Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[ChadD]

If the Linux community doesn't care about these things that's fine. Desktop Linux gaming is crap at this point anyway and it's not going anywhere if this is how Linux folks overall think. You've mention time and time again about how much Windows costs. I think your numbers are insane, but still I get the point. You the one that gets offended when I mention what I've spent on stuff, the most insignificant of if on the cost of Windows. You say that many folks have no problem forfeiting SOME of their game and other software. What I think you're really saying is drop everything and redo everything under Linux. And if Linux doesn't support it, so what, it was nothing more than "idiots waving their hands in the air". McDonalds. Mic drop.

And all of that arrogance didn't do anything for anyone who might have been interested in the topic of this thread, "Alternatives to Windows 10". People who were actually interested in alternatives to Windows 10 that were Linux zealots.

Well this article wasn't about gaming.

Outside of gaming there is very few honest advantages to running windows. You can argue the importance of Photoshop... their name will live on forever even if their software doesn't. As the majority of those "shopped" photos in magazines and the like these days are actually shopped Affinity. Vast numbers of the pro editing market dumped Adobes products. Their move to the cloud pissed off a lot of people... couple that with the fact that their main competition is selling a superior product for 50 bucks and doesn't require the use of cloud services and it spells bad news for Adobe shareholders.
http://www.alphr.com/news/390835/dark-clouds-for-adobe-as-profits-slide-by-46

For every "major" windows software that people point to as can't run Linux cause. There are multiple Linux options... that all get better and better. Yes PROs are leaving windows for Linux and OSX. Sure in most cases MS can still claim to be used by the majority. Still the simple fact is every year the windows numbers go down and the OSx and Linux numbers go up.

So getting back on topic... and away from the small in comparison to everything else pc gamer market that is out there. OSX is extremely attractive right now and Apple has been picking up a Large number of very important sectors the last year in Professional Photo / Video / Page layout, they haven't see as much high end artistic work being down on the platform since the 90s when they dominated those markets. Linux continues to pick up numbers every year as well. No the numbers aren't doubling month over month or anything crazy. Still they go up every year at the expense of MS customers.

So clearly for many people the 2 major alternatives to Windows are very attractive right now.

 

[Frobozz]

Pretty much. It's just this nonsense about Linux gaming growing. Ok yeah, sure it's growing. In relation to Windows it's getting wasted. The pro-Linux folks around here don't get a shit about gaming so it's kind of hard to imagine that Linux would do well compared to folks that give lots of shits about gaming.

I give shits because I want the position to keep growing. The way to do that is by showing support by buying from the porting houses and being counted running on the platform. The needle isn't going to move if I'm on Windows and saying I want 200% more titles on Linux so I can switch.

Just because something isn't the most popular, doesn't mean it sucks, or is unworthy of support.

 

[ChadD]

Pretty much. It's just this nonsense about Linux gaming growing. Ok yeah, sure it's growing. In relation to Windows it's getting wasted. The pro-Linux folks around here don't get a shit about gaming so it's kind of hard to imagine that Linux would do well compared to folks that give lots of shits about gaming.

Accept windows gaming % isn't growing. OSx is likely the only OS that could claim year to year gaming growth in terms of numbers of titles Sold. (just having tons of shovelware as you put it earlier released for your platform doesn't count). Sales numbers do... and sales numbers say that Linux gamers are the most loyal buying every half decent new release that comes along. Windows still ships the most units obviously... and OSX is the only platform that is shipping more units year over year for 5+ years now.

 

[heatlesssun]

That isn't it at all.

Yes VR is the future.

NO I will never ever ever ever buy into a closed only system with 3+ competing formats. Because I refuse to burn money.

LOL! That's a great attitude to have. But a single $800 hardware purchase along with $300 in games doesn't come close to burning money relative to what I've spent on PC gaming for 25 years. Not for many other around here.

I hope the system you bought into wins out heatle or you will have a very expensive collectors item.

LOL! Just in this one year, the Vive was only 10% of what I spent on PC related hardware. That's not to brag, $800 is a lot of money to me for sure, but I spent twice that on the CPU in my sig rig.

Most people (including windows) users refuse to buy into VR until the manufactures of VR gear agree on a universal standard. I'm not buying the HD-DVD player of VR at $500+... neither are the majority of windows users.

Whatever that standard is, Windows compatibility is all but assured somewhere in there.

For the record there 100% is VR for Linux... just not from either of the two big (blu ray HD DvD style) formats batting for early adopter money right now.

Ok, so please, whoever is on Linux using VR, what's the experience?

 

[BulletDust]

Pretty much. It's just this nonsense about Linux gaming growing. Ok yeah, sure it's growing. In relation to Windows it's getting wasted. The pro-Linux folks around here don't get a shit about gaming so it's kind of hard to imagine that Linux would do well compared to folks that give lots of shits about gaming.

Dear god you are so full of crap! Seriously, you have one twisted outlook on things!

 

[BulletDust]

Ok, so please, whoever is on Linux using VR, what's the experience?

Lol!

That's all you hear! VR, AAA, Windows growth! It's downright hilarious!

 

[heatlesssun]

I give shits because I want the position to keep growing. The way to do that is by showing support by buying from the porting houses and being counted running on the platform. The needle isn't going to move if I'm on Windows and saying I want 200% more titles on Linux so I can switch.

Just because something isn't the most popular, doesn't mean it sucks, or is unworthy of support.

By all means, do what you think is best for you and makes you happy, I have nothing against that. What I have a problem with are people saying (and you've not done this) "Many are happy forfeiting" stuff. That's flat out bullshit. You like what you like, I like what I like, others like something else. But I'm not buying how wonderful Linux gaming is when it clearly does suck, when it's a year behind in PCVR, when AAA titles, as few as they are come months later. Just because something IS poplar doesn't mean it sucks either.

 

[BulletDust]

I give shits because I want the position to keep growing. The way to do that is by showing support by buying from the porting houses and being counted running on the platform. The needle isn't going to move if I'm on Windows and saying I want 200% more titles on Linux so I can switch.

Just because something isn't the most popular, doesn't mean it sucks, or is unworthy of support.

I've attempted to make this point in the past! He just doesn't get it.

 

[BulletDust]

By all means, do what you think is best for you and makes you happy, I have nothing against that. What I have a problem with are people saying (and you've not done this) "Many are happy forfeiting" stuff. That's flat out bullshit. You like what you like, I like what I like, others like something else. But I'm not buying how wonderful Linux gaming is when it clearly does suck, when it's a year behind in PCVR, when AAA titles, as few as they are come months later. Just because something IS poplar doesn't mean it sucks either.

Pigs arse it's flat out bullshit!

Your outlook on things is flat out bullshit!

Never before, on any forum (bulletin boards before forums) have I heard such crap!

 

[BulletDust]

Nope, not what I said and I said it in a very specific way because I knew you'd do this.

You speak about an OS that you are proud to announce flat out that you won't use (with the exception of the servers at work, which won't even run a GUI) and you form judgement! The truth is that you have absolutely no idea just what the hell you are talking about, yet you will swear black and blue that your twisted perspective is gospel!

You are a joke.

If I was a sysop at your place of work I wouldn't let you anywhere near the real (Linux) servers!

 

[heatlesssun]

and OSX is the only platform that is shipping more units year over year for 5+ years now.

I don't think this is true. And in any case the variance isn't large in absolute numbers. And we're talking about systems that overwhelming come with mobile GPUs.

 

[heatlesssun]

I've attempted to make this point in the past! He just doesn't get it.

Coming from the guy saying that VR is just about "idiots waving hands in the air", you have a double standard about popularity.

 

[BulletDust]

Coming from the guy saying that VR is just about "idiots waving hands in the air", you have a double standard about popularity.

Can anyone here claim that when they play VR they don't wave their arms around?

Anyone?

[Edit] With the exception of Kyle and Heatlesssun, does anyone currently in this thread actually use VR?

 

[heatlesssun]

You speak about an OS that you are proud to announce flat out that you won't use (with the exception of the servers at work, which won't even run a GUI) and you form judgement!

Refuse to use, I never said such nonsense. When's the last time you installed Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 3? I did it about 18 months ago, nothing but problems. And I said that wasn't an problem with Linux per se, that would require Intel and Microsoft support. Again total tone deafness.

 

[BulletDust]

Refuse to use, I never said such nonsense. When's the last time you installed Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 3? I did it about 18 months ago, nothing but problems. And I said that wasn't an problem with Linux per se, that would require Intel and Microsoft support. Again total tone deafness.

Of course you had problems! You were trying to install Linux on the most propitiatory of Microsoft products! I'm sure the issue had little to do with Intel support, most likely Microsoft support was the major factor at play here.

I have as many Linux machines as I have Windows machines, and they all run perfectly. Don't for a second sit there and try to claim that I'm talking bullshit when you can't even get Linux working on one machine!

Every time I encouraged you to support gaming under Linux you flat out refused, go on, tell me I'm talking shit and I'll dig up the comments.

 

[heatlesssun]

Can anyone here claim that when they play VR they don't wave their arms around?

Anyone?

You left out the word "idiots" that you used earlier. Nice try.

[Edit] With the exception of Kyle and Heatlesssun, does anyone in this thread actually use VR?

Funny thing is I know two forum members by name that will argue with me to the end of time about Windows 10 but love VR. One them hates me so much that he wouldn't put me on ignore but complain I responded to his posts. So I don't. No biggie. That's just how this stuff works. Tons of different views about whatever and then well gee, we agree on something.

 

[BulletDust]

You left out the word "idiots" that you used earlier. Nice try.



Funny thing is I know two forum members by name that will argue with me to the end of time about Windows 10 but love VR. One them hates me so much that he wouldn't put me on ignore but complain I responded to his posts. So I don't. No biggie. That's just how this stuff works. Tons of different views about whatever and then well gee, we agree on something.

When you wave your arms around with something stuck to your face there is no denying that to everyone around you, you look like an idiot. If you take offence at that comment that is not my intention, however, if you do I don't care.

I'm becoming more and more anti VR the more you waffle on about it!

 

[heatlesssun]

Of course you had problems! You were trying to install Linux on the most propitiatory of Microsoft products! I'm sure the issue had little to do with Intel support, most likely Microsoft support was the major factor at play here.

Actually it has a lot to do with Intel support if you followed the issues with Skylake at launch. But hell, I'd buy any x86 device that someone around here said was a good 2 in 1 on Linux. Actually one person did the other day, a Dell device. I researched that a bit and could confirm it. Again, not something Linux supporters give a shit about generally.

I have as many Linux machines as I have Windows machines, and they all run perfectly. Don't for a second sit there and try to claim that I'm talking bullshit when you can't even get Linux working on one machine!

I've never claimed anything about how well you're Linux devices run. You clearly don't use them like I do Windows devices. You for instance aren't waving your hands in the air like an idiot in front of any of Linux devices?

 

[BulletDust]

Actually it has a lot to do with Intel support if you followed the issues with Skylake at launch. But hell, I'd buy any x86 device that someone around here said was a good 2 in 1 on Linux. Actually one person did the other day, a Dell device. I researched that a bit and could confirm it. Again, not something Linux supporters give a shit about generally.

Yes, very early on Skylake support had issues under the Linux kernel. It was very well documented and if you still chose to install Linux on a Skylake device, or better yet didn't research current issues under Linux before installing it, than what did you expect? I've seen Windows flat out refuse to support optical drives in laptops! Big deal!

And since when is everything you deem to be important the benchmark for what everyone should deem important? Yes, as a Linux user I have very little interest in portable devices fullstop. But that's my opinion, it's got nothing to do with you.

 

[BulletDust]

I've never claimed anything about how well you're Linux devices run. You clearly don't use them like I do Windows devices. You for instance aren't waving your hands in the air like an idiot in front of any of Linux devices?

I used to use my Windows PC flat out thank you, quite often I played games at 4k and it was great, I also had a dedicated Linux PC. Then Windows 10 was released.

I didn't like the way MS was headed, I switched fully to Linux and I never looked back.

And no, I don't wave my hands in the air in front of my Linux PC and I don't waffle on about PC gaming like a child.

 

[heatlesssun]

When you wave your arms around with something stuck to your face there is no denying that to everyone around you, you look like an idiot. If you take offence at that comment that is not my intention, however, if you do I don't care.

I'm becoming more and more anti VR the more you waffle on about it!

Why would I be offended by something you clearly know little of?

 

[BulletDust]

Why would I be offended by something you clearly know little of?

HA!

I've already told you I tried it, don't believe me? I don't care.

Think whatever twisted little thought pops into your meagre cerebrum Heatlesssun, I couldn't give a stuff what you think and I'd recommend that others take your insanely biased postings with a grain of salt also.

You'll use Linux if it gains 100% gaming support, but you refuse to actually run Linux and it's associated ports in order to help the platform grow?! Gawd damn.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yes, very early on Skylake support had issues under the Linux kernel. It was very well documented and if you still chose to install Linux on a Skylake device, or better yet didn't research current issues under Linux before installing it, than what did you expect? I've seen Windows flat out refuse to support optical drives in laptops! Big deal!

Huh? I was clearly aware of Skylake issues with Windows and Linux. Again, to this day, all I said was is there something under Linux that can do what Windows 10 does on a 2 in 1 device? In this thread it's ranged from "No one cares." to "It'll work perfectly."

And since when is everything you deem to be important the benchmark for what everyone should deem important?

You deem Linux gaming adequate and think VR is all about "idiots waving their hands around." I get it, you're trolling. Badly.

 

[heatlesssun]

HA!

I've already told you I tried it, don't believe me? I don't care.

I never debated that you tried VR. But you're never USED VR for a sustained period of time.

You'll use Linux if it gains 100% gaming support, but you refuse to actually run Linux and it's associated ports in order to help the platform grow?! Gawd damn.

I'm not going to use desktop Linux as a host with hardware that doesn't support it. List out the specs of any hardware that you use, what you think the advantages of that setup is over Windows and if it makes sense for me I'll use desktop Linux natively. Not a big deal. You've been arguing that many people are happy to forfeit some games to use Linux. I'm telling you, believe it or not, it goes well beyond that for me. But you know it all because you spent 10 minutes with VR and never heard of OneNote.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

You deem Linux gaming adequate...

Linux on the desktop certainly has reached the point that it can stand on its own as a gaming platform. All of my favorite games are Linux native. You can downplay it all you want, but with 25% of the Steam store and 1/3 of my Steam library running on Linux I almost never feel the need to boot Windows anymore. Even better, most of the other things I want to play run fine under Wine.

It's easier than ever to switch to Linux and the situation has improved drastically in the past year or so from how it used to be. You said it's been ~18 months since you last tried Ubuntu on your surface. Load up Mint on there and see how it goes. Anyone who's dabbled with Linux in the past really needs to load up their favorite distro again and see how much things have improved. I've was a Windows fan forever and I switched.

There's room for improvement and you wont have '100%' of your Windows library, but Windows 10 is unacceptable and Windows 7 wont be supported forever.

 

[BulletDust]

I never debated that you tried VR. But you're never USED VR for a sustained period of time.



I'm not going to use desktop Linux as a host with hardware that doesn't support it. List out the specs of any hardware that you use, what you think the advantages of that setup is over Windows and if it makes sense for me I'll use desktop Linux natively. Not a big deal. You've been arguing that many people are happy to forfeit some games to use Linux. I'm telling you, believe it or not, it goes well beyond that for me. But you know it all because you spent 10 minutes with VR and never heard of OneNote.

All I hear now is baseless ranting based around one individuals insatiable desire to play games on his computer.

...It's gone beyond stupid now.

 

[heatlesssun]

Linux on the desktop certainly has reached the point that it can stand on its own as a gaming platform. All of my favorite games are Linux native. You can downplay it all you want, but with 25% of the Steam store and 1/3 of my Steam library running on Linux I almost never feel the need to boot Windows anymore. Even better, most of the other things I want to play run fine under Wine.

So Linux has more games than ever on Steam. And Windows has five times as many as that, more than ever on Steam. It's not a matter of me downplaying anything.

It's easier than ever to switch to Linux and the situation has improved drastically in the past year or so from how it used to be. You said it's been ~18 months since you last tried Ubuntu on your surface. Load up Mint on there and see how it goes.

I hear people like you saying this and then I hear "Load it up and see how it goes." That's really no different than ever.

Anyone who's dabbled with Linux in the past really needs to load up their favorite distro again and see how much things have improved. I've was a Windows fan forever and I switched.

It has nothing to do with being a Windows fan. That's the thing Linux proponents have NEVER understood. Ok, Windows is evil. Got that. Now tell me how everything I do can be done elsewhere. I don't need speeches about "idiots waving hands". I don't need speeches about how you never heard of OneNote and never heard of anyone who does. Just tell me exactly how Linux makes everything better while forfeiting things that work well for me or anyone you're trying to convert. I've said over and over and over that I don't care about Windows. But when I mention something that doesn't have Linux support, and it's been like this for two decades now, I'm a Windows lover. It's just so much bullshit. I simply want to do the things I want to do. I research Linux until the end of time, not Linux won't support that because of this or that or... Windows loving Microsoft paid shill.

There's room for improvement and you wont have '100%' of your Windows library, but Windows 10 is unacceptable and Windows 7 wont be supported forever.

Ok, so your choice is the best for everyone. No better than Microsoft.

 

[heatlesssun]

All I hear now is baseless ranting based around one individuals insatiable desire to play games on his computer.

...It's gone beyond stupid now.

LOL! You're saying this on a site from a guy that makes a living from people buying stuff to play games on PCs. Much of my decision to by a VR came from this site. Clearly you don't read the content on [H]ardOCP.

 

[BulletDust]

LOL! You're saying this on a site from a guy that makes a living from people buying stuff to play games on PCs. Much of my decision to by a VR came from this site. Clearly you don't read the content on [H]ardOCP.

A PC enthusiast, hardware, overclocking site - Hardly, specifically, a gaming site.

Gaming is just one of many things you can do with a PC. However, quite obviously, you seem to believe it's the only thing you can do with a PC.

I remember when overclocking was about getting more for less, now it seems it's about e-peen and according to Heatlesssun - Games and only games. [yawn].

We all know you idolise Kyle.

 

[ChadD]

Refuse to use, I never said such nonsense. When's the last time you installed Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 3? I did it about 18 months ago, nothing but problems. And I said that wasn't an problem with Linux per se, that would require Intel and Microsoft support. Again total tone deafness.

Dude you bought MICROSOFT hardware and expected it to have good linux support.

No Linux Developer or code contributing user is going out of their way to purchase MS hardware... It would be like China ordering all their military hardware from the US gov, or the US Gov contracting their next war plane to a Russian firm.

I am only exaggerating a little bit there. I mean do you really expect MS as a hardware vendor is going to contribute code to the kernel to support running Linux on their hardware. No one is shocked you had issues doing that. A better analogy would be expecting Apple to provide First party Windows drivers for the devices in their mac books.

Its your choice of hardware that is the issue not Linux. As I have said Linux running on 2 in 1s and touch screen laptops is smooth as silk these days... unless your buying the hardware produced by the closed source OS guys. That seems like it should be pretty logical. MS isn't going to go out of there way to make it smooth removing windows from the hardware they sell to showcase their OS platform.

 

[ChadD]

LOL! You're saying this on a site from a guy that makes a living from people buying stuff to play games on PCs. Much of my decision to by a VR came from this site. Clearly you don't read the content on [H]ardOCP.

No one said we aren't interesting in Reading Kyles take on VR.

Not that I would be trying to drag him into our silly argument. I am sure he would agree the masses aren't going to be jumping on VR until they settle on a format. I'm glad you have thousands to spend on computer hardware every year. Most of us have a budget and we stick to it. If I have to decide between a new GPU CPU or complete mobo this year and spending a 1000 bucks on a VR headset that I can see 3-4 games that interest me in total... then I have to KNOW that that purchase isn't going to be a WASTE of my money in a year.

If the format I go with ends up being cut out of 90% of the new VR games next year cause I choose wrong... or almost as bad a second generation set hits that has 2x the resolution or is smoother and less likely to make me sick. Well yes I would feel like an idiot for spending money I could have spent on a new or second GPU... or frankly at the cost of it currently a new board CPU and ram combo.

Its not that most everyone (Linux Windows Mac or BeOS lovers) aren't interesting in VR. (which makes reading Kyles articles fun)... its that we aren't ready to buy in until the companies producing the hardware pull their heads from there backsides and assure potential customers that the tech is there and the format isn't an issue.

Same things happens with every consumer format war. Think back to Blu and HDDVD... Blu Ray discs didn't really kick sales into gear and start pushing DVDs out of the market until HDDVD ended.

Until that happens yes Linux support isn't all that important. Sure it would be nice, but as you say if your going to spend the money right now this early into VR... just run windwows. Hey don't hold that against you. Just don't talk like your use case is common. Its not... not yet anyway. Likely by the time it is if ever, Linux support will be good to go if people really don't wanna dual boot for VR.

Also just FYI Linux VR really is a thing... no Linux doesn't have a polished store type product. But hey Windows VR is messy right now as well considering all the format issues ect. http://www.vronlinux.com/ At least if you end up having the wrong format in a year heatle some kindly Linux people will likely hack it up to run anyway. lol

 

[Snowdog]

Well this article wasn't about gaming.

Outside of gaming there is very few honest advantages to running windows..

Sure there are, you even highlight one in your very next post.

Its your choice of hardware that is the issue not Linux. As I have said Linux running on 2 in 1s and touch screen laptops is smooth as silk these days... unless your buying the hardware produced by the closed source OS guys. That seems like it should be pretty logical. MS isn't going to go out of there way to make it smooth removing windows from the hardware they sell to showcase their OS platform.

Just like you limit your choice of games, you limit your choice of HW. If I had $5 for every time I have have read: "don't buy an AMD card to run Linux(drivers)", I could by a nice new video card.

I posted earlier about other things that were an issue:
https://hardforum.com/threads/thinking-about-windows-10-alternatives.1923086/page-6#post-1042780172

I'll turn your claim around, unless you are looking to work in Linux, you would be poorly served by running a home Linux Desktop, unless you don't need much more than a Web browser, which is just about the only category with comparable desktop support.

For myself. Multimedia is lacking compared to WMC/VideoRedo for recording/editing TV. Device support is lacking for my Garmin handheld GPS(mapsource), and my Garmin Running watch. And that is likely the tip of the iceberg, that I would encounter if I actually made a serious attempt to switch.

Running Desktop Linux will limit your HW and SW choices, and in the vast majority of categories for SW. Which is why motivations to run it at home, are often based on impractical reasons (Microsoft hatred), and remind me of the old saying:"Cutting of your nose to spite your face".

 

[ChadD]

You could use the same reduced peripheral choice arguing that Windows is > then OSX.

I'm sorry but most of what you are saying just isn't true.

AMD cards do work just fine in Linux. In fact the newest Kernel branch is bringing even more boosts to AMD support. Media support in Linux is fantastic... there is a reason why so many people use Linux building their Home Media machines. If your shining example of Windows Multi media support is WMC most people aren't really impressed.

As for your example of Garmin handhelds well again your just not correct. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GarminGPSMap76CSx http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/USB_Garmin_on_GNU/Linux Just a couple pages... point is if you have a specific unit do a quick search and you will find it works just fine. I won't deny Linux still asks a bit more of the average user... as in actually understanding at least the basics of how their system works. That isn't a big deal imo... as we have been talking about viable Windows Alternatives... and not asking "when is Linux going to be perfect for my grandmother who insists on buying tons of tech gadgets". I half joke... yes some things like the Garmin aren't as plug and play on Linux can't and wouldn't deny it... the more people that use Linux though the more those companies provide support... just as with OSX. Support of OSX is far better today that it was last year or the year before... because there are more users which leads to more official support. (instead of workarounds and hacks which OSX still has and used to have far more off to get lots of things to work).

 

[Snowdog]

You could use the same reduced peripheral choice arguing that Windows is > then OSX.

I'm sorry but most of what you are saying just isn't true.

AMD cards do work just fine in Linux. In fact the newest Kernel branch is bringing even more boosts to AMD support. Media support in Linux is fantastic... there is a reason why so many people use Linux building their Home Media machines. If your shining example of Windows Multi media support is WMC most people aren't really impressed.

As for your example of Garmin handhelds well again your just not correct. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GarminGPSMap76CSx http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/USB_Garmin_on_GNU/Linux Just a couple pages... point is if you have a specific unit do a quick search and you will find it works just fine. I won't deny Linux still asks a bit more of the average user... as in actually understanding at least the basics of how their system works. That isn't a big deal imo... as we have been talking about viable Windows Alternatives... and not asking "when is Linux going to be perfect for my grandmother who insists on buying tons of tech gadgets". I half joke... yes some things like the Garmin aren't as plug and play on Linux can't and wouldn't deny it... the more people that use Linux though the more those companies provide support... just as with OSX. Support of OSX is far better today that it was last year or the year before... because there are more users which leads to more official support. (instead of workarounds and hacks which OSX still has and used to have far more off to get lots of things to work).

Of course it's true, each time you link pages of hacks and workarounds you must do to carry out the simplest operation you make my case. Note that all that grief above to access a Garmin GPS was just to get basic data on/off it.

But Garmin has a proprietary Map set(the Mapsource I specifically mentioned) for my GPS, that is a Windows program, to load Maps onto the GPS itself. My watch is a different story, it uses a custom App for Windows/Mac to sync watch data with Garmins website. Now there are probably some hacks to pull the raw data off the watch, but can you get into the Garmin web client. All I do under Windows is put it in the USB charging cradle and it auto-syncs everything.

As far as Multimedia. Sure you can make a cheap Linux Media player. But I was quite specific. I use WMC to RECORD. Nothing really touches WMC for TV recording. I tried one of the Linux "solutions" and it was a horror show. Similar nothing I found is anywhere near as good for editing out commercials as VideoRedo.

Linux remains a hobby OS on the desktop. You have to want to do thing the hard way, deal with workarounds and hacks to do things that Just Work in Windows.

 

[jtm55]

Hi All

All of this back in forth is pointless. One thing I've learned is that once a person has their mind made up about a thing, no matter what you put before them they're not going to change their opinion/mind. Why bother. Accept this, folk have their individual preferences. Respect that, and move on.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

You have to want to do thing the hard way, deal with workarounds and hacks to do things that Just Work in Windows.

You sound an awful lot like Heatlessun

All the hardware in my 6 PC's 'just works' on Linux, even my Creative sound cards and a couple different RAID controllers. I'm even using AMD GPUs for gaming.

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who could actually get anything done on Windows 8\10 without a Start menu hack/workaround installed. Can't block updates or install your own drivers without third party workarounds, either.

 

[BulletDust]

“You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” - Doctor Who, Face Of Evil, January 1977.

As stated earlier, this threads gone beyond stupid now....

 

[ChadD]

You sound an awful lot like Heatlessun

All the hardware in my 6 PC's 'just works' on Linux, even my Creative sound cards and a couple different RAID controllers. I'm even using AMD GPUs for gaming.

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who could actually get anything done on Windows 8\10 without a Start menu hack/workaround installed. Can't block updates or install your own drivers without third party workarounds, either.

Pretty much sums it up. Both OSs have their issues and their workarounds and their "best practice setups" that people have found themselves to make them work the way they want.

Most of the hardcore windows pushers I run into in real life. (often employees of my clients... if I switch an office with more then a couple people there is always one guy that feels the need to tell me how fantastic windows is) In almost every case it boils down to people like what they are familiar with. If you have been using windows since the days when it was just a DE running on top of MSDos... you know all your tricks. You know where to find regedit you know how to stop a process or tell windows not to default load a service. You understand if you have older hardware your going to have to load a specific driver for X or Y when you install ect ect. You have learned the tricks and even if MS changes the rules every few years things are still pretty familiar to you. In fairness the same thing happens to long time Linux users and its just as easy for us to assume the basics are just that basics. Windows and even OSX can be just as much a nightmare OS for the computer clueless as Linux can... and those types of users can learn to use both. I would say if a users level of computer competence is zero... give them a new system and a 10 min walk though from a Windows or Linux "expert" and both will have the same level of success or "woops I messed it up" moments.

Yes Linux support is pretty darn good... Yes even for things like GPSs and other devices that don't have "official" manufacturer support. Honestly in some cases the community style support ends up being better... for older hardware manufacturers tend to not be supporting as well later in their life cycles in particular. I have run into that a lot with high end audio stuff... where the manufacturer has moved on to newer units and the old units have Win 7 at best drivers (and sometimes not even that). Yet the Linux support is great... and sometimes more feature rich then the old windows OS drivers allowed on those systems. (often high end audio manufacturers use better chips with more features then they enable in their own drivers).

When it comes to Linux... sure its not as user friendly to install from zero that is a given. Windows is a commercial product with clear buy me for "home" or "pro" style formats. (and 99 times out of a 100 people are getting their systems preloaded) Linux has lots of distros and options. No I wouldn't tell grandma or an odd uncle hey go get Linux (with no direction) give it a go and expect them to love it. (of course if I install it for them and give them the 20 min tour... those types of users are good to go in general). When it comes to HardOCP readers I would have to assume, most here are capable of figuring out the basics on their own and finding the proper distro for their systems ect... as long as they come at it as a humble student anyway. Its good practice with everything in life anyway. Its easy to get a bit of a big head about you in anything... happens to many with computer stuff. Ends up with other wise sane and learned people saying things like "I have been a computer guru for 20yrs and I couldn't figure out Linux so it sucks and isn't ready." It's easy to let your ego get in your way.

I have seen plenty of systems in the course of my work... and I have made the mistake of snap judgments about how bad a particular setup was. A few times I have ended up regretting pulling apart or changing out something based on assumptions. Anyway only point I'm trying to make is yes Linux is harder for EVERYONE to use at first even Windows gurus... like everything once you understand things more fully your outlook often changes. Experience with another system may give you a head start and help you understand things quicker... but you are still going to have to work to learn a new system. (and if your not willing to do that... then ya your stuck with Windows friends) lol

 

[Semantics]

People seems to want linux to be for serious work but in reality most professional needs are met only on windows and some on mac.
Excel, CAD work, Adobe suite, broadcast software etc etc etc.

Reason people want Linux to be serious work is because you have access to parts you don't have access to in windows or mac, but to simply put no one really develops business software for Linux. Specialized one off software for bsd, obviously but not wide spread business crud.

For the most part unless your business is computers windows is your os. You don't have much of a choice.

 

[heatlesssun]

Dude you bought MICROSOFT hardware and expected it to have good linux support.

I never said I expected this, I've pointed this out many times.

No Linux Developer or code contributing user is going out of their way to purchase MS hardware... It would be like China ordering all their military hardware from the US gov, or the US Gov contracting their next war plane to a Russian firm.

Not exactly: https://betanews.com/2016/08/07/linux-microsoft-surface-3/. And web searches reveal quite a bit on the subject on running Linux on Surface hardware.

I am only exaggerating a little bit there. I mean do you really expect MS as a hardware vendor is going to contribute code to the kernel to support running Linux on their hardware. No one is shocked you had issues doing that. A better analogy would be expecting Apple to provide First party Windows drivers for the devices in their mac books.

Well there is a lot of PC hardware that doesn't get official support from the OEM.

Its your choice of hardware that is the issue not Linux. As I have said Linux running on 2 in 1s and touch screen laptops is smooth as silk these days... unless your buying the hardware produced by the closed source OS guys. That seems like it should be pretty logical. MS isn't going to go out of there way to make it smooth removing windows from the hardware they sell to showcase their OS platform.

Surface hardware is pretty damned good, that's as every bit a reason to buy it as anything. So sure, if one wasn't to run Linux on a 2 in 1, there are probably better choices to support that. But as far as many 2 in 1s running smooth as silk on a Linux distro, I've done a lot of research on the subject and I'm not seeing the experience being reported as smooth as silk overall. That's not to say that there aren't devices where the experience is solid.