Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[DeathFromBelow]

And if KSP didn't run on Linux, would it be your favorite game? I doubt it. Selection bias and sour grapes at work.

KSP is the best game ever made. I switched to Linux in October, I was posting about KSP here long before then. If it makes you feel any better, my 2nd favorite is the original Thief: The Dark Project. I have no idea if that one runs under Linux, haven't tried it yet.

With that out of the way, cut the crap about sour grapes.

And that's just the chunk that happened to be installed when I took that screenshot. You're talking to somebody who spent way to much time trying to explain privilege escalation to the masses back during the Vista days. I'm a long-time Windows guy and I have a huge collection of games.

When I say 'all my favorite games are on Linux' I'm not shitting you, I literally mean 'all my favorite games are on Linux.' I have enough games on Linux now that I don't have enough free time to play them all. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. No, it's not 100% of the list above, but Linux has reached the point that I didn't mind making the switch even with that huge list of Windows games. If I can do it I expect a lot of people around here can, too.

 

[BulletDust]

It's not a matter of anyone lying, it's a matter of perspective based on needs, wants and what works for individuals. If desktop Linux works for you and others, great. I'm not debating that. But a lot pro-desktop Linux folks, and there's a lot of this in this thread, I believe or overselling the state of desktop Linux today. Has Linux desktop improved over time? Sure. But the software support issues are still there and that situation just hasn't improved, not relative to Windows.

The situation is beyond obvious just looking at Steam, where Windows is getting more games than ever and at a 5 to 1 ratio compared to Linux. While you and others may not care, MANY people are going to care about this kind of this. It's not just something that can be ignored in desktop Linux is ever going to stand as a true alternative to Windows, where you could just replace Windows with Linux and because the desktop Linux is close to Windows, most people making that transition wouldn't miss a beat.

You can't just say Linux is great on the desktop and then say "There's more games on Linux than anyone could play so the state of Linux is fine and there's always Wine." when Windows is getting 5 times more games. Or that some alternative software package is just as good as commercial versions when that's not at all an easy to say without knowing how an individual uses such applications. Or that hardware compatibility in Linux is great and then say "You should have bought some other kind hardware." when that hardware isn't all that Linux friendly.

If the goal is to use Linux full time and whatever compromises one makes are fine to achieve that are acceptable to those people, that's their choice. That's not going to be the choice that will work for everyone. And in gaming I think it's a choice that will work for few that are more interested in playing whatever PC than running desktop Linux.

This whole post is a complete waste of time as anyone considering switching to Linux is well aware of all of this, no one is overselling anything, you just don't use Linux so you're oblivious to the fact it's growing and improving at a rate that's far faster than ever before. Remember when I stated you were misinformed and you're simply posting opinion as fact?

It's been stated time and time again, if you want to play RE7 or play with Adobe products - Feel free to stick to Windows. Point made = Move on from discussion.

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone's panties are in a knot. The article frames the discussion with essentially "You don't like Windows 10. What are you going to do about it?"
I guess nothing?

If one doesn't like Windows 10 or Windows whatever the version and Linux does the job for them, not a soul here is arguing against that. What's being debated are SPECIFIC areas, like gaming, where plenty here feel pro-desktop Linux folks are overselling where Linux is at this time. 1/3rd native compatibility Steam, new games being added to Steam for Windows at 5 to 1 rate (that's what it was last year and continuing into this year) not even counting VR titles with VR titles now being added at a greater rate than Linux games. I'm sorry, how in this progress outside the desktop Linux vacuum? For PC gaming, how would these kinds of facts pursued the typical person interested in PC gaming that Linux is just fine? Sure, it can be fine if one only confines themselves to Linux compatible games or uses hacks like Wine here it works. But the overwhelming majority of folks that are going to spend money for a gaming PC are going to want access to the most titles with the least amount of headache and aren't going to be excited about something like Wine that may or may not work.

 

[BulletDust]

If one doesn't like Windows 10 or Windows whatever the version and Linux does the job for them, not a soul here is arguing against that. What's being debated are SPECIFIC areas, like gaming, where plenty here feel pro-desktop Linux folks are overselling where Linux is at this time. 1/3rd native compatibility Steam, new games being added to Steam for Windows at 5 to 1 rate (that's what it was last year and continuing into this year) not even counting VR titles with VR titles now being added at a greater rate than Linux games. I'm sorry, how in this progress outside the desktop Linux vacuum? For PC gaming, how would these kinds of facts pursued the typical person interested in PC gaming that Linux is just fine? Sure, it can be fine if one only confines themselves to Linux compatible games or uses hacks like Wine here it works. But the overwhelming majority of folks that are going to spend money for a gaming PC are going to want access to the most titles with the least amount of headache and aren't going to be excited about something like Wine that may or may not work.

Out of the top ten games available on Steam based on popularity all but two are available under Linux, it's not the Linux users overstating anything and I'm sure anyone considering switching to Linux will check the situation under Steam out for themselves to see if the switch is worthwhile. The issue is that Windows users are vastly understating the growth of Linux overall in such a short period of time.

Personally, I think you're in a Windows vacuum.

 

[ChadD]

It's not a matter of anyone lying, it's a matter of perspective based on needs, wants and what works for individuals. If desktop Linux works for you and others, great. I'm not debating that. But a lot pro-desktop Linux folks, and there's a lot of this in this thread, I believe or overselling the state of desktop Linux today. Has Linux desktop improved over time? Sure. But the software support issues are still there and that situation just hasn't improved, not relative to Windows.

The situation is beyond obvious just looking at Steam, where Windows is getting more games than ever and at a 5 to 1 ratio compared to Linux. While you and others may not care, MANY people are going to care about this kind of this. It's not just something that can be ignored in desktop Linux is ever going to stand as a true alternative to Windows, where you could just replace Windows with Linux and because the desktop Linux is close to Windows, most people making that transition wouldn't miss a beat.

You can't just say Linux is great on the desktop and then say "There's more games on Linux than anyone could play so the state of Linux is fine and there's always Wine." when Windows is getting 5 times more games. Or that some alternative software package is just as good as commercial versions when that's not at all an easy to say without knowing how an individual uses such applications. Or that hardware compatibility in Linux is great and then say "You should have bought some other kind hardware." when that hardware isn't all that Linux friendly.

If the goal is to use Linux full time and whatever compromises one makes are fine to achieve that are acceptable to those people, that's their choice. That's not going to be the choice that will work for everyone. And in gaming I think it's a choice that will work for few that are more interested in playing whatever PC than running desktop Linux.

First I can't believe this is still going.

Second... you continue to miss the point.

- We are talking about alternatives to windows.
- Games are not the reason for the PCs as a platform

Linux runs well, its more stable, its faster in ways that matter. Hardware support is extremely good and just works (device drivers are a windows thing).
We keep arguing in circles... cause yes the Linux boosters are admitting that MS (who I'm still not convinced even likes the PC as a games platform) has "more" game support. We can argue back and forth the merits of the "AAA" game community till we are blue in the face, it still not really the point.

Linux continues every month to get better. The pace of development for Linux has been snowballing for a long time. Yes it is at a point now where there is no way Microsoft can keep up with the pace of Linux development for ever. I believe the OS and its underlying kernel has already gotten to a point where it is > in almost every way. For a lot of people the area of PC computing that can still make a strong case for Microsoft is games...

MS has come back to a point of loving Windows gaming because they realize its one of the areas they have retained a good lead in. Of course it wasn't intentional if you have been paying attention, its a by product of paying off game studios for years now to support the xbox first and foremost. Anyone paying attention to the gaming sector knows the only reason Windows support has continued as it has is due to MS throwing around $. Most developers prefer building their games with Sonys tools. (which have nothing at all to do with Windows or DX... Sony runs their own fork of OpenGL and FreeBSD) Many "AAA" games are built with Sonys systems and converted (ported) to DirectX / Windows from there.

As for Linux hardware compatibility that you claim is terrible.... stop making BS claims about Linux hardware support. Instead list for me ONE commercial PC system on the market right now shipping with windows that won't run Linux. Go ahead we are waiting. (don't list your silly 2 in 1s that require work arounds because the manufacturers lock them down... all of those could run Android / chrome from the factory).

 

[heatlesssun]

- We are talking about alternatives to windows.
- Games are not the reason for the PCs as a platform

Actually the thread title is "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives". And in talking about alternatives comparisons off strengths and weaknesses are how one would generally analyze such alternatives. Games are a huge deal in the PC market considering just how much money and mindshare in consumes in the PC space. Certainly not to all or even most Windows users but certainly a top concern in a forum like this.

Linux runs well, its more stable, its faster in ways that matter. Hardware support is extremely good and just works (device drivers are a windows thing).

This is what I and others mean by overselling it.

Hardware support is extremely good and just works (device drivers are a windows thing).
As for Linux hardware compatibility that you claim is terrible.... stop making BS claims about Linux hardware support. Instead list for me ONE commercial PC system on the market right now shipping with windows that won't run Linux. Go ahead we are waiting. (don't list your silly 2 in 1s that require work arounds because the manufacturers lock them down... all of those could run Android / chrome from the factory).

I can install Linux on a Surface Book, that's not the problem. The problem is getting support for all of features. And in the case like a DIY PC build for gaming, sure, basic hardware overall but then where's the software to utilize such a device?

 

[Retronym]

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/31/cryptkeeper_cooked/

Linux encryption app Cryptkeeper has a bug that causes it to use a single-letter universal decryption password: "p".

 

[heatlesssun]

Out of the top ten games available on Steam based on popularity all but two are available under Linux, it's not the Linux users overstating anything and I'm sure anyone considering switching to Linux will check the situation under Steam out for themselves to see if the switch is worthwhile.

As of right now, only 3 of the top 10 selling games on Steam have a Linux version.

The issue is that Windows users are vastly understating the growth of Linux overall in such a short period of time.

Ok, but right now VR only is getting more games faster then Linux so let's see how the year goes.

Personally, I think you're in a Windows vacuum.

I just don't see how you think Linux which is getting so few titles compared to Windows on Steam is experiencing "explosive" growth on Steam.

 

[heatlesssun]

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/31/cryptkeeper_cooked/

Linux encryption app Cryptkeeper has a bug that causes it to use a single-letter universal decryption password: "p".

Stuff happens, even in the world of Linux. We patch our Linux servers each and every month just like our Windows servers.

 

[Snowdog]

KSP is the best game ever made. I switched to Linux in October, I was posting about KSP here (and over on the official KSP forums, I'm DeathFromBelow on both forums). If it makes you feel any better, my 2nd favorite is the original Thief: The Dark Project. I have no idea if that one runs under Linux, haven't tried it yet.

With that out of the way, cut the crap about sour grapes.

https://s23.postimg.org/4ejbh186z/Games_list.png

And that's just the chunk that happened to be installed when I took that screenshot. You're talking to somebody who spent way to much time trying to explain privilege escalation to the masses back during the Vista days. I'm a long-time Windows guy and I have a huge collection of games.

When I say 'all my favorite games are on Linux' I'm not shitting you, I literally mean 'all my favorite games are on Linux.' I have enough games on Linux now that I don't have enough free time to play them all. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. No, it's not 100% of the list above, but Linux has reached the point that I didn't mind making the switch even with that huge list of Windows games. If I can do it I expect a lot of people around here can.

You kind of missed the point on KSP. I asked what if it didn't run on Linux.

Imagine if KSP came out after you switched to Linux, and it was Windows only. What would your reaction be?

Unless, you can see the future, you don't know this situation won't happen with some other potential "Best game Ever" that is Windows only.

About your Windows game List, just makes you look more disingenuous. Before you said:

All of my favorite games are Linux native.

Now looking at the games installed on Windows, I see:

3 different GTA games plus expansions. I would think you must really like these, but none of your favorite games here?

A LOT of Fantasy RPGs such as: Dungeon Siege III, Dragon Age, Marrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. You must really like Fantasy RPGs, but again, no Favorites here?

6 different Star Wars games? No favorites here either??

You seem to spend a LOT of time and/or Money on games that aren't your favorites.

 

[ChadD]

I can install Linux on a Surface Book, that's not the problem. The problem is getting support for all of features. And in the case like a DIY PC build for gaming, sure, basic hardware overall but then where's the software to utilize such a device?

Again what features are not supported on a standard Desktop PC in Linux that are in Windows ? Really what "feature" do you want that doesn't work ?

Your not going to be able to list anything specific because its a BS argument. The hardware is supported. To many people make it sound like its going to be a chore just to get Linux to boot... and work. Which simply isn't true.
The Linux kernel is going to recognize your Wi Fi cards your video cards your mice your keyboards your sound cards... its going to have specific tweaks and support for advanced power features on your CPU and MBs.
There simply isn't anything out there right now that isn't going to just run. Talking about software differences in UIs ect isn't the same thing as hardware support... and honestly all the talk from some windows folk about the state Linux of hardware support galls me. Your argument is 3+ years out of date. At one time yes we can all agree that Linux didn't get a lot of large vendor support and most support added to the kernel was being added by people like me cause we wanted it and took the time to make it happen. The last 3-4 years that has changed (and yes we have Google and Android in part to thank for the kick start), Linux now has every major hardware manufacturer in the world supporting it. The folks that make hardware these days all provide code for their devices directly to the Linux kernel team... and the Kernel is updated almost monthly, adding support for new devices every month. The days of having to hold off buying the latest Intel processor if your a Linux person are behind us. At this point device support for Linux is at least on par... and in some ways better then it is for Windows. (as more and more some chipsets for things like WiFi ect are manufactured with out a thought of those units ever shipping in a windows box... not that, that has much to do with desktop PCs though).

Bottom line is a person coming to Linux with a new machine isn't going to have any more hardware issues then they would in Windows.

The arguments for sticking with Windows and older version of windows or switching to Linux or Mac OS... yes lots of it is going to be about software choices. So sure if your really into the "AAA" games stick with windows. If your a web developer... clearly Linux is the best option. If your into desktop publishing and other media work... MacOS is likely a better choice over windows.

Windows as others have said... has the advantage of being pretty good or at least ok for everything. Its not the best at anything outside of gaming but it can at least do everything. As long as you can live with a system that updates as it pleases and spys on you. (not that googles or apples don't)

 

[heatlesssun]

Again what features are not supported on a standard Desktop PC in Linux that are in Windows ? Really what "feature" do you want that doesn't work ?

No one was ever arguing features in Windows per se, it's the combination of hardware AND software support, particularly for the latest and greatest, that's just much better in Windows. I could install Linux on my sig rig but then what? Most of my games wouldn't work natively, no Microsoft Office, OmniPage, Acrobat or VR. And there may be stuff that works in Wine or some other approach, but out the gate the missing "features" would be the games and applications I use constantly.

 

[BulletDust]

As of right now, only 3 of the top 10 selling games on Steam have a Linux version.

As of right now 5 out of 10 titles have a native Linux version. This is great, the top ten titles are changing all the time and chances are there's always native Linux ports right up there!

Ok, but right now VR only is getting more games faster then Linux so let's see how the year goes.

We'll see, unless the price drops considerably I wouldn't hold your breath. It's going to be a very niche market as not everyone likes playing games wearing 3D goggles waving their hands in the air. I remember from my days playing Nvidia 3D, competitive online play was out of the question as it was actually harder aiming in 3D than it was in 2D as the crosshair was on a separate plane to everything else - It was hopeless. As a result I literally never used those glasses.

I just don't see how you think Linux which is getting so few titles compared to Windows on Steam is experiencing "explosive" growth on Steam.

Because you keep trying to compare it to Windows, everyone else knows full well that there is no way you can compare growth of Linux on Steam to the Growth of Windows on Steam - That's just a given, it's flat out common sense.

However, comparing Windows after 2-3 years on Steam to Linux after 2-3 years on Steam, that would be a fairer comparison and would actually be a very interesting one.

No one was ever arguing features in Windows per se, it's the combination of hardware AND software support, particularly for the latest and greatest, that's just much better in Windows. I could install Linux on my sig rig but then what? Most of my games wouldn't work natively, no Microsoft Office, OmniPage, Acrobat or VR. And there may be stuff that works in Wine or some other approach, but out the gate the missing "features" would be the games and applications I use constantly.

No such issues here, and I'm in no way overstating anything. However, the point has been made time and time again, need Windows specific software = Stick to Windows, no one cares.

 

[heatlesssun]

As of right now 5 out of 10 titles have a native Linux version. This is great, the top ten titles are changing all the time and chances are there's always native Linux ports right up there!

I'm still only see three top 10 sellers with Linux versions right now, really only two as one is ARK: Survival Evolved and DLC for it, the other is Rocket League. Of course this will be a volatile thing but chances are pretty could that there won't always be Linux ports right up there.

We'll see, unless the price drops considerably I wouldn't hold your breath. It's going to be a very niche market as not everyone likes playing games wearing 3D goggles waving their hands in the air. I remember from my days playing Nvidia 3D, competitive online play was out of the question as it was actually harder aiming in 3D than it was in 2D as the crosshair was on a separate plane to everything else - It was hopeless. As a result I literally never used those glasses.

Obviously there's a long way to go with VR but I think there's enough interest in it now to the point it's not going away and like all technology, better pricing and performance will come in time. As far as emerging technologies in the gaming space VR is tops right now. Maybe it won't pan out but it's certainly not going away tomorrow.

Because you keep trying to compare it to Windows, everyone else knows full well that there is no way you can compare growth of Linux on Steam to the Growth of Windows on Steam - That's just a given, it's flat out common sense.

As this thread is about Windows 10 alternatives comparisons to these alternatives is exactly the point. If a Windows 10 gamer is going to look at Linux as alternative it's hard to avoid the large difference in title support between Windows 10 and Linux. Yes, it could be ignored by some like those that simply don't want to use Windows for anything but those folks are putting the OS head of everything else. That's probably not how many Windows gamers would look at it.

However, comparing Windows after 2-3 years on Steam to Linux after 2-3 years on Steam, that would be a fairer comparison and would actually be a very interesting one.

I'm not really sure what that comparison would mean. I guess the idea is that one could extrapolate the future of Linux and its growth on Steam based on Windows. However the big problem with that is Windows dominant client share. Desktop Linux isn't going away and neither is desktop Linux gaming. But if Windows continues to be as dominant as it is for gaming then it's hard to see Linux being a viable alternative to most PC gamers that simply want a choice of as many games as possible.

No such issues here, and I'm in no way overstating anything. However, the point has been made time and time again, need Windows specific software = Stick to Windows, no one cares.

Fair enough. But this is a primary reason why people do stick to Windows, particularly for PC gaming as virtually all PC games come to Windows.

 

[Snowdog]

Again what features are not supported on a standard Desktop PC in Linux that are in Windows ? Really what "feature" do you want that doesn't work ?

Your not going to be able to list anything specific because its a BS argument. The hardware is supported. To many people make it sound like its going to be a chore just to get Linux to boot... and work. Which simply isn't true.
The Linux kernel is going to recognize your Wi Fi cards your video cards your mice your keyboards your sound cards...

When I talk about HW support, I am not talking about the basics like Mouse/KB. I am talking about extra things you plug into your PC, like my previously mentioned Handheld GPS and GPS Running watch. These often rely on custom driver and proprietary SW. They just work on Windows. They don't on Linux.

If you have need to plug something beyond the basics, you simply have no idea how/if you are going to get it running on Linux.

Windows as others have said... has the advantage of being pretty good or at least ok for everything. Its not the best at anything outside of gaming but it can at least do everything. As long as you can live with a system that updates as it pleases and spys on you. (not that googles or apples don't)

Windows pretty much has the best software for EVERYTHING, unless you a doing Linux Development (then use Linux) or MacOS/iOS development (then use a Mac).

So pretty much unless you are a Mac/iPhone/Linux software developer, you will be best served by Windows.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

If I was strong enough, I think I could use a dead horse to literally beat a dead horse...

 

[BulletDust]

I'm still only see three top 10 sellers with Linux versions right now, really only two as one is ARK: Survival Evolved and DLC for it, the other is Rocket League. Of course this will be a volatile thing but chances are pretty could that there won't always be Linux ports right up there.



Obviously there's a long way to go with VR but I think there's enough interest in it now to the point it's not going away and like all technology, better pricing and performance will come in time. As far as emerging technologies in the gaming space VR is tops right now. Maybe it won't pan out but it's certainly not going away tomorrow.



As this thread is about Windows 10 alternatives comparisons to these alternatives is exactly the point. If a Windows 10 gamer is going to look at Linux as alternative it's hard to avoid the large difference in title support between Windows 10 and Linux. Yes, it could be ignored by some like those that simply don't want to use Windows for anything but those folks are putting the OS head of everything else. That's probably not how many Windows gamers would look at it.



I'm not really sure what that comparison would mean. I guess the idea is that one could extrapolate the future of Linux and its growth on Steam based on Windows. However the big problem with that is Windows dominant client share. Desktop Linux isn't going away and neither is desktop Linux gaming. But if Windows continues to be as dominant as it is for gaming then it's hard to see Linux being a viable alternative to most PC gamers that simply want a choice of as many games as possible.



Fair enough. But this is a primary reason why people do stick to Windows, particularly for PC gaming as virtually all PC games come to Windows.

Beats head against wall.

If you're going to refuse to accept valid points of argument than this thread has run it's course. Believe whatever you like Heatlesssun, geezus.

 

[heatlesssun]

Beats head against wall.

If you're going to refuse to accept valid points of argument than this thread has run it's course. Believe whatever you like Heatlesssun, geezus.

It boils down to different desires. When I build a gaming PC I want the ability to play all the latest and greatest games that come to the PC. I'm not going to play anywhere near all of them but I will play some of them. I get that others see it differently. But in this particular forum where a lot of people spend a lot of money on hardware to play games, my view of it is pretty common.

 

[Darunion]

Now I am picturing people fighting about which is better, megabloks or lego. People are happy with the one they like but only certain blocks will work on both.

 

[BulletDust]

It boils down to different desires. When I build a gaming PC I want the ability to play all the latest and greatest games that come to the PC. I'm not going to play anywhere near all of them but I will play some of them. I get that others see it differently. But in this particular forum where a lot of people spend a lot of money on hardware to play games, my view of it is pretty common.

That part of the discussion is irrelevant. It boils down to your own blind blatant bias and you're complete inability to quote "fair point" and move on.\

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before, it's like arguing with a small child.

[H]OCP is not specifically a gaming forum.

 

[BulletDust]

But there still is no alternative to Windows.

In my case there is, surely I'm not the only one?

This is a bit of a blanket statement.

 

[BulletDust]

Now I am picturing people fighting about which is better, megabloks or lego. People are happy with the one they like but only certain blocks will work on both.

It's Lego.

End of discussion.

 

[BulletDust]

I don't agree with the statement you quoted (that I said). The statement is just what I take from the "discussion" that is going on here.

You say that in your case there is an alternative to Windows, only to have someone here reply the reason why there is no alternative. Sadly it's the usual suspects. I tend to learn more from those putting forward the "there is an alternative..." position than those holding the "there is no alternative" position.

I see.

My apologies my friend.

 

[lcpiper]

Guys, Telemetry (Data mining / spying) in Windows 10 is a massive departure from every other build of Windows to date. It is full blown NSA class spying! Windows 10 is preconfigured to grant itself Super User access to my PC, keylog ....You seriously need to read the Windows 10 Terms of Service and Privacy Statement to fully appreciate the spectrum and gravity of changes.

Blah Blah TOS Statement...

Let's put some things into perspective;
How many of the things listed above, that are preconfigured, are done so and would reasonably support remote tech support capabilities? ie.... you are calling them to help fix your system problems.

Given the wide variety of cell phone(mobile) type apps, how much different are these TOS statements?

This OS is also a mobile OS, as such, your computer is much more of a communications centric device and so is this software and as such, it now must comply with Federal Communications Regulations the in the past, they didn't have to bother with.

Now I don't like the OS, but for the gaming I do, it's the only game in town that makes sense to play. Laws are laws and those laws have as much to do with what goes into a TOS as a company's desires to dominate the free world. These things are a result of the blending of a desktop computer OS and Mobile OS into a single entity that now must conform to legal and technical requirements from both worlds.

As for NSA class spying ..... I don't even need to tell you what they can get, all I have to point out is this article .....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)
And put it into perspective, all classified information facilities are TEMPESTed since before I first entered the Army in 1981 ........ So ask yourself why ? And think about it in relation to your home and how well you think it might be shielded. I mean, if this was so important over 35 years ago, how much more important and what greater implications could it have today?



You can all go dig out those tin foil hats you put away back when.


I can hear your hard drive writing the 1s and 0s as we speak

 

[heatlesssun]

That part of the discussion is irrelevant. It boils down to your own blind blatant bias and you're complete inability to quote "fair point" and move on.\

It's completely fair to make comparisons between Windows 10 and alternatives in q thread about Windows 10 alternatives.

[H]OCP is not specifically a gaming forum.

The content on [H]ardOCP is primarily about DIY PC gaming and subjects related to PC gaming.

 

[heatlesssun]

What I take from this is there is absolutely no alternative to Windows [10] (this is beyond obvious according to heatlesssun).

Not at all what I've said. I was very specific about what I said and there are others here that have said similar things. In specific terms, if one wants the ability to play any of the latest and greatest PC games with support for things like VR there are no currently alternatives to Windows and going forward for the next few years only Windows 10 will be supported for virtually everything in the PC gaming market.

Unless you switched from Windows.

No one who totally ditched Windows would apply to what I said. They typically frown upon the latest AAA unless it has a native Linux version or runs well under Wine and VR is nothing more than u people waving their hands in air" that costs too much currently.

 

[ChadD]

The content on [H]ardOCP is primarily about DIY PC gaming and subjects related to PC gaming.

Darn here I thought this was a hardware site.

I guess your right... they should stop reviewing stupid things like power supplies, cases and storage. What we all really want is a review of the new Resident Evil.

This isn't a gaming first site heatle... they use games in reviews of things like GPUs. That is logical and one of the best ways to determine real world performance. Gaming is just part of the package, but this isn't a "gaming" site.

 

[ChadD]

Not at all what I've said. I was very specific about what I said and there are others here that have said similar things. In specific terms, if one wants the ability to play any of the latest and greatest PC games with support for things like VR there are no currently alternatives to Windows and going forward for the next few years only Windows 10 will be supported for virtually everything in the PC gaming market.

I feel really stupid for continuing to go on about this... VR is early, VR sets work in Linux, its their closed markets that are windows only for the moment. Claiming that windows 10 will be the only supported platform in the next few years is just stupid >.< Steam has already announced their VR marketplace will be shipping out to Linux at some point this year (they have publicly demonstrated VIVE on SteamOS). OpenVR is still in flux but it has Linux support. At this point console VR is more popular then desktop VR... and its still up in the air if this will ever really become a mass market thing at all even in high end gamer circles.

No one who totally ditched Windows would apply to what I said. They typically frown upon the latest AAA unless it has a native Linux version or runs well under Wine and VR is nothing more than u people waving their hands in air" that costs too much currently.

Thanks for summing it up for us. lmao

What we have said is what plenty of people have said. VR is never going to catch on while there is a format war going on... and until that ends no one knows for sure if it will catch on or not. Its mass market appeal has not been proven, its still as likely that VR goes the way of the curved screens as becomes a defacto piece of hardware gamers just own. Its not that the costs are two high right now frankly... its that there isn't one sure format. I would spend 500-800 bucks on VR for sure... if I 100% knew for sure that down the road it would still be good to go. However format wars and version 1.0 hardware holds plenty of people back from jumping in.

So seeing as most windows users don't have a VR set and no intentions of buying one any time soon... its not a major factor in determining what OS you want to use, no matter how you feel about games in general.

 

[heatlesssun]

I guess your right... they should stop reviewing stupid things like power supplies, cases and storage. What we all really want is a review of the new Resident Evil.

LOL! Seriously? What group would care more about PSUs, cases and storage than PC gamers?

This isn't a gaming first site heatle... they use games in reviews of things like GPUs. That is logical and one of the best ways to determine real world performance. Gaming is just part of the package, but this isn't a "gaming" site.

I didn't say this was a gaming site, I said the content on [H]ardOCP is primarily focused around DIY PC gaming. Big difference.

 

[heatlesssun]

I feel really stupid for continuing to go on about this... VR is early, VR sets work in Linux, its their closed markets that are windows only for the moment. Claiming that windows 10 will be the only supported platform in the next few years is just stupid >.< Steam has already announced their VR marketplace will be shipping out to Linux at some point this year (they have publicly demonstrated VIVE on SteamOS). OpenVR is still in flux but it has Linux support. At this point console VR is more popular then desktop VR... and its still up in the air if this will ever really become a mass market thing at all even in high end gamer circles.

I said going forward that Windows 10 will be the only OS that's virtually guaranteed all support for the latest and greatest in PC games and hardware. I didn't say other OSes wouldn't be supported. I never said Linux VR would be supported. Right now there's not much out there. As for console VR being more popular, the PS is getting a number of exclusive titles because Sony is paying for now. But there's plenty of VR content on Steam coming every day.

What we have said is what plenty of people have said. VR is never going to catch on while there is a format war going on... and until that ends no one knows for sure if it will catch on or not.

It's not really a "format war", most of this stuff is pretty interoperable, many titles on Steam now support Vive, Rift and OSVR. Much of the issue again has been about contract exclusives and the Rift lacking motion controllers until recently.

Its mass market appeal has not been proven, its still as likely that VR goes the way of the curved screens as becomes a defacto piece of hardware gamers just own.

Even some Windows 10 haters around here would say you're wrong on this. And you could very well be correct but in any case, VR isn't going to disappear quickly even if it does fail in the long run.

 

[Travolta]

The best part of this thread is if someone mentions windows, heatlesssun shows up, if someone mentions NSA, Icpiper shows up.

 

[Snowdog]

The best part of this thread is if someone mentions windows, heatlesssun shows up, if someone mentions NSA, Icpiper shows up.

While Heatless is a very stalwart defender of Windows, even on subjective maters, he is objectively correct in this case.

Windows does have the most software in every category, which leads to more choice and ultimately better software in the users hands, along with better HW support.

There should be no point debating that. The Linux advocates should just admit the truth.

Then tell us what we gain by giving up all that software choice and HW support.

Instead all we get are attempts to pretend the SW/HW advantage doesn't exist or doesn't matter.

 

[BulletDust]

It's completely fair to make comparisons between Windows 10 and alternatives in q thread about Windows 10 alternatives.



The content on [H]ardOCP is primarily about DIY PC gaming and subjects related to PC gaming.

Complete bullshit.

 

[BulletDust]

I guess this is sort of related to the subject of viable alternatives to Windows 10: Rumoured official AMD Ryzen support for Windows 7: https://hardforum.com/threads/rumour-ryzen-will-receive-official-windows-7-support-from-amd.1923945/

It's very much related to Windows 10 alternatives and this is excellent news for Windows 7 users - Power to you all!

 

[tetris42]

- We are talking about alternatives to windows.
- Games are not the reason for the PCs as a platform

They're certainly part of the equation. I would bet GPU development wouldn't be anywhere near where it is without videocard sales for games fueling R&D this entire time.

What I take from this is there is absolutely no alternative to Windows [10] (this is beyond obvious according to heatlesssun).

Unless you switched from Windows. Then whatever works for you. But there still is no alternative to Windows.

I think for this forum at least, if you can do everything you use Windows for on Linux, then you've already switched. If you CAN'T, then you're still on Windows for good reason. Most of the debate seems to be over Linux users trying to convince the Windows users that because they and some others don't need Windows, nobody needs Windows.

 

[ManofGod]

The best part of this thread is if someone mentions windows, heatlesssun shows up, if someone mentions NSA, Icpiper shows up.

And if someone mentions Linux, Bulletdust and Deathfrombelow show up, making claims of Linux Gaming Superiority.

 

[ManofGod]

Complete bullshit.

In your opinion, yes.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think for this forum at least, if you can do everything you use Windows for on Linux, then you've already switched. If you CAN'T, then you're still on Windows for good reason. Most of the debate seems to be over Linux users trying to convince the Windows users that because they and some others don't need Windows, nobody needs Windows.

I think this is an important point. I've never denied that Linux has many advantages, it's free, there's no activation to deal with, it doesn't have any real issues with local malware, it's much more configurable and easier to control and there's little to be concerned about in the way of privacy. So there are clear advantages to Linux. But on the other side of it, Linux's low market share means it simply doesn't get top tier support. That's obvious and I've never said it's a technical problem with Linux, but it is BY FAR the biggest issue with using desktop Linux.

And I've long said that for many desktop users, those that don't need top line commercial software, aren't into playing the latest and greatest games or care about leading edge hardware, and that's a lot of people, Linux on the desktop could serve people like this well. Indeed most all of the pro-Linux folks describe themselves in these terms. They don't care about AAA titles or VR or Photoshop and constantly are saying how unimportant these kinds of things are. So be it. But that far from a universal opinion.

This is it in a nutshell. It's not a complex issue and it's been around forever. Yes, Linux has improved in areas like gaming but so has everything else.

 

[ChadD]

They're certainly part of the equation. I would bet GPU development wouldn't be anywhere near where it is without videocard sales for games fueling R&D this entire time.

I think for this forum at least, if you can do everything you use Windows for on Linux, then you've already switched. If you CAN'T, then you're still on Windows for good reason. Most of the debate seems to be over Linux users trying to convince the Windows users that because they and some others don't need Windows, nobody needs Windows.

GPU development may have started that way... but lets all be honest with ourselves. For companies like Nvidia... they have moved their development more and more toward other markets. They don't even like using the term GPU much anymore.

We have never said if you love windows games you should stop running Windows.

What most of us have been suggesting is you should think about dual booting. (to which some windows people) have replied that they won't bother because it takes work.

Perhaps what I will do to inject something a bit different into this argument back and forth is list the ADVANTAGES to dual booting Linux and Windows. (As I and many other Linux boosters do)

1) Use Windows ONLY for things that are not critical to me. Yes my documents and other important WORK is on my Linux drive... a drive which is running a more advanced file system where files are far less likely to get corrupted or lost in an OS crash. I am also running a much more secure OS for anything important to me... no virus issues, no real worries about malware or anything else. My Linux system is secure, that may not matter to everyone. Still it can't be argued really.
2) Because my Windows drive ONLY plays a handful of games... my Windows runs faster for longer. Yes Windows uses the terrible NTFS which still requires a regular defrag regiment.... and it uses the Windows system which tends to bloat its own registry and in general slows down the more you install.
3) I never have to worry about a forced update barging in on me while I'm doing anything important.
4) Because my windows is a games only drive... I can run a nice lean stripped down windows tailored for my games and games alone.
5) I run my windows copy on its own Drive and I have OS redundancy... well ok no Linux has never ever ever died on me but previous copies of windows have. Granted you could always boot from a USB to recover things from a drive that isn't 100% dead... still if a drive does 100% fail your system still has a booting OS. (when I decided to kill my Win 10 drive and reinstall Win7... I copied a handful of files from Win 10 to my Linux drive from Linux... one hell of a lot easier and faster then messing around copying things to backups. Linux has no issues reading and writing NTFS)
6) I tend to waste less time with a few time wasting (online) games... as I will simply decide to not reboot when I should be working. (OK I am half joking don't jump on this heatle... I'm giving you ammo lol)

IMO there is no reason not to run both at this point.

Linux does so many things better, where it lacks and no one really denies it is console port game support. (again freaking joking... seriously for some game types that aren't simply on PS4 like Online MMOs Windows is still better) So in my case when I am playing games I'm likely in LInux 80% of the time... but for some specific games (in my case mostly Online games where I PvP ect I boot into my stripped down game running Win 7 drive). I mean what is the argument against... that it is a pain in the butt ? Who is that important that they can't shut down Linux (5s in my case) and Restart Windows (30s or so).

 

[ChadD]

And I've long said that for many desktop users, those that don't need top line commercial software, aren't into playing the latest and greatest games or care about leading edge hardware, and that's a lot of people, Linux on the desktop could serve people like this well. Indeed most all of the pro-Linux folks describe themselves in these terms. They don't care about AAA titles or VR or Photoshop and constantly are saying how unimportant these kinds of things are. So be it. But that far from a universal opinion.

Your argument is half the way there heatle you still use words like "top line" commercial software. Just because someone charges more doesn't mean its better. Many professionals use Linux... because it is BETTER. If your a PROFESSIONAL web developer chances that you are not running windows are pretty darn high. Why mess around with hacking stuff to run on windows when it all runs native on Linux. Considering that the majority of development these days is web based or at least ties into... yes Linux has a far greater % of usage with that crowd.

In the course of my work I have done a good amount of web design... less so in the last handful of years as other things that make me more money and I enjoy more have taken my time. Still I have done plenty and I'm not talking about hand coding some html for the local bake shop or something. I have taken care of some pretty complicated systems using drupal and hooking into software for things like Call centers ect. (no one does that type of stuff in Windows... NO ONE). Ok correction that one job I'm thinking of... the previous guy did run windows, and the work he had done was working but man what a freaking mess. Which is why a friend (the guy who wrote the call centers software) called to have me to unfuck it for them. I was able to fix for them in a week (at a very reasonable rate) what the previous guy had taken months to do and charged them a STUPID amount of money. Trust me when I heard how much they paid him later I thought I should have gouged those dumb bastards. (joking)

Photoshop is not the simple default pro app it once was. I am not claiming to be a graphics pro guy myself... but I have worked with some larger companies (thinking of one publisher I have done work for) where their art guys (10 guys or so in that dept) where all on MACs and not running photoshop.

Anyway I was trying to walk away from the back and forth. No one is changing any minds here. lol