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Like I said, I'm not doubting your measurement. But I know what I am seeing here. Game mode on my display is not working as it should be. There is no difference between PC and game mode. You say you can feel it? Then I assure you I could as well. If you're saying the input lag in game mode went down from the 1006 firmware, then something is wrong with my current firmware. I have 1203 and 1207 downloaded, but don't know how to trick the TV into forcing the update since they're older than 1209.
EDIT: Are you able to test with your Leo to see if there is a difference between 4K and 1080p please? I promise you on my display, there is a definite difference.
I had weird mouse lag in game and pc mode on my 6500 so I sold it. Only happened after the firmware was upgraded a few times. It was NOT there with shipping firmware or the 2nd update. The 3rd update it was just ... terrible. So it's gone.
I had to disable some of the lag inducing features that got re-enabled by the update. After that it was fine.
Try games at native 4k in game mode with an hdmi cord, dont have another display connected. What your doing with these tests cloning displays and extend desktops at two different resolutions wont work to determine input lag.
You should feel a difference between pc and game mode if your sensitive to input lag. Nothing bad happened with firmware 1209 for game mode. I feel no difference between 1080p and 4k for input lag in game mode.
I had weird mouse lag in game and pc mode on my 6500 so I sold it. Only happened after the firmware was upgraded a few times. It was NOT there with shipping firmware or the 2nd update. The 3rd update it was just ... terrible. So it's gone.
Earlier I'd asked about Sharpness Settings and someone said that "50" on PC was good? I'm using it as a production monitor and less so for gaming so I don't really care for motion but accurate pixel displays are important, so I don't want sharpness artifacts. However, I notice that turning down sharpness improves the results at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php
Right now I have sharpness set at 0 and it seems good. Beyond my subjective "good" I just want 0 hardware sharpening to be happening and it seems 0 is it, whereas before I thought 0 was blurring the pixels which doesn't really make sense. Then again, I was also not on UHD color before and this was likely causing issues.
I thought I remember someone going through the same deal... did you ever get a new display? If I get the 48", I am pretty sure I'm either going to leave it alone with the boxed firmware or update it myself to the latest via USB.
50 on PC should be native resolution with nothing applied... at least that's what someone said. 0 in game mode = 50 in PC mode.
That's what I've been doing. I only hook up the Catleap when I tried to compare things.
On the boxed firmware, I felt a difference between PC and game mode - barely. My TV updated to 1203, then to 1209 by itself. Since then, I feel no difference between the two. Game mode is slow compared to the Catleap when used by themselves - the response time is definitely longer on the 7500. I can't make this stuff up guys.
When comparing 1080p and 4K, I do feel a difference. I am using a KableDirekt HDMI cable (very high quality) at 6'. I wish I had gotten the 3' because I forgot about the 6' One Connect Mini box adding length, but I don't think that's making the difference. I also tried my Amazon 6' cable and the result was the same.
I am not seeing it on the Leo Bodnar lag tester or my own personal experience in regards to lag increasing in game mode.
What is the lag times on the Catleap? I thought it was mid 20's so it should feel almost identical to the samsung in game mode...
That's what I've been doing. I only hook up the Catleap when I tried to compare things.
On the boxed firmware, I felt a difference between PC and game mode - barely. My TV updated to 1203, then to 1209 by itself. Since then, I feel no difference between the two. Game mode is slow compared to the Catleap when used by themselves - the response time is definitely longer on the 7500. I can't make this stuff up guys.
When comparing 1080p and 4K, I do feel a difference. I am using a KableDirekt HDMI cable (very high quality) at 6'. I wish I had gotten the 3' because I forgot about the 6' One Connect Mini box adding length, but I don't think that's making the difference. I also tried my Amazon 6' cable and the result was the same.
Did you try to see if Smart LED is enabled on Game Mode? I didn't realize it, but with 1209, it was enabled when previously it was not. Also, I noticed that for my GTX 670, when running desktop at 4k 30hz, changing resolution in games to 1080P/60, the FPS were locked at 30fps max. I had to change to 1080P/60 in Windows, only then would the game run at 60fps. The refresh rate is locked to whatever the desktop resolution/rate is at.
I don't think the firmware had anything to do with the lag other than enabling processing options that were not possible previously. What is possible is that there's a hardware defect that got triggered by the 1209 update. Or more likely, it added additional processing options that has to be turned off manually.
Like I showed in that YouTube video I posted, everything is turned off. In game mode the backlight still turns off on dark screens, but doesn't in PC mode.
I wish I hadn't updated mine before doing more thorough testing. I'm loving the improvements to Game mode and all of the options in terms of features, but the initial firmware did seem like a speed demon in terms of lag. It would be nice to get some hard numbers to back all of this up. However, I don't want to find out so badly that I'm willing to go through the trouble of getting yet another display. Not with other people continuing to purchase these.
I also wish that praxis would check back in - really curious about his theory regarding a possible panel lottery or the newer runs being superior. I haven't see any other suppositions regarding those things and I'm not sure what would have caused such a huge visual discrepancy between his old and new units.
I wish I hadn't updated mine before doing more thorough testing. I'm loving the improvements to Game mode and all of the options in terms of features, but the initial firmware did seem like a speed demon in terms of lag. It would be nice to get some hard numbers to back all of this up. However, I don't want to find out so badly that I'm willing to go through the trouble of getting yet another display. Not with other people continuing to purchase these.
I also wish that praxis would check back in - really curious about his theory regarding a possible panel lottery or the newer runs being superior. I haven't see any other suppositions regarding those things and I'm not sure what would have caused such a huge visual discrepancy between his old and new units.
I posted HARD numbers for every firmware including the initial firmware that came with the tv. The lag tester doesnt lie guys.... you got hard numbers with all of my previous posts with numbers.
Is the Smart LED option only available in the JU7100/7500? I don't recall seeing it in the JU6500 menus.
What does it mean by "turning off?" Does that mean the cursor becomes a dull gray? It couldn't possible turn off totally if there's a white cursor on the screen.
I posted HARD numbers for every firmware including the initial firmware that came with the tv. The lag tester doesnt lie guys.... you got hard numbers with all of my previous posts with numbers.
I posted HARD numbers for every firmware including the initial firmware that came with the tv. The lag tester doesnt lie guys.... you got hard numbers with all of my previous posts with numbers.
The screen fades to complete black. If the cursor comes back, the backlight ramps to whatever I have it set to. It's not really behaving like Smart LED where the mouse turns gray - it's pure white, but the backlight is still shutting off when a black screen is introduced. I fear this is causing the lag.
Didn't you say yourself that when cloning a 1080P monitor, the lag is the same? Only when you extend the desktop with two different resolutions, that the lag occurs? Why would lag be the same when you clone it, but different when you're extending the desktop at different resolutions?
I'm not doubting what you are reporting. I think there are other causes other than the obvious one.
Yes, that's local dimming.
Yep, you did but I didn't recall if you posted them for the initial firmware (1004?) and this thread is starting to become a bear to search back through.
I don't doubt the lag tester...heck, I'm not even bothered by the lag. I know that it has gone down in Game mode and up in PC mode and I was just curious how much it had changed from the stock fw.
I'll search back through and see if I can find it.
I did post numbers for the original firmware 1004, game mode was 21.8ms and pc mode was 36ms with uhd on.
I did post numbers for the original firmware 1004, game mode was 21.8ms and pc mode was 36ms with uhd on.
The Leo Bodnar only tests the display at 1080p, and I just thought of that. Honestly, that makes it a shitty device proven by the fact that I feel no lag at 1080p, but do at 4K. Even if I were to test with a Leo, it'd likely give me the numbers you're getting.
Until you can test it running at 4K, you can't definitely say what the lag numbers are.
I hooked up my Catleap again, for one last time until a new firmware or a new display comes my way. I oriented the camera 180 degrees differently for two tests. I did this for 1080p, 1440p, and 4K. At 1440p and 4K, PC mode and game mode lagged behind in every frame. In 1080p, it was, for all intensive purposes, the same as the Catleap.
If your display works lag-free at 4K, you're a lucky dog. Mine isn't.
The Leo Bodnar only tests the display at 1080p, and I just thought of that. Honestly, that makes it a shitty device proven by the fact that I feel no lag at 1080p, but do at 4K. Even if I were to test with a Leo, it'd likely give me the numbers you're getting.
Until you can test it running at 4K, you can't definitely say what the lag numbers are.
I hooked up my Catleap again, for one last time until a new firmware or a new display comes my way. I oriented the camera 180 degrees differently for two tests. I did this for 1080p, 1440p, and 4K. At 1440p and 4K, PC mode and game mode lagged behind in every frame. In 1080p, it was, for all intensive purposes, the same as the Catleap.
If your display works lag-free at 4K, you're a lucky dog. Mine isn't.
So what happens when you extend the desktop at 1080p for both instead of cloning it? Are you still getting the same lag number?
The Leo Bodnar isnt a crappy device. Your right it checka at 1080p not 4k. One would think sending native 4k to the display would result in even less lag because it wouldnt have to be scaled.
So your felt the stock firmware ran game mode faster with 4k?
I haven't been cloning. V-Sync makes the test mostly pointless if I do this since the 7500 has it turned on and the Catleap off. I could do this test, and note that 1-2 frames of lag WILL be there regardless... but unless I have another 4K display to clone it with, like I did with the BenQ, there's no way to clone at 4K. I don't think DSR would work with multimonitors.
Even if the extended desktop setup would add lag, it doesn't explain all of my findings... those findings being:
1. The B326HK I had with a very noticeable 2-3 frame lag was evident when cloned with the Catleap and BenQ
2. The BenQ cloned with the Catleap were equal
3. Extended with the BenQ in 4K at stock firmware, it and the 7500 were equal
4. Extended with the Catleap after two firmware updates, the 7500 is 1.5-2 frames slower in 4K/1440p and equal in 1080p
Okay, maybe not crap... that would probably be true in most cases, but this is a high end TV with a great scaler. Unless some sort of post processing is turning off in 1080p on my TV making it faster at that resolution, I have no idea what is going on. I know for certain I didn't feel lag like this on the stock firmware, nor on 1203.
Are you sure dual monitor hookups are not causing lags? I've heard that using two monitors, the second may lag behind like here http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2120368/weird-lag-dual-monitors.html. The best way to test is with one monitor and a measuring device.
Edit: http://superuser.com/questions/8473...ag-of-2-screens-in-dual-screen-or-mirror-mode
This could be the reason why that one user measured a really high input lag on these panels. The second monitor always lag behind the first.
You say you can feel a difference but also say that auto motion on isnt that bad..... I am not sure how to view your opinion on lag when you think 120ms plus isnt bad.
What it comes down to is this, I can feel a difference between pc and game mode at 4k native for games, the lag tester shows there is a difference.
What video card do you have?
Looks like I was wrong. Mine does do it. The LED does turn everything to black with no activity. This is independent of Smart LED. With it on, the cursor is a dull gray. With it off, the cursor is white. That means that the unit does turn off the LED light if the screen is total black, independent of the Smart LED. There is nothing wrong with your unit.
But it doesn't do it in PC mode. The fact that it does it in game mode makes me believe that is where the additional processing time is coming from. We already knew PC mode had additional lag, but game mode was supposed to be without it. If this backlight turning off on a black screen is adding lag to basically equal PC mode, something is wrong.
Are you sure you aren't noticing any lag? Can you feel a difference from game to PC mode? Do you have any old displays to plug in real quick and just feel the mouse movement?
I'm not the best person to ask. My tolerance for lag is pretty high and I really can't tell the difference between PC and Game mode.
In any case, if 1209 broke something, then wait for the next firmware. It will get fixed.