NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by wahaha360, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. *Daedalus

    *Daedalus [H]Lite

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    I'm not new to watercooling, I know the theory. The thing you have to keep in mind is that there's no rule saying a watercooling setup has to have a delta of less than 5°C. Even with a 20°C delta, temperatures will likely still be better than air cooling.

    Also, I figured that's what you were talking about, but honestly that's still ugly has hell for me. (Just personal taste)
     
  2. crazjayz

    crazjayz 2[H]4U

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    Honestly, for most watercooling, none of that really matters if you're not looking to extract the highest possible performance. The only thing that matter is that the heat dissipation capabilities of the WC system is enough to maintain temperature levels that the user is comfortable with.

    You can run 700rpm fans all day as long as the water temp stabilizes at something your comfortable with and your cpu/gpu temps aren't pushing the Tmax. I could care less if the water temp from ambient increases by 2 or 20 degrees as long as the total heat capacity of the system is higher than the heat output by the components.

    There's a lot of "fluff" when it comes to watercooling. Yes, you can scientifically determine which rad or which fan or which block is the most efficient or removes the most heat, but in terms of what you want, there's no hard facts. For a good example, check out [H]'s review of the Asus ARES 2. Look at the power output, look at the running temps, and then look at the cooling system.
     
  3. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    Can the first post be updated eventually when the common consumer might be able to order one of these? I just found this thread, and I see the buy-in date was March 15th.
     
  4. M4rk

    M4rk Gawd

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    I don't have any control over the first post of this thread, but I can virtually guarantee it'll be updated when the Kickstarter campaign begins.

    You'll probably also see more articles about the case on hardware news sites leading up to its production.
     
  5. With a 20ºC Delta your temperatures will be better on the gpu (because it has a terrible cooling system anyway) but, on your cpu? Nope, you will have terrible temps.

    This is how stuff works. You can't have good temperatures if you have a huge Delta, at least not when talking regarding cpu's.


    @crazjayz: you will never run out of cooling capacity on any given watercooling loop. Water will boil before that point.

    Still, what you don't realise is that if a given block gives you a Temperature differential of +30ºC... you have to factor that, and add it to your Delta T of your loop. 20ºC on top of everything else, on a cpu, IS A LOT.

    Regarding the Ares II... it has nothing to do with it. First, a GPU has a HUGE surface area, and many other components that dump heat... whereas the cpu doesn't. For comparison sake, the I5 3570k has a die are of 160mm^2... but the gpu takes around 1/3. So, we are talking about 100mm^2 that dumps around 77W at max. On the other hand, a 7970 has a die size of around 370mm^2... plus all the other stuff around, that dumps around 250W. Even if we accept that only the 20% of the total power gets dumped by the board, and the rest by the die itself... we are coming 200W on 370mm^2 vs 77W on 100mm^2.

    Difference, as you can imagine, is huge. Which is the reason why it's terribly easy to keep high-end VGA's cooled at 50ºC no matter what overclock you put on them and, on cpu's, that is simply impossible unless you use chillers.

    The fact of the matter is that water temps won't create problems with gpu's (and they also have a higher Tmax) but, with cpu's, we have a whole different problem.
     
  6. crazjayz

    crazjayz 2[H]4U

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    Excuse me? If your loop gets hot enough to boil, you can DEFINITELY bet you will run out of cooling capacity. Simple stated:

    Heat capacity of liquid water: 4.187 kJ/kg-K
    Heat capacity of water vapor: 1.996 kJ/-kgK

    As you can see, once water goes from liquid to steam, it can't absorb nearly as much heat as when in water form. Hypothetically speaking, if you had a system that could survive at these temps (and your loop hit 100*C), what would happen is that your system would start to rise in temperature uncontrollably. The loops ability to contain the heat would decrease and your system temps would just keep going up.

    None of this matters when the only thing you're looking at is the temp of the CPU. If the CPU on a stock heatsink is showing something like 70*C when on air and shows 60*C when on water, it doesn't matter if the delta of the water was 2*C or 20*C. The end result is that the cpu is running cooler.

    If you're trying to get lower temps, then yes, everything you posted makes sense. But if you're looking at it from the opposite side (fixed temp, lower fan speed), you can lower you fan speed until you system reaches your max fixed temp.
     
  7. M4rk

    M4rk Gawd

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    Hey guys, would you mind starting a thread in the watercooling subforum for a discussion that's rolled pretty far off topic? While the added activity in this thread is nice, it would probably be better for new readers to see information about the case at the tail of the discussion instead of WC. ;)
     
  8. If you get steam into your system, you will have a BANG somewhere on the loop, that is certain... and, also, you aren't factoring how the tubes deform under heat. (and you are also forgetting that water doesn't boil at 100ºC, it's not a fixed value as it depends on the pressure).

    But still, I have no idea why you went that way. That wasn't my point, not at all. At 20ºC Delta T you will have a much lower performance than with many mid-end air-coolers, which is precisely my point. Could you sirvive with a low-end heatsink on your current cpu (+ overclock, if you have it)? Yes? Then, probably, a 20ºC Delta T ain't a problem.
     
  9. WiSK

    WiSK 2[H]4U

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    That's a brass rad from 2008. Modern all-copper rads provide significantly more thermal conductivity.

    Martin doesn't review 240 rads anymore, but compare with this Alphacool ST30 review. It has same depth, same fins-per-inch as that old MCR series. Yet at 600 rpm ST30 can manage over double the C/W than for the MCR @ 1000 rpm on the graph you linked.

    http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/05/01/alphacool-nexxxos-st30-360-radiator/4/

    I've mentioned before to you my setup, only the other day in fact, with single AX120 cooling CPU+GPU which is running 24/7 at 100% load. When I turn fans to silent (800rpm is lowest on these), then I'm at 73C CPU and 53C GPU. Not only possible, but at least the GPU is far far cooler than stock air.
     
  10. Hitokiri Batohsai

    Hitokiri Batohsai Limp Gawd

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    I have few questions for the developers of M1. Sorry if the questions have been asked/answered previously.

    1. When testing the M1, under full load for some time, could you try popping a data cd, and see if the optical drive can read the CD/DVD. Try reading the data cd immediately and also try seeing if the data is accessible after the disc is warm itself. I'm just afraid that the PSU is hot and will affect the CD's operation. I had previous experience of OEM build your own laptops, where the exhaust fan is on the same side with the optical drive. My friend kept complaining his laptop can't access cd's after some time. The cd work in other pc's. Then I narrowed the source down to the drive. Left the laptop off until it cool to room temperature, pop the CD in, and it read normally. After 10 mins, the CD could not be read. Pop the CD out and it was warm. My hunch is the heat is causing some sort of malfunction to the drive/CD by expansion.

    2. Will the M1 be sold directly by the developers or will LianLi be contracted in making the cases, or will LianLi buy the rights to the case? Since I am based somewhere near Singapore, shipping the case will cost a lot, especially if it is only distributed from US.

    3. Also, what happens if LianLi/Silverstone or any other company saw this case, and decide to copy it? I'm guessing it is good for the consumers, but will leave the developers short changed.
     
  11. Phuncz

    Phuncz 2[H]4U

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    I'm also curious about this. Lian-Li and other manufacturers will/should keep an eye on this case as, on paper atleast, it is many times more efficient and flexible than other comparable cases. But I'd hate it if three months later Lian-Li or Silverstone just copies your case with their badge on it.
     
  12. Valec06

    Valec06 n00b

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    Hi,

    I am very interested by your work on this build.
    Just have 2 questions about it:
    - is it a possibility to have some Plexiglas on the side to see inside ?
    - why you don't use kickstarter to earn money and will do the project by yourself ?

    Thanks
     
  13. Phuncz

    Phuncz 2[H]4U

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  14. Actually, at 600rpm the performance of the rad you commented and the MCR320QP is terribly similar. Keep in mind that rad's scale linearly ;)

    Still, you see 73ºC on your cpu... which to me would be unnaceptable. Even putting a double rad wouldn't make that big of a difference. It's all a matter of preference though, but I wouldn't be happy with 73ºC on my cpu, as I'd looking for AT MOST mid 60's If I planned to have the computer loaded all day (and keep in mind that we were talking about a GTX670, which is more power hungry than the GTX660).

    But well, let's leave this discussion here... although I guess that the lack of updates fueled the argument.

    ---

    We need more cowbell... so that the prototype can get to NCASE the quicker the better. :D :D :D :D


    Very interesting point. Although keep in mind that the ODD is located on a different part of the case. The PSU sits on the main chamber... whereas the ODD is located between the front pannel and the wall of the chamber. Unless the psu gets very hot and transfers such heat, I don't really see a problem there, but it's interesting nonetheless since I never heard about it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2013
  15. WiSK

    WiSK 2[H]4U

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    Keep in mind that the MCR320QP is the 2011 copper-finned version of the 2008 brass rad you linked graphs for to back up your argument. As I said, C/W is double with less rpms of the rad you showed.

    First you said it's impossible, on a 240 rad. Now you say it's unacceptable, for temps I get on my high restriction single 120 rad. My rad is designed for 1500 rpm. And to already pre-empt my next point, you say it wouldn't make any difference to have a 240 (or moreover a rad designed for 600rpm?). Please stop moving the goalposts.

    You talk a lot of sense mostly Prava, but I can't swallow your arguments about this :)
     
  16. *Daedalus

    *Daedalus [H]Lite

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    ^ Pre-empted most of my responses to his arguments.
     
  17. wahaha360

    wahaha360 Gawd

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    THEORETICALLY protected by patents globally via World Intellectual Property Organization :) How well that works in real life, who knows :rolleyes:

    Not all of the IGG prototype backers will fund the production campaign (some people just wanted to help us out). We still have our fingers crossed that M1 will get 300 orders.

    It's too early to for these questions.
     
  18. Impossible and unacceptable are valid points. Just because something might work at 75ºC doesn't mean I have to feel happy or safe about it and, in fact, I wouldn't. I'm not saying it might or it might not work, but you have to keep in mind that your precise cpu has a Tcase of 67ºC... so, you probably are well over the limit of what would be called acceptable, as the higher the temperature is, the more quickly the cpu degrades.

    And still, lowering the fan rpm, doubling the rad surface AND adding more heat from a more powerful gpu doesn't make such a big dfference. It would be on the red zone, which is something I don't like, specially when I'm forking more than $200 for such cooling system.

    ---

    Still, let's stop beating the dead cow. I think everybody had their go, and it seems kinda pointless to go once and again over the same subject. Let's sign a (momentarily) peace treaty, shall we? :D
     
  19. WiSK

    WiSK 2[H]4U

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    And that's exactly why I run my single rad fans at 1400rpm, to keep CPU under Tcase. (Highest core 62C-68C, lowest core 58C-62C, with a mild overclock to 4200MHz and slight undervolt to help lifespan.)

    I turned the fans down to show it's not impossible, to give Daedalus a reference point for what a modern copper rad can achieve. I have similar hardware to him and I hoped he'd be able to extrapolate those temps to a 240 rad designed for low speed fans. It's up to him to decide if he finds this useful, not you.

    It's not a dead cow to Daedalus though. All he did was to ask if it were possible for Necere to test with low speed fans on an appropriate, high-end radiator. I thought it was a reasonable ask, but instead of letting Necere reply whether such a test is within scope, you made two wall sized posts saying it's "impossible" and "never going to work" and linking graphs to 5 year old technology.

    To those who are bored by the watercooling discussion. Here's the thing: M1 has a unique situation that it will be the only case of its size with mounts and space for a 240 rad. The case might be niche, and watercooling it even more niche, but there is the chance here for some of us to have the only 12 liter production case available where you can fit and run a high end overclocked gaming/folding system without the GPU sounding like a turbine. There's been half a dozen CPU+GPU loops done in SG05 sized cases that I've seen, but they are all limited to 120 rads. It's exactly the possibility of the 240 rad for quieter operation, or heavier overclocking which is attractive.

    If that is outside the scope according to Wahaha and Necere, then so be it :)
     
  20. *Daedalus

    *Daedalus [H]Lite

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    Thanks WiSK, as with your previous posts, you manage to frame my thoughts quite nicely. :p

    I'm well aware that the temps on high-end components using a 240 rad will be on the high side, but I own an Alphacool NexXxoS, which happens to be the best rad available when it comes to sub 1000RPM fans, and it's all copper, so it stands a decent chance of doing well. I'm sure the temperatures won't be acceptable to you, but that's why you can run an external rad if you want. Personally, I feel that running anything external on this case ruins the whole point of it.

    I think just for lolz (and when I actually have some free time again, come back to me in three months) I'll disconnect my 200mm and 120mm rads from my loop, and see how well just the 240 does.
     
  21. Well, we will know if there is any point in discussing this further once NCASE gets their proto and confirms that a 240mm rad fits in there ;D

    It's going to be bloody tight, though. The H220 measures 275mm long and is probably the smallest 240 in that regard. We will see how lucky we get... atlthough I think that the rear fan will have to be sacrificed for the cause.
     
  22. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    275-280mm is the typical length of dual 120mm rads. The H220 is actually 285mm including the barbs, so slightly longer than average. The extra 5-10mm is due to the built-in end tank res.

    You're right about the rear fan though - no room left to mount it internally (externally mounted is an option, of course).
     
  23. medeyer

    medeyer Limp Gawd

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    I have a request, but it's not about specific hardware. Do you think you could make a video during the testing phase with all the different bits and pieces you'll have in there and add a bit of commentary about how well it could work? Might even gain a bit more interest if it's posted on YouTube.
     
  24. Take notes kids: 269 + 16 = 275... or, at least, that's what a dumbass like me thought on the first place. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (this long Easter hasn't been any good to me, too many brain farts :S ).

    Yes, you are totally right, its 285mm. The smaller ones I found are 277mm long, but, still the clearance doesn't seem too good... it will be very very tight, if it fits.

    Putting the fan outside, to me, is a no-no. I'm not paying up to $200 for a case and ruin it's fantastic looks :D
     
  25. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  26. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    I'm not really set up for doing videos, but we'll see.

    Yeah, not the most elegant look, though a fan on the back would be partially covered by the side panel tabs, so it's not as bad as it could be.
     
  27. crABtoad

    crABtoad Limp Gawd

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    So wait... Will this case fit a dual 120mm radiator or not? The first post indicates it's dual 120mm capable, but there's some questions regarding this recently. Would a 275mm rad fit on the side mounts?
     
  28. *Daedalus

    *Daedalus [H]Lite

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    It's pretty much guaranteed to fit. Pavra's perhaps putting a misleading spin on it, just pointing out the fact that a radiator hasn't physically been fitted into a case yet, but going by dimensions, it should fit fine.
     
  29. I'm not misleading anything.

    The case is 328mm long.
    The smallest rad is around 275mm long.

    Yes, that's is 53mm right there, but:

    Things to factor:

    a) The part where the ODD will sit, occupies some space.
    b) We have to account for the panels width.
    c) We have to account that the fan positioning on the case is centered, whereas on most rad's it isn't (aka, from one fan to where the fittings go, there is more space then from the other, to the end of the rad.

    Sure, the rad is shorter than the case, but you are miscalculating many things. For instance, the side panels protrude a bit more in order to work as a handle and pull them off. If that extra length isn't in the 328mm then it isn't anything extra to factor but, if it is, then we have to account it.

    Like I said, 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1= 9.


    @NCASE team: could you please give us the lenght of the string in blue (in your cad schemes, of course, since you don't have the case yet :D ).

    [​IMG]
     
  30. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    It's not. Case length including the panel tabs and PCI bracket tab is 338mm.

    There's 304mm internally front-to-back. You'll note the screw holes on the fan bracket are slotted, allowing for some adjustability - 8mm worth. These are the exact measurements:

    Code:
    Front + fans + rear
    
    26.5 + 240 + 37.5mm
    
    to
    
    34.5 + 240 + 29.5mm
    There's also the front and rear chassis flanges to take into account, which comes into play when installing the radiator. There we have 290mm total. From the above measurements, the flanges subtract 9mm from the front and 5mm from the rear.
     
  31. M4rk

    M4rk Gawd

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    I am all set up for videos... ;)
     
  32. Thanks for the detailed specs. So, if you take into account the flanges, we are talking at this max-min clearances, right?

    Mmm, the H220 is 285mm long... withouth housing nor clamps. It's fair to assume that would make it into the 290mm territory. The problem with Swiftech's drawings is that they aren't as detailed as with some other models:

    [​IMG]

    If we speculate on the drawing, the H220 might only fit in one position (fittings on rear of the case), which would make it a huge cumbersome. At 16mm + housing/clamps + fan to fitting start it will probably be over 25.5mm, and I have no idea how you would route the tube, then.

    For other rad models we'd require more detailed drawings, as producers doesn't seem to bother publishing their detailed measurements (or I haven't found them).

    But still, it will be terribly tight no matter what rad you put in there.

    ----

    Mmmm, it seems that the Alphacool Nexos UT45 and UT60 might have also problems, as the side where the fittings go seems to be above 25mm (the total length on the rad is around 282mm. No idea why they state 280mm because they aren't accounting for the plugs).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2013
  33. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    Well, that's just for getting the rad in and out, right? There's a bit more room inside. So if necessary, you can insert the bracket/rad offset to the rear slightly and then shift it forward once it's in. I suppose, worst case, you could even put the rad inside the case first, and then screw it to the bracket. But it's all theory until we can test the real hardware.

    Also, the UT60 and XT45 are 60mm and 45mm thick, respectively, which is thicker than I'd recommend trying to fit in the case. Best to stick with rads 35mm and under.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  34. Robertmarcus

    Robertmarcus Gawd

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    Dont forget that the h220 has tons of tubing on it, like 10+ inches i think. If you want to go the cutting route, be my guest. Most people i think will stick to h70s and such. The h80 might fit with one fan. It is pretty thick with two.
     
  35. WiSK

    WiSK 2[H]4U

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    I don't think I've seen any comparative tests of the H80 with only one fan. Surely it's too restrictive to perform well unless you've got that single fan at max?
     
  36. cowsgomoo

    cowsgomoo Gawd

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    Any chance of a H80i fitting with both fans? The thickness of the H80i should be 88mm and it's 140mm to the motherboard, so that's 52mm extra.
     
  37. Necere

    Necere 2[H]4U

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    I think you mean "52mm left for the waterblock, tubing, and anything tall on the motherboard." I just tried a little test using a 'simulated' H80 (an H60 with 2 fans + 1 slim fan, 85mm thick total), and while I wouldn't say it's impossible, it's definitely not pretty. The tubing is coiled and smushed between the rad and the motherboard - RAM especially. I'm not using tall RAM, either, so it'd be even more of a problem if you were. And it's not leaving a lot of room for airflow. So yeah, you could do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
     
  38. Acapella75

    Acapella75 n00b

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    So if the h80i is too tight, what's a good air cooler to use in this case with 3570k. Only want a mild overclock (4-4.2 ghz) and a gtx 690? Decent air flow impossible with that combo?
     
  39. Hitokiri Batohsai

    Hitokiri Batohsai Limp Gawd

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    Well, unlike normal ATX cases, the ODD sits quite "isolated" to the PSU, so there is little heat problem. I've had few dead motherboards/on-board modems and even ODD die on shuttle pc's.

    I want to buy the case, but if will cost USD200 without shipping, and my location in Malaysia. I don't think this is a viable solution. I can buy two Bitfenix prodigy with that money with cash to spare. I'm planning to do something like this, but the handles/feet make the case big, when placed next to the TV. In fact, I've narrowed down to 5 cases for the steambox: prodigy, Silverstone SG 09, TJ08-E, LianLi PCQ-18 and Ncase M1.

    Hopefully you will get 300 orders.
     
  40. cowsgomoo

    cowsgomoo Gawd

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    I can buy five Fractal Core 1000 with that money and maybe 200 cardboard boxes.