going to vary from person to person and is a very personal decision.

The only figure I care about is growth under Linux, and in all aspects Linux is growing like it never has in the past.

 

[Snowdog]

Look, it really is a moot point arguing this topic. We all know there's more games under Windows, we all know many of those titles are shovelware, we all know many of the titles under Linux are shovelware and we all know that absolutely no one is going to play 100% of the titles available for Windows under Steam.

However, in many cases people may very well find that most of the titles they enjoy are supported under Linux and in order to escape Microsoft's odd decisions as late it's totally worth it for them to switch to Linux - This is naturally going to vary from person to person and is a very personal decision.

The only figure I care about is growth under Linux, and in all aspects Linux is growing like it never has in the past.

Or the shorter version. The only OS you care about is Linux.

Of course arguing with you to open your mind is moot. You are only going to use Linux no matter what. Your mind is completely closed on the topic.

So, it truly doesn't matter how much better Windows software there is in every category, because you just pretend it doesn't matter, because you are just blindly biased against windows.

But we aren't trying to convince you. It's pretty clear that is impossible.

We are presenting a more realistic view of software availability on Windows to counter you ridiculously biased Linux claims.

And the truth is that in just about every category, Windows has multiple times as much good software. Contrary to your claims of mostly shovelware games on Windows, the truth is that there is a higher ratio of shovelware games on Linux, because Linux is missing most commercial games, which have a higher quality ratio than indy/free open source games in general, and MUCH higher production budgets if you care about things like artwork, voice acting.

There are all kinds of "most anticipated games of 2017" lists like this. Look at any of them. How many are coming to Linux? If Gaming is your thing, Linux is nearly the last platform your would be on. That is the truth.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/feature/game/37-most-anticipated-games-of-2017-3625293/

And it isn't just gaming, as mentioned before. It's HW support, and it's every category of software.

If you are working in Linux, or want a hobby in Linux, fine, but for most people, it is nothing but much more work for less software and less HW support.

 

[Frobozz]

Or the shorter version. The only OS you care about is Linux.

Of course arguing with you to open your mind is moot. You are only going to use Linux no matter what. Your mind is completely closed on the topic.

So, it truly doesn't matter how much better Windows software there is in every category, because you just pretend it doesn't matter, because you are just blindly biased against windows.

But we aren't trying to convince you. It's pretty clear that is impossible.

We are presenting a more realistic view of software availability on Windows to counter you ridiculously biased Linux claims.

And the truth is that in just about every category, Windows has multiple times as much good software. Contrary to your claims of mostly shovelware games on Windows, the truth is that there is a higher ratio of shovelware games on Linux, because Linux is missing most commercial games, which have a higher quality ratio than indy/free open source games in general, and MUCH higher production budgets if you care about things like artwork, voice acting.

There are all kinds of "most anticipated games of 2017" lists like this. Look at any of them. How many are coming to Linux? If Gaming is your thing, Linux is nearly the last platform your would be on. That is the truth.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/feature/game/37-most-anticipated-games-of-2017-3625293/

And it isn't just gaming, as mentioned before. It's HW support, and it's every category of software.

If you are working in Linux, or want a hobby in Linux, fine, but for most people, it is nothing but much more work for less software and less HW support.

Oh good.. I was scared it wasn't fine for a moment there.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Or the shorter version. The only OS you care about is Linux.

Of course arguing with you to open your mind is moot. You are only going to use Linux no matter what. Your mind is completely closed on the topic...

Attacking us isn't going to fix Windows 10. I used to make fun of Linux on the desktop, but it's improved dramatically in the past year or so while Windows has really gotten pretty awful. That's all there is to it. Why attack the people who are pointing this out and making people aware that they may have other options besides Windows? You do realize this is a thread about Windows 10 alternatives?

If Linux doesn't work for you that's fine, but I switched to Linux Mint back in October and couldn't be happier. All my favorite games run on Linux now. All my hardware 'just works.'

 

[Snowdog]

Attacking us isn't going to fix Windows 10. I used to make fun of Linux on the desktop, but it's improved dramatically in the past year or so while Windows has really gotten pretty awful. That's all there is to it. Why attack the people who are pointing this out and making people aware that they may have other options besides Windows? You do realize this is a tread about Windows 10 alternatives?

If Linux doesn't work for you that's fine, but I switched to Linux Mint back in October and couldn't be happier. All my favorite games run on Linux now. All my hardware 'just works.'

I am pointing out the truth of the software deficiencies of Linux, while you guys keep saying the equivalent of: All my favorite games/applications are on Linux.

All that means is you aren't interested in very many games/applications, or more accurately in the case of some of you, that you will only use what is available on Linux.

I think most of you need to get familiar with the concept of Sour Grapes. Because it looks like this is the behavior you are engaged in when you make claims like that. It is very unlikely that coincidentally, your favorite games are all in the minority that run on Linux.

You are correct this article was about potential alternatives. But just like in the original article, if you bothered to read it, I am pointing out that it is NOT a good alternative for most people, because of the missing games/software/HW support.

Judging by responses from you and BulletDust, it is just those who will cut themselves off from the majority of all software because they hate Windows so much.

As long as this is the type of audience Linux draws it will stay on the fringe.

A successful Desktop needs more than a hatred of Windows to be a success.

 

[BulletDust]

I can't even read his posts, so if his saying anything directed at me his pretty much wasting his time.

I'm not interested in reading his dribble.

 

[heatlesssun]

Which doesn't matter in the slightest, once again you have no idea what you are talking about. Take the following example Heatlesssun:

Linux: 1.0% @ 50,000 Steam users overall.

vs

Linux: 1.0% @ 100,000 Steam users overall.

So the number of Steam users under Linux has doubled because the pie is now bigger, the OS the bulk of the users are running is completely irrelevant, the only figure that really matters is the percentage.

But since Windows has a much larger share of Steam users, growth in Steam means FAR more Windows users are being added in absolute terms than Linux users, possible as higher as over 95 to 1 going by the percentages in the Steam Hardware Survey. I know you think those numbers are crap, but even if they are, there's no doubt that there are many times more Windows users on Steam than Linux. So yes, Linux gaming is growing but the gap, in absolute terms between Windows, in both game titles and users, is probably widening, significantly.

Very true, some may also be interested in Linux and would like to participate freely and openly without misinformed Windows users doing their best to bury any discussion that doesn't work in favour of Windows. Once again, humble pie = respect.

Misinformed how? Bury discussion that doesn't work in favor of Windows? LOL! It easy to identfity the problems in Windows 10 for the most part. I may think the issues are a bit overhyped but I do agree with a number of the concerns over privacy and updating. But no, Microsoft isn't taking personal data from Windows telemetry and selling it. I've seen no evidence of that and I don't see how that would even benefit Microsoft.

Linux has been on Steam for ~2-3 years vs Windows at ~10 years ignoring the early years where Steam was pretty much shunning everyone in favour of their own HalfLife series of games. As stated, in a very short period of time gaming support under Linux has literally exploded in a way I personally never saw coming and never thought possible. Not everyone is into the latest AAA gaming as you are and people's PC needs vary greatly. I am sick and tired of you completely ignoring this growth while chanting the rhetoric "But growth under Windows!" We are all full aware of where Windows stands in relation to Steam and gaming, none of us here are stupid - However, I can assure you that when you blatantly ignore certain facts over and over again and just keep chanting the previously mentioned mantra you appear stupid. Now don't take offence at that remark as I'm sure you are not stupid, however you cannot argue with the facts, and I have provided facts over and over again in relation to Linux growth. Stop acting all butt hurt over the fact that I'm not singing the praises of Microsoft and admit that there is a certain growth in relation to Linux that has never been seen in the past.

Point being, providing Linux keeps growing and support keeps improving I'm sure than given another ~2 years VR titles may begin to be supported under Linux provided the technology takes off - Considering Valve's attention span's only second to Google's I'm not holding my breath over VR just yet.

To quote Frobozz:



Seriously, as PC users is this so wrong?! You fight the growth of Linux so hard and I honestly have no idea why? We get it, it's not suitable for you, why not just leave it at that and move on? Do you think I'm somehow lying or exaggerating the truth? Because all through all of these threads I have done my best to back my comments up with facts.



And no one has disputed these facts. As stated early on in this thread, if you absolutely need professional packages under Windows than stick to Windows. But not everyone needs these software packages and many individuals can actually switch to a similar package under a different platform considering the individual needs required from their PC - There is no arguing this point, it's fact. Accept it and move on.

Yes, you could argue that Windows already supports such packages so you may as well run Windows, but in arguing such a perspective you've missed the point of the discussion completely - In this discussion people are tired of the Windows ecosystem for whatever reason and want to move on, there's nothing wrong with that, especially considering many of Microsoft's choices as of late.

I switched to Linux and it is literally one of the best things I ever did. We are PC enthusiasts, we support the PC as a platform, screw the OS.

Here's the issue and yeah it's a big problem if one wants the most choice in games for the PC:

Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 63
Windows VR games (all Windows only) added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 79
Windows non-VR games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 385


So Windows is on track to get about 4500 new games just this year, not even counting VR. Linux on track to be well short of a thousand new games at 760 and VR close to a thousand at 950. And it's a proper superset of Windows games relative to Linux, all the Linux titles are available on Windows. In absolute terms the gap in game choice is WIDENING SIGNIFICANTLY between Linux and Windows. One can be committed to Linux and gaming all they want but this is the reality and sure in a vacuum Linux gaming is growing. But it's not relative to Windows and as a gaming alternative to Windows this is a big problem for Linux. Again, that's just the reality of the situation.

As a long term, hardcore SLI gamer it took me a while to realise one very important fact - The benefits don't outweigh the cost, especially when support is so sketchy.

I wouldn't normally recommend SLI or CF these days but it still can provide good performance increases to a number of games. So it's a matter of what a person wants how much they are willing to pay for the little bit extra in performance in some games.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

All that means is you aren't interested in very many games/applications, or more accurately in the case of some of you, that you will only use what is available on Linux.

I think most of you need to get familiar with the concept of Sour Grapes. Because it looks like this is the behavior you are engaged in when you make claims like that. It is very unlikely that coincidentally, your favorite games are all in the minority that run on Linux.

I had a good experience with Linux so I must be a liar? 1/3 of my Steam collection runs on Linux, and that doesn't even get into Wine. My absolute favorite game is Kerbal Space Program, right now I'm also playing Cities:Skylines, Europa Universalis IV, Civ V, Civ - Beyond Earth, Stellaris, Hearts of Iron IV, Doom 2016, Minecraft, and Age of Empires II HD. They all run fine on Linux.

You are correct this article was about potential alternatives. But just like in the original article, if you bothered to read it, I am pointing out that it is NOT a good alternative for most people, because of the missing games/software/HW support.

Judging by responses from you and BulletDust, it is just those who will cut themselves off from the majority of all software because they hate Windows so much.

As long as this is the type of audience Linux draws it will stay on the fringe.

A successful Desktop needs more than a hatred of Windows to be a success.

I don't know what else to tell you. I'm a long time Windows user and gamer who thought Linux on the desktop was a joke. It's not anymore. All my hardware works and I have more games than time to play.

 

[heatlesssun]

I had a good experience with Linux so I must be a liar? 1/3 of my Steam collection runs on Linux, and that doesn't even get into Wine. My absolute favorite game is Kerbal Space Program, right now I'm also playing Cities:Skylines, Europa Universalis IV, Civ V, Civ - Beyond Earth, Stellaris, Hearts of Iron IV, Doom 2016, Minecraft, and Age of Empires II HD. They all run fine on Linux.

I don't know what else to tell you. I'm a long time Windows user and gamer who thought Linux on the desktop was a joke. It's not anymore. All my hardware works and I have more games than time to play.

It's not a matter of anyone lying, it's a matter of perspective based on needs, wants and what works for individuals. If desktop Linux works for you and others, great. I'm not debating that. But a lot pro-desktop Linux folks, and there's a lot of this in this thread, I believe or overselling the state of desktop Linux today. Has Linux desktop improved over time? Sure. But the software support issues are still there and that situation just hasn't improved, not relative to Windows.

The situation is beyond obvious just looking at Steam, where Windows is getting more games than ever and at a 5 to 1 ratio compared to Linux. While you and others may not care, MANY people are going to care about this kind of this. It's not just something that can be ignored in desktop Linux is ever going to stand as a true alternative to Windows, where you could just replace Windows with Linux and because the desktop Linux is close to Windows, most people making that transition wouldn't miss a beat.

You can't just say Linux is great on the desktop and then say "There's more games on Linux than anyone could play so the state of Linux is fine and there's always Wine." when Windows is getting 5 times more games. Or that some alternative software package is just as good as commercial versions when that's not at all an easy to say without knowing how an individual uses such applications. Or that hardware compatibility in Linux is great and then say "You should have bought some other kind hardware." when that hardware isn't all that Linux friendly.

If the goal is to use Linux full time and whatever compromises one makes are fine to achieve that are acceptable to those people, that's their choice. That's not going to be the choice that will work for everyone. And in gaming I think it's a choice that will work for few that are more interested in playing whatever PC than running desktop Linux.

 

[Snowdog]

I had a good experience with Linux so I must be a liar? 1/3 of my Steam collection runs on Linux, and that doesn't even get into Wine. My absolute favorite game is Kerbal Space Program, right now I'm also playing Cities:Skylines, Europa Universalis IV, Civ V, Civ - Beyond Earth, Stellaris, Hearts of Iron IV, Doom 2016, Minecraft, and Age of Empires II HD. They all run fine on Linux.

I don't know what else to tell you. I'm a long time Windows user and gamer who thought Linux on the desktop was a joke. It's not anymore. All my hardware works and I have more games than time to play.

And if KSP didn't run on Linux, would it be your favorite game? I doubt it. Selection bias and sour grapes at work.

It's like someone claiming to be a movie buff, that only watches movies on the theater a block away from his house, that only gets 20% of blockbuster movies. But it just happens to be the 20% he wants to see. Not getting Star Wars: The Last Jedi. That's OK didn't want to see it anyway. No Blade Runner 2049, or no The Dark Tower, Same answer.

What games are Hot in 2017, RE7 right now, but you don't care. Coming Soon is Mass Effect Andromeda. Probably the most anticipated game this year, but of course you don't care. For Honor also looks interesting, but again, I am sure you don't care. Just like you are sure your future favorite games will run on Linux. The precognition powers of diehard Linux apologists is amazing.

While this coincidence of having your favorite games land in the 20-30% of games that gets Linux ports works for you, that doesn't make it a great alternative for most other gamers, who are unlikely to be so lucky.

 

[tetris42]

Attacking us isn't going to fix Windows 10. I used to make fun of Linux on the desktop, but it's improved dramatically in the past year or so while Windows has really gotten pretty awful. That's all there is to it. Why attack the people who are pointing this out and making people aware that they may have other options besides Windows? You do realize this is a thread about Windows 10 alternatives?

If Linux doesn't work for you that's fine, but I switched to Linux Mint back in October and couldn't be happier. All my favorite games run on Linux now. All my hardware 'just works.'

Speaking for myself, I'm not out to attack people who are into Linux, I sincerely hope the situation gets better and better and more people move to it. I'm not OPTIMISTIC about that happening, but I'd certainly like to see it happen. What I dislike are the grandioise statements detached from reality. You yourself said in a different thread "You don't need Windows" the end, like this applies to everyone. People are saying there's enough games on Linux for everybody, regardless of tastes, people are saying WINE is as functional as DOSbox, and of course, the person saying Microsoft secretly has a version of Windows coded on Linux, waiting for the right moment to deploy it. I'm finding the pattern of most pro-Linux people here is they'll say 2 or 3 reasonable statements, then say something that's just pie-in-the-sky, then get defensive when THAT gets called out on. I don't think anyone here is against Linux, we're just against it being pitched as something it's not.

And if KSP didn't run on Linux, would it be your favorite game? I doubt it. Selection bias and sour grapes at work.

It's like someone claiming to be a movie buff, that only watches movies on the theater a block away from his house, that only gets 20% of blockbuster movies. But it just happens to be the 20% he wants to see. Not getting Star Wars: The Last Jedi. That's OK didn't want to see it anyway. No Blade Runner 2049, or no The Dark Tower, Same answer.

What games are Hot in 2017, RE7 right now, but you don't care. Coming Soon is Mass Effect Andromeda. Probably the most anticipated game this year, but of course you don't care. For Honor also looks interesting, but again, I am sure you don't care. Just like you are sure your future favorite games will run on Linux. The precognition powers of diehard Linux apologists is amazing.

While this coincidence of having your favorite games land in the 20-30% of games that gets Linux ports works for you, that doesn't make it a great alternative for most other gamers, who are unlikely to be so lucky.

That's a pretty good analogy actually. The thing is, it's just a matter of numbers and probability. I'm actually not that interested in the next Mass Effect and For Honor, but hey, I DO want to play RE7. If you're on Linux, you're lowering the potential hits you can get. So let's say you don't care for any of the AAA titles in a given year, fine. Well the problem is that there's almost certainly going to be another game you DO want to play that year that isn't coming to Linux. I mean this is of course if games are what you're into. If you're not, any old game will do. It's like me with Office programs. A few people really NEED Microsoft Office for the work they do. Me, I couldn't care less. If I can type a document, do a basic spreadsheet, any old program will do. I think it's safe to say Linux has anyone covered who falls into the category of "need a program with general functionality." It has options galore. When you need SPECIFIC software (like games) or software with very SPECIFIC options that aren't replicated elsewhere, that's where it starts running into trouble.

 

[Frobozz]

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's panties are in a knot. The article frames the discussion with essentially "You don't like Windows 10. What are you going to do about it?"
I guess nothing?

 

[BulletDust]

But since Windows has a much larger share of Steam users, growth in Steam means FAR more Windows users are being added in absolute terms than Linux users, possible as higher as over 95 to 1 going by the percentages in the Steam Hardware Survey. I know you think those numbers are crap, but even if they are, there's no doubt that there are many times more Windows users on Steam than Linux. So yes, Linux gaming is growing but the gap, in absolute terms between Windows, in both game titles and users, is probably widening, significantly.

Which, once again, means nothing. I already stated that everyone knows all about Windows position on the Steam platform and yet you keep persisting with this moot point?

The only thing concerning Linux users is Linux growth under Steam, Windows growth under Steam is irrelevant as we don't run Windows. The percentage proves that Linux gaming under steam has grown significantly.

Misinformed how? Bury discussion that doesn't work in favor of Windows? LOL! It easy to identfity the problems in Windows 10 for the most part. I may think the issues are a bit overhyped but I do agree with a number of the concerns over privacy and updating. But no, Microsoft isn't taking personal data from Windows telemetry and selling it. I've seen no evidence of that and I don't see how that would even benefit Microsoft.

You post opinion relating to Linux as fact and it is obvious you have literally no idea what you are talking about.

Here's the issue and yeah it's a big problem if one wants the most choice in games for the PC:

Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 63
Windows VR games (all Windows only) added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 79
Windows non-VR games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 385


So Windows is on track to get about 4500 new games just this year, not even counting VR. Linux on track to be well short of a thousand new games at 760 and VR close to a thousand at 950. And it's a proper superset of Windows games relative to Linux, all the Linux titles are available on Windows. In absolute terms the gap in game choice is WIDENING SIGNIFICANTLY between Linux and Windows. One can be committed to Linux and gaming all they want but this is the reality and sure in a vacuum Linux gaming is growing. But it's not relative to Windows and as a gaming alternative to Windows this is a big problem for Linux. Again, that's just the reality of the situation.

Which, once again, means nothing. The only thing that matters is growth under Linux, as stated yet again, we're all well aware of Windows position on the Steam platform, it didn't stop us from switching to Linux and I doubt it will really sway many other users considering switching to Windows who aren't die hard gamers - Remember how I stated you make yourself look stupid when you just continually keep missing the point?

I wouldn't normally recommend SLI or CF these days but it still can provide good performance increases to a number of games. So it's a matter of what a person wants how much they are willing to pay for the little bit extra in performance in some games.

Most of Steam is Indi titles these days, if you enjoy these titles SLI is worthless, if you game in Windowed mode, SLI is useless, even under some AAA titles SLI is useless - Especially on launch. Like NVS it was a great idea at the time that is since dwindling as the manufacturer looses interest.

I'm so sick and tired of repeating myself because you refuse to admit a certain point, it's a joke, it really is a joke.

 

[Snowdog]

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's panties are in a knot. The article frames the discussion with essentially "You don't like Windows 10. What are you going to do about it?"
I guess nothing?

Sticking with Windows 7.

That's a pretty good analogy actually. The thing is, it's just a matter of numbers and probability. I'm actually not that interested in the next Mass Effect and For Honor, but hey, I DO want to play RE7. If you're on Linux, you're lowering the potential hits you can get. So let's say you don't care for any of the AAA titles in a given year, fine. Well the problem is that there's almost certainly going to be another game you DO want to play that year that isn't coming to Linux. I mean this is of course if games are what you're into. If you're not, any old game will do. It's like me with Office programs. A few people really NEED Microsoft Office for the work they do. Me, I couldn't care less. If I can type a document, do a basic spreadsheet, any old program will do. I think it's safe to say Linux has anyone covered who falls into the category of "need a program with general functionality." It has options galore. When you need SPECIFIC software (like games) or software with very SPECIFIC options that aren't replicated elsewhere, that's where it starts running into trouble.

That is it exactly.

Games come up so often, because for anyone into games, you want to play specific games, not just some games to fill your time (the phrase that comes up so frequently from Linux apologists).

But I feel the same about other software. I don't want to be regulated to using the second or third best alternative because the best ones aren't available on Linux.

I don't love Windows. If the software situation was reversed and Linux had all the software, I would be using Linux, and questioning why anyone would suggest Windows. It's the software/HW support, not minutia about where your taskbar is, or about how evil corporations are.

Windows has all the best SW (Games and Productivity, and Multimedia, etc...), and the best HW support, so the real question is not: "Can some people get by with Linux?" But instead: "Why would you give all the best SW/HW, and settle for 2nd or 3rd best in every category?"