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Solution to piracy?

damonposey said:
It just seems like digital anarchy, and I think as we realize this, the general progression of countermeasures against piracy will be to institute some sort of order on an ISP or backbone level.
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You even thinking about that as a valid option makes me shudder.

Very slippery slope there sir.

I apologize as I never really intended to steer this discussion in this path, and I'll get off my soap box now.
 
you don't hear about people cracking the garbage games that aren't worth playing,It is always the newest and best games.So the games are good it is just that people are so damn cheap and they would rather DL the game instead of buying it.
Hey look I can pay $50 for this game or I can buy a new g5 mouse.Buy the mouse DL the game.It is the irresponsible pc gamers that are ruining pc gaming.Console gaming goes thru the same thing but at the rate that pc gaming is going the gamers may just kill the pc gaming experience.
 
Belgain Roffles said:
You even thinking about that as a valid option makes me shudder.

Very slippery slope there sir.

I apologize as I never really intended to steer this discussion in this path, and I'll get off my soap box now.
Click to expand...

as a brilliant visionary I do cause people to shudder in awe. my apologies :D
 
It's not awe, it's horror.

The words, in the order you string them together, are frightening with their long term implications.

Net-neutrality is a good thing. I don't want to give the ISPs any room to start, <cough> continue, down that road. Although if they can shave another 10ms off my TF2 ping...
 
sparks said:
cd keys. I have never figured this out.
I see cd key generators everywhere. IF the company knows what keys it has then how the hell can a generator work?
It can't.
These idiots are not keeping track of anything and then blame piracy for everything.

COD4 single player, that is what the piracy was about not online where they check the keys or do they?


Take BF2 I had to register and create an account before playing. Can they do that with a key generator? They shouldn't but since I don't work for them I dont know.
But really they sell key 1 1111 11 and NOT 2 2222 2222 then if you try to play with that number you shouldn't be able to.
.
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Keygens are not actual Key Generators. They are just a little proggy that pulls up keys from a list. What the pirates do is open the dll or the .exe that is responisible for the key check and reverse engineer a few of them, put them in a list and make a neato little proggy for displaying them.

COD4.. exactly. How can 14,000 people be allowed to play with the same exact CD-Key that they got off the same warez release?

And yes, BF2 had a great system in place to make sure we all were playing with our own copy of BF2.
 
Decibel said:
It's not awe, it's horror.

The words, in the order you string them together, are frightening with their long term implications.

Net-neutrality is a good thing. I don't want to give the ISPs any room to start, <cough> continue, down that road. Although if they can shave another 10ms off my TF2 ping...
Click to expand...

ok fine its horrific. there i said it!

but seriously, the biggest problem is the same problem with drugs and illegal firearms. distribution. but with software on the internet its much easier to distribute. If you limit the ability for the material to get distributed, then you're making a huge impact on piracy. copy protection on the game itself is not the answer, at least we can mostly agree on that small thing.
 
And yes, BF2 had a great system in place to make sure we all were playing with our own copy of BF2.[/QUOTE]

Yes BF2 and Steam were real winners and should be used as models. Check out how many legit gamers still play BF2 online and you'll understand maybe. Anyone who opposes BF2 or Steams system is a sure pirate in some way or another.
Sorry to say but if you cant log onto an account online to verify your access using dial, or broadband or whataver then YOU SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING PC GAMES.
I love these threads, it amazes me how many people are so opposed to security measures just for their own personal gains. If you dont have a goddamn internet connection then you dont have the required hardware for the game enough said. You have a problem with the security? then dont buy the game, but dont give stupid ridiculous reasons as to why single player games should not be subject to online verification.

Bottom line is piracy is stealing and piracy is robbing the developer of their hard earned cash.
 
ofcourse you hear all the usual comments in this thread.

"Make good games"

"Make Cheap Games".

even on this board i'm amazing at how open people are about their piracy..

eg.. in the discussion about Atari's Alone in the Dark..

turdhat said:
I was going to purchase this game on launch day sight unseen. NOW, I am going to download the "unoffical demo" to see if it is bad 1st.
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either people don't care they are doing somethign wrong or they don't really know (i find it hard to believe anyone could seriously not know downloading a game for free isn't wrong)


but the real way to beat piracy is to specifically make games for people that actually buy games..there was a great Sins of the SOlar empire dev discussion on tthat tackles this idea of reducing piracy head on..


take UT3 for example, look at that genre (COD4, Crysis etc..) those tend to be the most pirated games.. If they are pirated so much they need to stop making those kind of high profile games catering to those that pirate..

Instead look at the Indepth RTS community (SoSE, Galactic CIV, Theatres of War etc..), they tend to buy their games.. Same with the Sim community (Silent Hunter series etc..) the more focused, more mature communities tend to know the value of their dollar.. That money spent into the system means more games coming out of the system.. And even though they aren't the largest communities, at least you know they will put out their money for your product if its good.. (and they just don't buy those that are bad, or play legit demos) ... you can read the stardock post here

which is actually kindof funny, people pirated the big budget games they love to play(COD4/UT3/Crysis etc..) are probably actually limiting these types of games in the future.. we already know there won't be a future UT4 and Infinity Ward showed some pretty amazing disgust for the COD4 pirating figures.. I'm actually a little suprised COD5 is even going to come out ont he PC..

if only games are made that people buy (the Genres) then the industry may just self-correct itself.. but as long as you have high profile/high budget games.. its always going to be a problem because people just want to get something for nothing, especially that cool new game.. (any other excuse is just that.. any excuse to get it for free)

In the end Pirates will probably end up Self Imploding on itself by not paying for the games they love..
 
darklcd said:
Completely agree. Counterstrike has been retail for what, 8 years now, and people are still buying accounts. The fact is that when a game is good enough to buy, people will buy it.
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That's because you need to play online to have fun with CS and to play online, you need a CD-Key.

A game like Counter-Strikes comes what? Every 20 years? When was the last FPS became as popular as CS? Never because CS is the most popular online shooter ever.

So you're saying that solid single player games like Mass Effect, Bioshock, Crysis, GoW, Oblivion aren't worth buying because they aren't CS or Starcraft or Diablo? But you're half right that if they make a good game, people will buy it. For example, Crysis sold 1.5 million and that's very good for a video game. However, if you take privacy away, I am guessing that it could have sold 3 or 4 million by now.

Not everyone can make a revolutionary and addictive game like CS. If a game like CS is what makes gamers buy the game, then just release one PC game every 10 years because thats how long it takes for a revolutionary game to come out. WoW was the last game to do so.

Now that development cost is so damn high, you can't take any gambles. To even gain recognition from the media and gamers, your game needs to be technically advanced, and graphically amazing. That's why there are so many sequels because companies don't want to make original IPs that may or may not become the next counterstrike and chances are, 99% of the time, that game will never be as popular as CS.

I read the first few pages and I feel like people are just thinking from their own point of view. People say that they won't buy a game because they have this antipiracy protection or that. Yea, it might bug you but for every gamer like you who buys the game, there are many more who download the game. I heard that for Crysis, for every 1 copy sold, there were 15 copies downloaded(or was it 40 copies downloaded?). One of the directors said the truth. People would rather buy the hardware than the software because you can just download the software. Why would you buy the software for $50 when you can use the $50 towards a new CPU or graphics card? I know what he said was true because I felt that way too. Should I buy the game or should I just use the money to upgrade? My answer was upgrade 100% of the time.

And those who say that they have a dial up connection or doesn't have internet 24/7, how rare are you? Who plays a game like Crysis that needs super highend computer parts, is probably a tech geek doesn't even have broadband? Yea, you're pretty damn rare. Even if the developers insert a internet connection requirement for you to play single player, and you can't play, they wouldn't care because only a handful of gamers don't have broadband but they would reap in millions they would have lost if they didn't have that requirement. I am actually surprised that companies don't use this technique nowadays.

Most of the successful games people mentioning have one thing in common: they are online based. I heard Guild Wars, Battlefield, CS, and a few others get mentioned and they are all ONLINE GAMES. If you don't play online, those games are useless. And playing online is essentially the same as requiring an internet connection for single player because you need a legit key to play online with Guild Wars, CS, Battlefield, Starcraft, Diablo, etc.

Basically, single player games are the ones that get screwed, are pirated the most, and have the most intrusive protections. That's why there are so few exclusive single player PC games because they get pirated. Games like Oblivion, Bioshock, GoW are also on console where they sell more.

People can deny all they want that PC gaming is not dying but every year, we get less and less exclusives and more and more developers preferring console development instead. It may never fully die because there will always be good games coming out just less and less.

Part of the problem is the structure and backbone of PC gaming in general. Every year, the games being released look better and better but at a cost: hardware. You'd have to upgrade way more often than buying a new console and hardware costs a lot. There aren't a lot of people who can keep up with the costs and thus, people would rather upgrade their hardware than to buy the games for $50 each.
 
SentToSchool said:
A game like Counter-Strikes comes what? Every 20 years? When was the last FPS became as popular as CS? Never because CS is the most popular online shooter ever.
Click to expand...

Yeah and that doesn't say a whole lot about the gaming industry, the fact that 2 college kids made arguably the best shooter ever when there are companies throwing out hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to make mediocre games. The fact is some of the best games that people are playing today have one thing in common, GAMEPLAY. Look at CS, WoW, Diablo 2, there are tons of people playing these games, and an old outdated system can play these games without a sweat. Too many companies concentrate on making "pretty looking" games instead of focusing on the thing that counts, gameplay. So if I had games that I knew I would get years of good gameplay and enjoyment out of I would shell out the dough, but when a lot of games come out and it takes you a few days to beat single player and multiplayer is lackluster, yeah, a lot of people are going to pirate.
 
ok well what about music and movies? o and software? they all get pirated just as much as games yet they still make a bit of profit. how come?
 
jonneymendoza said:
ok well what about music and movies? o and software? they all get pirated just as much as games yet they still make a bit of profit. how come?
Click to expand...

Because people are going to pirate, bottom line. Does it mean they should make a shit product or no product at all because some people are going to pirate, probably not.
 
I think game studios and editors are going about the problem in a wrong way altogether. The market model being followed is mostly the same that has been around since the days before digital mediums and digital distribution.

I believe the key point here is that piracy isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Having stuff without paying is just too good a deal to pass up for a lot of people.

Let's look at the example of ET:Wolfenstein. It's a great game that has been released totally free. They managed to get a huge install base - why has this enormous potential never been realized (except indirectly to boost sales for ET:Quakewars)? The most obvious way is through advertising but I'm sure there are far more creative people in the world than me that can think up of innovative ways. In today's information world, a direct link to someone is valuable. Capitalize on it.

The key here is to subdivide your audience into groups, and develop different solutions to target different groups.

For example:

John wants to pay? cool here's your game, no strings attached.

John doesn't want to pay? no problem, would you mind looking at some ads then? Maybe receiving some discount offers even? Maybe even once you've clocked enough hours in the game we'll just turn the ads off - or keep them on and accumulate credits to buy more stuff from us (other games, expansions, premium content, ...)

Still no good for you? how about you bring a friend into the game and as soon as he clocks X number of hours in the game get payed for it (in credits of course)? Heck bring 10 and the game is yours, no strings attached.

and so on...

There will always be people that will go through all the hassle they need to cheat the system, but that's fine and something that can't be avoided - but even then they will be there playing your game and making it popular. For all the rest, they can still earn you money, either by paying the old fashioned way, by being 'selling' games for you or simply by spending a bit of game time looking at stuff pushed to them. Again, I'm sure people more qualified than me would be able to find better and more efficient ways to do this.

Publishers need to stop looking at all those people playing their game illegally as lost income, and start looking at them as potential income. Also, people will usually be much more agreeable to doing things your way if you reward them for doing it right (as opposed to punishing them if they do it wrong).

Oh, having quality products helps immensely as well.
 
Wally said:
The solution to piracy is making games that're worth buying. There's a strong correlation between the frequency with which a game is pirated, and how generic and uninspired it is.
Click to expand...

You speak of great wisdom:)

What deserves money gets money! Thats whats so awesome about this industry!
 
Wally said:
The solution to piracy is making games that're worth buying. There's a strong correlation between the frequency with which a game is pirated, and how generic and uninspired it is.
Click to expand...

cite your source.

i hear a lot of people saying to make games cheaper, or to remove the anti-piracy. those might make the idealistic guys like some here buy a game or two, but then they lose tons of money off of sales AND their games are pirated faster.

there will always be piracy. it is a monster which always exists. the funniest part is all the people here who pirate games who use anger to justify it. "this game sucks, why should i waste money to play it?" "the anti-piracy sucks on this game, i'll just get past it w/ a crack"

as shitty as it is, breaking the rules is breaking the rules, and no matter how cheap the make the games, how open they are for stealing, people will continue to steal them and continue to crack them.

for the moment, online play is a good weapon against piracy, but that'll change soon enough, and we'll need something else.
 
Dome said:
the funniest part is all the people here who pirate games who use anger to justify it. "the anti-piracy sucks on this game, i'll just get past it w/ a crack"
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Pirates are not complaining about that, as they don't even have to deal with it.
 
pothb said:
That isn't the solution, per se, it'll keep it down though, I believe. I mean, if you make a game that is worth buying, people'll buy it.Not everyone, but lots will.
Click to expand...

the people that pirate it, wouldn't have bought it most time anyway. so the company isn't losing out on profit and and they are actually advertising.

Sure it "bothers" a company when people pirate a game.

lets say that 30 percent of gamers would buy a game, and 20 percent would pirate, and 50 percent not buy.

if pirating weren't available their sales would barely increase in my opinion.

also alot of piraters play online games........ which acnt be pirated(except for private servers)

i dunno, i think pirating is inevitable, dont piss off the real buyers. make good games and people will buy them, make crappy ones and no one will buy it, some will pirate it and thats the end
 
if there are and have been multi-million dollar companies with teams of extremely smart engineers who still have yet to figure out the solution to piracy, i highly doubt i bunch of hardforumers will be able to lol.. there is no "solution"... except of course for the requirement to be online, look at valve, who is pirating TF2? not that i would know if it's possible or not but seems to me not many are
 
When I think about it, steam is the most likely solution to stop piracy. If you have your game exclusively available on steam or need to register through steam, it's fairly unlikely that your average joe will go about pirating. It also allows you the benefit of not needing a disk to play, automatically updates your game, and lets you take it wherever you go (as long as you have the internet). The only problem with steam is you need to be online to play singleplayer games unless you switch to offline mode before your internet gets disconnected. I am also more inclined to play steam games more often because they start up so quickly and they are all there waiting for me to play at a double-clicks notice. The only problem is if your account gets hacked somehow you are COMPLETELY screwed and you could potentially lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of games. It almost happened to me once, it wouldn't let me log into my account but luckily it got sorted out due to my persistence with VALVe.
 
pothb said:
That isn't the solution, per se, it'll keep it down though, I believe. I mean, if you make a game that is worth buying, people'll buy it.Not everyone, but lots will.
Click to expand...

Just look at SC2, I bet that thing is going to sell like hotcakes.

No doubt WoW garnered interest from people for other Blizzard products.

@Techx: There are people pirating TF2 actually, its sad but true, although not very much are.
 
Multiplayer component is probably the only solution to piracy-- if a user can install it, it can be cracked. You'll need a valid key to play online, and just about everyone will want to do so, so they'll eventually buy the game (assuming its a good game). Steam is great for these sorts of things and is probably going to be how most sales take place in the future.
 
inotocracy said:
Multiplayer component is probably the only solution to piracy-- if a user can install it, it can be cracked. You'll need a valid key to play online, and just about everyone will want to do so, so they'll eventually buy the game (assuming its a good game). Steam is great for these sorts of things and is probably going to be how most sales take place in the future.
Click to expand...

Steam and multiplayer can be (and is) cracked/bypassed granted not as easily.

Valve seems to have something with Steam as far as reducing the amount of piracy especially for MP, but eliminating piracy? That won&#8217;t happen anytime soon. Don&#8217;t misinterpret my words, I&#8217;m sure 80% of the 1.2 million users on steam are legit but there are those that have not legally purchased games on steam or are playing mp with fake keys.
 
Boardin087 said:
the people that pirate it, wouldn't have bought it most time anyway. so the company isn't losing out on profit and and they are actually advertising.

Sure it "bothers" a company when people pirate a game.

lets say that 30 percent of gamers would buy a game, and 20 percent would pirate, and 50 percent not buy.

if pirating weren't available their sales would barely increase in my opinion.
Click to expand...

WHAT THE HELL MAKES U THINK U CAN MAKE AN IDIOTIC BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE THAT? DO U HAVE ANY PROOF SHOWING THAT?
IF YOU DIDNT BUY IT THEN YOU DONT DESERVE TO PLAY IT.
 
refraxion said:
Just look at SC2, I bet that thing is going to sell like hotcakes.
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sorry man, StarControl 2 did sell like hotcakes. its considered one of the best 1992 games, and one of the best games ever!

Stardock has a good piracy answer.
But ill be damned if I will ever pay for M$ live! $50 bucks a year ti have voice chat in the game!? sorry, its already free.
the whole Live! thing for PC is a total waist. Any developer who signs up for it deservs to be taken out back quietly.......
Live! wants to take features that are already part of many games and are free, and make you pay for them. Its not "added" value, its a rip off.
 
DangerousMan said:
Steam and multiplayer can be (and is) cracked/bypassed granted not as easily.

Valve seems to have something with Steam as far as reducing the amount of piracy especially for MP, but eliminating piracy? That won’t happen anytime soon. Don’t misinterpret my words, I’m sure 80% of the 1.2 million users on steam are legit but there are those that have not legally purchased games on steam or are playing mp with fake keys.
Click to expand...

There will never, ever be a 100% solution to piracy, but I bet the number of pirated games on Steam (the ones that are played over the net) are due to people's accounts being compromised.

ps: yes I know some games from Steam have been ripped completely (e.g. HL2)
 
My solution to defeat piracy would be instead of selling games, give them away for free. When was the last time you stole something that was free.......
 
MrHood22 said:
My solution to defeat piracy would be instead of selling games, give them away for free. When was the last time you stole something that was free.......
Click to expand...

I sense a slight flaw in that plan... I cant quite put my finger on it though :confused: :p
 
MrHood22 said:
My solution to defeat piracy would be instead of selling games, give them away for free. When was the last time you stole something that was free.......
Click to expand...

Now your thinking, but most still would be to lazy to get a free copy so they will still pirate it. I dont know if it would be called pirating though.
 
How to make net-connected single player games attractive:

Offer single-player content updates online. You buy the game, register your CD key to an account, and in exchange you get additional levels, weapons, models, whatever available for download. Give people a reason to connect to the servers other than simply calling home.

You'll still have the core game pirated, but people who really like the game will have to buy a copy to get the most out of it, single player or multi.

edit: whether it impacts sales or not, piracy is lame. If you like the game enough to play it more than ten minutes, BUY IT.

Things to remember before you pirate: You're not entitled to play every game on the market. It's not okay to do it just because you wouldn't buy it anyway. A group of people worked very hard for a long time to produce that game, and you expect them to give it away for your enjoyment? And of course, if all the good games get pirated while Wal-Mart is selling Deer Hunter 27 like hot-cakes, which kind of game do you think will inspire new games?
 
damonposey said:
Ok, you're talking about current copy protection on games. no ones going to argue with you there. It's obviously not the way to combat piracy. That's why I'm just throwing this new idea out there.

I don't even know enough about internet protocols and packets to suggest a complete idea of what I'm talking about. Like I said before I just see ISPs as airports, but with no security in place. people do what they want, get what they want, and these legitimate ISPs channel the illegal content onto peoples computers, no questions asked. It just seems like digital anarchy, and I think as we realize this, the general progression of countermeasures against piracy will be to institute some sort of order on an ISP or backbone level.
Click to expand...

I don't think forcing ISP's to be responsible for anti-piracy is logical. That's like making the USPS responsible for every illegal thing that goes through the mail.
Plus.. I don't think inspecting every single packet through a magical anti-piracy routine would be very good for the general speed of the internet if even possible
 
magnetik said:
I don't think forcing ISP's to be responsible for anti-piracy is logical. That's like making the USPS responsible for every illegal thing that goes through the mail.
Plus.. I don't think inspecting every single packet through a magical anti-piracy routine would be very good for the general speed of the internet.
Click to expand...

Or any individual who engages in "pirate-like" activities.

How does an ISP differentiate between an illegal copy and a fair use backup copy being uploaded to a personally-owned server?
 
Steam seems like the best solution. I haven't played on a laptop so i dont know to much about the offline play. What should happen is no matter what you should be able to play a game after the one time activation. ya it sucks to have to get a connection but what % are we talking about? I don't think it could be THAT high.
 
Xaeos said:
Want to lower piracy? Lower the prices on your games. Provide content that makes me want to support you. Remove all technical antipiracy protection. Develop cross platform. Don't lock me into anything. I don't want your permission to run what I paid for. I don't want a content distribution system that runs in the background all the time, that makes sure that I'm legit.

Check out savage2.s2games.com for a great example of how this system works. Client is free. CD key costs $30. Install anywhere, anytime. Works on Linux too. Stardock is another great company - Price their games reasonably, no copy protection, and people choose to buy them because they ask politely and provide a quality product.
Click to expand...

well said!
 
Look everyone. pc piracy has been going for 10+ years. when hl1 came out that got cracked very easily YET it still sold millions of copies. why? because it was a fucking great game thats why.

people will pay for a high quality game like half life but not on a game like rainbow six vegas 2 :D HL diddnt have no protection crap in the game. thats how mass effect should of been like.
 
TheMadHatterXxX said:
WHAT THE HELL MAKES U THINK U CAN MAKE AN IDIOTIC BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE THAT? DO U HAVE ANY PROOF SHOWING THAT?
IF YOU DIDNT BUY IT THEN YOU DONT DESERVE TO PLAY IT.
Click to expand...

Boardin087 said:
the people that pirate it, wouldn't have bought it most time anyway. so the company isn't losing out on profit and and they are actually advertising.

Sure it "bothers" a company when people pirate a game.

lets say that 30 percent of gamers would buy a game, and 20 percent would pirate, and 50 percent not buy.

if pirating weren't available their sales would barely increase in my opinion.

also alot of piraters play online games........ which acnt be pirated(except for private servers)

i dunno, i think pirating is inevitable, dont piss off the real buyers. make good games and people will buy them, make crappy ones and no one will buy it, some will pirate it and thats the end
Click to expand...

nice selective quote. thought it was understood the whole post was opinion.

besides when making this post i used a sample size of about 10 of my friends and analyzed their actions. So there I have proof, about as much proof as half the statistics out there anyway.

No but really.......... based on my friends who pirate everything (and i guess my own actions, i morally WOULD pirate but sadly no games are better than WoW and TF2 and for me so there isn't even anything worth pirating lol as I have played basicly just these two games since WoW's debut. Oh and WC3) is where i make those OPINIONATED BLANKET STATEMENTS. ill put a freaking DISCLAIMER ON ALL MY POSTS SAYING NOT ALL THINGS SAID BY ME ARE 100 PERCENT INFALLIBLE. grow up dude
 
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