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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
- Thread starter wahaha360
- Start date
I'm excited to see how people build these things out and the various mods required to jam everything in.
I see a butt-load of worklogs for the M1 this summer/fall. Personally I think i'm finally going to try H2O for the first time. I had no intentions of moving to Haswell as my ivy is more than fast enough but this case changed that. If I'm going to waste money, might as well go all out. At last my steambox will get some nice hand me downs.
I see a butt-load of worklogs for the M1 this summer/fall. Personally I think i'm finally going to try H2O for the first time. I had no intentions of moving to Haswell as my ivy is more than fast enough but this case changed that. If I'm going to waste money, might as well go all out. At last my steambox will get some nice hand me downs.
yimingwuzere
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Well, the prototype certainly has enough cable length for the front IO ports, not like the Bitfenix Prodigy. The Prodigy's USB cable can barely stretch to the USB headers on the P8Z77-I Deluxe.
Machupo
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Wonder if a SZ77R5 mobo will fit in here 
Nope. Conflicts with the PSU. Shuttle boards are long and narrow - something like 280mm deep. Using an SFX PSU you're limited to mini-ITX - 170mm deep; with ATX, ~200mm.Wonder if a SZ77R5 mobo will fit in here
Robertmarcus
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so is the whole case alu? Parts of the usb thing looked plastic in the front. Will you offer a plain unpainted one for those of us modders who dont want to sand it down just to repaint it?
The whole case is aluminum, including the part the front I/O sit in.
Plain unpainted... what? Case? The exterior panels of the case are anodized, so there shouldn't be a need to sand it down prior to painting (AFAIK, not an expert on painting). The interior parts are painted, though. Our plan right now is just to do this one case, shipped only one way, to keep things simple and avoid as many potential complications as possible.
Machupo
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What about a SFX in an ATX adapter plate (so it's rotated sideways) -- especially an adapter plate that moved it as close to the radiator exclusion area as possible?
Doesn't help. The difference in width between SFX and ATX is only 25mm, which isn't enough to clear the RAM on a Shuttle board.
We're not planning on including an adapter plate. Someone mentioned that the SilverStone SFXs come with one, though.
I was reading the thread about problems getting a EVGA GTX680 classified into a Shuttle and it reminded me of something I wanted to bring up: cards that are much taller than reference are likely to have problems fitting in the M1. The problem is when the PCB is taller than normal there isn't enough room left for the PCIe power connectors between the card and the side panel. For example, the MSI Lightning 7970:
The part of the card at the Crossfire connectors is the normal height that conforms to the PCIe physical spec, while the rest of the card, including the power connectors, is a good 15-20mm taller. That makes it too tall for the power connectors to fit inside the case.
Another example, the EVGA GTX680 Classified:
The ASUS ARES II:
With this card, it's not just the power connectors that are the problem, but also the tubes for the attached CLC.
None of these cards conform to the PCI-express card electromechanical specification, due to their extra height. The M1 is designed to support only those cards that conform to the specification. Proper planning is crucial to a successful build in this (and any) small case.
The part of the card at the Crossfire connectors is the normal height that conforms to the PCIe physical spec, while the rest of the card, including the power connectors, is a good 15-20mm taller. That makes it too tall for the power connectors to fit inside the case.
Another example, the EVGA GTX680 Classified:
The ASUS ARES II:
With this card, it's not just the power connectors that are the problem, but also the tubes for the attached CLC.
None of these cards conform to the PCI-express card electromechanical specification, due to their extra height. The M1 is designed to support only those cards that conform to the specification. Proper planning is crucial to a successful build in this (and any) small case.
This is why you guys are going to have a fun time testing fitment of a bunch of different parts, right? Reference vs aftermarket PCB designs, out-of-spec PSUs, too-tall DIMMs, HSFs, etc.
Probably safer to make a community-editable spreadsheet of what WILL fit instead of what won't.
Probably safer to make a community-editable spreadsheet of what WILL fit instead of what won't.
Phuncz
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I think with this case more hardware will fit than hardware that won't fit. Necere clearly said graphic cards don't fit that don't conform the "PCI-express card electromechanical specification", which are luckily exceptions, not the general rule.
He also said, and I'm putting this in bright pink letters because this can't be stressed enough:
Proper planning is crucial to a successful build in this (and any) small case.
I have a Lian-Li PC-V352 and being a rather large mATX case, it has VERY specific demands for some of the hardware, although touting large numbers aplenty.
- Graphics card: power connectors need to be at the side of the card, not the top or at a specific location on the top. If you look at this picture, you see where the red SATA cables are wedged between the PSU and optical drive cage, if your power connectors are EXACTLY there, it might work. But I guarantee you, you'll hate it when they have to come out. Also the cooler can't be ANY bigger than the PCI-express card specs or it won't fit.
- PSU: I had to find a shorter-than-normal one or it wouldn't be possible to fit. And it still is a tight fit, I need to disassemble almost everything just to reach a hard disk.
- CPU heatsink: frustratingly it's blocked by, and this happens a lot in this case, a piece of the case itself, that's there MAYBE for structural rigidity. Otherwise I could have actually mounted a fan on it.
He also said, and I'm putting this in bright pink letters because this can't be stressed enough:
Proper planning is crucial to a successful build in this (and any) small case.
I have a Lian-Li PC-V352 and being a rather large mATX case, it has VERY specific demands for some of the hardware, although touting large numbers aplenty.
- Graphics card: power connectors need to be at the side of the card, not the top or at a specific location on the top. If you look at this picture, you see where the red SATA cables are wedged between the PSU and optical drive cage, if your power connectors are EXACTLY there, it might work. But I guarantee you, you'll hate it when they have to come out. Also the cooler can't be ANY bigger than the PCI-express card specs or it won't fit.
- PSU: I had to find a shorter-than-normal one or it wouldn't be possible to fit. And it still is a tight fit, I need to disassemble almost everything just to reach a hard disk.
- CPU heatsink: frustratingly it's blocked by, and this happens a lot in this case, a piece of the case itself, that's there MAYBE for structural rigidity. Otherwise I could have actually mounted a fan on it.
Many system builders lack this common sense planning mentality, at least that's my impression judging by the threads I read (here and on other forums). I believe it would be pretty smart to put a big statement on the Kickstarter page saying parts that exceed standard size limitations may not fit inside the case. This way Necere and W360 don't have to apologize to anyone who purchased components that don't fit.
Just this.
Have to agree with you Mark. I've also seen so many people posting on forums who buy a SFF case at the same time as all their components then are surprised about a crucial thing that doesn't fit: too long GPU, or CPU heatsink hitting the memory, or modular PSU is effectively 20mm longer than non-modular.
But there are also people who post and ask if a particular card/cooler/whatever will fit in this-or-that case. So often someone replies who thinks they know the answer, but it's wrong or just guessing (edit: see next post after mine for great example). So the original poster is misled and it can cost a lot if you can't return an item.
So: buy case first, measure it yourself. Then check each component. If you can't find dimension details online, email the manufacturer for a design drawing or simple question "how wide/tall/deep is this product?". Don't rush.
/rant
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Silverghost
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http://i.imgur.com/TCoHXxv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XIvwBxD.jpg
Looks like there is enough room for extra large cards. Though the 680 classified might be a a problem with power cables.
http://i.imgur.com/XIvwBxD.jpg
Looks like there is enough room for extra large cards. Though the 680 classified might be a a problem with power cables.
they're not talking about long, they're talking about wide or tall. some cards (see above) extend past the top of the pci bracket and if they do, and have their power plugs on that edge too, then they won't fit in this case.
Silverghost
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I'm aware. I edited to clarify. (This post too I should slow down.)
I should slow down.)
Machupo
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I am so excited for this mini-build with the M1 case!
Not sure this matter since this will support a full-length GPU, but I'm excited for this:
http://www.slashgear.com/odd-looking-asus-geforce-gtx-670-directcu-mini-video-card-debuts-03276270/
Announcement here:
http://rog.asus.com/214602013/graphics-cards-2/asus-gtx-670-directcu-mini-small-size-full-power/
I just wish ASUS didn't have that silly daughter board on all their mITX motherboards. Prevents me from using the same motherboard with headpipes in my Streamcom EVO 5 case. I plan on building a fanless always on server as well.
Not sure this matter since this will support a full-length GPU, but I'm excited for this:
http://www.slashgear.com/odd-looking-asus-geforce-gtx-670-directcu-mini-video-card-debuts-03276270/
Announcement here:
http://rog.asus.com/214602013/graphics-cards-2/asus-gtx-670-directcu-mini-small-size-full-power/
I just wish ASUS didn't have that silly daughter board on all their mITX motherboards. Prevents me from using the same motherboard with headpipes in my Streamcom EVO 5 case. I plan on building a fanless always on server as well.
It's the extra power regulation for overclocking and only on the Z77. If you don't need to overclock, then use the P8H77-I instead.
It's useful if you wanted to get a >140mm long or modular ATX power supply in the case for whatever reason (noise, already have it).
They're expecting the feet on Monday and then it will be ready to ship.
Something I'd like to mention just so it's there:
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume a CPU+GPU+240 rad is on the agenda for testing. I'd really appreciate it if you could get some decent fans (Gentle Typhoons, preferably) and when temperature testing, start at very low RPM (I don't know exactly what mine are running at, but they're 1150RPM fans, running at 7V). I try to make all my builds as silent as possible, so I need to know if temperatures will be even within reason at those sorts of speeds.
Of course this means you'll need a decent low-speed rad. Something like an Alphacool NexXxoS or XSPC EX240 would be ideal.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume a CPU+GPU+240 rad is on the agenda for testing. I'd really appreciate it if you could get some decent fans (Gentle Typhoons, preferably) and when temperature testing, start at very low RPM (I don't know exactly what mine are running at, but they're 1150RPM fans, running at 7V). I try to make all my builds as silent as possible, so I need to know if temperatures will be even within reason at those sorts of speeds.
Of course this means you'll need a decent low-speed rad. Something like an Alphacool NexXxoS or XSPC EX240 would be ideal.
I like the power button/hdd light. It is similar to the ones on a Q02, Q07 and Q08 that I have built with.
No doubt people have their preferences. I did notice that the surface is rougher than the usually used buttons. Normally, the whole button glows, with the center being brighter than the rest.
It looks like with an opaque surround to the center, the glow will be limited to just the center. That should help those who want a less bright light.
No doubt people have their preferences. I did notice that the surface is rougher than the usually used buttons. Normally, the whole button glows, with the center being brighter than the rest.
It looks like with an opaque surround to the center, the glow will be limited to just the center. That should help those who want a less bright light.
Phuncz
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http://i.imgur.com/37RzoEO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/P2bNmsm.jpg
(Asus GTX670 Mini)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! Why is it wider/higher
I hope we can confirm that it fits, otherwise I'll have to manufacture an L-shaped connector.
http://i.imgur.com/P2bNmsm.jpg
(Asus GTX670 Mini)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! Why is it wider/higher
I hope we can confirm that it fits, otherwise I'll have to manufacture an L-shaped connector.
Phuncz
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That's a possibility but I'm not really looking at spending 200$ just to watercool a GPU (100$ for GPU block alone). I'd rather keep everything aircooled.
We're going to try to get a Swiftech H220 for testing dual rad support (if it ever stays in stock long enough for us to grab one). It's 13 FPI, which is about as low as you'll find on a slim rad. The fans it comes with are also PWM, so running at a range of speeds shouldn't be a problem.
I won't be doing serious sound testing a la SPCR; it's out of scope for our testing, and I doubt the noise floor where I'm at is low enough in any case.
Huh. I was under the impression that apart from the change to a single 8-pin and minor changes to the power circuitry it was essentially the same as the reference PCB. Guess not.http://i.imgur.com/37RzoEO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/P2bNmsm.jpg
(Asus GTX670 Mini)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! Why is it wider/higher
I hope we can confirm that it fits, otherwise I'll have to manufacture an L-shaped connector.
Judging by the pics, the height increase isn't nearly enough to cause an issue with the PCIe power connector. With standard height cards there's 29mm between the card edge and side panel; this look to reduce that by maybe 4-5mm, which leaves more than enough for the connector.
Excellent, sounds perfect. And yeah, I wasn't expecting SPCR type stuff. It would be easy enough to guess sound levels with something like this anyway, given that the only other thing really making noise would be the PSU fan (here's hoping Silverstone's 450W one will have quieter competition come shipping time).
Oh, and I wouldn't mind seeing if a D5 can be fit in there (and actually connected in a loop. Tube routing, etc.)
With the stock D5 housing, there's no chance of getting it inside with a dual rad. It's just too big. With an aftermarket top on the D5 it's possible to mount the pump at the bottom front, so long as you're using a short card (e.g., GTX670 w/waterblock).
There's ~140mm from the surface of the motherboard to the fan bracket, so figure ~132mm after subtracting the CPU socket height.
D
Deleted member 222586
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Yet, I totally agree with you. This is an enthusiasts case... and I'm sure people that got into this knows how tricky the small systems are... AKA... better get your case first, a caliper, and adapt your build to the case. If you don't do it like that, you will fail.
This seems totally pointless to me. You don't need any review based on this case to know how well (or bad) a 240 rad will cool X components. What you should know is that if you plan to run a silent build (1150rpm fans at 7V seems like 600rpm to me), watercooling the gpu and cpu at 600rpm is simply IMPOSSIBLE if you plan to put any stress on your system... unless you are talking about low-end components. It will never work (and I'm not even talking about overclock).
Regarding to watercool the components... your best (and probably only one) bet would be to include a cpu block with integrated pump and, still, the housing would have to be placed somewhere, and it would cause a massive hindrance to fill, bleed and everything. I'm starting to think that the best thing will be to have the radiator external with some quick-disconnects and be done with it. You will get a much better performance, too.
@Necere & Wahaha360: IMO, don't overcomplicate stuff. The things you should try are:
a) Check whether AIO solutions fit (like the H220).
b) Check whether the side fans need to be run pull or push when using a blower-style high-end VGA (while checking the temperatures for all the system). (this would be for suggestions purposes, and to know a worst case).
c) Check whether the side fans need to be run pull or push when using alternative-style high-end VGA (the ones that don't blow the heat out).
d) Check for overall clearance regarding cpu heastink compatibility, and check whether fans on pull/push benefits the most.
e) Check for the mess created by using a conventional ATX psu, and whether short cables make it more bearable or not (short cables like the ones sold by silverstone).
IMO, there is no point in trying every single combination there is. A case ain't noisy unless something rattles in the case, which should be fairly easy to spot in any conventional build. Another factor to look for would be whether the ventilation is fine or not by looking for hot spots (components that get hotter than they should in comparison with others doing better).
---
I know it's kinda obvious, but I have seen some WTF messages before that were over-demanding. Unconventional VGA with unconventional sizes shouldn't be a concern: it's up to the final user to find out. The same for anything out of the norm... or NCASE guys will get mad trying to look for things that not even the most high-end brands bother to check.
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tuanster1119
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Thank you Prava for summing up how I've wanted to respond to these specialized requests in a much nicer and constructive manner than I would've.
I have both (aftermarket top and 670) as it happens, so it should work out nicely.
If you'd like to find me a review of a 3570K or similar with a GTX 670 running on a slim 240 rad with decent fans at around 600RPM, then please do. It's not like I don't know this, and it's not like I haven't looked, I wouldn't have asked if I knew the answer already.
I'm sure it would be a pain to assemble, fill, and bleed, but that's the price of an SFF case like this, and mounting a radiator externally is something that I would consider pointless, so to each their own.
1911Shootist
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I ran an i5-750 and 5770 on 2 120mm radiators with 2 1200 rpm fans @~700rpm just fine. Never got over ~50*C (~25*C amb) during every stress test I could throw at it. Granted those aren't really high power components, but even with a mild OC it was very usable and very cool running. If I wanted to go back to the PITA of custom water, I'd absolutely go for a 240 and 2 slow fans again - if it doesn't cool enough, worst case scenario: turn up the fans.
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D
Deleted member 222586
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When I'm talking about external radiators I'm not talking about this (shit):
I'm talking about something like this:
Or have the rad hidden somwhere, it's kinda easy with quick-disconnects, and convenient for servicing and everything.
---
Regarding your concerns, it will all depend on what do you plan to do with your computer and if you plan to apply any overclock, but temperatures on the cpu wouldn't be too nice even without any overclock (on the gpu will be more than fine)
Keep in mind that:
a) Gaming, you will be dumping around 250W on your rad.
b) With silent fans, the Delta T won't be pretty.
The thing is, though, that you can't have it all. If you want a silent system, you need a very large surface area. If you don't care about silence, you can do with a lot less.
For instance, this is how a rad behaves with different fan rpm on a given load:
http://martinsliquidlab.i4memory.com/SwiftechMCR220-Review.html
Look at the first graph. The first line shows the quantity of heat dissipated with a fan @ 1000 rpm. Now, you need to understand that the increase in performance ain't linear... which means that the first few RPM will make a higher impact than the last ones.
For around 250W, with 700rpm fans, and accepting that they are similar in performance that those Yate Loon... we are talking about a 20ºC Delta T, which is A LOT. A high-end watercooling loop has a Delta T of less than 5ºC, a normal one, between 5 and 10ºC... and 20ºC is well beyond what I'd want to go with any cpu in the loop. If you have temperatures of 25ºC as ambient, the water will be in the mid 40's... so, as efficient as the your cpu will be, it won't go below the 50ºC, and from there... to heaven.
All of this, IMO, is kinda pointless: unless you go with a full ATX psu (which might not even fit), any mITX psu you fit will be far more noisy than your system, by a LOT.
Now, you could go with full silent @ idle, and have the fans spine a bit more @ load.
@1911Shootist: keep in mind that with the system you described you would have a load of less than 200W. Also, you don't have the problem with IB shitty TIM, which even more will provide crappy temperatures for the system.