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Starcraft II

TheResidentEvil said:
kind of like how PvP is war of the worlds? so tired of hearing the zerg crying about mutas as a P. Impossible to deal with them mutas as a P. Well, not anymore!
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Opening with phoenix against Z was NEVER a bad idea. My hardest ZvP matches are against P who open with phoenix. Even if the Z never gets mutalisk, it's a strong build.

The real problem is that people never ever utilize phoenix the way they're supposed to. People assume that anti-air means anti-battlecruiser / carrier / colossus. Phoenix are harassment / map control units. They will outright deny overlords throughout the map and force all the overlords to huddle in the Z's base. Lone queens can easily be sniped. Workers die extremely fast to phoenix.

Phoenix will outright deny mutalisk play. It's not even a matter of how well each player plays. Phoenix is about as close to a hard counter to mutalisk as it gets. I've never ever seen a Z win after phoenix are fielded if the Z continues to make mutalisk. Fielding phoenix forces a tech switch with the initial mutalisk investment completely wasted.

The reason Blizzard made the void ray and phoenix changes is to help people realize that void rays were always meant to be anti big units (they were NEVER intended to be the 'base destroying harassment unit'). The void ray damage change in a previous patch buffed them in combat and nerfed them in base harassment. 1 void ray was never meant to level a main building in less than 20 seconds and be able to get away. Phoenix were simply underused because your average player had no clue how to utilize them. If you can't A click and win, then it's too hard a unit to use apparently.
 
You know who NonY is? This is what I have to say in regards to your post:

Nony: I still like to use a lot of Phoenix play. If I get a chance i will definitely be using it. I feel like it is strongest against Terran as an opener. Four-Gate pressure from Protoss will kill you, and Zerg can defend pretty well against it as an opener.

Phoenix was not worth it. maybe with the update it will be. Not to mention late game phoenix with infestors who can fungal were USELESS. I dont like to spoil GSL so i will say a certain P went phoenix vs Z in the GSL recently...he isnt in it anymore.
 
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TheResidentEvil said:
You know who NonY is? This is what I have to say in regards to your post:

Nony: I still like to use a lot of Phoenix play. If I get a chance i will definitely be using it. I feel like it is strongest against Terran as an opener. Four-Gate pressure from Protoss will kill you, and Zerg can defend pretty well against it as an opener.

Phoenix was not worth it. maybe with the update it will be. Not to mention late game phoenix with infestors who can fungal were USELESS. I dont like to spoil GSL so i will say a certain P went phoenix vs Z in the GSL recently...he isnt in it anymore.
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I can quote various zerg players as well and claim it as definitive proof. I can also quote random games such as the Dimaga game where his 3 base muta play was beaten by 2 base blink stalkers. Nony only feels this strongly about phoenix because he used them A LOT during beta. It's like if a player's favorite unit wasn't dominating everything, he'd of course of a biased opinion.

I guarantee you that you aren't playing the same players that Nony is. I also don't like to base stuff around GSL. The ladder is ladder, GSL is the GSL. If everything was based off GSL, we'd have a huge marine nerf and a baneling buff against marines.
 
I dont really understand what you are saying. First you say that phoenix is good but people cant use them well enough so I tell you what the top level phoenix user thinks and you say its not the same for you and me. Which is it?

It really doesnt matter. I play P and you play Z. im gonna be happy and you are gonna bitch. Its just the way it is. All i know is running stalkers around your base between expo and main because mutas are all over it sucks. a lot. Hydras are even faster than stalkers on creep. 1 cannon/spore in the minerals..kills phoenix harass. 1 of those against mutas, the mutas just kill it.
 
TheResidentEvil said:
kind of like how PvP is war of the worlds? so tired of hearing the zerg crying about mutas as a P. Impossible to deal with them mutas as a P. Well, not anymore!
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I don't disagree with the Phoenix build time change, nor do I disagree that Fungal was previously too hard a counter for late Phoenix. An infestor popping basically meant Phoenix were no longer viable.

My suggest change allows them to stay useful, but doesn't let them control the map with complete freedom the way they will if Fungal can't affect them at all.

Also, I listened to State of the Game today and it sounded very much like iNControL and the other guys pretty much unanimously disagreed with the Fungal Growth change. That's maybe the most outspoken Protoss player out there saying "No, that nerf kills ZvZ and hurts ZvT as well"

Idra then suggested the same thing I did, that being an adjustment where fungal doesn't ignore air units, but simply hit them with a speed reduction while it's in effect. The rest of the group agreed that was a better fix.

If Idra and iNControL agree about something Zerg related, it's probably a sign :p
 
TheResidentEvil said:
I dont really understand what you are saying. First you say that phoenix is good but people cant use them well enough so I tell you what the top level phoenix user thinks and you say its not the same for you and me. Which is it?

It really doesnt matter. I play P and you play Z. im gonna be happy and you are gonna bitch. Its just the way it is. All i know is running stalkers around your base between expo and main because mutas are all over it sucks. a lot. Hydras are even faster than stalkers on creep. 1 cannon/spore in the minerals..kills phoenix harass. 1 of those against mutas, the mutas just kill it.
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No one's bitching except for you, apparently about mutalisk. I'm just saying that this change is pretty much Blizzard's way of making it more obvious to your average player what role the phoenix / void ray has as opposed to before when the void ray was used as a harassment unit. By buffing the phoenix it will promote players actually making them and through its use, people will slowly realize how to use phoenix.

Blizzard has balanced for silver / gold tier players before. The zealot build time change was to counteract the 'overwhelming success' proxy gate was seeing in gold and silver. Good players will realize how to use phoenix and will use them properly whether or not they're 35 seconds or 45 seconds build time.
 
TheResidentEvil said:
I... All i know is running stalkers around your base between expo and main because mutas are all over it sucks. a lot. Hydras are even faster than stalkers on creep. 1 cannon/spore in the minerals..kills phoenix harass. 1 of those against mutas, the mutas just kill it.
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I totally agree on the first point. I have even made it a point to get early blink in order to be able to blink up and down cliffs to chase down muties and it still doesn't work. they are too damn mobile, which is different than fast. The problem with stalkers chasing down mutas in mineral lines is that stalkers have issues navigating the terrain that mutas don't.

As for a spore colony or a canon being enough to stop 3 or 4 phoenix harassing your mineral line I totally disagree. Protoss shields recharge at a ridiculously fast rate in SCII, and I'm more than happy to dart in and pick off 2 drones/probes and retreat and only sacrifice a some shields. Plus just the fear of doing so is usually enough to keep opponents in check, wasting money on spore colonies, or going mass hydra/stalker to deal with my phoenix.
 
I can't believe no one mentioned this but....JINROS IN THE ROUND OF 4 IN GSL SEASON 3! SEMIFINALS!

JINRO FIGHTING!
 
I'm not sure what's all the hype about the fungus... I just tried a coop game vs hard ai, and the hard ai used fungal growth to stop my bc, and they stopped.
 
Deluded said:
i assume you mean the competition? No, it was on regular SC2 with coop game.
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? PTR is public test realm. The aforementioned changes are live on the PTR and not in the regular game. They are the planned changes for 1.2 which hasn't gone live yet.
 
Is anyone on here familiar with the term "powering"?

I've heard it said several times during the GSLs and Tasteless finally made a small reference to what it is during a cast. From what little he said it sounds like the practice of waiting until you have enough resources to buy, say, 3 gateways and laying them all down at once, vs. buying each one as you have the money. According to the casters (Tasteless and Artosis) by powering you actually end up with more units more quickly and it has the added benefit of giving you waves of units rather than trickling them in one at a time.

I've practiced this a little bit, but I'm finding the timings difficult. Does anyone know of a guide anywhere that discusses this topic?
 
petertew said:
Is anyone on here familiar with the term "powering"?

I've heard it said several times during the GSLs and Tasteless finally made a small reference to what it is during a cast. From what little he said it sounds like the practice of waiting until you have enough resources to buy, say, 3 gateways and laying them all down at once, vs. buying each one as you have the money. According to the casters (Tasteless and Artosis) by powering you actually end up with more units more quickly and it has the added benefit of giving you waves of units rather than trickling them in one at a time.

I've practiced this a little bit, but I'm finding the timings difficult. Does anyone know of a guide anywhere that discusses this topic?
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Powering is what the Terran Mega-rax all-in is built around. 1 base and you build a single rax and wall-in. Then wait for 750 minerals while pumping out only SCVs and marines. Then you drop 5 more rax at the same time. During rax construction you build your OC. Start pumping marines. If it isn't scouted it is a very potent all-in because you can mass a shitload of marines very quickly.

The "powering" piece comes from having the 5 additional rax down at the same time. That way you get 6 marines every 25 seconds. The math has been done (you can find it over at the TL SC2 strategy forums) and you can get a single marine or two out faster this way instead of staggering the rax and building every time you have 150 minerals. Those extra marines can often be the difference in the mega-rax failing or not. I use mega-rax vs. zerg every blue moon if I'm not in the mood to heavy harass. The difference is I proxy the other 5 rax then laugh as the zerg does a 14 hatch. :D
 
helpakidgrow said:
Can't wait till they fix Terran then the game will be a million times better :(
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Sigh. People going to whine about mules too, so if they nerf mules what else do Terrans have? We can't keep up in mineral collection due to chrono boost / larvae.
 
petertew said:
The only thing I'd say is broken is SCV repairing. Blizzard is addressing this in 1.2 though; after that they feel fine to me.
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Agreed. I really don't think there's anything pressing wrong after that. I'm sure other things will get revealed as the meta game evolves, but right now things seem good.
 
005professor.png


Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875
 
OK, I was sad to see Jinra lose in the GSL 3, especially as badly as he did, but man, that Protoss play by oGsMC was inspired. Freaking force fields of doom.
 
petertew said:
OK, I was sad to see Jinra lose in the GSL 3, especially as badly as he did, but man, that Protoss play by oGsMC was inspired. Freaking force fields of doom.
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Yeah I was a little disappointed in how it turned out, but apparently they play each other all the time so I suppose he had strategies prepared to beat Jinro. A lot of people chose MC to win the 1st and 2nd GSL tournaments, so we shouldn't be surprised.

On the other side of the spectrum, no expected Jinro to go this far, and he did really damn well, way better than Idra has ever done. I'm sure he's a little disappointed, but he also has to be DAMN proud of himself.
 
Yeah I was sad to see that go the way it did. Felt bad for Jinro.

That said, he's secured code S and gotten farther than any other foreigner so we're sure to see plenty more of him in future tournaments :D

Sidenote: I'm hoping for MC to frickin steamroll Rain.
 
Indeed. oGsMC simply outplayed his opponent with perfect timing and forcefield placements. Though I'm sad to see Jinro go down so handily, at least we finally get to see a Protoss in the finals.
 
Yea I was expecting Jinro to be more prepared for MC's early game aggression. Nice to see protoss owning terran in the early game though as you dont see that very often.
 
he said himself that he plays mc all the time and only wins like 1 in 20 games, so it was already known he would be a huge underdog. his best chance was probably that thor rush, too bad the dt build countered it completely. either way he's in top half of s class, so that's already a huge credit to tl and western players, it took 3 seasons for someone outside to make it this far.

like how artosis was saying the skill of ogsmc is just at a completely different level compared to the rest of the protoss in this tourney, he's also top 20 world ladder rank along with those from nex/fou/prime/im/root, and other beasts like sjow/mini/slosho. it would be nice for more of those euro players in top 100 to show up and even out the field, instead of this dominating korean bracket that doesn't really have so many great players, pretty sure many of them could make ro64 easily.
 
you sometimes cant have more than 2 SCVs for one vespian gas plant, I notice that the third one stands still doing nothing.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
It depends on the geyser. Some are far enough for 3 to be 100% efficient in terms of scaling. Either way, 2 is not sufficient at all.
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Yes but Im speaking for the closest distance a gas can be next to a command center. If I have double gas with 3 probes each and have excess gas, I usually pull 1 off each gas instead of 2 off of 1 gas.

It's much like how 3 probes per mineral patch is a little inefficient compared to 2.
 
mas said:
he said himself that he plays mc all the time and only wins like 1 in 20 games, so it was already known he would be a huge underdog. his best chance was probably that thor rush, too bad the dt build countered it completely. either way he's in top half of s class, so that's already a huge credit to tl and western players, it took 3 seasons for someone outside to make it this far.

like how artosis was saying the skill of ogsmc is just at a completely different level compared to the rest of the protoss in this tourney, he's also top 20 world ladder rank along with those from nex/fou/prime/im/root, and other beasts like sjow/mini/slosho. it would be nice for more of those euro players in top 100 to show up and even out the field, instead of this dominating korean bracket that doesn't really have so many great players, pretty sure many of them could make ro64 easily.
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I'm a few days late but Jinro's matches vs MC show how imbalanced the warp gate is.

Before people start going batshit crazy that I just said Protoss is imba keep this in mind: Protoss is the ONLY race that can FE with absolutely ZERO penalty and the Warp Gate is the reason why. When Protoss FE they get their first round of gateway units and can immediately double that number with warp gate thus protecting their expansion or adding crazy early pressure against a FE Zerg or FE Terran. Not to mention with a single pylon they can constantly warp in a shit ton of reinforcements right next to the battle. Zerg and Terran cannot do any of that.

Jinro lost to because Terran can not out macro a Protoss or Zerg opponent if both players are equally skilled. Now I know somebody will go what about Jinro's Ro8 TvP? Jinro won macro games against Protoss during Ro8 because his macro skills were just flat out better then his opponent and his opponent made some very bad decisions. However, after going up 2-0 Jinro struggled and damn near lost because the Protoss decided to NOT try to out macro him and abused Warp Gates instead.

Mark my words: Warp Gate will get nerfed in the future especially if MC wins GSL3.

People complain that TSL_Rain cheesed his way to the GSL finals and that he really isn't all that good. I just laugh at stupid shit like that. Rain did exactly what I would do as Terran with the game in its current form: Try to end the game in the first 12 minutes. If Terran doesn't end the game versus Protoss in the first 12 minutes or do heavy damage during that time to the Protoss economy, they WILL lose unless the Protoss player makes some huge blunder like the end of Jinro's Ro8 set 5.

If TSL_Rain goes for the throat and tries to end every game in the first 12 minutes or does heavy harass during those first 12 minutes to keep the Protoss economy in check, he will win. If Rain tries to out macro MC he will lose.

My pick: oGsMC over TSL_Rain 4-2.

PS: Don't take anything I said as a slight against oGsMC and his skill level. Part of being a great player is knowing everything about your race and abusing whatever you can in order to get the win and MC does that incredibly well. A Warp Gate nerf will not hurt him or turn him into a mere mortal gamer. He will simply adapt and continue crushing other peoples dreams.
 
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