• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Starcraft II

Vermillion said:
I'm a few days late but Jinro's matches vs MC show how imbalanced the warp gate is.

Before people start going batshit crazy that I just said Protoss is imba keep this in mind: Protoss is the ONLY race that can FE with absolutely ZERO penalty and the Warp Gate is the reason why. When Protoss FE they get their first round of gateway units and can immediately double that number with warp gate thus protecting their expansion or adding crazy early pressure against a FE Zerg or FE Terran. Not to mention with a single pylon they can constantly warp in a shit ton of reinforcements right next to the battle. Zerg and Terran cannot do any of that.

Jinro lost to because Terran can not out macro a Protoss or Zerg opponent if both players are equally skilled. Now I know somebody will go what about Jinro's Ro8 TvP? Jinro won macro games against Protoss during Ro8 because his macro skills were just flat out better then his opponent and his opponent made some very bad decisions. However, after going up 2-0 Jinro struggled and damn near lost because the Protoss decided to NOT try to out macro him and abused Warp Gates instead.

Mark my words: Warp Gate will get nerfed in the future especially if MC wins GSL3.

People complain that TSL_Rain cheesed his way to the GSL finals and that he really isn't all that good. I just laugh at stupid shit like that. Rain did exactly what I would do as Terran with the game in its current form: Try to end the game in the first 12 minutes. If Terran doesn't end the game versus Protoss in the first 12 minutes or do heavy damage during that time to the Protoss economy, they WILL lose unless the Protoss player makes some huge blunder like the end of Jinro's Ro8 set 5.

If TSL_Rain goes for the throat and tries to end every game in the first 12 minutes or does heavy harass during those first 12 minutes to keep the Protoss economy in check, he will win. If Rain tries to out macro MC he will lose.

My pick: oGsMC over TSL_Rain 4-2.

PS: Don't take anything I said as a slight against oGsMC and his skill level. Part of being a great player is knowing everything about your race and abusing whatever you can in order to get the win and MC does that incredibly well. A Warp Gate nerf will not hurt him or turn him into a mere mortal gamer. He will simply adapt and continue crushing other peoples dreams.
Click to expand...

There is so much I disagree with about what you wrote. Fast expanding is still risky as a Protoss and you absolutely are "penalized" if you do so against an all in attack or even strong early aggression. If I fast expand against an all in of any race I'm going to lose. Yes, with a single pylon Protoss can warp in units to a battle, but, the warp is not instantaneous and you are still constrained by your economy and number of gateways. It's not as if Terran and Zerg don't have their advantages there too. Terran can double produce several unit types and Zerg can produce massive waves of units thanks to larvae and simultaneous production. Also, with good creep spread you basically warp units in.

Terran can easily keep pace with Zerg and Protoss as far as macro goes. That wasn't Jinro's problem. Had he played a litter safer he could have held off MC's early aggression. I've never seen macro be a problem for a good Terran, especially with MULES.

Jinro got outplayed plain and simple. When he went for a long game macro style MC went for early game pressure. When Jinro went for Thors, MC countered perfectly with DTs. Trying to repair a bunker? Sorry, force fields all over the place. Jinro didn't lose due to imba warpgates. He lost because MC outplayed him every match.
 
Haha, warpgate nerf? Oh please. You really think that's why Jinro lost?

How's bronze treating ya?
 
Lol warpgate is OP, everyone needs to quit bitching and play the game. If you think something is overpowered you should think about how to overcome that rather than just throw your hands in the air, give up and bitch.


Protoss is not overpowered, and no one will agree with you at all.
 
Vermillion said:
Before people start going batshit crazy that I just said Protoss is imba keep this in mind: Protoss is the ONLY race that can FE with absolutely ZERO penalty and the Warp Gate is the reason why. When Protoss FE they get their first round of gateway units and can immediately double that number with warp gate thus protecting their expansion or adding crazy early pressure against a FE Zerg or FE Terran. Not to mention with a single pylon they can constantly warp in a shit ton of reinforcements right next to the battle. Zerg and Terran cannot do any of that.
Click to expand...

I doubt it. I mean, do you have replays to back this up? FE usually means you sacrifice some or part of your army in order to front the cost for a new nexus. Zerg and Terran have to do the same.

As to toss reinforcing the battlefield, the zerg can do it too. You say a single plyon for toss, I say a single nydus for zerg. Just set the rally point of all hatcheries to that nydus and they'll be there.

Plus, the warp in is not instant. It takes a few seconds. Plus, (I haven't looked at the cool down) I believe that warping in units + cool down + couple seconds before actually able to battle and simply producing units from the gateway takes the same amount of time. The only difference between the two is that you can command to have the units AT THAT EXACT MOMENT and pay the penalty in cooldown. Yes, warp gate is useful, but unless the time difference between each new units is more than 1-2 seconds, then it becomes overpowered. I don't think it is.
 
petertew said:
There is so much I disagree with about what you wrote. Fast expanding is still risky as a Protoss and you absolutely are "penalized" if you do so against an all in attack or even strong early aggression. If I fast expand against an all in of any race I'm going to lose. Yes, with a single pylon Protoss can warp in units to a battle, but, the warp is not instantaneous and you are still constrained by your economy and number of gateways. It's not as if Terran and Zerg don't have their advantages there too. Terran can double produce several unit types and Zerg can produce massive waves of units thanks to larvae and simultaneous production. Also, with good creep spread you basically warp units in.

Terran can easily keep pace with Zerg and Protoss as far as macro goes. That wasn't Jinro's problem. Had he played a litter safer he could have held off MC's early aggression. I've never seen macro be a problem for a good Terran, especially with MULES.

Jinro got outplayed plain and simple. When he went for a long game macro style MC went for early game pressure. When Jinro went for Thors, MC countered perfectly with DTs. Trying to repair a bunker? Sorry, force fields all over the place. Jinro didn't lose due to imba warpgates. He lost because MC outplayed him every match.
Click to expand...

Dreaz said:
Haha, warpgate nerf? Oh please. You really think that's why Jinro lost?

How's bronze treating ya?
Click to expand...

Deluded said:
I doubt it. I mean, do you have replays to back this up? FE usually means you sacrifice some or part of your army in order to front the cost for a new nexus. Zerg and Terran have to do the same.

As to toss reinforcing the battlefield, the zerg can do it too. You say a single plyon for toss, I say a single nydus for zerg. Just set the rally point of all hatcheries to that nydus and they'll be there.

Plus, the warp in is not instant. It takes a few seconds. Plus, (I haven't looked at the cool down) I believe that warping in units + cool down + couple seconds before actually able to battle and simply producing units from the gateway takes the same amount of time. The only difference between the two is that you can command to have the units AT THAT EXACT MOMENT and pay the penalty in cooldown. Yes, warp gate is useful, but unless the time difference between each new units is more than 1-2 seconds, then it becomes overpowered. I don't think it is.
Click to expand...

Where's the penalty? An expo between 28-30 food, with two more gateways and Warp Gate tech finishes right around the time Terran has a big enough army to really threaten a Protoss 1 gate army. So Protoss get to have one extra round of army warped in to hold against a Terran push. If Terran scouts FE and goes all-in, Protoss simply cut probes, drop a 4th gate, and win. If Terran doesn't all-in and goes Banshee then Protoss gets a robo instead of 4th gate and an observer. If Terran decides to FE instead the Protoss is still ahead economically. So now Protoss has a faster growing army and a better econ so they can just expand again and end it.

Nydus Worms and Reactors aren't nearly the same as Warp Gate. Not to mention Nydus isn't something Zerg generally try to rush tech to.

As for Jinro vs MC you missed the point. I never said MC didn't correctly counter Jinro. I never said macro itself was an issue. I said Jinro lost because he tried to out macro a Protoss. Jinro lost because he didn't go hyper aggressive with something like a Banshee rush or a 3rax timing attack followed by expansion and another push.

If MC had gone a macro build he still would have won. Macro builds are generally considered safe from early aggression especially for Terran. However, the Warp Gate tech allows Protoss to constantly stream in reinforcements far faster then Terran can train them. This allows Protoss to be overly hyper aggressive to the point where things like bunkers are worthless as seen in some of the games vs Jinro. That's why 4 gate is used so often. MC's trick with the FF was awesome and will be come a standard now. It will make bunkers worthless vs Protoss especially after the upcoming repair nerf. That means 4 gate will become even more popular because it'll be damn near insta-win.

Like I said earlier if TSL_Rain is hyper aggressive and goes for the throat quickly he will win. If he goes for a "safe" macro oriented style of play he will lose.

Decko87 said:
Lol warpgate is OP, everyone needs to quit bitching and play the game. If you think something is overpowered you should think about how to overcome that rather than just throw your hands in the air, give up and bitch.


Protoss is not overpowered, and no one will agree with you at all.
Click to expand...

No, only Protoss players will disagree with me. Plus if that's your mind set then Terran repair shouldn't be getting nerfed nor should the SCV attack priority. Seems to me bitching did a good job of getting those, Battle Cruisers, and Siege Tanks nerfed.

I know how to overcome it. Hyper-aggressive play and end the game in 12 minutes is how you win TvP right now unless you are truly more skilled then your opponent. Go longer then 12 minutes and you better pray your econ is better then the Protoss because if it isn't you lose unless your opponent does something really stupid.

Warp Gate nerf will be incoming. Just watch.
 
Vermillion said:
No, only Protoss players will disagree with me. Plus if that's your mind set then Terran repair shouldn't be getting nerfed nor should the SCV attack priority. Seems to me bitching did a good job of getting those, Battle Cruisers, and Siege Tanks nerfed.

I know how to overcome it. Hyper-aggressive play and end the game in 12 minutes is how you win TvP right now unless you are truly more skilled then your opponent. Go longer then 12 minutes and you better pray your econ is better then the Protoss because if it isn't you lose unless your opponent does something really stupid.

Warp Gate nerf will be incoming. Just watch.
Click to expand...

Clearly you don't or you wouldn't have this mindset. We'll see about it, but I'm REALLY doubtful
 
Vermillion said:
Where's the penalty? An expo between 28-30 food, with two more gateways and Warp Gate tech finishes right around the time Terran has a big enough army to really threaten a Protoss 1 gate army. So Protoss get to have one extra round of army warped in to hold against a Terran push. If Terran scouts FE and goes all-in, Protoss simply cut probes, drop a 4th gate, and win. If Terran doesn't all-in and goes Banshee then Protoss gets a robo instead of 4th gate and an observer. If Terran decides to FE instead the Protoss is still ahead economically. So now Protoss has a faster growing army and a better econ so they can just expand again and end it.
Click to expand...

Oh God, not this mindset again. Dude, you throw up every counter to everything a Terran player can do as if a Protoss player can just make every correct decision every time. This just reminds me of other threads I've read where the following unfolds:

"Yeah so I went bioball and he crushed it with storm and speedlots."
"Next time try incorporating some ghosts in there."
"If I do that he just goes carrier and wtfpwns me."
"Ok, if you see him going carrier get vikings and bring them down."
"Yeah, but if I go vikings he just gets a big ass ground force and wtfpwns me."
"Ok, then get siege tanks if he's going for a large ground army and back them up with SCVs and bioball."
"But if I do that he just get's immortals and storms and wtfpwns me."
REPEAT

This kind of mental image of Protoss (or any race) has no foundation in reality. I can't just lay down 4 gates and then cancel one at the last possible second because I scout a banshee rush. I still have to wait for my robo and ob to build. Protoss players can't just create units and structures instantaneously and at will. The game doesn't work that way. Protoss still has the basic constraints of economy, supply and time. LTP.
 
Yes, people who complain like that are doing it for the sake of complaining. But in all seriousness, once protoss gets a third and starts pumping out HT's with amulet upgrade, its a major up hill battle for the Terran no matter how you slice it, ghosts or not.
 
petertew said:
Oh God, not this mindset again. Dude, you throw up every counter to everything a Terran player can do as if a Protoss player can just make every correct decision every time. This just reminds me of other threads I've read where the following unfolds:

"Yeah so I went bioball and he crushed it with storm and speedlots."
"Next time try incorporating some ghosts in there."
"If I do that he just goes carrier and wtfpwns me."
"Ok, if you see him going carrier get vikings and bring them down."
"Yeah, but if I go vikings he just gets a big ass ground force and wtfpwns me."
"Ok, then get siege tanks if he's going for a large ground army and back them up with SCVs and bioball."
"But if I do that he just get's immortals and storms and wtfpwns me."
REPEAT

This kind of mental image of Protoss (or any race) has no foundation in reality. I can't just lay down 4 gates and then cancel one at the last possible second because I scout a banshee rush. I still have to wait for my robo and ob to build. Protoss players can't just create units and structures instantaneously and at will. The game doesn't work that way. Protoss still has the basic constraints of economy, supply and time. LTP.
Click to expand...

It's not a mindset. It's not even remotely close to being storm vs. bioball. This is simply a matter of Warp Gate allowing Protoss to do whatever the hell they want off an FE.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=172402
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=172401
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=168632
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=160850

refraxion said:
Yes, people who complain like that are doing it for the sake of complaining. But in all seriousness, once protoss gets a third and starts pumping out HT's with amulet upgrade, its a major up hill battle for the Terran no matter how you slice it, ghosts or not.
Click to expand...

Finally somebody who gets it. Thus why I said if MC had gone a macro game instead of being overly hyper aggressive he still would have won. It's why I said hyper aggressive play for Terran in TvP and kill your opponent in 12 minutes.

Really I'm not so much complaining as just saying a nerf for Warp Gate is incoming. I knew the repairing thing would get nerfed too a long time ago after the first time I saw people do it on a single BC or Thor. Frankly I'm impressed it wasn't nerfed a long time ago.
 
refraxion said:
Yes, people who complain like that are doing it for the sake of complaining. But in all seriousness, once protoss gets a third and starts pumping out HT's with amulet upgrade, its a major up hill battle for the Terran no matter how you slice it, ghosts or not.
Click to expand...

Assuming equal skill level that would depends on your unit composition, upgrades and macro. If you're bioball on two base, yes, you're probably screwed. That doesn't mean every build is going to die against it. Well spaced tanks with thors and banshee support I could see doing quite well, especially with a few well placed EMPs.
 
To begin, I'm not really sure what makes you think "warp gates" are getting nerfed. The PTR basically has nothing indicating any sort of warpgate nerf, not to mention that would probably break protoss early game. If you think storm and our late game is a little too powerful, you might be wrong but I think Terrans just aren't playing it right. Any good Terran player can fast expand as well, or just break your front when Protoss fast expands. I don't think any Terran player sees Protoss FE as a balance issue, it's a just a newer strategy. People are too quick to call something imbalanced, right now to me it just seems like Protoss strategy has taken a slight jump over Terrans in that match-up, but that's not always the case. I've had plenty of Terrans crush me with MM banshee and good EMPS. HTs are slow and it's hard to keep them seperated, EMP on them should be very easy even in the late game.

I don't know, I don't really like talking balance base on just units, it's boring and pointless. Everyone plays differently, and it's not just skill level that separates players in specific games. Sometimes it's the map, sometimes it's a specific strategy or a way a player executes on that certain map, in that situation at that particular time. So again, you might be right about Storm being a little too good in the late game, but I don't see warpgates being a problem, and I haven't heard anything related to them changing. As a final note, just stating Warp gate is going to be nerfed is too general, every unit has different cool downs from the warpgates, so I don't think I understand what you mean by that. Unless you mean all of the units are getting nerfed, which just won't ever happen.
 
Warpgate isn't an issue at all, I'm just stating that once the late game comes around, with HT's and amulet its a hard battle for terrans regardless of EMP and skill level. Map's and chokes definitely play a big part of it too. I've played many successful macro games where it came down to the wire and the protoss still somehow wins with a ton of HT's and zealots regardless of EMP. They just spam the HT's with a zealot ball. Most Terrans actually have problems with zealot balls (Charge) late game due to HT support.
 
Doesn't storm hurt the protoss player too? Be a bit redundant to spam storm if you're going to kill off your own zealots.
 
Well, I've been having fun compstomping 3v3 :cool:


It's much more interesting then 2v2, IMO. Med&Hard. I don't have the guts, or the ability to go for Very Hard or Insane :(
 
Since I'm pretty bad at multiplayer I just tend to take on very hard comps. A swift DT rush can end the game under 10 mins.
 
Deluded said:
Doesn't storm hurt the protoss player too? Be a bit redundant to spam storm if you're going to kill off your own zealots.
Click to expand...

Usually its cast on the army and then cast on the army while they are running back, the zealots will cover the front, storm covers the back. I dunno how to explain it, but its actually pretty hard to defend against.
 
refraxion said:
Warpgate isn't an issue at all, I'm just stating that once the late game comes around, with HT's and amulet its a hard battle for terrans regardless of EMP and skill level. Map's and chokes definitely play a big part of it too. I've played many successful macro games where it came down to the wire and the protoss still somehow wins with a ton of HT's and zealots regardless of EMP. They just spam the HT's with a zealot ball. Most Terrans actually have problems with zealot balls (Charge) late game due to HT support.
Click to expand...

Post a replay and I guarantee I can tell you what you could have done differently and win the game
 
ThumperSD said:
Post a replay and I guarantee I can tell you what you could have done differently and win the game
Click to expand...

It's easier said than done. I can say the same to anybody else's replay and say what they did wrong and what they could have done to win the game. I haven't played much protoss lately to post a long replay. I usually try to end it before much HT's come out, once they do, its a lot harder than you would think to win. I've seen and watched many pros lose to HT's with superior armies.

Blue flame hellions are also not an answer to zealot balls.
 
Maybe you were outplayed? That's why I asked for the replay. No offense but Ive even lost games where I have been able to tech to storm but my opponent outplayed me with better position, micro, macro, timing etc. I would watch the replay and know what I did wrong. Im sure you can do the same by analyzing your replay and finding holes in your play. It's easy to blame things on a certain unit or spell but a lot of the times it comes down to micro, positioning and decision making.
 
I know what you mean, and I'm not taking it negatively :p. I'm not saying HT's with storm is OP, by no means. I'm just saying during the late game once both sides are saturated, HT's are pretty hard to deal with in general, micro/position. Really the safest way to deal with HT's IMO are tanks, just gotta outrange them haha. I gotta work on my flank for sure.

I would provide a replay, but like I said I haven't played protoss to lategame lately or else I'd definitely post one up.
 
refraxion said:
I know what you mean, and I'm not taking it negatively :p. I'm not saying HT's with storm is OP, by no means. I'm just saying during the late game once both sides are saturated, HT's are pretty hard to deal with in general, micro/position. Really the safest way to deal with HT's IMO are tanks, just gotta outrange them haha. I gotta work on my flank for sure.

I would provide a replay, but like I said I haven't played protoss to lategame lately or else I'd definitely post one up.
Click to expand...

I think this is pretty much the general consensus right now, it seems to me like Protoss late game strategy is just slightly ahead of Terran's right now. Since the Beta these kinds of shifts in dynamics and strategy have been pretty common. There was a lot of balance patches back then, but late in the beta it just came down to what we knew about the game, and how to play. We'll see a Terran late game evolve more over the next few months I'm sure. I think all Terran players should certainly check out the MLG matches from LiquidTyler and PainUser. PainUser had such an effective late game against toss, and it was so unique. I feel like that kind of unit mix for Terran might gradually become more popular once people get away from this heavy tier 1 massing all game long.
 
Decko87 said:
I think this is pretty much the general consensus right now, it seems to me like Protoss late game strategy is just slightly ahead of Terran's right now. Since the Beta these kinds of shifts in dynamics and strategy have been pretty common. There was a lot of balance patches back then, but late in the beta it just came down to what we knew about the game, and how to play. We'll see a Terran late game evolve more over the next few months I'm sure. I think all Terran players should certainly check out the MLG matches from LiquidTyler and PainUser. PainUser had such an effective late game against toss, and it was so unique. I feel like that kind of unit mix for Terran might gradually become more popular once people get away from this heavy tier 1 massing all game long.
Click to expand...

Yeah for sure, new ways to deal with it pop up all the time. I'm almost thinking of just adding a few thors in my unit mix with some tanks and see how it fares. I like to experiment more so than just watching heh :p. But then again, that's because of my lack of time to actually play so I don't want to use it up watching replays XD;;
 
refraxion said:
Yes, people who complain like that are doing it for the sake of complaining. But in all seriousness, once protoss gets a third and starts pumping out HT's with amulet upgrade, its a major up hill battle for the Terran no matter how you slice it, ghosts or not.
Click to expand...

Well you're right. If the Terran is also on a third and is still on T1 units (bioball), it is going to be an uphill battle. I would recommend you check out one of the ESL (is this right?) games with Liquid~Tyler vs Painuser. Painuser introduces Terran's to a new late game that involves a heavy mech emphasis against toss at that stage.

Of course Tyler didn't go HT in that instance, but I think the game demonstrates a possible transition Terran's could make once they hit 3+4 bases.Especially against a heavy Gateway unit army, such as armies with HT usually are.
 
Dreaz said:
Well you're right. If the Terran is also on a third and is still on T1 units (bioball), it is going to be an uphill battle. I would recommend you check out one of the ESL (is this right?) games with Liquid~Tyler vs Painuser. Painuser introduces Terran's to a new late game that involves a heavy mech emphasis against toss at that stage.

Of course Tyler didn't go HT in that instance, but I think the game demonstrates a possible transition Terran's could make once they hit 3+4 bases.Especially against a heavy Gateway unit army, such as armies with HT usually are.
Click to expand...

I'll have to check this out later, but you brought up a great point about T1 units. Terrans relying on Bioball should absolutely lose to high Templar. A T1 ball of units shouldn't be able to outclass an equally expensive (or even fairly less expensive) T3 army.

I think Terran's weakness in the late game might be showing a couple of things. First, Terrans haven't adapted, or at least aren't as familiar with, their late game strategies and have instead relied on strong microing of bioballs to propel them to victory. Thus, in a long game matchup their reliance on low tier units leads to losses. Jinro looks like the best Terran long-game macro player I've seen yet. Just about everyone else I saw in the GSLs playing Terran was focusing hard on early aggression or all-ins; either way their play style seemed heavily skewed towards micro play at the expense of their long-term macro game.

Second, it shows that the races are weighted differently with regards to their unit-tier spread. Terran has a fairly high number of low tier units (marines, maruaders, reapers, ghosts, and hellions) and lower number of high tier units (Thors, Battle cruisers, Raven(?)) whereas Protoss have a low number of low tier units (Zealots, stalker, sentry) and a high number of high tier units (DT, HT, Colossus, Mothership, Carrier). This could partially explain why Terrans often push for ending games early, but doesn't necessarily denote an imbalance.

All just my opinion of course; I reserve the right to be proven wrong.
 
I think this replay might add to this PvT discussion: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/40800

I'm kinda upset. Before I stopped playing because of school this semester, my new build I was thinking of involved chargalots and HTs late game, and now that I'm ready to get back into it, that's looking FOTM. Maybe I'll try out some zerg.

Anyways, I think it mostly comes down to terran adapting. I don't think any changes blizzard made had that huge of an influence on the PvT metagame, and yet terran used to be considered the easy-mode race. I think the change came when protoss started relying more on higher tech units. I'm guessing the same will happen for terran.
 
The current buzzwords for PvT is "T good early, P good late" and most people just repeat a variant of that.

Blizzard knows what's going on and they already said PvT might be 50/50, but it's a lopsided 50/50 with T winning mostly early on and P winning mostly later. Whether or not you think that's a bad thing for balance is a toss up. I think Blizzard is of the stance that they don't like it.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
The current buzzwords for PvT is "T good early, P good late" and most people just repeat a variant of that.

Blizzard knows what's going on and they already said PvT might be 50/50, but it's a lopsided 50/50 with T winning mostly early on and P winning mostly later. Whether or not you think that's a bad thing for balance is a toss up. I think Blizzard is of the stance that they don't like it.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I don't think it's healthy for the future of the game either.
 
petertew said:
I'll have to check this out later, but you brought up a great point about T1 units. Terrans relying on Bioball should absolutely lose to high Templar. A T1 ball of units shouldn't be able to outclass an equally expensive (or even fairly less expensive) T3 army.

I think Terran's weakness in the late game might be showing a couple of things. First, Terrans haven't adapted, or at least aren't as familiar with, their late game strategies and have instead relied on strong microing of bioballs to propel them to victory. Thus, in a long game matchup their reliance on low tier units leads to losses. Jinro looks like the best Terran long-game macro player I've seen yet. Just about everyone else I saw in the GSLs playing Terran was focusing hard on early aggression or all-ins; either way their play style seemed heavily skewed towards micro play at the expense of their long-term macro game.

Second, it shows that the races are weighted differently with regards to their unit-tier spread. Terran has a fairly high number of low tier units (marines, maruaders, reapers, ghosts, and hellions) and lower number of high tier units (Thors, Battle cruisers, Raven(?)) whereas Protoss have a low number of low tier units (Zealots, stalker, sentry) and a high number of high tier units (DT, HT, Colossus, Mothership, Carrier). This could partially explain why Terrans often push for ending games early, but doesn't necessarily denote an imbalance.

All just my opinion of course; I reserve the right to be proven wrong.
Click to expand...

There are two reasons why MMM is used right now versus P over Mech.

1. You have to start out MM in order to apply early pressure and MM is extremely mobile. This usually means MM with stim and shells. Plus Ghosts are the natural counter to HTs. So you have to spend money on Ghosts. That's a lot of money to throw into MMG so it makes the transition into Mech very hard to do. I suppose you could try to 1 rax FE for a mech build...oh wait that auto-loses to 4 gate.

2. Mech sucks hard against P and is very immobile. Blue Flame Hellions do squat because they just get surrounded by chargelots and require a lot a micro (you try microing Hellions while moving tanks, banshees, ghosts out of storm range). Tanks get shredded by Chargelots since they can't kill them anymore thanks to the nerf. Thors kill Stalkers quite nicely but fall to Chargelots and Collosi since 250mm cannon is a whole range of 6 versus 9 on the Collosi. Thors are only going to fall even faster with patch 1.2 due to the SCV attack priority bug fix and the repair nerf.

So what's left? Air? It would be viable if you have 3-4 bases except BC's were nerfed too and they're incredibly slow and very expensive. Feedback would rape Banshee's and Vikings well they're pretty worthless for anything but Collosi.

Yesterday after my post about TvP imbalances and ending the game in 12 minutes a thread popped up over at TL. Here's the funny thing though everything I said yesterday (that got me criticized with comments like LTP and how's bronze) is in this thread over and over again, so apparently I'm not the only one out there thinking like this. Even Huk is starting to change his standard play (as seen on his stream) on the Korean servers because the TvP over there is nothing but hyper aggressive Terran's attempting to end the game in 12 minutes. Nobody wants a late game match against Protoss because mech sucks and bio dies to HTs with amulet upgrade. Even if Terran comes out ahead in battle the Protoss simply warps in 3-4 HT's and finishes off the already weakened bioball.

If you ignore the usual trolls there are quite a few good posts, some great replays, a few interesting ideas, and a few posts by Jinro. There's also a link to a blog post by Blizzard about how they determine an imbalance in the game. Going by Blizzards own data TvP is currently imbalanced. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176558
 
Vermillion said:
There are two reasons why MMM is used right now versus P over Mech.

1. You have to start out MM in order to apply early pressure and MM is extremely mobile. This usually means MM with stim and shells. Plus Ghosts are the natural counter to HTs. So you have to spend money on Ghosts. That's a lot of money to throw into MMG so it makes the transition into Mech very hard to do. I suppose you could try to 1 rax FE for a mech build...oh wait that auto-loses to 4 gate.

2. Mech sucks hard against P and is very immobile. Blue Flame Hellions do squat because they just get surrounded by chargelots and require a lot a micro (you try microing Hellions while moving tanks, banshees, ghosts out of storm range). Tanks get shredded by Chargelots since they can't kill them anymore thanks to the nerf. Thors kill Stalkers quite nicely but fall to Chargelots and Collosi since 250mm cannon is a whole range of 6 versus 9 on the Collosi. Thors are only going to fall even faster with patch 1.2 due to the SCV attack priority bug fix and the repair nerf.

So what's left? Air? It would be viable if you have 3-4 bases except BC's were nerfed too and they're incredibly slow and very expensive. Feedback would rape Banshee's and Vikings well they're pretty worthless for anything but Collosi.

Yesterday after my post about TvP imbalances and ending the game in 12 minutes a thread popped up over at TL. Here's the funny thing though everything I said yesterday (that got me criticized with comments like LTP and how's bronze) is in this thread over and over again, so apparently I'm not the only one out there thinking like this. Even Huk is starting to change his standard play (as seen on his stream) on the Korean servers because the TvP over there is nothing but hyper aggressive Terran's attempting to end the game in 12 minutes. Nobody wants a late game match against Protoss because mech sucks and bio dies to HTs with amulet upgrade. Even if Terran comes out ahead in battle the Protoss simply warps in 3-4 HT's and finishes off the already weakened bioball.

If you ignore the usual trolls there are quite a few good posts, some great replays, a few interesting ideas, and a few posts by Jinro. There's also a link to a blog post by Blizzard about how they determine an imbalance in the game. Going by Blizzards own data TvP is currently imbalanced. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176558
Click to expand...

I read the posts until they started retreading ground, and I still haven't read anything that makes me think the game, specifically Protoss, are imba. The few times I read where a person tried to switch his army from bio to mech made it sound like they made weak attempts or build the necessary structures too late. It just feels in general that Terrans don't play for the long game and eventual switch to templar tech.

Anecdotally I've noticed this in other builds I've tried against bio. I've caught many mid level diamond (1500 pt) players by surprise with carriers w/ zealot support that I built to replenish my army instead of continuing on with my zealot/stalker/colossi ball. My overall impression, and granted I'm only one guy, is that a lot of Terrans struggle with the late game because their strategy and build doesn't factor late game play into the equation.
 
petertew said:
I read the posts until they started retreading ground, and I still haven't read anything that makes me think the game, specifically Protoss, are imba. The few times I read where a person tried to switch his army from bio to mech made it sound like they made weak attempts or build the necessary structures too late. It just feels in general that Terrans don't play for the long game and eventual switch to templar tech.

Anecdotally I've noticed this in other builds I've tried against bio. I've caught many mid level diamond (1500 pt) players by surprise with carriers w/ zealot support that I built to replenish my army instead of continuing on with my zealot/stalker/colossi ball. My overall impression, and granted I'm only one guy, is that a lot of Terrans struggle with the late game because their strategy and build doesn't factor late game play into the equation.
Click to expand...

To be fair, going mech against protoss isn't very viable at this point in time. Something needs to be figured out late game PvT. I played some protoss today and I won with some ghosts but that was because he blindly ran them into my army, if he kept them back like what most 2.5k+ protoss do, he would have torn apart my army.

I think its just that the protoss match-up kind of steers the terran towards Bio early-mid game and by then HT's come out which hard counter bio.

Now the solution to this is really to get some tanks / ghosts ready (I'd assume) for the eventual mid to late game scrum if the protoss invests heavily into HT's. That in my eyes might be a decent solution with some marauder balls in front to just stim kite the zealots to death while ghosts and tanks will take care of the HT's.

Also.. going air doom ball might be a solution, if they invest so much in ht's you "MIGHT" be able to counter with some raven/viking/banshee shenanigans to take out all observers and just reign air superiority while you turtle in base :p.
 
petertew said:
I read the posts until they started retreading ground, and I still haven't read anything that makes me think the game, specifically Protoss, are imba. The few times I read where a person tried to switch his army from bio to mech made it sound like they made weak attempts or build the necessary structures too late. It just feels in general that Terrans don't play for the long game and eventual switch to templar tech.

Anecdotally I've noticed this in other builds I've tried against bio. I've caught many mid level diamond (1500 pt) players by surprise with carriers w/ zealot support that I built to replenish my army instead of continuing on with my zealot/stalker/colossi ball. My overall impression, and granted I'm only one guy, is that a lot of Terrans struggle with the late game because their strategy and build doesn't factor late game play into the equation.
Click to expand...

Read all of it. There are some really good posts especially near the end. I firmly believe this match up is imbalanced just like many are saying and it is going to get worse with patch 1.2. We saw a lot of the same type of talk when it came to TvZ imbalance with roaches. Simply increasing the roach range made that oh so much better.
 
I read through it, and if anything it suggest a POSSIBLE slight imbalance. From Blizzard:


"Dominated isn't quite the right word. Remember: these numbers suggest tendencies, they're only part of the picture and they're always in flux. While it's useful (and fun) to review them, it's also good not to read too much into them."


Protoss is only slightly out of their range in Korea and North America, it might be a SLIGHT imbalance, or it might be nothing. Either way, the game is balanced enough for players to win in any scenario according to their method. It's not to the point where you're always going to lose, and it seems like, for the most part, the better player will win, even with a slight imbalance. Maybe all Terran players should look to European Diamond players to see what they're doing differently in the matchup, that's what those numbers seem to be suggesting possibly, then again, nothing is for sure.

Also, in Korea, it seems like Zerg is edging out protoss at almost the same rate Protoss is edging out Terran in NA, so again, it's in flux.
 
Okay I've read through the team liquid posts now as well, there's a lot of garbage to sort through. The general consensus is that it's too early to call imbalance right now. Toss going to HTs is a new trend and a new strategy. Jinro says a lot of constructive things about early ghosts and relates the match up to TvZ in BW with defilers, all pretty good stuff.

All of this stuff is just the strategic trends right now, this has been going on since the game really started to balance out. Like I said before, Terran strategy just needs to evolve a bit, balance changes might happen, but right now it seems unlikely. This sort of debate is healthy and helps players think about the match ups, but god damn is there a lot of bull shit in there as well.
 
Like I posted before, I am always open to being proven wrong, and this could very well be a case where I'm on the wrong side of the debate.
 
Decko87 said:
I think this is pretty much the general consensus right now, it seems to me like Protoss late game strategy is just slightly ahead of Terran's right now. Since the Beta these kinds of shifts in dynamics and strategy have been pretty common. There was a lot of balance patches back then, but late in the beta it just came down to what we knew about the game, and how to play. We'll see a Terran late game evolve more over the next few months I'm sure. I think all Terran players should certainly check out the MLG matches from LiquidTyler and PainUser. PainUser had such an effective late game against toss, and it was so unique. I feel like that kind of unit mix for Terran might gradually become more popular once people get away from this heavy tier 1 massing all game long.
Click to expand...

Also check out Jinro vs Socke @ MLG. Jinro was sending in small groups of units in at a time to absorb the storm and eventually won him the game. Pretty epic game and gives you an idea of how to attack against storm.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
I'm trying to get the blitzkrieg achievement in the mission Media blitz on hard, but I can't do it. I either get wiped out because the attacking army are stronger than I am, or wait too late to produce a half decent army and miss the deadline.

HOW DO YOU DO IT?!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top