More DLSS...

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
You guys call that Amazing? It just a sharpen filter.
Well the effect is subtle but it does help, especially when using a lower render scale.

I can take some more photos tomorrow, when you have a lower render scale it can make a bigger difference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
Well the effect is subtle but it does help, especially when using a lower render scale.

I can take some more photos tomorrow, when you have a lower render scale it can make a bigger difference.
I am just wondering why anyone has a big reaction to a sharpen filter anymore.

I have been using sharpen (USM to be precise) on my photos since the late 1990's.

Then for many recent years in PC gaming, people have been using things like SweetFx/Reshade to add a Sharpen filter (and many others) to games to give it more punch, for almost a decade.

So yeah, adding a sharpen filter, makes things look sharper. But it's hardly something that should be called amazing at this point.

And it is NOT a reconstruction technique that can actually add fill in missing details on a image reconstruction like DLSS 2.0 or Checkerboard rendering. Both of those are actually pretty amazing when at their best.
 

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
Here are some better shots. I recorded with ultra settings 1080p.

Fidelity FX Off 100% Render Scale (top) versus Fidelity FX On 80% Render Scale (bottom)

RAGE2_1_OFF.png
RAGE2_1_ON.png

RAGE2_2_OFF.png
RAGE2_2_ON.png

RAGE2_3_OFF.png
RAGE2_3_ON.png

As you can see, there is very little loss in quality but around 20 - 25% better performance.

I chose 80% as below that you start to lose detail, but down to 70% was acceptable.

So it is doing more than just a sharpen filter would.
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
So it is doing more than just a sharpen filter would.
No, it's not. 80% render scale, makes things a bit more blurry. A sharpen filter, obviously reduces blur.

Net effect is that it can be close 100% render scale without a sharpen filter. Of course you could apply a sharpen filter to the 100% scale, and it would look better than 80% with sharpen filter.

Rage is also one of the worse games to examine this in because it looks soft/blurry even at 100%, so the adding a bit more blur doesn't have a large effect. So you can get away with this kind of thing more easily. A game with a sharper look at 100% would see more obvious degradation using a lower render scale. But if you start with blur, and bit more blur is hardly noticeable.
 
Last edited:

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
You are correct that Rage 2 is a soft game to begin with.

I wanted to test with Gears but their render scale option was broken.

Maybe there is another game that is a better test, I still feel like there are performance gains here basically for free.
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

Auer

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,840
No, it's not. 80% render scale, makes things a bit more blurry. A sharpen filter, obviously reduces blur.

Net effect is that it can be close 100% render scale without a sharpen filter. Of course you could apply a sharpen filter to the 100% scale, and it would look better than 80% with sharpen filter.

Rage is also one of the worse games to examine this in because it looks soft/blurry even at 100%, so the adding a bit more blur doesn't have a large effect. So you can get away with this kind of thing more easily. A game with a sharper look at 100% would see more obvious degradation using a lower render scale. But if you start with blur, and bit more blur is hardly noticeable.
I do something similar in Fallout 76.
So as not have my poor 2070 fans screaming at me when playing the game at 4K/60fps I drop down to 2880x1620 and apply a small amount of sharpening from the NCP.
End result is a quiet card and very pleasant IQ
 

RamboZombie

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Messages
114
Now we need an image comparison between DLSS and RadeonFX...because claiming stuff is easy, when there are no comparsion.
Until then I would not consider them "equal"...and neither should you.

Happy birthsday Factum! DLSS CAKE is on the way - It's actually crappy, but it looks waay better than it is :) have a nice birthsday buddy :)
 
Last edited:

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
Again, I need data (pictures, videoes) because I don't trust the "eyes of reviewers"...I still shudder about the hexagonal "circle" reflections in "Noir", something most reviewers and people missed completely.
Very convenient that this is lacking...
Digital Foundry tears into Death Stranding image quality, with lots of nitpicky examples we know and love them for.

Conclusion. DLSS 2.0 is excellent in this game as well. DLSS 2.0 Quality is BETTER than Native + TAA.

CAS is just low res scaled up and not anywhere near as good.


Edit:

updated the video to 15:54, where the DLSS stuff starts.

He is also working on the Checkerboard vs DLSS video. Decima engine is supposed to have one of the best checkerboard solutions, so I can't wait for that comparison.

I wonder why checkerboard wasn't brought to PC...

I remember when RTX cards were announced I was much more excited about DLSS than Ray Tracing, then I was completely let down by DLSS 1.0. But now, more and more DLSS 2.0 is showing the promise of that technology again.
 
Last edited:

Factum

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Messages
2,318
Digital Foundry tears into Death Stranding image quality, with lots of nitpicky examples we know and love them for.

Conclusion. DLSS 2.0 is excellent in this game as well. CAS is just low res scaled up and not as good.

That was my point exactly...of lot of "reviewers" are clueless, so I trust data (like that review)...thanks for sharing 👍
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
5,193
Looking good for DLSS.
What I liked was DLSS Quality gave better performance and noticeable IQ upgrade over Native 4K w/ TAA. We knew this before but it was well presented and shown in this video. How reviewers tackle cards with DLSS ability and with cards that don"t support DLSS 2 will be interesting in games that can use it. I would compare it with and without DLSS to the cards not having it, if IQ is equivalent or better with DLSS, use those higher numbers as the final result against the non-supporting card. Good innovations should be accredited and recognized is the jest. I hope AMD will have something as effective or competitive to DLSS but won't believe it until I see it.
 

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
Yeah, the fact that it's getting those gains on the 2060 is insane. It's definitely more innovative than ray tracing.

I mean, ray tracing has been known for decades, but this DLSS came out of left-field. It was a rough start, but Nvidia came through.

Honestly, AMD is going to be hurting (as much as I love them). The FidelityFX is alright, I would suggest people try it, it does work but it's not as great as DLSS.

With FidelityFX you can probably drop to 75% render scale, so get a 25% boost of performance, with some slight loss in quality.

It's nowhere near as good as what Nvidia has, but unless something drastic changes soon that is probably what we are working with.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
19,564
AMD had better match this technology or Nvidia's performance/feature gap will expand to a point were AMD will only be the option of fanboys.

DLSS (2.0) is a game-changer.
Agreed. The more games we see it in the more it matters. I'd be stoked to play most games 4K120 on an LG 48" OLED.
 

Ricky T

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
307
They really need to go back to all the titles that had the first version of dlss and update them.
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
AMD had better match this technology or Nvidia's performance/feature gap will expand to a point were AMD will only be the option of fanboys.

DLSS (2.0) is a game-changer.
Agreed. This is a game changer.

I hope AMD is working on something close. IMO it doesn't have to be Deep Learning. DLSS 1.5 wasn't using Deep Learning, it relied on a conventional Shader Program. AMD could (and should at minimum) do something like that.

IMO what NVidia switched to doing is Deep Learning assisted Checkerboard Rendering with DLSS 2.0. DLSS 1.5 was probably just conventional checkerboard rendering (Again AMD could do this).

Digitial Foundry are working on a video Comparing Decima Checkerboard Rendering (Likely on PS4 Pro). This is supposed to be one of the better Checkerboard Rendering systems out there, so we should get a good idea how close conventional checkerboard can get to the DLSS 2.0 version.
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

imsirovic5

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Messages
148
Yeah, the fact that it's getting those gains on the 2060 is insane. It's definitely more innovative than ray tracing.

I mean, ray tracing has been known for decades, but this DLSS came out of left-field. It was a rough start, but Nvidia came through.

Honestly, AMD is going to be hurting (as much as I love them). The FidelityFX is alright, I would suggest people try it, it does work but it's not as great as DLSS.

With FidelityFX you can probably drop to 75% render scale, so get a 25% boost of performance, with some slight loss in quality.

It's nowhere near as good as what Nvidia has, but unless something drastic changes soon that is probably what we are working with.
I agree, DLSS 2.0 is by far one of the most exciting technologies (to me) in this space. I cant really imagine us ever having enough power for meaningful ray-tracing implementation without something like DLSS. This AI assisted approach to rendering is beyond fascinating to me, as it is helping us overcome stagnating hardware advancements.

Similar to this, I am also super excited about innovations like "DeepFovea" - foveate rendering using AI technology - especially relevant in the VR space. DeepFovea can decrease the amount of compute resources needed for rendering by as much as 10-14x while any image differences remain imperceptible to the human eye: https://ai.facebook.com/blog/deepfovea-using-deep-learning-for-foveated-reconstruction-in-ar-vr/

For those more technically minded, there is a full paper here:

https://research.fb.com/wp-content/...sing-Learned-Statistics-of-Natural-Videos.pdf
 

Auer

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,840
I agree, DLSS 2.0 is by far one of the most exciting technologies (to me) in this space. I cant really imagine us ever having enough power for meaningful ray-tracing implementation without something like DLSS. This AI assisted approach to rendering is beyond fascinating to me, as it is helping us overcome stagnating hardware advancements.

Similar to this, I am also super excited about innovations like "DeepFovea" - foveate rendering using AI technology - especially relevant in the VR space. DeepFovea can decrease the amount of compute resources needed for rendering by as much as 10-14x while any image differences remain imperceptible to the human eye: https://ai.facebook.com/blog/deepfovea-using-deep-learning-for-foveated-reconstruction-in-ar-vr/

For those more technically minded, there is a full paper here:

https://research.fb.com/wp-content/...sing-Learned-Statistics-of-Natural-Videos.pdf
Interesting. I don't have Facebook tho. And never will :)
 

5150Joker

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
4,022
Here are some better shots. I recorded with ultra settings 1080p.

Fidelity FX Off 100% Render Scale (top) versus Fidelity FX On 80% Render Scale (bottom)

View attachment 260881
View attachment 260882

View attachment 260883
View attachment 260884

View attachment 260885
View attachment 260886

As you can see, there is very little loss in quality but around 20 - 25% better performance.

I chose 80% as below that you start to lose detail, but down to 70% was acceptable.

So it is doing more than just a sharpen filter would.
That looks like plain old CAS sharpen filter to me. If that’s what AMD plans to use to answer DLSS then I predict they will use a lot of misleading advertising and social media posts to confuse people.
 

funkydmunky

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
2,508
The solution needs to be user selectable like AA and available to the user in every game. Right now it is a triple A title tool and useless if it is not supported by the games you play. Zero value to me in VR where this technology is needed.
 

chameleoneel

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
3,293
Yeah, the fact that it's getting those gains on the 2060 is insane. It's definitely more innovative than ray tracing.

I mean, ray tracing has been known for decades, but this DLSS came out of left-field. It was a rough start, but Nvidia came through.

Honestly, AMD is going to be hurting (as much as I love them). The FidelityFX is alright, I would suggest people try it, it does work but it's not as great as DLSS.

With FidelityFX you can probably drop to 75% render scale, so get a 25% boost of performance, with some slight loss in quality.

It's nowhere near as good as what Nvidia has, but unless something drastic changes soon that is probably what we are working with.
enabling Fidelity FX in this game automatically reduces renderscale by 75%
 

funkydmunky

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
2,508
enabling Fidelity FX in this game automatically reduces renderscale by 75%
Sounds like it might be useful to me in VR once AMD releases a high-end card.
Does Nvidia have something similar now or planned to your knowledge? Or is it DLSS or bust?
 

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
Fidelity FX works with both Nvidia or AMD cards, but needs to be added by the developer of the game.
 

Flogger23m

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
10,777
AMD had better match this technology or Nvidia's performance/feature gap will expand to a point were AMD will only be the option of fanboys.

DLSS (2.0) is a game-changer.
Absolutely. Price/performance ratio is getting absurd, but DLSS actually makes things relatively affordable again. If it gets widespread adoption and very consistently, you're getting a lot more performance for your dollar.
 

Ready4Dis

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
1,742
It is a CAS filter, but it's better than the driver based Radeon Image Sharpening.

Not by much, but it does reduce the emboss looking artifacts. But you're right, it's not close to DLSS.
Not close? That's subjective I guess as different reviewers found different conclusions:
" One interesting difference is THG and Ars award different winners in terms of overall image quality. When describing AMD’s FidelityFX, THG writes: “[T]he sharpening and upscaling causes some visible shimmer. It’s not terrible, and it’s a way to boost framerates that some people will undoubtedly appreciate, but the effect was certainly noticeable when moving around.” Here’s Ars: “FidelityFX CAS preserves a slight bit more detail in the game’s particle and rain systems, which ranges from a shoulder-shrug of, ‘yeah, AMD is a little better’ most of the time to a head-nod of, ‘okay, AMD wins this round’ in rare moments.” Ars takes note of several places where DLSS still struggles with rendering, where AMD FidelityFX renders things perfectly. "
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...k60-with-dlss-2-0-fidelityfx-on-midrange-gpus
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...of-death-stranding-is-the-definitive-version/


As you can see, Ars Technica came to the conclusion that Fidelity FX looked better, while Tomshardware Guide concluded DLSS looked better. I don't trust Toms to much (but other sites came to the same conclusion as well), but I would say given the mixed reviews that I would still consider it close with the edge going to DLSS (I said edge, not blowout).

DSO Gaming came to the conclusion DLSS is slightly better (not significantly) again point to yes, they are close.
"All in all, DLSS 2.0 is slightly better than both Native 4K and FidelityFX Upscaling." & "there is more aliasing with FidelityFX Upscaling than in both Native 4K and DLSS 2.0. On the other hand, DLSS 2.0 can eliminate more jaggies, but also introduces some visual artifacts."
https://www.dsogaming.com/screensho...ative-4k-vs-fidelityfx-upscaling-vs-dlss-2-0/

Going by the screenshots released by nvidia, it does make DLSS look good, but they aren't going to give you screen shots that put it in a bad light. Also, if you're playing a game and zooming in on an eyebrow just to prove your IQ is better in game... you're doing it wrong. That said, I think image reconstruction techniques are going to be critical going forward, especially as 5k and then 8k monitors start coming on scene. AMD will for sure have to come up with something, but right now they aren't as far off using a filter as some people in this thread are trying to make it out to be. It's kind of like ray tracing. It's cool and is the future, but this last set of cards didn't get a huge benefit from it. Going forward it WILL be used more so AMD has to bring their implementation. I think DLSS will be similar, just not sure if it will make much of a difference in this coming generation or if next generation is when it'll start to matter. Seems like it may start mattering somewhere in between, but I'm not a future teller.
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
Not close? That's subjective I guess as different reviewers found different conclusions:
" One interesting difference is THG and Ars award different winners in terms of overall image quality. When describing AMD’s FidelityFX, THG writes: “[T]he sharpening and upscaling causes some visible shimmer. It’s not terrible, and it’s a way to boost framerates that some people will undoubtedly appreciate, but the effect was certainly noticeable when moving around.” Here’s Ars: “FidelityFX CAS preserves a slight bit more detail in the game’s particle and rain systems, which ranges from a shoulder-shrug of, ‘yeah, AMD is a little better’ most of the time to a head-nod of, ‘okay, AMD wins this round’ in rare moments.” Ars takes note of several places where DLSS still struggles with rendering, where AMD FidelityFX renders things perfectly. "
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...k60-with-dlss-2-0-fidelityfx-on-midrange-gpus
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...of-death-stranding-is-the-definitive-version/


As you can see, Ars Technica came to the conclusion that Fidelity FX looked better, while Tomshardware Guide concluded DLSS looked better. I don't trust Toms to much (but other sites came to the same conclusion as well), but I would say given the mixed reviews that I would still consider it close with the edge going to DLSS (I said edge, not blowout).

DSO Gaming came to the conclusion DLSS is slightly better (not significantly) again point to yes, they are close.
"All in all, DLSS 2.0 is slightly better than both Native 4K and FidelityFX Upscaling." & "there is more aliasing with FidelityFX Upscaling than in both Native 4K and DLSS 2.0. On the other hand, DLSS 2.0 can eliminate more jaggies, but also introduces some visual artifacts."
https://www.dsogaming.com/screensho...ative-4k-vs-fidelityfx-upscaling-vs-dlss-2-0/

Going by the screenshots released by nvidia, it does make DLSS look good, but they aren't going to give you screen shots that put it in a bad light. Also, if you're playing a game and zooming in on an eyebrow just to prove your IQ is better in game... you're doing it wrong. That said, I think image reconstruction techniques are going to be critical going forward, especially as 5k and then 8k monitors start coming on scene. AMD will for sure have to come up with something, but right now they aren't as far off using a filter as some people in this thread are trying to make it out to be. It's kind of like ray tracing. It's cool and is the future, but this last set of cards didn't get a huge benefit from it. Going forward it WILL be used more so AMD has to bring their implementation. I think DLSS will be similar, just not sure if it will make much of a difference in this coming generation or if next generation is when it'll start to matter. Seems like it may start mattering somewhere in between, but I'm not a future teller.
I like how you conveniently ignore Digitial Foundry, which has been doing extensive detailed graphics comparison for years, and are quite well respected for it.

The bottom line is that DLSS is an image reconstruction technique, it can actually reconstruct higher resolutions, and convincingly does, according to Digital Foundry, DLSS quality mode is on the whole, superior to Native Resolution plus TAA.

CAS is not image reconstruction. It can't reconstruct higher resolution images. It is simply low resolution scaled higher, with a sharpen filter applied. This is unarguably worse than native.
 

Factum

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Messages
2,318
I like how you conveniently ignore Digitial Foundry, which has been doing extensive detailed graphics comparison for years, and are quite well respected for it.

The bottom line is that DLSS is an image reconstruction technique, it can actually reconstruct higher resolutions, and convincingly does, according to Digital Foundry, DLSS quality mode is on the whole, superior to Native Resolution plus TAA.

CAS is not image reconstruction. It can't reconstruct higher resolution images. It is simply low resolution scaled higher, with a sharpen filter applied. This is unarguably worse than native.
The bias is strong with him ;)
That was why I was iffy about those reviews and waited for DF's review....so many "reviewers" posting crap articles that are easily debunked, making it very easyto dismiss posts full of FUD fueled by fanboyism.
Anyone trying to tell you that FFX= DLSS 2.0 is full of shite and should be ignored at this point of time.
They are either stunningly ignorant...or scary dishonest...neither is worth my time ;)
 

Factum

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Messages
2,318
I've tried both DLSS and FFX in multiple games. There is no question that DLSS is leaps and bounds better.

You can play Control in 540P DLSS and it's playabe. FFX looks poor at even 720P.
And DF's review backs up your claim with nice video documentation...something that is very lacking from the other "reviews" mentioned here.

DLSS(2.0) seems to have sacred certain types to go into full FUD mode ;)
 

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
The bias is strong with him ;)
That was why I was iffy about those reviews and waited for DF's review....so many "reviewers" posting crap articles that are easily debunked, making it very easyto dismiss posts full of FUD fueled by fanboyism.
Anyone trying to tell you that FFX= DLSS 2.0 is full of shite and should be ignored at this point of time.
They are either stunningly ignorant...or scary dishonest...neither is worth my time ;)
People getting excited about a sharpen filter, is giving me flashback to the 1990's digital camera forums (shout out to DP Review). In those days digital cameras were very low resolution, and people used to sharpen the hell out of their photos, and there would be long nauseating threads about the best sharpening algorithms. People even sold programs that did nothing but apply some new Wonder Upsize/Sharpening algorithm. In reality the results were all bullshit, that were thankfully mostly left in the past when we moved to higher resolution cameras.

So when people claim "Low Resolution plus sharpening = higher resolution" it really makes me wonder WTF they are thinking, and why are we regressing like this.

Don't they know they can sharpen the higher resolution as well? Then we are right back where we started from. Higher resolution is always better, and native that much more so on an LCD.

Sure it's good idea to have resolution scaling for when your GPU can't handle native resolution, but it' is not some kind of startling new technology to run at lower resolution and sharpen it. It's a crutch to get buy with... Better than nothing I guess.

I am not for one team. I always want a more level and competitive market. Without AMD coming up with some kind of actual reconstruction technique, it gets a lot harder to keep my options open.

So I am hoping AMD is actually working on an actual reconstruction technique, like packaging up Checkerboard Rendering, similar to the way DLSS 2.0 is packaged for developers. Then developers could plug the inputs into both easily. This is completely doable, and would bring a real DLSS competitor to the table.

Pretending that CAS is the solution, does a disservice to everyone.
 

Factum

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Messages
2,318
Like I said...DLSS(2.0) has a certain crowd scared into FUD mode...expect it to get a lot worse.
 

Auer

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,840
Lets not get this thread locked please, there's room in here for everyone and no need to get offensive with the fanboi name calling bullshit.

Misinformation and rumors will get sorted eventually. That's life.
 

cybereality

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
5,915
FFX is more than CAS. They are doing an upscaling technique that is better than bicubic.

At least it seems that way, in the options is says "Fidelity FX Upscaling and Sharpening".

No idea what that means exactly, but the result is better than simply adjusting render scale and using RIS in unsupported games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

Snowdog

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
10,749
FFX is more than CAS. They are doing an upscaling technique that is better than bicubic.
Having digital camera era deja vu, I'd bet they are not. Bicubic remains a top quality resize algorithm to this day, which is why it remains as the top option in Photoshop to this day.

Most other supposedly better resize techniques basically work on resizing and applying some level of sharpening at the same time. So the image comes out with more pop. IMO this is like selling TVs with some baked in sharpening you can't disable. It impresses the rubes, but the purests will murder you because this is NOT the best solution and you are stuck with it.

It's also nothing you couldn't match with bicubic and sharpen after. This tends to be the better option, since you can then tune the sharpness to the subject matter.

And since they are letting you adjust the sharpness with a slider here, that indicates it most likely is bicubic and post sharpening.

The big thing we get out a scaling factor built into games, is they apply the scaling first to get you to Native, Sharpen only the scaled image, then finally apply the HUD/UI at native resolution without artifacts from scaling or sharpening.
 
Top