Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[Snowdog]

GPU development may have started that way... but lets all be honest with ourselves. For companies like Nvidia... they have moved their development more and more toward other markets. They don't even like using the term GPU much anymore.

We have never said if you love windows games you should stop running Windows.

What most of us have been suggesting is you should think about dual booting. (to which some windows people) have replied that they won't bother because it takes work.

As someone who has dual booted Linux/Windows numerous times, it indeed becomes a drag the longer you do and when it fully dons on you that Windows does 100% of what you need and Linux does only 50% or less, it ends poorly for Linux.

Perhaps what I will do to inject something a bit different into this argument back and forth is list the ADVANTAGES to dual booting Linux and Windows. (As I and many other Linux boosters do)

1) Use Windows ONLY for things that are not critical to me. Yes my documents and other important WORK is on my Linux drive... a drive which is running a more advanced file system where files are far less likely to get corrupted or lost in an OS crash. I am also running a much more secure OS for anything important to me... no virus issues, no real worries about malware or anything else. My Linux system is secure, that may not matter to everyone. Still it can't be argued really.
2) Because my Windows drive ONLY plays a handful of games... my Windows runs faster for longer. Yes Windows uses the terrible NTFS which still requires a regular defrag regiment.... and it uses the Windows system which tends to bloat its own registry and in general slows down the more you install.
3) I never have to worry about a forced update barging in on me while I'm doing anything important.
4) Because my windows is a games only drive... I can run a nice lean stripped down windows tailored for my games and games alone.
5) I run my windows copy on its own Drive and I have OS redundancy... well ok no Linux has never ever ever died on me but previous copies of windows have. Granted you could always boot from a USB to recover things from a drive that isn't 100% dead... still if a drive does 100% fail your system still has a booting OS. (when I decided to kill my Win 10 drive and reinstall Win7... I copied a handful of files from Win 10 to my Linux drive from Linux... one hell of a lot easier and faster then messing around copying things to backups. Linux has no issues reading and writing NTFS)
6) I tend to waste less time with a few time wasting (online) games... as I will simply decide to not reboot when I should be working. (OK I am half joking don't jump on this heatle... I'm giving you ammo lol)

This certainly can be argued, because it sounds like you are talking about Windows XP. I clean installed Windows 7 about 7 years ago. I am still running on that original install, that gets heavy daily use (it's my only home computer). Gaming/Internet/Video processing. Usually, my machine runs 24/7 for much of those 7 years. I install all kinds of crap. I run defrag manually (and haven't run it months). I haven't seen any slowdowns, and never had a Virus.

Windows 7 is the most solid OS I have ever used (and yes that includes Linux).

So that list is mostly a bunch of outdated FUD.

Only #3 is a legitimate gripe for Windows 10, and since I don't use it, I can't comment, but Heatless can probably comment if you can exclusion times at least blocking updates during critical times. If that doesn't exist now, I imagine it will in the future.

IMO there is no reason not to run both at this point.

Linux does so many things better, where it lacks and no one really denies it is console port game support. (again freaking joking... seriously for some game types that aren't simply on PS4 like Online MMOs Windows is still better) So in my case when I am playing games I'm likely in LInux 80% of the time... but for some specific games (in my case mostly Online games where I PvP ect I boot into my stripped down game running Win 7 drive). I mean what is the argument against... that it is a pain in the butt ? Who is that important that they can't shut down Linux (5s in my case) and Restart Windows (30s or so).

You really haven't given any real reason to run both. Just Windows XP FUD why we shouldn't run Windows.

And for the what must be the 10th time. The Windows Advantage is Not just Games. Its Applications software, It's multimedia Software, It's proprietary software support for gadgets like GPS, Its TV recording from Cable cards, etc...

It's everything that computers do.

Just because you don't do any of those things, doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

 

[ChadD]

FUD....

Didn't realize Microsoft stopped using the 20 year old NTFS file system recently ? I guess you no longer have to defrag.... you realize this is FAT32 / NTFS only solution because they are both terrible right ?

I'm glad your system has had no issues with registry creep. Considering a google of "Windows Registry error" returns 35,300,000 results I'm going to guess your experience isn't the only one out there. In your defense "windows 7 Registry only returns 933,000 results. "windows 10 Registry error" 12,300,000 SO.... perhaps you have a point and MS has been sliding backwards. lmao

Seriously as is the case with any well tended system... most things can be worked around. Sure you can defrag with the better faster software... you can keep your own reg clean if you know what your doing. You can do 1001 things to keep windows working well. The point I made is still relevant... Windows runs better with less junk installed. If your seriously into gaming as some are arguing... running their games on a lean mean windows gaming machine is preferable.
I would be willing to bet if you benched your favorite game on your current been running for years install... and then did a clean install you would gain a few frames. Just saying, its a valid point I believe, clean install for any version of windows does run better. (I'm not disagreeing completely about Win7... I still run Win7 and have no intention of upgrading my windows again 7 does run better imo)

 

[DeathFromBelow]

IMO there is no reason not to run both at this point.

I get the impression that's exactly why they're worried. Home users do not need Windows on every machine anymore. At this point most home users could run Linux as their primary OS and keep a Windows install on one machine for streaming Windows-only games or whatever.

 

[ChadD]

I get the impression that's exactly why they're worried. Home users do not need Windows on every machine anymore. At this point most home users could run Linux as their primary OS and keep a Windows install on one machine for streaming Windows-only games or whatever.

Lets be honest this is exactly what they are already doing.

They are taking care of the majority of their computer needs in Linux right now (Android). My 3 boys are 27,25,24 one doesn't even own a computer... the other two do almost everything on their phones and have windows laptops they use for resumes and such. That is the reality for most regular folk these days. (I tried to make them geekier it just didn't take)

EDIT correction... one has a windows laptop. The other had his windows shit the bed a year ago, and he asked me to put Linux on it for him. All he wanted to do was log into his facebook once in awhile and surf porn. (ok he didn't say that but I'm not stupid... lol)

 

[Snowdog]

I get the impression that's exactly why they're worried. Home users do not need Windows on every machine anymore. At this point most home users could run Linux as their primary OS and keep a Windows install on one machine for streaming Windows-only games or whatever.

I am not worried. I mostly dislike Microsoft and don't have any of their stock.

As I said before. I am on Windows for the software. Not the OS. But the the OS has no glaring deficiencies either.

Linux has nothing that touches WMC for TV recording, Nothing that touches VideoRedo for editing commercials. Linux does not natively work with my handheld GPS, nor my GPS watch. Linux does not natively run 75% of my games.

Those are some of the big ones that affect me directly and everyone's case will be different. I am sure I would find MANY more if I seriously tried to switch.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Linux has nothing that touches WMC for TV recording

Neither does Windows 10.

Kodi works quite well as a media center.

 

[BulletDust]

I'm not convincing anyone to use anything, I'm to busy fending off Heatlesssun's BS to do that....

 

[heatlesssun]

IMO there is no reason not to run both at this point.

Who'd recommend dual booting to the average PC user? I know I wouldn't. If someone wants to run Linux that's fine, who cares? But dual booting can be a pain and it's something one should understand before they do it which wouldn't be a typical PC user. They might be better off just running Linux full time.

 

[heatlesssun]

I get the impression that's exactly why they're worried. Home users do not need Windows on every machine anymore. At this point most home users could run Linux as their primary OS and keep a Windows install on one machine for streaming Windows-only games or whatever.

Worried? LOL! I've long said that many PC users who only have basic needs could probably run Linux. It's this stuff about dual booting and streaming. Do those things if you like but it's complexity that typical people aren't going to want to deal with.

 

[heatlesssun]

Your argument is half the way there heatle you still use words like "top line" commercial software. Just because someone charges more doesn't mean its better. Many professionals use Linux... because it is BETTER. If your a PROFESSIONAL web developer chances that you are not running windows are pretty darn high. Why mess around with hacking stuff to run on windows when it all runs native on Linux. Considering that the majority of development these days is web based or at least ties into... yes Linux has a far greater % of usage with that crowd.

Professional developers use Windows plenty, not really sure where you're going with that. As for top line commercial software, there's a long history around some it like Photoshop and Office, yeah, those are top line commercial offerings that have been popular forever. Affinity that you mentioned, maybe not top line but commercial and no Linux version. I actually bought a copy for the hell of it.

 

[Snowdog]

Neither does Windows 10.

Kodi works quite well as a media center.

Yes, Windows 10 is missing WMC for TV recording. It's a big reason I never considered upgrading to Windows 10.

How about the rest of the things I mentioned? Because even missing WMC, when the days of Windows 7 are over, Windows 10 will still cover the others and Linux won't.

 

[heatlesssun]

EDIT correction... one has a windows laptop. The other had his windows shit the bed a year ago, and he asked me to put Linux on it for him. All he wanted to do was log into his facebook once in awhile and surf porn. (ok he didn't say that but I'm not stupid... lol)

And THIS has been the kind of Windows user I've said over and over is by far the easiest to convert to Linux. Not the person that thousands in hardware and software that doesn't have the support under Linux. And this is what I mean by overselling. No one here would argue what the basic PC user might be able to use Linux. But then dual booting, and streaming games and alternative software that's not as good as claimed often times, etc.

 

[tetris42]

GPU development may have started that way... but lets all be honest with ourselves. For companies like Nvidia... they have moved their development more and more toward other markets. They don't even like using the term GPU much anymore.

We have never said if you love windows games you should stop running Windows.

What most of us have been suggesting is you should think about dual booting. (to which some windows people) have replied that they won't bother because it takes work.

Perhaps what I will do to inject something a bit different into this argument back and forth is list the ADVANTAGES to dual booting Linux and Windows. (As I and many other Linux boosters do)

1) Use Windows ONLY for things that are not critical to me. Yes my documents and other important WORK is on my Linux drive... a drive which is running a more advanced file system where files are far less likely to get corrupted or lost in an OS crash. I am also running a much more secure OS for anything important to me... no virus issues, no real worries about malware or anything else. My Linux system is secure, that may not matter to everyone. Still it can't be argued really.
2) Because my Windows drive ONLY plays a handful of games... my Windows runs faster for longer. Yes Windows uses the terrible NTFS which still requires a regular defrag regiment.... and it uses the Windows system which tends to bloat its own registry and in general slows down the more you install.
3) I never have to worry about a forced update barging in on me while I'm doing anything important.
4) Because my windows is a games only drive... I can run a nice lean stripped down windows tailored for my games and games alone.
5) I run my windows copy on its own Drive and I have OS redundancy... well ok no Linux has never ever ever died on me but previous copies of windows have. Granted you could always boot from a USB to recover things from a drive that isn't 100% dead... still if a drive does 100% fail your system still has a booting OS. (when I decided to kill my Win 10 drive and reinstall Win7... I copied a handful of files from Win 10 to my Linux drive from Linux... one hell of a lot easier and faster then messing around copying things to backups. Linux has no issues reading and writing NTFS)
6) I tend to waste less time with a few time wasting (online) games... as I will simply decide to not reboot when I should be working. (OK I am half joking don't jump on this heatle... I'm giving you ammo lol)

IMO there is no reason not to run both at this point.

Linux does so many things better, where it lacks and no one really denies it is console port game support. (again freaking joking... seriously for some game types that aren't simply on PS4 like Online MMOs Windows is still better) So in my case when I am playing games I'm likely in LInux 80% of the time... but for some specific games (in my case mostly Online games where I PvP ect I boot into my stripped down game running Win 7 drive). I mean what is the argument against... that it is a pain in the butt ? Who is that important that they can't shut down Linux (5s in my case) and Restart Windows (30s or so).

I can say that the software I use that I don't think there's a viable Linux equivalent for me is too numerous that I would be booting back and forth maybe a dozen times a day. On the contrary, it would be such an issue, I think I could only consider having Linux run as a VM and swap back and forth that way. This takes away some from the convenience, which forces me to question what I'm getting.

As for your list, you have some valid points, but they're already mitigated on my end. I have anti-virus and malware scans which I run if I'm suspicious of anything. I have an SSD. Any slowdown from NTFS or the registry I simply have not noticed since I moved to one. Not saying it's not there, I'm saying I think they've been largely neutralized by SSDs. #3 is fucking huge and is the prime reason I'm not moving to Windows 10 anytime soon. But hey, I'm still on 7 and handle my updates manually. You're saying Linux does so many things better, but I don't think anything on your list really applies to me in any significant way. Customizing the GUI is definitely something I'm interested in, but that's not enough to make me leave Windows on its own. Compatibility has always been a huge thing for me. Christ, I'm always reluctant to move to ANY newer OS because I always dread which of my old programs are going to break. In any event, let's hear more of these advantages. Say you're a security-conscience person and have an SSD also. Again, I think #3 is the only heavyweight reason you've listed.

 

[ChadD]

Who'd recommend dual booting to the average PC user? I know I wouldn't. If someone wants to run Linux that's fine, who cares? But dual booting can be a pain and it's something one should understand before they do it which wouldn't be a typical PC user. They might be better off just running Linux full time.

NO I am recommending dual booting to people like you .... that claim you want the best of the best of the best of everything. And are competent with computers as anyone who is on HardOCP... cause they as you claim are high end gamers willing to shell out for the best of the best of the best hardware and software.

The average person should just run Linux >.<

They don't have to worrry about it blow up on them cause they go to the wrong porn site (my son lol). Seriously... for the average computer user we will be there in the next few years and you know it. No they won't be running the Distros us Linux heads are running. They will be running Chrome and whatever Google decides to morph it into over the next few years when they decide its finally time to go after MS higher end laptop / 2in1 market. (was convinced they where going to do that last year... I think most people know its coming) Chrome books are just a toe in the water.

At some point the average person is going to be running Chrome / Android OS. Chances of Google merging the two in the next few years and just calling it GoogleOS or something is pretty high. Its also possible at that point they start getting real game support as well. Especially if MS scorpio console flops and MS backs away from throwing $ around at the gaming industry. Which is likely as many of their largest investors have already expressed a desire for them to abandon Consoles. Hence them trying so hard to Hide Xbox Profits... err losses.

Really heatle I'm not waiting for that all excited to see the giant die. GoogleOS isn't going to be any better for us... just a new master. If google goes that way its a pretty damn good deal for them... lots of Kernel development and $ spent by other companies that they get to profit on. I doubt their OS would be very open. We can hope its not really evil. Still it could mean good things for Linux in general. *could*

I think MS does see that coming. They have made some bad choices but they aren't run by complete morons. I'm sure all their recent Linux and Open source love has everything to do with what they see down the road.

 

[ChadD]

I can say that the software I use that I don't think there's a viable Linux equivalent for me is too numerous that I would be booting back and forth maybe a dozen times a day. On the contrary, it would be such an issue, I think I could only consider having Linux run as a VM and swap back and forth that way. This takes away some from the convenience, which forces me to question what I'm getting.

As for your list, you have some valid points, but they're already mitigated on my end. I have anti-virus and malware scans which I run if I'm suspicious of anything. I have an SSD. Any slowdown from NTFS or the registry I simply have not noticed since I moved to one. Not saying it's not there, I'm saying I think they've been largely neutralized by SSDs. #3 is fucking huge and is the prime reason I'm not moving to Windows 10 anytime soon. But hey, I'm still on 7 and handle my updates manually. You're saying Linux does so many things better, but I don't think anything on your list really applies to me in any significant way. Customizing the GUI is definitely something I'm interested in, but that's not enough to make me leave Windows on its own. Compatibility has always been a huge thing for me. Christ, I'm always reluctant to move to ANY newer OS because I always dread which of my old programs are going to break. In any event, let's hear more of these advantages. Say you're a security-conscience person and have an SSD also. Again, I think #3 is the only heavyweight reason you've listed.

Fair and I understand where your coming from. It isn't going to be for everyone and every use. It is a viable alternate though over Win 10... and hey by the time Win 7 support ends, that will be even more true.

One weekend when your bored (if your life isn't that busy anyway). Pull out that old HDD you replaced and load a distro up just to see what is new these days with Linux. It isn't the geek fest nightmare it was at one time and people still try to make it out to be. At the very least you get a little more XP with Linux... in case the day comes where MS really pushes your buttons.

 

[heatlesssun]

The average person should just run Linux >.<

Perhaps. It would all depend on needs and wants, if it's typical low level stuff it should be fine.

They don't have to worrry about it blow up on them cause they go to the wrong porn site (my son lol). Seriously... for the average computer user we will be there in the next few years and you know it. No they won't be running the Distros us Linux heads are running. They will be running Chrome and whatever Google decides to morph it into over the next few years when they decide its finally time to go after MS higher end laptop / 2in1 market. (was convinced they where going to do that last year... I think most people know its coming) Chrome books are just a toe in the water.

I'm visiting the wrong porn sites in VR these days, not had a Windows machine blow up from that. And we've been down this road many, many times. The Year of Linux. Now it's going to be the Year of the Chromebook?

I think MS does see that coming. They have made some bad choices but they aren't run by complete morons. I'm sure all their recent Linux and Open source love has everything to do with what they see down the road.

Microsoft is in no where near any position of dying off. Windows is still a very compelling product just because there's nothing that's close to replicating all that it supports on an x86 desktop. Only when someone comes pretty close to replicating this ecosystem with clear advantages is Windows ever going away.

 

[Snowdog]

NO I am recommending dual booting to people like you .... that claim you want the best of the best of the best of everything. And are competent with computers as anyone who is on HardOCP... cause they as you claim are high end gamers willing to shell out for the best of the best of the best hardware and software.

The average person should just run Linux >.<

They don't have to worrry about it blow up on them cause they go to the wrong porn site (my son lol). Seriously... .

Actually it's more like:

Windows for most people.
Linux for those who are computer literate and have a serious chip on their shoulder about Windows.
Chromebooks for people that can't handle a real computer.

 

[heatlesssun]

Fair and I understand where your coming from. It isn't going to be for everyone and every use. It is a viable alternate though over Win 10... and hey by the time Win 7 support ends, that will be even more true.

The basic issues with Linux that tetris stated are no different for a Windows 10 user who has exactly the same issues.

One weekend when your bored (if your life isn't that busy anyway). Pull out that old HDD you replaced and load a distro up just to see what is new these days with Linux. It isn't the geek fest nightmare it was at one time and people still try to make it out to be.

I have a couple of SSDs laying around and was thinking about installing a distro on my sig rig. Honestly though, every time I do it simply ends up being "What was the point?" Just to spend time replicating setups that are working fine? I guess that's the other part of it. If Windows is always causing one problems, well duh, of course they are looking for alternatives. If everything is working well for someone, then not as much motivation.

 

[Deleted whining member 223597]

I used Windows 7 for the past week since it was preloaded on this PC...and now I'm back to Windows 10. I just got used to the 8.1 interface, which is pretty much the same on 10, and can't really go back. Windows 7 is less intuitive for certain tasks IMO. That means in my OPINION, so don't get your panties in a bunch if you don't agree.

 

[SmokeRngs]

Microsoft is in no where near any position of dying off. Windows is still a very compelling product just because there's nothing that's close to replicating all that it supports on an x86 desktop. Only when someone comes pretty close to replicating this ecosystem with clear advantages is Windows ever going away.

And here we finally come to the real point of it all. Windows is only where it is because it's an entrenched product. It's not because of being a superior product or a technically more advanced product. The only reason Windows has a current effective monopoly is due to past entrenchment. The only reason Windows has more software is entrenchment.

Sadly, those like heatless who think Windows will continue to lead only because it does now are in for a rude surprise eventually. Entrenchment only takes you so far and MS is doing their damnedest to throw away that advantage as represented by the backlash against Windows 8 and 10. The push to move more games onto Linux through Steam may very well be one of the starting points for the downfall of the entrenchment of Windows.

Despite what heatless and others have tried to say, the vast majority of the average users would be just fine under Linux. The vast majority of people aren't gamers. The vast majority of people don't need to make and use massive and complicated spreadsheets in Excel and despite heatless' insistence most people don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about "ink".

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was for gaming I wouldn't bother with Windows. For a couple of years I did no or limited gaming and during that period I had Linux as my only OS and had no issues and this was about 10 years ago.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

I used Windows 7 for the past week since it was preloaded on this PC...and now I'm back to Windows 10. I just got used to the 8.1 interface, which is pretty much the same on 10, and can't really go back. Windows 7 is less intuitive for certain tasks IMO. That means in my OPINION, so don't get your panties in a bunch if you don't agree.

What tasks? I'm honestly interested, I have yet to meet a single person IRL who could actually use the Windows 8/10 interface efficiently without modifications/start menu replacements. It's an objectively bad UI, IMO.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was for gaming I wouldn't bother with Windows. For a couple of years I did no or limited gaming and during that period I had Linux as my only OS and had no issues and this was about 10 years ago.

I know it gets old, but I can't emphasize enough how much the gaming situation on Linux has improved in the past year or so. I go weeks without touching Windows now.

 

[tetris42]

The average person should just run Linux >.<

I'm actually in agreement with you there. If somebody just wants to get on the internet, type a paper, watch videos, not very picky about games, Linux fits the bill and can even be simple enough for grandma (if nothing goes wrong). It's too bad there's not more of an initiative to get Linux installed by default on new systems. As SmokeRngs says though, Windows has entrenchment, and it's a deep trench. I'm a lot less optimistic about the situation changing, but it's something I would love to be wrong about.

 

[Snowdog]

I'm actually in agreement with you there. If somebody just wants to get on the internet, type a paper, watch videos, not very picky about games, Linux fits the bill and can even be simple enough for grandma (if nothing goes wrong).

I am not so sure. Maybe if you start them with Linux, and they don't need much beyond a web browser.

I have a relative, who is a bit weak with technology that I gave an old computer to, showed him a few things, but it had WinXP on it. At some point I decided to put a dual boot for Linux on it, because XP, and Linux was free and he had no significant needs. Showed him equivalent programs he was using, and showed him how to select which OS, and defaulted it to Linux. The only new thing he became adept at was using the boot selector to select Windows.

Though if it was Windows 8-10 he probably would have done the same way.

IMO, most users don't want change, whether it's Linux or a new UI in Windows.

 

[heatlesssun]

Sadly, those like heatless who think Windows will continue to lead only because it does now are in for a rude surprise eventually. Entrenchment only takes you so far and MS is doing their damnedest to throw away that advantage as represented by the backlash against Windows 8 and 10. The push to move more games onto Linux through Steam may very well be one of the starting points for the downfall of the entrenchment of Windows.

I don't disagree with the first sentence here. But as for Steam and Linux, Windows games are being added at a 5 to 1 rate and almost a year into no SteamVR support. In absolute terms on Steam the gap between Linux and Windows in game titles is GREATER than when there ZERO games for Linux on Steam. So the day that you're talking about my come, but I guessing it won't come like that.

Despite what heatless and others have tried to say, the vast majority of the average users would be just fine under Linux.

Did I say otherwise? The issue I'm having here along with others that get my point is that Linux simply doesn't have the level of hardware and software support as Windows and yes, that's why I and many in a place like this use Windows. But I don't think the PC market that could just be has happy with a phone is really what the gunho pro-desktop Linux folks are aiming for.

The vast majority of people aren't gamers.

No, but this is a CRITICAL part of the PC market because it's one area that pushes things along. People who just need a web browser and basic content creation tools aren't pushing boundaries.

The vast majority of people don't need to make and use massive and complicated spreadsheets in Excel and despite heatless' insistence most people don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about "ink".

And here I thought the great thing about Linux was choice. Apparently not.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was for gaming I wouldn't bother with Windows. For a couple of years I did no or limited gaming and during that period I had Linux as my only OS and had no issues and this was about 10 years ago.

Ok. So except for gaming you wouldn't bother with Windows. Common sentiment with a lot of pro-desktop Linux folks. Then just play games available on Linux like other pro-desktop Linux folks do.

 

[heatlesssun]

What tasks? I'm honestly interested, I have yet to meet a single person IRL who could actually use the Windows 8/10 interface efficiently without modifications/start menu replacements. It's an objectively bad UI, IMO.

Define efficiently. Common stuff on the Task Bar, less common stuff on the Start Screen, infrequently used stuff type or use All Programs. Or in my case say "Hey Cortana, Open <Program>" from time to time. After that, using a LibreOffice or GIMP or Micorsoft Office or Photoshop of PowerDVD of Visual Studio or Eclipse or whatever, no difference.

I know it gets old, but I can't emphasize enough how much the gaming situation on Linux has improved in the past year or so. I go weeks without touching Windows now.

Gaming on Linux has improved relative to itself but in absolute terms has gotten worse.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm actually in agreement with you there. If somebody just wants to get on the internet, type a paper, watch videos, not very picky about games, Linux fits the bill and can even be simple enough for grandma (if nothing goes wrong). It's too bad there's not more of an initiative to get Linux installed by default on new systems. As SmokeRngs says though, Windows has entrenchment, and it's a deep trench. I'm a lot less optimistic about the situation changing, but it's something I would love to be wrong about.

Here's when you know things are changing. Linux gets support for niche things like VR and then Windows users wait a year and dismiss VR because of "people looking silly waving their hands in the air". Indeed as the PC market shrinks towards higher end activities and grandma uses a phone or tablet for web browsing, doing the stuff that can't be done or done easily on mobile is what will drive PCs.

 

[BulletDust]

His still comparing windows growth under Steam with Linux!

[Slams own head in door again!]

 

[heatlesssun]

His still comparing windows growth under Steam with Linux!

Because it's a thread about alternatives to Windows 10 and Linux is but one alternative. To compare alternatives one has to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the each of the alternatives in comparison to the strengths and weaknesses of Windows 10 to determine if that alternative is superior to Windows 10 in their judgment.

Linux gaming in my judgment, in a word, sucks in comparison to Windows 10. And I base that pretty much on the same metrics you have in regards to the growth of Linux gaming. I just accounted for the growth of Windows gaming as well, since again, this is a thread about alternatives to Windows 10. An OS that for all it's faults will receive pretty much 100% support of all PC gaming software and hardware for years to come.

 

[BulletDust]

Because it's a thread about alternatives to Windows 10 and Linux is but one alternative. To compare alternatives one has to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the each of the alternatives in comparison to the strengths and weaknesses of Windows 10 to determine if that alternative is superior to Windows 10 in their judgment.

Linux gaming in my judgment, in a word, sucks in comparison to Windows 10. And I base that pretty much on the same metrics you have in regards to the growth of Linux gaming. I just accounted for the growth of Windows gaming as well, since again, this is a thread about alternatives to Windows 10. An OS that for all it's faults will receive pretty much 100% support of all PC gaming software and hardware for years to come.

Yeah, not really. But whatever.

 

[Snowdog]

His still comparing windows growth under Steam with Linux!

I am pretty sure he mentioned all kinds of other software, and so did I.

But for some reasons Linux advocates, concentrate on the gaming aspect, and then complain about getting answers to their gaming claims.

It is about all Software ( Multimedia, Productivity, Gaming), and about HW device support. Windows has better offerings everywhere.

That isn't opinion. It's fact.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yeah, not really. But whatever.

So DeathFromBelow espouses the wonders of Linux gaming because 1/3rd of his Steam library has Linux clients and you've created numerous threads on the subject Linux gaming. Then when someone compares the growth Linux games to Windows games on Steam, "Not really" is your answer in a thread comparing Windows 10 to alternatives? Seriously?

 

[tetris42]

I am pretty sure he mentioned all kinds of other software, and so did I.

But for some reasons Linux advocates, concentrate on the gaming aspect, and then complain about getting answers to their gaming claims.

It is about all Software ( Multimedia, Productivity, Gaming), and about HW device support. Windows has better offerings everywhere.

That isn't opinion. It's fact.

Gaming is an easy comparison also because each game is a unique experience. If I can have a video editor that does EVERYTHING I use Premiere for, then I don't need Premiere, there's a complete substitute. That doesn't work for games. Each one is going to have its own gameplay, visuals, music, story, etc. You may find a similar game you also like, but if you can't run a game you want, you're still missing out on that game.

 

[Frobozz]

Gaming is an easy comparison also because each game is a unique experience. If I can have a video editor that does EVERYTHING I use Premiere for, then I don't need Premiere, there's a complete substitute. That doesn't work for games. Each one is going to have its own gameplay, visuals, music, story, etc. You may find a similar game you also like, but if you can't run a game you want, you're still missing out on that game.

Mario Sunshine doesn't run on my personal computer. Xcom 2 doesn't run on my Gamecube.

 

[ManofGod]

Why would I think about Windows 10 alternatives? Everything I have works really well on it and I also have 5 games from the Store so there would be no reason I want to lose access to them. My Garmin works well with it, all my games do as well except one or two old ones. I do not have to hunt down any drivers for my hardware to just work out of the box either. Linux as a host desktop OS is not an alternative for me and besides, there is no reason to switch around anymore.

Now, back in the day, OS/2 Warp was fantastic, I loved my Amiga and Windows 95 and 98 were good for everything, including gaming. Switching today is a waste of time.

 

[SmokeRngs]

I know it gets old, but I can't emphasize enough how much the gaming situation on Linux has improved in the past year or so. I go weeks without touching Windows now.

Most of my gaming anymore is MMOs and I'll swap around between a few different ones. These games are some of the worst to get running on Linux under Wine which a big part of that is the constant changes and updates to the games. I know it's likely much easier than it used to be to get them working under Wine but it's still more trouble than I want to mess with, especially when some sort of update actually breaks the game under Wine until a change is made to get it working again. It also doesn't help that I'm running very old hardware and do not have the cash to upgrade or I would have done so long ago so the performance hit of running an MMO through Wine isn't something I can afford.

I like Linux and it's the only thing I run on my server and have for years but at the moment it isn't a suitable replacement for Windows for the specific games I play.

 

[SmokeRngs]

I don't disagree with the first sentence here. But as for Steam and Linux, Windows games are being added at a 5 to 1 rate and almost a year into no SteamVR support. In absolute terms on Steam the gap between Linux and Windows in game titles is GREATER than when there ZERO games for Linux on Steam. So the day that you're talking about my come, but I guessing it won't come like that.



Did I say otherwise? The issue I'm having here along with others that get my point is that Linux simply doesn't have the level of hardware and software support as Windows and yes, that's why I and many in a place like this use Windows. But I don't think the PC market that could just be has happy with a phone is really what the gunho pro-desktop Linux folks are aiming for.




No, but this is a CRITICAL part of the PC market because it's one area that pushes things along. People who just need a web browser and basic content creation tools aren't pushing boundaries.



And here I thought the great thing about Linux was choice. Apparently not.



Ok. So except for gaming you wouldn't bother with Windows. Common sentiment with a lot of pro-desktop Linux folks. Then just play games available on Linux like other pro-desktop Linux folks do.

And you completely ignored what I said and the points made. You keep going back to "Windows does everything the best" which not only isn't true, it's not even totally relevant. The ONLY reason Windows has as much support as it does is because of entrenchment. It's been basically the only OS pushed to people for a couple of decades and for damn good reason for a large chunk of that time. However, if most people can actually get by without Windows, what happens when people do decide to do so? All it takes is a small start and that start is possible now. The only thing that needs to happen to bust the effective Windows monopoly is a start of people migrating away from it. That's literally all that needs to be done in order for more resources to be devoted to other OSes. If anything, this is already happening with so many people using phones and other devices as primary devices. Only a very tiny percentage of these devices run any sort of MS OS. The shift has already started. How this ends up playing out is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be in MS's favor in the long run.

The closest thing to an edge case that you've called out that has any real impact is gaming. There is nowhere near the support for Linux for gaming. However, the support has grown a lot. You simply can't deny that. Unless that support totally dries up you could be seeing a change. Look at the possible abandonment of DirectX or at least shift away from DirectX. I'd personally love to see it. I hate how limited MS makes DirectX and I abhor the shit MS pulled back in the day with regards to DirectX vs OpenGL. Simply put, if Vulcan does end up taking off you may very well see a shift towards more gaming support for Linux due to the easier portability between OSes due to that lack of the DirectX ball and chain.

MS has used the entrenchment of Windows to do its damnedest to shackle whatever it could to Windows and the last two iterations of Windows have shown that MS will use its monopoly to the detriment of the consumer. And it's doing it at a time when MS should be doing everything it can to keep as many people on desktop and Windows.

You should also stop trying to use "but the games I do play on Windows keeps me shackled to Windows" as a vindication for your points. Instead you should be worried about that with regards to your love for MS and Windows. All it takes is for me to stop playing games to switch to Windows. I'm not the only person like that. With how much you love Windows and MS your time would be better put to use petitioning MS to stop being dumbasses and start listening to the consumers rather than celebrating how people are shackled to Windows and MS and in effect rubbing their nose in it. You are your own worst enemy with regards to your blind praise of MS and disdain for practically everything non-MS and those who don't follow the MS line. I personally find your attitude and holier than thou arguments distasteful which automatically makes me want to ignore anything you say and I'm obviously not the only one.

 

[Snowdog]

And you completely ignored what I said and the points made. You keep going back to "Windows does everything the best" which not only isn't true, it's not even totally relevant. The ONLY reason Windows has as much support as it does is because of entrenchment. It's been basically the only OS pushed to people for a couple of decades and for damn good reason for a large chunk of that time. However, if most people can actually get by without Windows, what happens when people do decide to do so? All it takes is a small start and that start is possible now. The only thing that needs to happen to bust the effective Windows monopoly is a start of people migrating away from it. That's literally all that needs to be done in order for more resources to be devoted to other OSes. If anything, this is already happening with so many people using phones and other devices as primary devices. Only a very tiny percentage of these devices run any sort of MS OS. The shift has already started. How this ends up playing out is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be in MS's favor in the long run.

The closest thing to an edge case that you've called out that has any real impact is gaming.

What you derisively calls "entrenchment" is simply a thriving ecosystem. They are always self reinforcing. Stronger ecosystem = more consumers buying in. More consumers buying in, brings more, and higher quality products to the ecosystem, which strengthens the ecosystem, and the positive feedback loop is complete. It is also that positive feedback loop that does indeed give Windows the best of everything, outside of some sliver edge cases (like Linux being better for developing Linux ).

It is really is hilarious after all this time, that people keep predicting the year of the Linux Desktop as right around the corner. It's long since past being a joke.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/never-year-linux-desktop/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/year-of-broken-desktop-linux-software/

 

[jtm55]

Hi All

You guys are out of control

 

[tetris42]

Mario Sunshine doesn't run on my personal computer. Xcom 2 doesn't run on my Gamecube.

Actually it does, with an emulator. And yeah, consoles aren't personal computers, they're locked down by large companies that you don't have control over. Besides, I don't know what you're trying to prove. We're talking about operating systems with the same hardware. Your point only makes sense if you're hinting that Linux has a wealth of games that can't run on Windows.

 

[ChadD]

Here's when you know things are changing. Linux gets support for niche things like VR and then Windows users wait a year and dismiss VR because of "people looking silly waving their hands in the air". Indeed as the PC market shrinks towards higher end activities and grandma uses a phone or tablet for web browsing, doing the stuff that can't be done or done easily on mobile is what will drive PCs.

I hope MS isn't thinking like you and banking on that. lmao

"We'll be fine... there will always be things people can't do on their mobile gear."

If you told someone 10 years ago they would be on their phones 3-4 hours out of the day not talking to anyone they would have laughed at you.

With things like chromecast getting better with every iteration... you know the entire thing is just one or two innovative ideas away from killing the idea of the PC completely. MS has been scrambling trying to get into the mobile market for awhile now for a reason. I don't think there completely stupid. Android is simply going to take over more and more day to day computing tasks as time goes by.

The first step is will I'm sure be Google going after their higher end 2 in 1 sales at some point in the not so distant future (this or next year).

The latest ARM chips + Android already does a pretty darn good job of the things people use most of the day. I am honestly shocked we haven't seen more Phone Dock ideas, where you sit down with your Bluetooth keyboard/mouse and chromecast the screen. Really for most people throw their phone screen up on a 1080p TV and give them a wireless keyboard and I don't really understand why they would need a desktop anymore. I mean you can do that right now... I am just saying at some point one of the big mobile guys be it Apple or Google is going to push that idea and I think the hardware and software are pretty much there to make most people happy to live with out a desktop.