Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[heatlesssun]

Me too. I like Windows. I like Linux. I hate Linux and Windows zealots. IMO they accomplish the exact opposite of painting their platform in a good light with their antics. Linux being the smaller desktop platform tends to make it's advocates even more zealous and thus more annoying.

Everything has its strengths and weaknesses, even Windows. For PC gaming, it's in a league of its own because of the support it gets. That doesn't mean I'm a zealot, I simply look at what's out there and see plainly that this is the case. It's not up for debate, it's the reality of the situation. If Linux supports want to see Linux REALLY mature as a real gaming alternative, you're going to have to get developers to create top tier Linux games at the same clip as Windows and have them launch at the same time.

It's not an easy task but that's the only way Linux will become viable for PC gaming. People don't want a thousand different excuses when all they want to do is play a game.

 

[ChadD]

Oh yeah, way back in ancient 2015. 5% was the high water mark, most were around 1-2% (from the 2015 version). If anything, the more well known the title was, the less percentage points it had for Linux sales. Steam shows less than 1% of OS's, but like it was stated, that doesn't include Steam machines. My guess is the real number is right around 1-2%. I've provided two sources, one straight from the mouths of devs themselves, with the more recent article 4x games I imagine get a couple more percentage points since they sort of fit the stereotype of the typical Linux user. I mean you talk about cherry picking, you're literally picking the highest listed numbers and providing no other source for Linux game sales data.

See these are the sort of statements that get me riled up. You're comparing WINE to DOSbox. Dosbox enjoys maybe a 99.9% game compatibility rating? It's been YEARS since I've run into any DOS game that couldn't run on it, and even then, that was very rare. With WINE, I easily have a dozen or two titles not even listed in their database and it's not hard for me to find ones that have unplayable ratings. If Linux was in such a state where it couldn't run a lot of brand new games, but games that were 2+ years old were pretty much a sure thing of being able to run, I would honestly consider switching. I'm fine with waiting for compatbility, but I don't like waiting for support that's never going to come. DOSbox is a shining example of EXCELLENT compatibility. Unless support on WINE is currently so damn good that it's unheard of to find a game older than a couple years that WON'T run on it properly, this is a misleading comparison.

When it comes to % points you have to consider the sales volume. Sure 1-2% of a large release game is huge.

Its clear to the game companies in the article that sales are good... what the numbers say is that there are X amount of dedicated Linux gamers who buy almost every game that is offered to us.

Think of it this way.... if there is 2,500 Linux gamers who buy EVERY game offered to linux. If the game sells 100,000 copies... that is only 2.5%. If the game sells 50,000 cause its not as popular with the masses that same 2,500 Linux ysers account for 5%. It means Linux gamers are better at supporting smaller studios cause we eat up every half decent game offered to us. Supporting Linux is pretty much guaranteed money for developers.... seems to me at least in back in 2014 almost every developer supporting Linux could count on a solid X number of sales for sure.

Wine = Dosbos... shouldn't upset you.
They are both Emulators. Yes Wine is emulator. If you take any game that has been out for more then 2+ years yes Wine supports it very well.

The issue for Wine is that Windows isn't a dead platform... software continues to get released.

Dos box is emulating a system that hasn't had a new piece of software released in 20 years. So I should hope it has no issues. Also Dos is a system with well known standards and the code has been picked a part pretty well.

Wine on the other hand is made by people who are have honestly guessed at a lot of functions... Wine 2.0 is better sure not perfect. In the future hey MS just open sourced DX 12... I have to believe that is going to help a ton.

 

[heatlesssun]

No no it does not.

Sudo is a simple program designed to allow users to do things as another user. The difference is the systems Admin has to be very specific in which users can do what. Yes most distros set you up a basic wheel group or whatever so switchers feel more at home I guess. However users setup that way still have some very important restrictions. Anyway no its sort of like Windows I guess, if you think Billy Ray Cyrus is on par with say Mozart. (ok perhaps Sudo isn't that great... still my point is made lol)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo

So what is the difference between runas and sudo? They do exactly the same thing, allow the spawning of processes as a different user than the currently logged in one.

 

[ChadD]

So what is the difference between runas and sudo? They do exactly the same thing, allow the spawning of processes as a different user than the currently logged in one.

Its simple one is secure and references a sudoers list the other doesn't. Runas takes more commands to work... Terminals setup with Linux are much more secure, well they can be setup to be, then again if you want a terminal to be secure your not likely adding those accounts to the sudoer list anyway. Bottom line is that is the difference sudo usage must be assigned and has more options as to what you are going to allow people access to.
I am not likely explaining things very well... this might give you a better idea.
http://www.byteworks.com/blog/sudo/

 

[heatlesssun]

Its simple one is secure and references a sudoers list the other doesn't. Runas takes more commands to work... Terminals setup with Linux are much more secure, well they can be setup to be, then again if you want a terminal to be secure your not likely adding those accounts to the sudoer list anyway. Bottom line is that is the difference sudo usage must be assigned and has more options as to what you are going to allow people access to.
I am not likely explaining things very well... this might give you a better idea.
http://www.byteworks.com/blog/sudo/

They function a bit differently but operationally they're pretty much the same thing, allowing a lower privilege user to run as a higher privileged user while still logged in as a lower privileged user.

 

[Snowdog]

Everything has its strengths and weaknesses, even Windows. For PC gaming, it's in a league of its own because of the support it gets. That doesn't mean I'm a zealot, I simply look at what's out there and see plainly that this is the case. It's not up for debate, it's the reality of the situation. If Linux supports want to see Linux REALLY mature as a real gaming alternative, you're going to have to get developers to create top tier Linux games at the same clip as Windows and have them launch at the same time.

It's not an easy task but that's the only way Linux will become viable for PC gaming. People don't want a thousand different excuses when all they want to do is play a game.

I don't disagree in this instance. But at times, it appears like you think the Sun revolves around Microsoft, and anything any other company does is because they are worried about Microsoft. Our biggest arguments were probably after the iPad was introduced, and you would argue how great Windows 7 was on a small touch tablet. When you get a reputation for a level of unwavering support it tends to undercut your arguments, even when they are correct.

But again here, it's the Linux zealots that are just saying crazy thing like Microsoft replacing Windows Kernel with the Linux Kernel. That is just so mind bogglingly wrong, I have a hard time believing anyone would believe that. You really have to be far through the looking glass to think that.

For the VAST majority of people Windows is a better choice because of the wider range of Software, excellent drivers, etc... Windows is the: "It just works" choice.

You need a very solid reason to give up what you get from Windows. Those reasons only exist for a small percentage of the population, and that is why Linux has forever failed to break through on the destkop.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't disagree in this instance. But at times, it appears like you think the Sun revolves around Microsoft, and anything any other company does is because they are worried about Microsoft. Our biggest arguments were probably after the iPad was introduced, and you would argue how great Windows 7 was on a small touch tablet. When you get a reputation for a level of unwavering support it tends to undercut your arguments, even when they are correct.

Fair enough, but in looking at the tablet market today I think I had some reasonable points. Much of what I've said about tablets, especially at higher price points, has to do with digital pens and how important those are to a certain segment of folks that are loyal customers willing to spend money on that type of thing. But I will say the thing that's surprised me this most is how quickly the tablet market collapsed.

But again here, it's the Linux zealots that are just saying crazy thing like Microsoft replacing Windows Kernel with the Linux Kernel. That is just so mind bogglingly wrong, I have a hard time believing anyone would believe that. You really have to be far through the looking glass to think that.

I simply have no idea that that's even about, at least from a desktop perspective where the Linux kernel doesn't seem offer anything so mindblowing as to have it replace a kernel that's dominated this space for almost a generation.

For the VAST majority of people Windows is a better choice because of the wider range of Software, excellent drivers, etc... Windows is the: "It just works" choice.

You need a very solid reason to give up what you get from Windows. Those reasons only exist for a small percentage of the population, and that is why Linux has forever failed to break through on the destkop.

I've said for ever it's not so much about Windows itself, it's about all that it supports. Replacing Windows is easy, replacing all of those apps and support in the desktop space, that's FAR more difficult. That's why I've also said that in Bullet's "Windows is McDonalds" world, it's much easier to replace those McDonalds folks, the ones that only use a web browser and have the most basic app and hardware needs than it is for gamers who crave the latest and greatest hardware and games.

 

[jtm55]

Hi All

Damn! I've run out of popcorn

 

[BulletDust]

WINE = Wine Is Not An Emulator.

It's actually reverse engineered Win32.

 

[BulletDust]

I've said for ever it's not so much about Windows itself, it's about all that it supports. Replacing Windows is easy, replacing all of those apps and support in the desktop space, that's FAR more difficult. That's why I've also said that in Bullet's "Windows is McDonalds" world, it's much easier to replace those McDonalds folks, the ones that only use a web browser and have the most basic app and hardware needs than it is for gamers who crave the latest and greatest hardware and games.

Replacing Windows isn't easy as it's popularity is solely based on sales of boxed brand name PC's. If PC's came with no OS, replacing Windows would happen overnight once people worked out the real cost of the OS.

Gaming is but a small percentage of PC users, but whether you want to admit it or not gaming under Linux is constantly growing - And that's a good thing for everyone and should not be met with blatant negativity from died in the wool Windows users. Things are changing as a great proportion of people just don't like the direction Windows is headed. The growth of titles under Windows vs Linux adds nothing to the argument and is a stupidly moot point if no one is ever going to play all 100% of the titles released under the Windows platform (more like 20% tops with maybe 15% available cross platform).

What we should all be is PC enthusiasts, screw Microsoft and screw Linux, we believe in the PC as a platform.

 

[BulletDust]

They function a bit differently but operationally they're pretty much the same thing, allowing a lower privilege user to run as a higher privileged user while still logged in as a lower privileged user.

Actually, UAC under a standard account is more like su under Linux while UAC under the more commonly used Administrator account is more like sudo without the arguably necessary requirement to enter a password (for the record, I believe that a moments pause to enter a password is absolutely necessary). Furthermore, when running UAC under an administrator account there's nothing stopping low level applications from injecting code into higher level applications as this was never the point of UAC under an admin account.

Microsoft's solution to malware is more of a reactive operation using malware and virus scanners as opposed to a proactive operation. The other issue is that Microsoft allows for an application to bypass UAC entirely by reading the application signature, this exploit has been used in the past to infect Windows systems.

 

[Jagger100]

So links from 2 and 3 years ago where one of the comments is "No, I think it will grow, due to steambox." Valve has all but abandoned SteamBox at this point. Its new fascination is VR.

At one point people though Valve had abandoned Steam. It was not well received at first. At least a 4-5 year gap from first introduction and when it took off. Linux is the same thing, its not frozen in time. Many people tinkered with Linux 15 years ago and their understanding/opinion of it hasn't changed. Linux will plod along getting better and one day, for home users, there will be no difference in functionality or performance.

 

[tetris42]

Wine = Dosbos... shouldn't upset you.
They are both Emulators. Yes Wine is emulator. If you take any game that has been out for more then 2+ years yes Wine supports it very well.

The issue for Wine is that Windows isn't a dead platform... software continues to get released.

Dos box is emulating a system that hasn't had a new piece of software released in 20 years. So I should hope it has no issues. Also Dos is a system with well known standards and the code has been picked a part pretty well.

Wine on the other hand is made by people who are have honestly guessed at a lot of functions... Wine 2.0 is better sure not perfect. In the future hey MS just open sourced DX 12... I have to believe that is going to help a ton.

I admit I'm not an expert in this area, but I think you're overselling it. I've used a lot of DOSbox and I've come to expect essentially any game to work, flawlessly. If WINE is actually at that state for 2+ year old games, it sure as hell needs to work on its messaging. I did a quick check on a few less popular titles as a test:

Earth 2150:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=2591
Has a bronze rating with not working: "Music, Video (video crashes or will not play)."
Has a silver rating on the GOG copy with not working: "gameplay / When gameplay is initiated rendering seems to freeze."

Kult: Heretic Kingdoms:
doesn't even have a WINE entry
Forum posts say the following: "Kult Heretic Kingdoms returns unhandled page fault"

Hard Truck Apocalypse:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=9919
Garbage rating, crashes on startup. Fails to load keyboard layout

Warhammer: Mark of Chaos:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=6995&iTestingId=80188
Bronze rating: "The game can be installed and launched without any serious problems but a few Bink Video lags; Yet, loading times (including mark of chaos trademark logo to main menu) are too long and outrageous. - Might have something with memory handling. Because FPS is seriously low. Gameplay, in some cases, may be unbearable."

Worldshift:
No entry or mention whatsoever

Loki:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=5862
Garbage rating, game doesn't run.

These are not new games. The most recent one there is 9 years old. These are just some picks off the top of my head, it didn't take me long at all to find problem cases like this. These are all games I've played and while not the best ever, were all enjoyable enough. I could keep going all day with this sort of thing.

I'll say it again: comparing WINE to DOSbox is totally misleading. If I fire up a game in DOSbox, I expect it to run flawlessly. I think 2007 was the last time I ran into a problem with any game I've run in DOSbox. It is a highly refined, highly compatible piece of software. The image WINE gives off is that it has compatibility holes in it like swiss cheese if you play a wide variety. I'm sure WINE can handle big, well-known titles like Starcraft or Diablo 2, etc. just fine. Those get a lot of attention and support. But once you veer outside the top 10 selling games for the year, a lot of cracks start showing. Browsing through the compatibility list reminds me more of the state of Playstation 2 or Dreamcast emulation in the past. I think WINE ranks behind those in terms of overall compatibility. Misleading gamers into thinking Linux will cover all the old games they want to play, then having hundreds of old titles they CAN'T play isn't doing your platform any favors. Comparing the state of Linux gaming to a highly polished want-for-nothing piece of software isn't doing Linux any favors either.

You say the issue for WINE is that Windows is always changing, so it's a hard target to hit. Fine, that explains newer games, but that doesn't explain all these 9-15 year old games that still can't run on WINE. They sure as hell haven't been changing all this time. You're saying games that are 2+ years old should have no problem on WINE. I think that's the obviously not the case, we're still in dice toss territory.

But hey, maybe I'm off base. Maybe all those titles I mentioned run perfectly and no one updated the database. Though who knows, while browsing, I actually saw a couple titles LOSE compatibility on newer versions of Linux. I think the more likely explanation is Linux gaming still has a long ways to go. If you think it's as robust as DOSbox, whatever, I at least pointed out some stuff that doesn't work. Given how easy it was for me to find some, I can only imagine how many other titles have problems. If you think that's the same thing as games working, what can I say, I can't argue with delusion.

Hi All

Damn! I've run out of popcorn

Well, I think the climax was someone claiming that Microsoft has their own version of Windows written in Linux, just waiting for the right moment to deploy.

 

[heatlesssun]

At one point people though Valve had abandoned Steam. It was not well received at first. At least a 4-5 year gap from first introduction and when it took off. Linux is the same thing, its not frozen in time. Many people tinkered with Linux 15 years ago and their understanding/opinion of it hasn't changed. Linux will plod along getting better and one day, for home users, there will be no difference in functionality or performance.

It's not so much of issues with Linux itself on the desktop, it's the support. Windows isn't frozen in time either, especially on the gaming side right now. More games than ever for Windows, far more than Linux and now immerging tech like VR which going on a year later and still no SteamVR for Linux. I it's supposed to be coming but it's a thin market right now for Windows even and given the enthusiasm I've seen from pro-Linux folks around here, I don't see too many Linux folks buying $800 worth of hardware to play VR titles.

Linux is just so far behind in PC gaming that I just don't see how the gap closes without SIGNIGICANTLY more market share.

 

[jwcalla]

Linux isn't going to be the go-to gaming platform unless game devs and the gaming industry pick up the flag and make it happen. Nobody else can do it. Linus can't do that, RedHat can't do that, Intel and nvidia can't do that. It'll be up to game devs but there are only so many resources that companies are willing to engage and their priorities are: consoles first, Windows a distant second and then if applicable a mobile version third.

 

[BulletDust]

There is nothing wrong with the current state of Linux in relation to gaming, titles are growing, technology is improving, developers are beginning to dabble with Vulkan. While I'm relying on memory here, steam started in 2003, by 2005 it had barely made a dent in the Windows gaming scene, it wasn't until 2007 that Steam under Windows really started to show promise - In direct comparison considering the time Linux has been supported by the Steam platform, Linux under Steam is growing at a very respectable rate and as a result it's blatantly undeniable that Linux awareness is also growing, especially with the direction Microsoft are headed with Windows.

These days Steam's really more about indie titles than AAA releases anyway, the AAA devs preferring to use their own distribution/DRM systems.

It's all a matter of personal choice, if you want to play Battlefield or RE7 or have some odd desire to use your PC with something strapped to your face while waving your arms in the air like an idiot than feel free to use Windows if you can accept the choices Microsoft has forced onto you. If such AAA titles don't really interest you in the slightest but you still enjoy gaming and full control over your PC and can adapt to something other than Adobe products than Linux is defiantly something worth considering.

What Windows folk don't understand is just how far Linux has advanced in the last 2-3 years alone, development of the platform has literally exploded - And why would they understand such a fact when they're hellbent on pointing out to the world how they avoid Linux for Windows, realistically speaking have little in the way of first hand daily experience with modern distro's and are quite happy to keep things that way?

We are PC enthusiasts, we love the platform, one's choice of OS should not even be a point worth arguing about as long as you can achieve everything you set out to achieve on your PC.

 

[ChadD]

You say the issue for WINE is that Windows is always changing, so it's a hard target to hit. Fine, that explains newer games, but that doesn't explain all these 9-15 year old games that still can't run on WINE. They sure as hell haven't been changing all this time. You're saying games that are 2+ years old should have no problem on WINE. I think that's the obviously not the case, we're still in dice toss territory.

But hey, maybe I'm off base. Maybe all those titles I mentioned run perfectly and no one updated the database. Though who knows, while browsing, I actually saw a couple titles LOSE compatibility on newer versions of Linux. I think the more likely explanation is Linux gaming still has a long ways to go. If you think it's as robust as DOSbox, whatever, I at least pointed out some stuff that doesn't work. Given how easy it was for me to find some, I can only imagine how many other titles have problems. If you think that's the same thing as games working, what can I say, I can't argue with delusion.

You make fair points. Yes the less well known a game is the more likely it is to have issues. The more mainstream a game or games based on well known engines like Unreal ect the less likely it is there will be issues.

Dosbox has the advantage of emulating a system that is far less complicated and software designed to run on it conforms to a relatively small set of function calls.

Where as wine is emulating Windows Vista / 7 / 8 / 10 DX 6 7 8 9 10 11.... and non of that is open sourced and reverse engineering is not legal. It means most of the Wine code is honestly guessed at based on developer SDKs ect. The fact that it works at all is honestly pretty amazing.

With the Wine list of games the thing to keep in mind as well is those reports (the golds silvers garbage reports) are all added by users. With Linux unlike windows the distro can make a big difference. You will find most of the people giving garbage or silver type ratings to games are doing so from distros like Ubuntu LTS and other long term support distros. That would tell me those people are running older Kernels systems possibly GPU drivers and often older versions of Wine. I know it can be a bit confusing... I guess it would be sort of like a site reporting how things ran on different versions of windows (7 / 10 Home / Pro ect) although clearly there would be far less variance then you get from Linux. Still just pointing out I almost ignore what people post on their if I notice they are running specific distros. (as I say mainly the distros I know are aimed at stable Server / workstation operation and not at all designed to be gamed on)

The bottom line when it gets right down to it is this. If you are planning to run a ton of Wine... you likely shouldn't be using Linux. Yes I'm a Linux booster and I say if you still have specific games you love and they are not on Linux do yourself a favor and keep a copy of windows on an old / small hard drive. I keep an old 300 gb drive loaded with Windows 7 and I don't deny it... I still boot windows now and then. I also use Wine here and there for the odd older game... and I have used to to run some stupid tax software. Dual booting still works well.... its not ideal no doubt, I wish there was a way to release a video card and pass it to a VM to make life easier but I know that isn't possible.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's all a matter of personal choice, if you want to play Battlefield or RE7 or have some odd desire to use your PC with something strapped to your face while waving your arms in the air like an idiot than feel free to use Windows if you can accept the choices Microsoft has forced onto you.

Again, your logic just doesn't work with the reality of the numbers:

Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 60

Windows games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 422

Windows VR games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 75

25% more games have been added to Steam for those you called wave arming idiots than all of Linux since 01/01/2017. So every game that came to Linux came to Windows, PLUS another 287. Discounting VR titles that's still almost a 5 to 1 ratio in favor of Windows. Linux may be growing in the gaming space, Windows is simply blowing past it to the point that Linux is simply falling behind more than ever.

 

[BulletDust]

Again, your logic just doesn't work with the reality of the numbers:

Linux games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 60

Windows games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 422

Windows VR games added to Steam to date since 01/01/2017 - 75

25% more games have been added to Steam for those you called wave arming idiots than all of Linux since 01/01/2017. So every game that came to Linux came to Windows, PLUS another 287. Discounting VR titles that's still almost a 5 to 1 ratio in favor of Windows. Linux may be growing in the gaming space, Windows is simply blowing past it to the point that Linux is simply falling behind more than ever.

Again, you're raising points that mean very little.

I'm talking about Linux and growth under Linux.

You're talking about Windows and growth under Windows.

Linux has been on the Steam platform for ~2-3 years.

Windows has been on the Steam platform for ~14 years.

At 2-3 years Windows most likely had less titles available under Steam than Linux does at the same period in time.

It comes as no surprise that Windows is achieving larger growth under Steam, but once again, who cares?

At 422 titles under Windows 20 of them may be worth playing.

At 60 titles under Linux, again, 20 of them may be worth playing.

There is no prerequisite that states anyone has to run Windows in order to participate in the [H] forums.

Microsoft is making a great many questionable decisions as of late.

I run Windows, I repair Windows machines.

You, do not run Linux and openly brag about your undying love for Windows 10.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I cannot for the life of me work out just why you seem to think there should be some form of relationship between gaming growth under Linux and gaming growth under Windows. If someone chooses to ignore Windows and run Linux as they prefer the OS I'm sure they're aware of this pointless statistic you keep spewing all over the forums.

You do not speak for the masses, you are but one, fairly insignificant, individual.

I am writing this post like this as your comprehension skills appear to be lacking, you constantly keep missing the point.

 

[heatlesssun]

Again, you're raising points that mean very little.

I'm talking about Linux and growth under Linux.

You're talking about Windows and growth under Windows.

Linux has been on the Steam platform for ~2-3 years.

Windows has been on the Steam platform for ~14 years.

At 2-3 years Windows most likely had less titles available under Steam than Linux does at the same period in time.

It comes as no surprise that Windows is achieving larger growth under Steam, but once again, who cares?

At 422 titles under Windows 20 of them may be worth playing.

At 60 titles under Linux, again, 20 of them may be worth playing.

There is no prerequisite that states anyone has to run Windows in order to participate in the [H] forums.

Microsoft is making a great many questionable decisions as of late.

I run Windows, I repair Windows machines.

You, do not run Linux and openly brag about your undying love for Windows 10.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I cannot for the life of me work out just why you seem to think there should be some form of relationship between gaming growth under Linux and gaming growth under Windows. If someone chooses to ignore Windows and run Linux as they prefer the OS I'm sure they're aware of this pointless statistic you keep spewing all over the forums.

You do not speak for the masses, you are but one, fairly insignificant, individual.

I am writing this post like this as your comprehension skills appear to be lacking, you constantly keep missing the point.

As you reminded me earlier, the title of this thread is "Thinking about Windows 10 alternatives. Not the state of Linux gaming. If you're going to mention Linux gaming in this thread, by nature of the title of thread, the state of Linux gaming should be compared to Windows 10. And Windows 10 simply destroys Linux in this area. You go out of your way to demean Windows users that are playing VR games and yet Linux gaming on Steam isn't even with those "hand waving idiots" as you've portray them.

You repair Windows machines, ok. You don't use them to anywhere near the capacity of what they can do however.

 

[Snowdog]

The bottom line when it gets right down to it is this. If you are planning to run a ton of Wine... you likely shouldn't be using Linux. Yes I'm a Linux booster and I say if you still have specific games you love and they are not on Linux do yourself a favor and keep a copy of windows on an old / small hard drive. I keep an old 300 gb drive loaded with Windows 7 and I don't deny it... I still boot windows now and then. I also use Wine here and there for the odd older game... and I have used to to run some stupid tax software. Dual booting still works well.... its not ideal no doubt, I wish there was a way to release a video card and pass it to a VM to make life easier but I know that isn't possible.

Yes, exactly. Been there, done that. But what I found when dual booting, is that when I was in Linux I often wanted to do something I could only do in Windows, so I had to do the reboot hassle. But when I was in Windows, that never happened, Linux had nothing I couldn't do in Windows.

That is the problem with Windows having ten times as much software as Linux in a dual boot situation. Eventually after the reboot things happens enough, I just get frustrated and think to myself: Why I am bothering? This has happened almost every time (10+ times) I installed Linux at home. Still every once in a while I give Linux another shot, to see if I can get Linux far enough over the line to not be rebooting to Windows too much, and if it is actually more genuinely desirable to use.

This time I will probably wait until I get a new system or Windows 7 loses security support. At either of those points, I will assess again.

 

[BulletDust]

No, no, no! You're missing the point again.

If someone chooses Linux as an alternative, they don't care about the position of Windows on the Steam platform - They don't give a crap about it! They're most likely fully aware of it, as I am, but they don't care. If they cared they wouldn't be switching to Linux now would they?

As an example, I don't care for RE7, in fact I don't really care for AAA titles at all even though there are quite a few on Steam under Linux - Furthermore I don't care for VR and I see little evidence at this stage that Valve isn't going to simply loose focus on it resulting in a 3D platform fail no different to all the 3D attempts before this one. The games I like to play are mostly available under Linux and run great, that's literally all anyone switching to Linux cares about! Comparative growth when most titles could very well be classed as crap means nothing at all except in your overly simplistic point of view!

Once again, you're ignoring the only points that matter:

1. Constant gaming growth under Linux on Steam.
2. Quality titles under Linux on Steam.
3. Constant graphics driver improvements under Linux.

All of the above points are being covered. Gaming growth is constantly increasing, once again, comparing this growth to Windows when someone has already made their decision in relation to the OS of their choice means absolutely nothing at all - Nothing whatsoever, NADA!

The quality of titles under Linux on Steam appears to more than acceptable, a mix of AAA and indi titles that appear to cater to the needs of most - To raise a point once again, all of the top ten titles in the latest Steam sale were all supported under Linux with the exception of two. The other 10,000 titles available under Windows are going to be subject to masses of personal preference, many titles may barely sell at all.

Your focus on gaming is downright ridiculous! You seem to believe that everyone should make gaming their top priority when considering an OS. As can be safely assumed, not everyone thinks that way and contrary to your outlandish comments, one forum topic dedicated to gaming does not indicate that the [H] Forums are primarily gaming focused forums in any way whatsoever!

Last of all, graphics drivers are improving under Linux all the time, the Nvidia binary drivers are exceptional! So no issue there also.

You repair Windows machines, ok. You don't use them to anywhere near the capacity of what they can do however.

And what? You do?

You know nothing about me, don't even start to pretend that you do.

[Edit] I can't help but notice that you're offended by my comments on hand waving? I'm only stating the facts, you do wave your hands around and from the perspective of everyone else you do look like an idiot playing games under VR.

I dread your ignorant, missing the point entirely reply.

 

[BulletDust]

At one point people though Valve had abandoned Steam. It was not well received at first. At least a 4-5 year gap from first introduction and when it took off. Linux is the same thing, its not frozen in time. Many people tinkered with Linux 15 years ago and their understanding/opinion of it hasn't changed. Linux will plod along getting better and one day, for home users, there will be no difference in functionality or performance.

This is entirely the point I'm making - Linux is not frozen in time.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, no, no! You're missing the point again.

If someone chooses Linux as an alternative, they don't care about the position of Windows on the Steam platform - They don't give a crap about it! They're most likely fully aware of it, as I am, but they don't care. If they cared they wouldn't be switching to Linux now would they?

The title of the thread means that they might care about the position of Windows on Steam since the idea is to replace Windows with something else. If a person has Steam games that work under Windows 10 but not Linux, they have to forfeit those games unless they decide to run multiple OSes or find ways to make those game work under Windows.

The games I like to play are mostly available under Linux and run great, that's literally all anyone switching to Linux cares about!

LOL!

Once again, you're ignoring the only points that matter:

1. Constant gaming growth under Linux on Steam.
2. Quality titles under Linux on Steam.
3. Constant graphics driver improvements under Linux.

All these things are happening with Windows and at a much faster rate.

The quality of titles under Linux on Steam appears to more than acceptable, a mix of AAA and indi titles that appear to cater to the needs of most - To raise a point once again, all of the top ten titles in the latest Steam sale were all supported under Linux with the exception of two.

I thought you hated popular? In any case currently only 7 of the top 25 best sellers reported by Steam are Linux compatible.

Your focus on gaming is downright ridiculous!

LOL! On a site run by a guy that makes a living on PC gaming, how not odd.

You seem to believe that everyone should make gaming their top priority when considering an OS.

People don't consider OSes, they consider what they want to do.

As can be safely assumed, not everyone thinks that way and contrary to your outlandish comments, one forum topic dedicated to gaming does not indicate that the [H] Forums are primarily gaming focused forums in any way whatsoever!

The content on [H]ardOCP is virtually all about DIY PC gamers.

Last of all, graphics drivers are improving under Linux all the time, the Nvidia binary drivers are exceptional! So no issue there also.

And Windows as well.

[Edit] I can't help but notice that you're offended by my comments on hand waving? I'm only stating the facts, you do wave your hands around and from the perspective of everyone else you do look like an idiot playing games under VR.

Offended by about the coolest thing I've ever done on a PC, LOL! It's just as usual, you like to try to offend. The most fun I've had with a VR in my first month with it is a basketball free-throw shooting game. So lots of hand waving for no purpose except for that thing that looks and acts real to the person wearing the HMD.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is entirely the point I'm making - Linux is not frozen in time.

Neither is Windows. Indeed much of the debate of Windows post Windows 7 is change for the sake of change.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

Good lord, do you kids ever let this shit go?

 

[heatlesssun]

Good lord, do you kids ever let this shit go?

It's all in good fun. I get that Windows sucks but when it comes to PC gaming there's nothing that comes remotely close. It's just fun to debate people over something they say sucks that's without doubt inherently superior in all regards.

 

[Snowdog]

No, no, no! You're missing the point again.

If someone chooses Linux as an alternative, they don't care about the position of Windows on the Steam platform - They don't give a crap about it! They're most likely fully aware of it, as I am, but they don't care. If they cared they wouldn't be switching to Linux now would they?

As an example, I don't care for RE7, in fact I don't really care for AAA titles at all even though there are quite a few on Steam under Linux - Furthermore I don't care for VR and I see little evidence at this stage that Valve isn't going to simply loose focus on it resulting in a 3D platform fail no different to all the 3D attempts before this one. The games I like to play are mostly available under Linux and run great, that's literally all anyone switching to Linux cares about! Comparative growth when most titles could very well be classed as crap means nothing at all except in your overly simplistic point of view!

This is nothing more than epic Sour Grapes.

You can't have VR, or the all the top AAA games, so then all those things suck.

Apparently you can even see the future and know you won't like future games on Windows either, so you won't be missing those either.

 

[BulletDust]

You just can't get it, can you Heatlesssun?

Poor bugger.

In really simplistic terms. Games under Linux are growing = Good for everyone, even Windows users (even though you don't get this either)!

The rest of your argument I feel I can safely file away in that special area I was talking about earlier.

To the other individual posting (you come up to me as ignored content), give up. I blocked you as I really don't care for your childish dribble - That's saying something if I haven't stuck even Heatlesssun on my ignore list yet!

 

[BulletDust]

It's all in good fun. I get that Windows sucks but when it comes to PC gaming there's nothing that comes remotely close. It's just fun to debate people over something they say sucks that's without doubt inherently superior in all regards.

The absolutely hilarious part about that comment was that I never disputed this fact!

 

[heatlesssun]

Games under Linux are growing = Good for everyone, even Windows users (even though you don't get this either)!

Windows gaming titles in Steam since 01/01/2017 grew at a 7 to 1 rate. Take out VR titles and it's close to 5 to 1. Linux is no where good enough today to make things better for Windows gamers, especially if the "idiots waving hands in the air" is how the Linux community looks at VR. It's not about me being offended, but if that's how Linux desktop users look at VR then why would a developer waste resources on something that pro-Linux folks think is for idiots?

 

[BulletDust]

Windows gaming titles in Steam since 01/01/2017 grew at a 7 to 1 rate. Take out VR titles and it's close to 5 to 1. Linux is no where good enough today to make things better for Windows gamers, especially if the "idiots waving hands in the air" is how the Linux community looks at VR. It's not about me being offended, but if that's how Linux desktop users look at VR then why would a developer waste resources on something that pro-Linux folks think is for idiots?

I can assure you that anyone considering switching to Linux or already running Linux views this statistic as being fairly low on their priority list mate.

Basically because it's to be assumed considering the amount of time Windows has been available on the Steam platform in comparison to Linux!

Lol.

 

[heatlesssun]

I can assure you that anyone considering switching to Linux or already running Linux views this statistic as being fairly low on their priority list mate.

Lol.

If the Linux community doesn't care about these things that's fine. Desktop Linux gaming is crap at this point anyway and it's not going anywhere if this is how Linux folks overall think. You've mention time and time again about how much Windows costs. I think your numbers are insane, but still I get the point. You the one that gets offended when I mention what I've spent on stuff, the most insignificant of if on the cost of Windows. You say that many folks have no problem forfeiting SOME of their game and other software. What I think you're really saying is drop everything and redo everything under Linux. And if Linux doesn't support it, so what, it was nothing more than "idiots waving their hands in the air". McDonalds. Mic drop.

And all of that arrogance didn't do anything for anyone who might have been interested in the topic of this thread, "Alternatives to Windows 10". People who were actually interested in alternatives to Windows 10 that were Linux zealots.

 

[BulletDust]

If the Linux community doesn't care about these things that's fine. Desktop Linux gaming is crap at this point anyway and it's not going anywhere if this is how Linux folks overall think. You've mention time and time again about how much Windows costs. I think your numbers are insane, but still I get the point. You the one that gets offended when I mention what I've spent on stuff, the most insignificant of if on the cost of Windows. You say that many folks have no problem forfeiting SOME of their game and other software. What I think you're really saying is drop everything and redo everything under Linux. And if Linux doesn't support it, so what, it was nothing more than "idiots waving their hands in the air". McDonalds. Mic drop.

And all of that arrogance didn't do anything for anyone who might have been interested in the topic of this thread, "Alternatives to Windows 10". People who were actually interested in alternatives to Windows 10 that were Linux zealots.

Haha!

"Desktop Linux is crap anyway!", "idiots waving their hands in the air!", "McDonalds!"

Sounds like a little kid chucking a tantrum! Judging by the obvious specific importance of games in relation to your PC usage this may not actually be far from the truth!

Lol. Whatever mate. Geezus christ. I've never met another solitary individual with the love affair you have for Windows, literally never.

 

[Darunion]

If the Linux community doesn't care about these things that's fine. Desktop Linux gaming is crap at this point anyway and it's not going anywhere if this is how Linux folks overall think. You've mention time and time again about how much Windows costs. I think your numbers are insane, but still I get the point. You the one that gets offended when I mention what I've spent on stuff, the most insignificant of if on the cost of Windows. You say that many folks have no problem forfeiting SOME of their game and other software. What I think you're really saying is drop everything and redo everything under Linux. And if Linux doesn't support it, so what, it was nothing more than "idiots waving their hands in the air". McDonalds. Mic drop.

And all of that arrogance didn't do anything for anyone who might have been interested in the topic of this thread, "Alternatives to Windows 10". People who were actually interested in alternatives to Windows 10 that were Linux zealots.

I remember when the linux community was a very nice helpful group that was always there to lend a hand...oh wait nevermind. That 'community' has always been elitist and toxic for the most part. You would think if it was really the best thing since sliced bread, the people using it would be happier and more willing to help newbies out instead of downtalking what they do.

I mean let's be honest, we really are all just bickering about how we as consumers use our products we bought from someone else.

 

[BulletDust]

I remember when the linux community was a very nice helpful group that was always there to lend a hand...oh wait nevermind. That 'community' has always been elitist and toxic for the most part. You would think if it was really the best thing since sliced bread, the people using it would be happier and more willing to help newbies out instead of downtalking what they do.

I mean let's be honest, we really are all just bickering about how we as consumers use our products we bought from someone else.

I'm elitest?!

Lol!

I'm apparently the one running the crap OS?!

 

[heatlesssun]

"Desktop Linux is crap anyway!"

Nope, not what I said and I said it in a very specific way because I knew you'd do this.

 

[ChadD]

Windows gaming titles in Steam since 01/01/2017 grew at a 7 to 1 rate. Take out VR titles and it's close to 5 to 1. Linux is no where good enough today to make things better for Windows gamers, especially if the "idiots waving hands in the air" is how the Linux community looks at VR. It's not about me being offended, but if that's how Linux desktop users look at VR then why would a developer waste resources on something that pro-Linux folks think is for idiots?

That isn't it at all.

Yes VR is the future.

NO I will never ever ever ever buy into a closed only system with 3+ competing formats. Because I refuse to burn money.

I hope the system you bought into wins out heatle or you will have a very expensive collectors item.

Most people (including windows) users refuse to buy into VR until the manufactures of VR gear agree on a universal standard. I'm not buying the HD-DVD player of VR at $500+... neither are the majority of windows users.

For the record there 100% is VR for Linux... just not from either of the two big (blu ray HD DvD style) formats batting for early adopter money right now.

 

[Frobozz]

I'm elitest?!

Lol!

I'm apparently the one running the crap OS?!

You could do it on an AMD chip with an AMD video card and just be completely shunned for the lack of 1337.

 

[heatlesssun]

I mean let's be honest, we really are all just bickering about how we as consumers use our products we bought from someone else.

Pretty much. It's just this nonsense about Linux gaming growing. Ok yeah, sure it's growing. In relation to Windows it's getting wasted. The pro-Linux folks around here don't get a shit about gaming so it's kind of hard to imagine that Linux would do well compared to folks that give lots of shits about gaming.