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New Samsung 4k for everyone.
- Thread starter seanclayton
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coolhandm3
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Try games at native 4k in game mode with an hdmi cord, dont have another display connected. What your doing with these tests cloning displays and extend desktops at two different resolutions wont work to determine input lag.
You should feel a difference between pc and game mode if your sensitive to input lag. Nothing bad happened with firmware 1209 for game mode. I feel no difference between 1080p and 4k for input lag in game mode.
SixFootDuo
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I had weird mouse lag in game and pc mode on my 6500 so I sold it. Only happened after the firmware was upgraded a few times. It was NOT there with shipping firmware or the 2nd update. The 3rd update it was just ... terrible. So it's gone.
I had to disable some of the lag inducing features that got re-enabled by the update. After that it was fine.
Yeah, 1209 (maybe even 1207) reenabled some 'TV stuff.' I looked for immediately, fixed em and am back to fastness. Lot of traffic in this thread about input lag, I have not noticed the slightest change in any of it on PC mode, FWIW.
Earlier I'd asked about Sharpness Settings and someone said that "50" on PC was good? I'm using it as a production monitor and less so for gaming so I don't really care for motion but accurate pixel displays are important, so I don't want sharpness artifacts. However, I notice that turning down sharpness improves the results at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php
Right now I have sharpness set at 0 and it seems good. Beyond my subjective "good" I just want 0 hardware sharpening to be happening and it seems 0 is it, whereas before I thought 0 was blurring the pixels which doesn't really make sense. Then again, I was also not on UHD color before and this was likely causing issues.
Right now I have sharpness set at 0 and it seems good. Beyond my subjective "good" I just want 0 hardware sharpening to be happening and it seems 0 is it, whereas before I thought 0 was blurring the pixels which doesn't really make sense. Then again, I was also not on UHD color before and this was likely causing issues.
Nitemare3219
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That's what I've been doing. I only hook up the Catleap when I tried to compare things.
On the boxed firmware, I felt a difference between PC and game mode - barely. My TV updated to 1203, then to 1209 by itself. Since then, I feel no difference between the two. Game mode is slow compared to the Catleap when used by themselves - the response time is definitely longer on the 7500. I can't make this stuff up guys.
When comparing 1080p and 4K, I do feel a difference. I am using a KableDirekt HDMI cable (very high quality) at 6'. I wish I had gotten the 3' because I forgot about the 6' One Connect Mini box adding length, but I don't think that's making the difference. I also tried my Amazon 6' cable and the result was the same.
Nitemare3219
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I thought I remember someone going through the same deal... did you ever get a new display? If I get the 48", I am pretty sure I'm either going to leave it alone with the boxed firmware or update it myself to the latest via USB.
50 on PC should be native resolution with nothing applied... at least that's what someone said. 0 in game mode = 50 in PC mode.
coolhandm3
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Thats correct, lowering it under 50 in pc mode reduces sharpness. At 50 there no additonal sharpening being added.
coolhandm3
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I am not seeing it on the Leo Bodnar lag tester or my own personal experience in regards to lag increasing in game mode.
What is the lag times on the Catleap? I thought it was mid 20's so it should feel almost identical to the samsung in game mode...
Nitemare3219
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It is mid 20's. It felt identical to the BenQ which you also said was 26ms on the Leo Bodnar.
SixFootDuo had the EXACT same issue as me. He updated his firmware twice. The second time, he began having mouse lag like I am. I've also noticed mouse judder as he described in videos at time, usually only if motion interpolation is on.
Did you try to see if Smart LED is enabled on Game Mode? I didn't realize it, but with 1209, it was enabled when previously it was not. Also, I noticed that for my GTX 670, when running desktop at 4k 30hz, changing resolution in games to 1080P/60, the FPS were locked at 30fps max. I had to change to 1080P/60 in Windows, only then would the game run at 60fps. The refresh rate is locked to whatever the desktop resolution/rate is at.
I don't think the firmware had anything to do with the lag other than enabling processing options that were not possible previously. What is possible is that there's a hardware defect that got triggered by the 1209 update. Or more likely, it added additional processing options that has to be turned off manually.
Nitemare3219
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Like I showed in that YouTube video I posted, everything is turned off. In game mode the backlight still turns off on dark screens, but doesn't in PC mode.
What does it mean by "turning off?" Does that mean the cursor becomes a dull gray? It couldn't possible turn off totally if there's a white cursor on the screen.
Lateralus
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I wish I hadn't updated mine before doing more thorough testing. I'm loving the improvements to Game mode and all of the options in terms of features, but the initial firmware did seem like a speed demon in terms of lag. It would be nice to get some hard numbers to back all of this up. However, I don't want to find out so badly that I'm willing to go through the trouble of getting yet another display. Not with other people continuing to purchase these.
I also wish that praxis would check back in - really curious about his theory regarding a possible panel lottery or the newer runs being superior. I haven't see any other suppositions regarding those things and I'm not sure what would have caused such a huge visual discrepancy between his old and new units.
I also wish that praxis would check back in - really curious about his theory regarding a possible panel lottery or the newer runs being superior. I haven't see any other suppositions regarding those things and I'm not sure what would have caused such a huge visual discrepancy between his old and new units.
coolhandm3
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I posted HARD numbers for every firmware including the initial firmware that came with the tv. The lag tester doesnt lie guys.... you got hard numbers with all of my previous posts with numbers.
Panel lottery occurs if Samsung uses multiple manufacturers. However, as far as I know, all the panels are still Samsung from the same factory. While anything is possible, I would chalk it up to the fact that 1209 has changed settings, and Game Mode looks markedly better.
Subjective opinions are just that. Until there are concrete numbers to back it up, I would be wary of any claims is outside the realm of placebo. I don't doubt that some are seeing input lag, but there may be an explanation other than "the firmware" did it. The majority don't seem to have the issue, so it couldn't possibly be the firmware. It's either a hardware issue or something else.
Didn't you say yourself that when cloning a 1080P monitor, the lag is the same? Only when you extend the desktop with two different resolutions, that the lag occurs? Why would lag be the same when you clone it, but different when you're extending the desktop at different resolutions?
I'm not doubting what you are reporting. I think there are other causes other than the obvious one.
Yes, that's local dimming.
Nitemare3219
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The screen fades to complete black. If the cursor comes back, the backlight ramps to whatever I have it set to. It's not really behaving like Smart LED where the mouse turns gray - it's pure white, but the backlight is still shutting off when a black screen is introduced. I fear this is causing the lag.
I realize that. But you also have the 48" version of the TV. Something hardware wise could be different. There is a reason I am getting the experience I am, and that SixFootDuo had the same problem. Hell, even imyourzero might now just be accepting that he noticed it too.
If it wouldn't be a waste past this, I'd get a Leo Bodnar just to prove my point. But I'm not wasting $100 for a one time use.
Wasn't 1207 the firmware the introduced the major change to game mode for color? When I get the new TV, I'm probably just upgrading straight to that and hoping for the best.
Lateralus
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Yep, you did but I didn't recall if you posted them for the initial firmware (1004?) and this thread is starting to become a bear to search back through.
I don't doubt the lag tester...heck, I'm not even bothered by the lag. I know that it has gone down in Game mode and up in PC mode and I was just curious how much it had changed from the stock fw.
I'll search back through and see if I can find it.
I have the 7100. It does not do this. So if that's what yours is doing, then there's definitely something wrong. If the Smart LED is being turned on, then other processing could possibly be on as well, thus causing input lag.
Edit: Also check to see if you have any ECO mode function that turns off the screen. Try turning all Eco mode off first and test it again.
coolhandm3
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No.. I never cloned displays, thats nigthmare saying that.
I used the Leo Bodnar tester, again on all firmwares that came out for the tv including the original.
I am the only one providing concrete numbers with a tried and tested input lag tester that all sites use now.
coolhandm3
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I did post numbers for the original firmware 1004, game mode was 21.8ms and pc mode was 36ms with uhd on.
How exactly does the Leo Bodnar work regarding UHD?
I was looking to buy one myself but their online store page only lists 1080p and 720p models.
Nitemare3219
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The Leo Bodnar only tests the display at 1080p, and I just thought of that. Honestly, that makes it a shitty device proven by the fact that I feel no lag at 1080p, but do at 4K. Even if I were to test with a Leo, it'd likely give me the numbers you're getting.
Until you can test it running at 4K, you can't definitely say what the lag numbers are.
I hooked up my Catleap again, for one last time until a new firmware or a new display comes my way. I oriented the camera 180 degrees differently for two tests. I did this for 1080p, 1440p, and 4K. At 1440p and 4K, PC mode and game mode lagged behind in every frame. In 1080p, it was, for all intensive purposes, the same as the Catleap.
If your display works lag-free at 4K, you're a lucky dog. Mine isn't.
So what happens when you extend the desktop at 1080p for both instead of cloning it? Are you still getting the same lag number?
coolhandm3
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The Leo Bodnar isnt a crappy device. Your right it checka at 1080p not 4k. One would think sending native 4k to the display would result in even less lag because it wouldnt have to be scaled.
So your felt the stock firmware ran game mode faster with 4k?
Nitemare3219
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I haven't been cloning. V-Sync makes the test mostly pointless if I do this since the 7500 has it turned on and the Catleap off. I could do this test, and note that 1-2 frames of lag WILL be there regardless... but unless I have another 4K display to clone it with, like I did with the BenQ, there's no way to clone at 4K. I don't think DSR would work with multimonitors.
Even if the extended desktop setup would add lag, it doesn't explain all of my findings... those findings being:
1. The B326HK I had with a very noticeable 2-3 frame lag was evident when cloned with the Catleap and BenQ
2. The BenQ cloned with the Catleap were equal
3. Extended with the BenQ in 4K at stock firmware, it and the 7500 were equal
4. Extended with the Catleap after two firmware updates, the 7500 is 1.5-2 frames slower in 4K/1440p and equal in 1080p
Okay, maybe not crap... that would probably be true in most cases, but this is a high end TV with a great scaler. Unless some sort of post processing is turning off in 1080p on my TV making it faster at that resolution, I have no idea what is going on. I know for certain I didn't feel lag like this on the stock firmware, nor on 1203.
coolhandm3
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You say you can feel a difference but also say that auto motion on isnt that bad..... I am not sure how to view your opinion on lag when you think 120ms plus isnt bad.
What it comes down to is this, I can feel a difference between pc and game mode at 4k native for games, the lag tester shows there is a difference.
What video card do you have?
Looks like I was wrong. Mine does do it. The LED does turn everything to black with no activity. This is independent of Smart LED. With it on, the cursor is a dull gray. With it off, the cursor is white. That means that the unit does turn off the LED light if the screen is total black, independent of the Smart LED. There is nothing wrong with your unit.
Nitemare3219
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Enabling AMP is definitely bad as far as input lag is concerned. I don't find it unplayable since you get 120 Hz out of it, but it's definitely not good for any kind of shooter. I only enabled it when playing GTA 5 because you aren't shooting all the time. I tried it in Battlefield and such, and while it looks great, it feels like crap. I just liked to play around with it and saw it as viable in certain situations.
The fact that I'm comparing it to an already laggy game mode isn't helping though.
I returned the Acer B326HK which had the same panel as the BenQ BL3201PH because it had horrid lag. I felt it as soon as I turned it on. As soon as I got the BenQ, it was a stroke of relief. It felt the same as the Catleap I'd been using for years, and the Acer XB280HK I was trying out. The 7500 felt great out of the box. I knew I'd be keeping it because the game mode and PC mode were entirely tolerable. It is a different story now. I can feel lag, and although not as bad as the B326HK was, it's definitely there. I wish I could think of a way to give a comparison to the Catleap on video or something... I just don't know how I'd do it. I could clone them at 1440p, but I don't know if you would all accept that as reliable, especially since the Catleap would be lacking V-Sync.
I'm using two TITAN X's. I've tried enabling/disabling SLI, plugging it into both cards, cleaning out drivers, playing with tons of settings... I just can't figure it out.
Nitemare3219
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But it doesn't do it in PC mode. The fact that it does it in game mode makes me believe that is where the additional processing time is coming from. We already knew PC mode had additional lag, but game mode was supposed to be without it. If this backlight turning off on a black screen is adding lag to basically equal PC mode, something is wrong. coolhand said his unit does NOT turn to black in game mode like ours do. Which model do you have again? He has the 48" 7500, I have the 40" 7500.
Are you sure you aren't noticing any lag? Can you feel a difference from game to PC mode? Do you have any old displays to plug in real quick and just feel the mouse movement?
I'm not the best person to ask. My tolerance for lag is pretty high and I really can't tell the difference between PC and Game mode.
In any case, if 1209 broke something, then wait for the next firmware. It will get fixed.
Nitemare3219
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Hopefully... they were cranking out firmwares pretty quick. I'm hoping they do it again this week. I'd like to try to trick the TV into downgrading somehow, but I'm afraid I'll brick the TV.
I edited my post before you replied - which model do you have?
coolhandm3
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Hey, Guys - I tried a couple of things here over the past few hours. I figured out this issue with the input lag. First off, I'm on firmware 1209. I did a factory reset of the TV. I turned the UHD color off. I then retested with the Leo Bodnar and my findings are below.
1. Game Mode - 1080p 20.8 ms
2. Game Mode - 4K UHD Off - about 2 frames more than 1080p
3. Game Mode - 4K UHD on - about 2 frames more than 1080 p
4. PC Mode - 1080p 44.6 ms UHD off
5. PC Mode - 1080p 44.6 ms UHD on
6. PC Mode - 4K UHD on - about 2 frames more than 1080p
7. PC Mode - 4K UHD off - feels more responsive than Game Mode at 4K with UHD off
8. DVI/PC Mode - Input 2 - 32 ms 1080p (UHD off) (UHD on is 38 ms)
9. DVI/PC Mode - Input 2 - feels like 32 ms at 4K (UHD off)
I did extensive testing going back and forth with PC games with 1080p and 4K resolution. There is a definite difference between lag at 1080p and 4K resolutions. I am using a Titan X card with no Vsync turned on.
I can verify that UHD turned off there is less blur in both 1080p and 4K resolutions. I am very sensitive to blur and it was immediately noticeable with UHD off that there was less blur. With UHD on or off the input lag was the same for 1080p, but there was some difference at 4K. Game Mode with UHD off and PC Mode with UHD off at 4K the PC Mode was more responsive than Game Mode, at least a frame quicker on the PC Mode.
I would say overall Samsung was probably designing the Game Mode for consoles running at 1080p or lower. Upon this research, I would say that if it input lag is an issue for you, either game at 1080p on this panel or use a dedicated pc monitor or hold your breath and wait for Samsung to fix it in a firmware update.
My apologies to Nitemare3219. You are correct. There is more input lag with 4K resolution regardless if it is in PC or Game Mode. I did not do these types of tests with the original firmware that was with the TV, so I can't tell if it's gotten worse over time for 4K resolution.
To recap, 4K resolutions in either Game Mode or PC mode, you're looking at 50-ish ms in GameMmode and probably somewhere around 70 ms in PC mode.
1. Game Mode - 1080p 20.8 ms
2. Game Mode - 4K UHD Off - about 2 frames more than 1080p
3. Game Mode - 4K UHD on - about 2 frames more than 1080 p
4. PC Mode - 1080p 44.6 ms UHD off
5. PC Mode - 1080p 44.6 ms UHD on
6. PC Mode - 4K UHD on - about 2 frames more than 1080p
7. PC Mode - 4K UHD off - feels more responsive than Game Mode at 4K with UHD off
8. DVI/PC Mode - Input 2 - 32 ms 1080p (UHD off) (UHD on is 38 ms)
9. DVI/PC Mode - Input 2 - feels like 32 ms at 4K (UHD off)
I did extensive testing going back and forth with PC games with 1080p and 4K resolution. There is a definite difference between lag at 1080p and 4K resolutions. I am using a Titan X card with no Vsync turned on.
I can verify that UHD turned off there is less blur in both 1080p and 4K resolutions. I am very sensitive to blur and it was immediately noticeable with UHD off that there was less blur. With UHD on or off the input lag was the same for 1080p, but there was some difference at 4K. Game Mode with UHD off and PC Mode with UHD off at 4K the PC Mode was more responsive than Game Mode, at least a frame quicker on the PC Mode.
I would say overall Samsung was probably designing the Game Mode for consoles running at 1080p or lower. Upon this research, I would say that if it input lag is an issue for you, either game at 1080p on this panel or use a dedicated pc monitor or hold your breath and wait for Samsung to fix it in a firmware update.
My apologies to Nitemare3219. You are correct. There is more input lag with 4K resolution regardless if it is in PC or Game Mode. I did not do these types of tests with the original firmware that was with the TV, so I can't tell if it's gotten worse over time for 4K resolution.
To recap, 4K resolutions in either Game Mode or PC mode, you're looking at 50-ish ms in GameMmode and probably somewhere around 70 ms in PC mode.
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WorldExclusive
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Enjoyment > Numbers
SixFootDuo
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I don't know what happened but .... the 3rd firmware update ( I think 3rd ) introduced mouse lag to game / pc mode. Now, I understand that somethings were turned back on and that I had to go back in and turn them off again, which I did. The lag is still there. I even reinstalled Windows in hopes of fixing the problem. That did no good. I am not going crazy, I know that much. The display has been sold. I am back on my LG 42" for now.