Thinking About Windows 10 Alternatives

[Frobozz]

Actually it does, with an emulator. And yeah, consoles aren't personal computers, they're locked down by large companies that you don't have control over. Besides, I don't know what you're trying to prove. We're talking about operating systems with the same hardware. Your point only makes sense if you're hinting that Linux has a wealth of games that can't run on Windows.

I'm trying to prove that .. this discussion is stupid. If we want to take it to absurdity, "Windows is lame because it doesn't get all of the popular games. Ex. Mario Kart 8 and Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild."
If for some reason, gaming is your big hangup. There are other ways to get your game on so you don't miss out.

However, "locked down by a large company that you don't have control over" did make me chuckle due to the context of this thread.

 

[ChadD]

What you derisively calls "entrenchment" is simply a thriving ecosystem. They are always self reinforcing. Stronger ecosystem = more consumers buying in. More consumers buying in, brings more, and higher quality products to the ecosystem, which strengthens the ecosystem, and the positive feedback loop is complete. It is also that positive feedback loop that does indeed give Windows the best of everything, outside of some sliver edge cases (like Linux being better for developing Linux ).

It is really is hilarious after all this time, that people keep predicting the year of the Linux Desktop as right around the corner. It's long since past being a joke.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/never-year-linux-desktop/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/year-of-broken-desktop-linux-software/

Its called entrenchment because new machines have come with windows for 20 years.

Do you think if MS started selling Windows ARM for installation on Android hardware that people would buy in, even if MS was giving it away ? Or do you believe Android would rain supreme cause most people find Android does what they need and they prefer to stick with the OS the hardware manufacture actually warranties.

And again no Linux doesn't just do Linux development better. It does web development better... it does server development better... As for windows development, if the work is being done in C Linux is better and many windows developers aren't actually working in Windows crazy I know but its true. Unless of course your working on UWP software... but hell no one does that anyway.

I know to someone not working in the field it seems insane to think a software developer wouldn't be working on a different system then the one they are targeting.... man think about it why exactly do you think MS added a Linux subsystem to Windows 10. (it wasn't so I could make the cowsay on friends computers really it wasn't)
https://arstechnica.com/information...ft-needed-to-make-windows-run-linux-software/

 

[tetris42]

I'm trying to prove that .. this discussion is stupid. If we want to take it to absurdity, "Windows is lame because it doesn't get all of the popular games. Ex. Mario Kart 8 and Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild."
If for some reason, gaming is your big hangup. There are other ways to get your game on so you don't miss out.

However, "locked down by a large company that you don't have control over" did make me chuckle due to the context of this thread.

Well if I can do games AND programs I want to run, that goes back again, to why run Linux?

And yeah, the locked down part is the whole reason for looking for Win10 alternatives.

 

[ChadD]

Actually it does, with an emulator. And yeah, consoles aren't personal computers, they're locked down by large companies that you don't have control over. Besides, I don't know what you're trying to prove. We're talking about operating systems with the same hardware. Your point only makes sense if you're hinting that Linux has a wealth of games that can't run on Windows.

Come on now I can run most of your windows software in Wine... I think his point is valid.

GAMES are not typical software. Since Sony and MS started a Pi$$ing war years back with developers... buying themselves this exclusive and that exclusive. With MS in the back ground paying developers to be a "PC game" and stay off of OSX (and no doubt Linux). The entire gaming industry is a bunch of closed systems competing for developer titles. PS4 and Xbone have almost the same hardware as well... yet there are exclusives. I'm not sure I may have just made your point that windows gets all the good exclusives... just like you should buy PS4 so you can play the better games. Anyway his point was valid. Different ecosystems aren't going to have the same games.

 

[BulletDust]

So DeathFromBelow espouses the wonders of Linux gaming because 1/3rd of his Steam library has Linux clients and you've created numerous threads on the subject Linux gaming. Then when someone compares the growth Linux games to Windows games on Steam, "Not really" is your answer in a thread comparing Windows 10 to alternatives? Seriously?

You've hit the nail on the head!

Do you know why such a fact isn't important? Because everyone's needs relating to computing is different! Every individuals preference relating to gaming is different! You are very much a minority of a minority!

So the way it stands at the moment:

1: If you believe Heatlesssun is correct and think [H] is a gaming forum first and foremost and you enjoy playing the games our resident gaming elite believe makes computing necessary and worthwhile than please, by all means, run whatever OS you honestly believe gives you the greatest gaming experience.

2. If you need Adobe products or the worlds least compatible Office suite made by Microsoft and believe ISO standards are just rough benchmarks drawn in the sand, than please, by all means run the OS that gives you the best professional experience.

2.5: If you think Heatlesssun knows what his talking about, please, run Windows.

3: If you believe your PC is yours, if you want more control over your OS than Windows can offer, if you expect your OS to respect your privacy, if you enjoy playing the ever growing catalogue of gaming titles available under Linux, if you're capable of adapting to alternate software that's suitable for the bulk of users out there with the exception of the individuals that believe that as professionals they must have nothing but Adobe products (something I hear is becoming a little more complicated payment wise than it should be) - Than perhaps Linux is an option for yourself.

4: If you think I'm trying to convince you to use Linux, please, run Windows.

There you go! Done!

 

[tetris42]

Come on now I can run most of your windows software in Wine... I think his point is valid.

GAMES are not typical software. Since Sony and MS started a Pi$$ing war years back with developers... buying themselves this exclusive and that exclusive. With MS in the back ground paying developers to be a "PC game" and stay off of OSX (and no doubt Linux). The entire gaming industry is a bunch of closed systems competing for developer titles. PS4 and Xbone have almost the same hardware as well... yet there are exclusives. I'm not sure I may have just made your point that windows gets all the good exclusives... just like you should buy PS4 so you can play the better games. Anyway his point was valid. Different ecosystems aren't going to have the same games.

I hate exclusives as much as anyone. In fact I think it's a travesty that MS has bought developers to release soley for Xbox and keep titles OFF Windows. It doesn't get any more backwards than that. As for buying a PS4, you keep mentioning this, I'm not even sure if you're joking. I like PC gaming because I have a higher resolution, framerate, customize controls if I need to, have better antialiasing, just a better experience all-round. Plus I CAN NOT aim with a gamepad in a shooter, it's just a non-option for me. Except for more casual stuff, going to a console would be a real step down for me in most scenarios. Don't misunderstand me, consoles have good exclusives coming out on them I would want to play and would love to see on PC, but they gimp the rest of the experience so much it makes me not even want to touch the platform.

Finally, the point still doesn't stand because as backward as the situation is, Xbox and PS4 does actually have titles unique to their platforms. I can only think of real minimalistic games that are exclusive Linux and don't run on Windows. You're ONLY giving up stuff game-wise, it's not a trade-off. I'm not sure you're gaining anything, aside from Tux Racer and some barebones Quake 3 clones.

 

[BulletDust]

I hate exclusives as much as anyone. In fact I think it's a travesty that MS has bought developers to release soley for Xbox and keep titles OFF Windows. It doesn't get any more backwards than that. As for buying a PS4, you keep mentioning this, I'm not even sure if you're joking. I like PC gaming because I have a higher resolution, framerate, customize controls if I need to, have better antialiasing, just a better experience all-round. Plus I CAN NOT aim with a gamepad in a shooter, it's just a non-option for me. Except for more casual stuff, going to a console would be a real step down for me in most scenarios. Don't misunderstand me, consoles have good exclusives coming out on them I would want to play and would love to see on PC, but they gimp the rest of the experience so much it makes me not even want to touch the platform.

Finally, the point still doesn't stand because as backward as the situation is, Xbox and PS4 does actually have titles unique to their platforms. I can only think of real minimalistic games that are exclusive Linux and don't run on Windows. You're ONLY giving up stuff game-wise, it's not a trade-off. I'm not sure you're gaining anything, aside from Tux Racer and some barebones Quake 3 clones.

Personally, I'm happy to let go of a few titles in order to give MS the flick. If you believe you must have Windows to play the latest and greatest than it's obvious there's no other choice for you. That's what's so great about being an individual, you can make your own decisions and no one else should give the slightest hoot.

 

[tetris42]

Personally, I'm happy to let go of a few titles in order to give MS the flick. If you believe you must have Windows to play the latest and greatest than it's obvious there's no other choice for you. That's what's so great about being an individual, you can make your own decisions and no one else should give the slightest hoot.

You're obfuscating what was being discussed. The point was people were trying to present Linux as just another ecosystem for gaming, with its pros and cons. Except I'm saying when talking about gaming compatibility, there's no pros. I can play basically every game I can on Linux also on Windows, plus a bunch more. At least on consoles there are some games you can't play elsewhere. Being an individual and having your own tastes has nothing to do with invalid comparisons. I can enjoy tacos as an individual. I can also say the moon is made out of cheese. In one of these cases, I'm still objectively wrong, regardless of my tastes.

 

[ChadD]

I hate exclusives as much as anyone. In fact I think it's a travesty that MS has bought developers to release soley for Xbox and keep titles OFF Windows. It doesn't get any more backwards than that. As for buying a PS4, you keep mentioning this, I'm not even sure if you're joking. I like PC gaming because I have a higher resolution, framerate, customize controls if I need to, have better antialiasing, just a better experience all-round. Plus I CAN NOT aim with a gamepad in a shooter, it's just a non-option for me. Except for more casual stuff, going to a console would be a real step down for me in most scenarios. Don't misunderstand me, consoles have good exclusives coming out on them I would want to play and would love to see on PC, but they gimp the rest of the experience so much it makes me not even want to touch the platform.

Finally, the point still doesn't stand because as backward as the situation is, Xbox and PS4 does actually have titles unique to their platforms. I can only think of real minimalistic games that are exclusive Linux and don't run on Windows. You're ONLY giving up stuff game-wise, it's not a trade-off. I'm not sure you're gaining anything, aside from Tux Racer and some barebones Quake 3 clones.

Your gaining the satisfaction of saying fuck you MS and Sony and your buying off of developers. The developers willing to be free and release for whatever platform has paying customers (which Linux is one) I WILL and have purchased their games (even if I didn't really care about them all that much) I would never have played bioshock inf... honest its just not my kinda of game. I bought it because they supported Linux, heck I even enjoyed it.

I know now I sound like that stereotypical Linux nerd... power to the people.

Really though I have always been a gamer going all the way back to tape backups of C64 games. However what has happened the last number of years in the industry in general has disgusted me to the point that I can honestly say that's it I'm out. Not that I have had to be... there are plenty of good developers. As we have said there is some fantastic Indie games... and yes most of them you can get for Windows as well if you can discover them through all the noise. (shovelware as heatle called it) There is also a handful of great AAA and AA games that have gotten direct Linux support or handed off to a few great Porting companies (as is the case with the Civ games). I'm loyal to those companies and send my gaming budget their way.

As I have said all a long though... if you have games you really wanna play and they are Windows exclusives hey have at it. If you can help it don't be stupid enough to buy them from the Windows store or something silly. Of course by all means I'm not going to argue that those games don't run well right now today in Windows as they do, and sure they are often exclusive because MS is run by a bunch of Tools. (at this point in the thread I am just going to be surely)

I do hope that more and more people who love games will see things the way I have come to. We are a minority but I really hope its a growing one. The more of us that vote with our $ ... the more likely things will change for the better. (for everyone)

 

[ChadD]

You're obfuscating what was being discussed. The point was people were trying to present Linux as just another ecosystem for gaming, with its pros and cons. Except I'm saying when talking about gaming compatibility, there's no pros. I can play basically every game I can on Linux also on Windows, plus a bunch more. At least on consoles there are some games you can't play elsewhere. Being an individual and having your own tastes has nothing to do with invalid comparisons. I can enjoy tacos as an individual. I can also say the moon is made out of cheese. In one of these cases, I'm still objectively wrong, regardless of my tastes.

I knew I was making your point earlier... bad me.

Yes Windows is going to have everything Linux is going to have in terms of games (for the most part). That is because its an open system where its developers are not smacked around until they refuse to support other systems. If you make a great Linux game why not publish it for Windows and Mac OS. (which most of them do) Most of what keeps some of the larger AAA games off of Linux is back room politics... and yes MS is to blame for that 100%. Almost all of the AAA games released every year are using the same handful of engines that all support multi platform compiling a game using say the Unreal engine for Linux ins't a year long project or something the tools are all included and there is no recoding or anything crazy needed. (and frankly half of them are written with the primary target being the FreeBSD running PS4... and I mention the PS4 so much because it burns the backsides of Windows heads. As they have to admit MS has lost the console wars even if they can't admit it... and developers prefer working with FreeBSD and PSGL (Sonys PS OpenGL fork), for some reason that drives them nuts I know it. )

Hey its a good business move for MS as long as they don't get caught going to far and end up in court... luckily for them Linux being open source and owned by no one there isn't really anyone to offend... sue them or lobby GOV to squash the behaviour. haha If Apple cared about games I guess they could push back a bit.. but they don't.

 

[BulletDust]

You're obfuscating what was being discussed. The point was people were trying to present Linux as just another ecosystem for gaming, with its pros and cons. Except I'm saying when talking about gaming compatibility, there's no pros. I can play basically every game I can on Linux also on Windows, plus a bunch more. At least on consoles there are some games you can't play elsewhere. Being an individual and having your own tastes has nothing to do with invalid comparisons. I can enjoy tacos as an individual. I can also say the moon is made out of cheese. In one of these cases, I'm still objectively wrong, regardless of my tastes.

No I'm not.

I'm fully aware of the point you're attempting to force by highlighting Windows position in relation to gaming, the point you're missing is the fact you have to run Windows in order to do that and that fact doesn't sit well with many of us.

Windows position in relation to gaming isn't rocket science. Years on market, forced installs on literally every brand name PC and laptop sold = A preferred platform for developers. Windows is popular due to what most perceive as a lack of options, once again, that by no means indicates that Windows is the better OS. To hammer a comparison home that Heatlesssun will get really offended over as he works for Microsoft - McDonalds is popular, it nails that hump in the bell curve. It's not the best, it's not the worst, it makes great $$. That by no means indicates in any way whatsoever than Windows is a good OS or Linux is a bad OS.

If you think the moon is made of cheese you're an idiot, I'm not an idiot. Linux is growing, that's a fact that can't be debated as the evidence proves it. Gaming under Linux is growing, that's another point that can't be debated as the evidence proves it. Cross platform software and driver support is improving, once again, a point that is proven by facts and can't be debated.

These are literally, the only points I give a stuff about. I don't care where Windows is in relation to Steam, I don't care how fast Windows is growing in relation to Steam. Why? Because Windows has been around for so long and forced on the consumer for so long that it's obvious that Windows is going to be ahead in such statistics.

Common sense, facts that should be known by literally everyone. But they're facts that don't concern every consumer out there as personal tastes vary greatly.

Why are you wrong to claim that you enjoy taco's? Are you weak, submissive, do you feel the need to be accepted by your peers?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with claiming that you like taco's. We're all individuals, we all have different needs and tastes. So when 46% (or whatever it is) of gaming titles under Steam are supported by Linux and I only enjoy ~20% of the titles avaliable under Windows and 15% of them are supported under Linux but I get to control my PC that way I want to control it, I still own my own PC and don't have to be forced down the path Microsoft want's me to follow - Well! As a strong willed individual that's willing to let 5% of kiddies games slide and can achieve everything I need to achieve under Linux (I've already provided evidence of the software I depend on and it's availability cross platform, or more than suitable alternatives given my needs, so don't dare assume that I'm exaggerating anything here!), guess what?! Piss off Microsoft!

As an individual, that's what I choose. Furthermore, I see nothing to state that I'm not the only one to think in such a way.

If Windows works for yourself, ManOfGod, Heatlesssun or anyone else - That's simply awesome! It doesn't work for everyone be it in relation to security, functionality, GUI, control, updating and the possible (but realistic) loss of privacy or morality. Therefore, in a thread titled "Windows 10 Alternatives", for many Linux may be a realistic alternative and what suits you has nothing at all to do with their decision.

If you need Windows - Use Windows. By claiming that everything is available under Windows so you should just use Windows, you have to admit, you're at least partially missing the point of a Windows 10 alternative thread completely.

Bear in mind, I still have three Windows PC's here, two of which are Windows 10. My daughter uses one, I hardly ever use the other and the the third is a Windows Server development machine that also acts as a DHCP server.

 

[Deleted member 245375]

 

[BulletDust]

An excellent YouTube video relating exactly to the topic at hand, it'll be interesting to see if the Windows users actually watch it.

 

[heatlesssun]

And you completely ignored what I said and the points made. You keep going back to "Windows does everything the best" which not only isn't true, it's not even totally relevant. The ONLY reason Windows has as much support as it does is because of entrenchment. It's been basically the only OS pushed to people for a couple of decades and for damn good reason for a large chunk of that time. However, if most people can actually get by without Windows, what happens when people do decide to do so? All it takes is a small start and that start is possible now. The only thing that needs to happen to bust the effective Windows monopoly is a start of people migrating away from it. That's literally all that needs to be done in order for more resources to be devoted to other OSes. If anything, this is already happening with so many people using phones and other devices as primary devices. Only a very tiny percentage of these devices run any sort of MS OS. The shift has already started. How this ends up playing out is anyone's guess but I don't think it's going to be in MS's favor in the long run.

I didn't say "Windows does everything best." I said it has by far the best hardware and software support for client desktops/x86 devices. One can by Windows 10 devices that are anywhere from a $50 8" tablets to very expensive gaming workstations and all sorts of devices between will support for all sorts of software.

The closest thing to an edge case that you've called out that has any real impact is gaming. There is nowhere near the support for Linux for gaming. However, the support has grown a lot. You simply can't deny that. Unless that support totally dries up you could be seeing a change. Look at the possible abandonment of DirectX or at least shift away from DirectX. I'd personally love to see it. I hate how limited MS makes DirectX and I abhor the shit MS pulled back in the day with regards to DirectX vs OpenGL. Simply put, if Vulcan does end up taking off you may very well see a shift towards more gaming support for Linux due to the easier portability between OSes due to that lack of the DirectX ball and chain.

I never said Linux gaming wasn't getting new titles but in comparison to Windows, since this is a thread about Windows 10 alternatives thus the comparison has to be made, Windows title growth is much higher than Linux.

You should also stop trying to use "but the games I do play on Windows keeps me shackled to Windows" as a vindication for your points. Instead you should be worried about that with regards to your love for MS and Windows. All it takes is for me to stop playing games to switch to Windows. I'm not the only person like that. With how much you love Windows and MS your time would be better put to use petitioning MS to stop being dumbasses and start listening to the consumers rather than celebrating how people are shackled to Windows and MS and in effect rubbing their nose in it. You are your own worst enemy with regards to your blind praise of MS and disdain for practically everything non-MS and those who don't follow the MS line. I personally find your attitude and holier than thou arguments distasteful which automatically makes me want to ignore anything you say and I'm obviously not the only one.

This is the same stuff that pro-desktop Linux folks have been going on and on about for 20 years when most people just want to use the hardware and software they want to use. Some of you guys talk incessantly about "love for Windows". And then you bash everything that a person uses that isn't supported under Linux. Nice.

 

[ManofGod]

I said it before and I will say it again because it is true: Until Linux has an all encompassing single distro that makes it easy to support, Linux on the Desktop will never take off. One of the biggest reasons that Windows is the mainstay on the desktop is the familiarity for customers and old software support that Linux or Mac just cannot touch.

 

[Snowdog]

Its called entrenchment because new machines have come with windows for 20 years.

Do you think if MS started selling Windows ARM for installation on Android hardware that people would buy in, even if MS was giving it away ? Or do you believe Android would rain supreme cause most people find Android does what they need and they prefer to stick with the OS the hardware manufacture actually warranties.

Actually. Thanks for phrasing it that way, it helps me point out how you are wrong on your assumptions about "entrenchment".

This is NOT about what OS is forced/pre-installed on buyer machines. It is about people Wanting to be part of that thriving ecosystem.

Because Microsoft did start selling Windows for ARM. But they didn't offer it as an alternative to install on Android hardware.

Instead it was a forced onto new machines; Pre-Installed. Just like standard Windows. You know the part that you think makes for success.

Except this new ARM Windows, called Windows RT, pre-installed on millions of machines. Failed completely, it was a total flop.

A total flop despite being pre-installed on machines. These machines didn't even have the option of another OS. By you logic it should have succeeded.

A total flop I predicted the moment I heard of Windows RT. Because it was obvious that the Ecosystem is what people want.

What is funny, is I saw diehard MS advocates (not sure if Heatless did) argue that all "average" people really need is a Web Browser and an Office suite. So they predicted success.

Both Linux Advocates today, and MS Windows RT Advocates then, underestimate the value of a strong ecosystem.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

You're obfuscating what was being discussed. The point was people were trying to present Linux as just another ecosystem for gaming, with its pros and cons. Except I'm saying when talking about gaming compatibility, there's no pros. I can play basically every game I can on Linux also on Windows, plus a bunch more. At least on consoles there are some games you can't play elsewhere. Being an individual and having your own tastes has nothing to do with invalid comparisons. I can enjoy tacos as an individual. I can also say the moon is made out of cheese. In one of these cases, I'm still objectively wrong, regardless of my tastes.

It's simply being presented as a viable alternative. Nothing more or less. How does that in any way compare to a nonsense statement like 'the moon is made of cheese?'

Of course the issue goes beyond gaming. I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had declared the desktop 'done' and released a subscription product like 7 for desktops. Maybe have it fall back to an ad-supported free mode after the sub lapses. Provide continued hardware support and some compelling new features/games over time to encourage home users to maintain a sub. Instead, Microsoft chose to release a phablet product with a terrible UI, data mining, ads, and fewer features... For the same price.

Windows 10 is unacceptable and Windows 7 wont last forever. Linux on the desktop has reached the point that I honestly think most people around here could switch and actually be comfortable with it.

 

[heatlesssun]

An excellent YouTube video relating exactly to the topic at hand, it'll be interesting to see if the Windows users actually watch it.

LOL! Saw this last night. He spent more time talking about a Windows 10 torrent that has malware in it and how that's so bad for hardcore gamers though hardcore gamers should stick to Windows? Except that should because Linux is technically superior in his opinion? I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. I just like to play games and most of the time I don't even finish them. I just enjoy the experience or variety of different games and I typically stick to single player, I just don't have the skills for online.

The thing about gaming and DIY PCs, if you build a great gaming PC, it's going to be pretty much a great everything PC from a hardware perspective. A DIY PC hardcore gamer who is build a high end rig typically is going to have a lot of uses for it besides gaming.

 

[heatlesssun]

What is funny, is I saw diehard MS advocates (though I don't think Heatless did) argue that all "average" people really need is a Web Browser and an Office suite. So they predicted success.

Both Linux Advocates today, and MS Windows RT Advocates then, underestimate the value of a strong ecosystem.

So much this. I didn't expect much from Windows RT because why buy a Windows RT device when you could be a device that did all of that AND supported Win32 for the same price.

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows 10 is unacceptable and Windows 7 wont last forever. Linux on the desktop has reached the point that I honestly think most people around here could switch and actually be comfortable with it.

Windows 10 is going to be the next migration step of Windows desktop enterprise users, we're moving to it before 2020. And I'm not at all comfortable with losing support for thousands of dollars in software and hardware. Not saying the hardware wouldn't work, but not all the features would be supported, specially for something that's got hardware to push games.

 

[ChadD]

Actually. Thanks for phrasing it that way, it helps me point out how you are wrong on your assumptions about "entrenchment".

This is NOT about what OS is forced/pre-installed on buyer machines. It is about people Wanting to be part of that thriving ecosystem.

Because Microsoft did start selling Windows for ARM. But they didn't offer it as an alternative to install on Android hardware.

Instead it was a forced onto new machines; Pre-Installed. Just like standard Windows. You know the part that you think makes for success.

Except this new ARM Windows, called Windows RT, pre-installed on millions of machines. Failed completely, it was a total flop.

A total flop despite being pre-installed on machines. These machines didn't even have the option of another OS. By you logic it should have succeeded.

A total flop I predicted the moment I heard of Windows RT. Because it was obvious that the Ecosystem is what people want.

What is funny, is I saw diehard MS advocates (though I don't think Heatless did) argue that all "average" people really need is a Web Browser and an Office suite. So they predicted success.

Both Linux Advocates today, and MS Windows RT Advocates then, underestimate the value of a strong ecosystem.

There are 2 major things different however;

1) Windows RT was vastly inferior to Android. I guess my point is weaker in light of the simple fact that Windows RT is / was terrible. My point would have been better if Windows RT was clearly better then Android and people still wouldn't bother. lol The fact that those devices didn't sell... mostly had to do with that simple fact. Windows doesn't really make a fantastic mobile platform.

2) When windows started shipping years back as the default OS there wasn't any other real options. The only previous OS really shipping in volume... was another MS OS. (MS DOS). The first versions of windows that shipped with machines was simply a shell or I guess you could say desktop environment (like Gnome or KDE ect) that ran on top of MSDOS. They had no real main stream competitors. Hey credit where its due MS invented the idea of the OS as a product. No one including IBM saw the software as the product previous to MS. Even after IBM shipped millions of MSDOS running computers they still didn't get it and thought they where more or less hiring MS to work with them on OS/2. Oh the folly.

I think my point still stands though. MS is going to have a hard time ever cracking into the mobile markets because well the other guys where there first >.< Its not that I don't believe MS COULD perhaps come up with a far better mobile solution. I think the issue for them is simple... even if they do. It still won't be enough to break a cycle at this point. People buy Iphones and Samsungs... they know Android they know ios they are comfy and no one likes change.

MS at this point would need something revolutionary to break into that market. Thing is its not 1985 anymore. The innovations on the hardware front are happening with companies that want to control every bit of it including the software. Samsung or any other hardware company spending billions on hardware R&D are not going to come to MS and say hey we developed this fantastic new X or Y gadget can you create software for it. (Like IBM did) They are going to use the free to use Linux kernel that is superior in every way and create their own solutions. (they are the companies spending millions helping code Linux at this point for a reason) Androids openness is what ensures any great developments in the future will end up on Android, and likely first. Long term outlook for Windows is bleak imo cause we all agree desktops are diminishing. They won't go away any time soon, still I think its crazy to assume they won't at some point. I do believe the desktop doesn't have another 20 years. Mobile hardware is simply catching up too fast. Perhaps AMDs Zen pushes performance a bit more and that extends the life of the desktop, still it may make no difference. In the next few years high end mobile hardware is going to be more then capable of doing everything you need... and simply interfacing with your monitor when you need to sit at a desk. The hardware is already there for those types of solutions for most people, another 4-5 generations of mobile CPUs and GPUs and they will be good enough to even start pushing game consoles ect.

Hey Nintendos switch is going to look quaint in a few years to everyone. Lots of people laugh a bit now... the Xbox the PS have X more power ect ect. Still if The switch sells hard... I'll tell you right now its the end of the desktop. If it sells like the wii MS is in serious trouble. Not with the xbox but with their core windows business... the idea it will put in peoples heads should scare the crap out of them. Google or Apple or Samsung is going to put the exact same features into a phone, juice it up with a GPU on par with the switch and give people the same functionality. Chrome cast is already a thing... when one of those companies starts marketing a fast phone with games + simple monitor / tv dongle and optional game controllers and wireless Keyboard with a laptop trackpads ect. The desktop decline will accelerate. Everything most people use desktops for will be covered by such a solution, even gaming well enough to cover most peoples needs.

NOTE... somehow I have now pulled Nintendo into this thread. lol

 

[Snowdog]

There are 2 major things different however;

1) Windows RT was vastly inferior to Android. I guess my point is weaker in light of the simple fact that Windows RT is / was terrible. My point would have been better if Windows RT was clearly better then Android and people still wouldn't bother. lol The fact that those devices didn't sell... mostly had to do with that simple fact. Windows doesn't really make a fantastic mobile platform.

Only because RT lacks an ecosystem. Which is my point.

MS at this point would need something revolutionary to break into that market. Thing is its not 1985 anymore. l

I agree. MS has a relatively negligible phone ecosystem. Strong Ecosystems rule until something revolutionary disrupts. I fully recognize that. In fact it is pretty much my point.

The funny thing of course, is that you only recognize it when you see it working in your favor.

In your view:
MS can't possible break into Androids strong Ecosystem.
But Linux can break into the Windows strong Ecosystem.

The difference is mainly in your Bias, not in reality.

I just see the strong ecosystem ruling until a revolutionary disruption.

 

[ChadD]

In your view:
MS can't possible break into Androids strong Ecosystem.
But Linux can break into the Windows strong Ecosystem.

The difference is mainly in your Bias, not in reality.

I just see the strong ecosystem ruling until a revolutionary disruption.

I've never claimed the Linux on the desktop was going to ever rule.

It won't.

I have claimed its not relevant. The desktop is dying... and I don't see anyway to stay its death forever.

Windows will go away and MS will be diminished greatly as a result.

Laptops and 2 in 1s are not desktops. Most users don't care if they have MacOS or Windows really they both get what they need done done. Chrome books get the job done for most people... not all because for the most part as a system they are under powered and require connected use plenty of things (which less and less is an issue) . With that market MS could see things go south pretty quickly. When google or their manufacturers start shipping some higher end chrome books running the newer chrome OS that supports androids software market it may be shocking to see how fast they proliferate. (we'll see I guess if that happens).

Seeing as we are talking about Windows Alternatives. Yes Linux is going to be the go to at some point not because it will replace windows really. It may end up being the only real option we have at some point over the ChromeOS that came on our machine. (lol I know call me a crazy now)

 

[tetris42]

I knew I was making your point earlier... bad me.

Yes Windows is going to have everything Linux is going to have in terms of games (for the most part). That is because its an open system where its developers are not smacked around until they refuse to support other systems. If you make a great Linux game why not publish it for Windows and Mac OS. (which most of them do) Most of what keeps some of the larger AAA games off of Linux is back room politics... and yes MS is to blame for that 100%. Almost all of the AAA games released every year are using the same handful of engines that all support multi platform compiling a game using say the Unreal engine for Linux ins't a year long project or something the tools are all included and there is no recoding or anything crazy needed. (and frankly half of them are written with the primary target being the FreeBSD running PS4... and I mention the PS4 so much because it burns the backsides of Windows heads. As they have to admit MS has lost the console wars even if they can't admit it... and developers prefer working with FreeBSD and PSGL (Sonys PS OpenGL fork), for some reason that drives them nuts I know it. )

Hey its a good business move for MS as long as they don't get caught going to far and end up in court... luckily for them Linux being open source and owned by no one there isn't really anyone to offend... sue them or lobby GOV to squash the behaviour. haha If Apple cared about games I guess they could push back a bit.. but they don't.

I'd say Sony is just as much at fault for keeping titles off the PC. I mean hell, there have been multiple games that were originally announced for PC, then PC + PS3/4, then finally a Playstation exclusive because Sony bought them off. I've heard the reason Microsoft originally came up with the Xbox was because Sony was shutting them out of the console market completely, though I don't know how much truth there is to that. I see Microsoft as being more of a travesty though because they're used resources to halt usage ON THEIR OWN PRODUCT. So if you have been gaming on Windows, for over a decade they've rewarded that by paying money to develop titles exclusively for Xbox and keep them OFF Windows. I'm glad they've finally reversed that stance, but christ, took them long enough. I see the PS4 and Xbox One both as equally unhelpful in regards to PC gaming. A victory for the Xbox doesn't help Windows gamers any, and a victory for the PS4 doesn't help Linux gamers either. In both cases, if the titles never come to PC, it's like you said, just politics keeping titles off the platform either way.

 

[ChadD]

I'd say Sony is just as much at fault for keeping titles off the PC. I mean hell, there have been multiple games that were originally announced for PC, then PC + PS3/4, then finally a Playstation exclusive because Sony bought them off. I've heard the reason Microsoft originally came up with the Xbox was because Sony was shutting them out of the console market completely, though I don't know how much truth there is to that. I see Microsoft as being more of a travesty though because they're used resources to halt usage ON THEIR OWN PRODUCT. So if you have been gaming on Windows, for over a decade they've rewarded that by paying money to develop titles exclusively for Xbox and keep them OFF Windows. I'm glad they've finally reversed that stance, but christ, took them long enough. I see the PS4 and Xbox One both as equally unhelpful in regards to PC gaming. A victory for the Xbox doesn't help Windows gamers any, and a victory for the PS4 doesn't help Linux gamers either. In both cases, if the titles never come to PC, it's like you said, just politics keeping titles off the platform either way.

You are completely right of course. They are both evil. I only use the PS4 = FreeBSD so people get it... it isn't a technical issue, its a companies being dicks issue.

I mean I blame Sony a bit less as they have no real stake in the desktop gaming market. So what they may have done paying off developers makes some sense. MS doing the same and keeping things off the desktop... seems worse.

No doubt its the reality of the gaming industry. Which helps some of us justify our switch to Linux even for games. If a game does come to Linux it means that developer isn't playing ball, which earns them my $.

 

[Snowdog]

I've never claimed the Linux on the desktop was going to ever rule.

I have claimed its not relevant. The desktop is dying... and I don't see anyway to stay its death forever.

If the desktop is irrelevant, and dying. Why have you spent 12 pages arguing for Linux on Desktop.

Those things really don't make sense.

Seeing as we are talking about Windows Alternatives. Yes Linux is going to be the go to at some point not because it will replace windows really. It may end up being the only real option we have at some point over the ChromeOS that came on our machine. (lol I know call me a crazy now)

So Windows is going to die, because the desktop OS market it serves is dying.

But after Windows/Desktops are dead, luckily we will have Linux for that market, that no longer exists.

You really make no sense at all. Unfortunately this is all too common in Linux apologists.

 

[ManofGod]

If the desktop is irrelevant, and dying. Why have you spent 12 pages arguing for Linux on Desktop.

Those things really don't make sense.




So Windows is going to die, because the desktop OS market it serves is dying.

But after Windows/Desktops are dead, luckily we will have Linux for that market, that no longer exists.

You really make no sense at all. Unfortunately this is all too common in Linux apologists.

Yeah, but I literally did laugh out loud at what he wrote.

 

[ChadD]

If the desktop is irrelevant, and dying. Why have you spent 12 pages arguing for Linux on Desktop.

Those things really don't make sense.

So Windows is going to die, because the desktop OS market it serves is dying.

But after Windows/Desktops are dead, luckily we will have Linux for that market, that no longer exists.

You really make no sense at all. Unfortunately this is all too common in Linux apologists.

No what I am saying makes perfect sense.

Linux survives the end of desktop sales... Windows does not.

Microsoft is going to take another stab at getting into the mobile market no doubt... because they are not completely stupid. If they don't find away in fast their dead in the consumer space its that simple.

For Ms to continue selling Windows... they HAVE to continue shipping on the systems people are buying.

For Linux to continue it does not have to do that. As long as hardware of some kind ships be it Apple or Android or Chrome... we will be able to install Linux on it. There is no machine anywhere that hasn't given way to someone who wants it to run Linux.

At one time PC sales where over 300 million a year Its estimated that dropped to around 220-240 million in 2016 depending on which numbers you count. At the current rate of decline they will drop under 200 million with in the next year or two... and if that continues they may well drop under 100 million with in 4 years. That is assuming some fantastic mobile hybrid doesn't eat into those numbers faster. I know we can argue people just aren't upgrading ect ect... but I think people need to get real. Think about the people you know and ask yourself does this person really use a desktop at all ? Many people I know don't own one anymore or have one that they rarely if ever use... if their phone dies though you would think someone kidnapped one of their children or something.

If PC sales drop under 100 million units a year world wide... how long do you think companies continue developing and supporting windows only or at all ? I think you can already make a fair argument that more development is being done on Android and iOS then any other platform.

If 90% of the machines people use ship with Android, Chrome, and Mac / iOS.... We can run Linux, can you run Windows ?

So as I always say get you some Linux experience sooner rather then later so you don't feel out of place in 5 or 6 years when no one is shipping computers. Sure we may be able to buy parts and build our own for awhile... but if that comes to pass its going to be come a niche thing (more then it already is anyway) and the software isn't going to follow us. Which will make Linux the only viable alternative for DIY projects.

Just go with my crystal ball reading....

 

[heatlesssun]

Linux survives the end of desktop sales... Windows does not.

Which means that Linux wouldn't be replacing Windows on desktops since there are no desktops in this scenario.

 

[ChadD]

Which means that Linux wouldn't be replacing Windows on desktops since there are no desktops in this scenario.

Completely true.

This thread is about current alternatives to Windows.... Linux is one and a good one.

If we are arguing about the future as we seem to be. Yes the desktop is doomed I don't even think that is debatable anymore. The only question is when. Is it soon as I argue... or is it 20 years out. None of us can see the future, just guess at trends. In my mind a few interesting hardware pieces hit the market and things happen fast, as happened with the iphone when it hit. How long did dumb phones last after the iphone hit ? Sure you can still buy them... just like you will likely always be able to buy a desktop of some kind or at least a dumb workstation. However the days of companies pushing high end desktops to consumers will be over... just like you won't find a cell phone company making a flag ship dumb phone like a razr anymore.

The market is changing. Yes the year of Linux on the desktop will never happen. No Linux as most people recognize Linux will never be the main stream OS of choice. That isn't to say windows will always rule. It won't... it has already been toppled The majority of "computing" done by the masses at this point is done in Android. That is only going to grow at the expense of desktop computing.

Sure people will always want bigger screens ect... but does that really mean desktops ? or even laptops anymore ? I don't think it does, Chrome cast is here.... and at some point hardware and software will get to a point where ya for word processing ect why wouldn't you just use your phone.

In my mind its just like the days before the iphone hit. The hardware and software is around to do what I am talking about... just like smart phones where shipping for 5 years before the iphone. It just takes one smash hit consumer product to make things go from 0 to 60 in a short time. That product is coming cause the hardware is there right now... it just waiting a company to package it well. Google or Apple one of them is going to do it and it is going to be bad for MS. That my humble opinion on what is likely to happen.

 

[ManofGod]

No what I am saying makes perfect sense.

Linux survives the end of desktop sales... Windows does not.

Microsoft is going to take another stab at getting into the mobile market no doubt... because they are not completely stupid. If they don't find away in fast their dead in the consumer space its that simple.

For Ms to continue selling Windows... they HAVE to continue shipping on the systems people are buying.

For Linux to continue it does not have to do that. As long as hardware of some kind ships be it Apple or Android or Chrome... we will be able to install Linux on it. There is no machine anywhere that hasn't given way to someone who wants it to run Linux.

At one time PC sales where over 300 million a year Its estimated that dropped to around 220-240 million in 2016 depending on which numbers you count. At the current rate of decline they will drop under 200 million with in the next year or two... and if that continues they may well drop under 100 million with in 4 years. That is assuming some fantastic mobile hybrid doesn't eat into those numbers faster. I know we can argue people just aren't upgrading ect ect... but I think people need to get real. Think about the people you know and ask yourself does this person really use a desktop at all ? Many people I know don't own one anymore or have one that they rarely if ever use... if their phone dies though you would think someone kidnapped one of their children or something.

If PC sales drop under 100 million units a year world wide... how long do you think companies continue developing and supporting windows only or at all ? I think you can already make a fair argument that more development is being done on Android and iOS then any other platform.

If 90% of the machines people use ship with Android, Chrome, and Mac / iOS.... We can run Linux, can you run Windows ?

So as I always say get you some Linux experience sooner rather then later so you don't feel out of place in 5 or 6 years when no one is shipping computers. Sure we may be able to buy parts and build our own for awhile... but if that comes to pass its going to be come a niche thing (more then it already is anyway) and the software isn't going to follow us. Which will make Linux the only viable alternative for DIY projects.

Just go with my crystal ball reading....

Which means PC gaming will be dead. Of course, you already know that will not be the case but hey, Linux and all. Amazing how you have come to your conclusion based upon wishful thinking and foolishness. Oh well, guess I need to start.....

 

[heatlesssun]

Which means PC gaming will be dead. Of course, you already know that will not be the case but hey, Linux and all. Amazing how you have come to your conclusion based upon wishful thinking and foolishness. Oh well, guess I need to start.....

It's all over the place. The desktop will be dead, Linux gaming is "exploding" and Windows gaming is "exploding" 5 times faster than that. The desktop isn't going away any time soon, i.e. large screen general computing devices that can actually run multiple programs on multiple screen simultaneously.

 

[ChadD]

Which means PC gaming will be dead. Of course, you already know that will not be the case but hey, Linux and all. Amazing how you have come to your conclusion based upon wishful thinking and foolishness. Oh well, guess I need to start.....

Yes gaming on the PC will be dead. Which company is championing PC gaming ? Microsoft ? Sony ? Google ? Apple ? Exactly none of them are. Sure no no Microsoft is... all the things they have done the last few years that are good for PC gaming have happened because their Xbox has been failing. If Xbox sales pick up when their new pro hits... MS is going to back track all that. If it fails hard who knows... perhaps they push PC gaming hard and throw money around to keep Sony from gobbling up the best games hitting the market, perhaps they don't as well. So much hinges on that machine that its depressing. None of the major hardware platform players want cross platform or OPEN non store locked game sales happening. I know the Valve guys can sound insane when they scream about MS... but that rant last year about their store. It was based very much on what they where hearing from Developers working with MS.

Yes PC gaming as we know it at least has been in trouble for a long time.

 

[Snowdog]

No what I am saying makes perfect sense.

Linux survives the end of desktop sales... Windows does not.

I am sure it makes perfect sense inside your head. But it really doesn't anywhere else.

At one time PC sales where over 300 million a year Its estimated that dropped to around 220-240 million in 2016 depending on which numbers you count. At the current rate of decline they will drop under 200 million with in the next year or two... and if that continues they may well drop under 100 million with in 4 years.

Let's not use the numbers in your head. It was about 270 Million in 2016. Predictions I have seen are small drop in 2017, with stability in 2018. So stable around 250 million.
http://www.businessinsider.com/pc-sales-decline-year-chart-2017-1

If PC sales drop under 100 million units a year world wide... how long do you think companies continue developing and supporting windows only or at all ? I think you can already make a fair argument that more development is being done on Android and iOS then any other platform.

Not happening in the foreseeable future. Even then I would rather be a Windows developer that can charge $50 for an application, than an Android developer where everyone expects everything for free or 99 cents.

 

[ChadD]

It's all over the place. The desktop will be dead, Linux gaming is "exploding" and Windows gaming is "exploding" 5 times faster than that. The desktop isn't going away any time soon, i.e. large screen general computing devices that can actually run multiple programs on multiple screen simultaneously.

Glad your seeing it.

I can't help but do this again though... once more you are pointing to a NICHE computing use and assuming its some big mass market sales angle. No consumer is buying multiple monitors. Sure a few of us do... and some folks use dual monitors at work. Very few people are using them at home.

Having said that when did desktops become the only systems capable of using two monitors. As I have also said... Chromecast already gives you a larger screen if your an android user. Think ahead a bit heatle if I sell you a Samsung Galaxy S12 in a few years that has a processor = to an I3 or even i5 with a GPU on par with a current main stream GPU. Then let you cast your screen onto a monitor or tv... if your Joe Average are you happy to use that or do you still want to go and drop another grand or more on a new laptop or desktop ? Cause we all know joe average is buying that new phone every year or two anyway.

The switch should be giving you the idea of where its going. If the switch sells hard this year... I would be very worried about the future of PC gaming. When people start using their phones in the same way... the desktop is dead.

 

[BulletDust]

I said it before and I will say it again because it is true: Until Linux has an all encompassing single distro that makes it easy to support, Linux on the Desktop will never take off. One of the biggest reasons that Windows is the mainstay on the desktop is the familiarity for customers and old software support that Linux or Mac just cannot touch.

Nah, I don't want this at all - In fact if that became the case I'd happily ditch Linux. The fact that we aren't tied to a single, unified interface is without a doubt one of the strengths of Linux. The fact you believe this is an issue indicates you don't have much, if any, experience with Linux.

LOL! Saw this last night. He spent more time talking about a Windows 10 torrent that has malware in it and how that's so bad for hardcore gamers though hardcore gamers should stick to Windows? Except that should because Linux is technically superior in his opinion? I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. I just like to play games and most of the time I don't even finish them. I just enjoy the experience or variety of different games and I typically stick to single player, I just don't have the skills for online.

The thing about gaming and DIY PCs, if you build a great gaming PC, it's going to be pretty much a great everything PC from a hardware perspective. A DIY PC hardcore gamer who is build a high end rig typically is going to have a lot of uses for it besides gaming.

His point was related to the fact that so many people illegally download Windows, it's the most downloaded torrent available today, that it's obvious they don't see value in the OS - They just want to play games, which he highlighted was fine from a personal perspective. Really no different to my argument that people purchasing questionable keys for $20 - $30.00 really can't see value in the full retail price of Windows. Every one of his other points cover what I've been saying all along perfectly.

 

[ChadD]

I am sure it makes perfect sense inside your head. But it really doesn't anywhere else.

Let's not use the numbers in your head. It was about 270 Million in 2016. Predictions I have seen are small drop in 2017, with stability in 2018. So stable around 250 million.
http://www.businessinsider.com/pc-sales-decline-year-chart-2017-1

Not happening in the foreseeable future. Even then I would rather be a Windows developer that can charge $50 for an application, than an Android developer where everyone expects everything for free or 99 cents.

I have seen a few different numbers reported for desktop sales... it comes down to which lines of 2in1s ect you count in your numbers. Regardless things are declining and they aren't likely to stop. Most of the speculation that things will improve are based on wrong headed arguments that people are just not upgrading as fast ect. Which may well be correct but I suspect are BS.

As for developing Windows VS Android. You are correct for now. A good piece of windows software selling at 50 bucks is good money. Still its economics of scale. Do you want a $40 profit on 20,000 units or a $1 profit on 2-3 million units. The scale is already there and lots of developers have moved over to developing for the mobile platforms.

 

[heatlesssun]

His point was related to the fact that so many people illegally download Windows, it's the most downloaded torrent available today, that it's obvious they don't see value in the OS - They just want to play games, which he highlighted was fine from a personal perspective. Really no different to my argument that people purchasing questionable keys for $20 - $30.00 really can't see value in the full retail price of Windows. Every one of his other points cover what I've been saying all along perfectly.

First of all, how did this guy connect pirated Windows 10 copies with gamers? And if one is pirating Windows for games there's a good chance they're probably pirating the games as well. So I guess these people don't see any value in anything.

 

[jardows]

If we are arguing about the future as we seem to be. Yes the desktop is doomed I don't even think that is debatable anymore.

Since the keyboard has been a vital part of business office productivity since the 1870's, I don't think the "desktop" is doomed as you say. Maybe not the big voluminous towers, but there will be a place for the "desktop" computer for a long while.

His point was related to the fact that so many people illegally download Windows, it's the most downloaded torrent available today, that it's obvious they don't see value in the OS - They just want to play games, which he highlighted was fine from a personal perspective. Really no different to my argument that people purchasing questionable keys for $20 - $30.00 really can't see value in the full retail price of Windows. Every one of his other points cover what I've been saying all along perfectly.

According to this logic, it is obvious people don't see any value to Game of Thrones, since it is the most illegally download show.

 

[BulletDust]

I have seen a few different numbers reported for desktop sales... it comes down to which lines of 2in1s ect you count in your numbers. Regardless things are declining and they aren't likely to stop. Most of the speculation that things will improve are based on wrong headed arguments that people are just not upgrading as fast ect. Which may well be correct but I suspect are BS.

I don't know about the desktop PC dying, you can't do real work on an Ipad. On Android it's possible if you connect an off the shelf keyboard and mouse, but a desktop is the ideal solution. The way I see it, people aren't upgrading as fast as technology isn't really improving the way it did in the past, any performance gains we're seeing from CPU's are based around improvements to the memory controller as opposed to any improvements to the CPU core itself. One of my PC's here runs a 2700k @ 5Ghz with 16GB of ram and a GTX 1080 and it doesn't struggle with anything and upgrading the base system will offer little to no performance gain. We're simply reaching the limits of silicon based technologies.