More DLSS...

noko

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DLSS games you can play right now:
  • Death Stranding
  • Final Fantasy XV
  • Anthem
  • Battlefield V
  • Monster Hunter: World
  • Shadow of the Tomb Raider
  • Metro Exodus
  • Control
  • Deliver Us The Moon
  • Wolfenstein Youngblood
  • Bright Memory
  • Mechwarrior V: Mercenaries
DLSS games on the way:
  • Cyberpunk 2077
  • Atomic Heart
  • Watch Dogs: Legion
  • Justice
  • JX3
  • Serious Sam 4: Planet Badass
  • Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2
  • Amid Evil
  • Stormdivers
  • The Forge Arena
  • We Happy Few
  • Kinetik
  • Outpost Zero
  • Overkill’s The Walking Dead
  • PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds
  • Remnant from the Ashes
  • Scum
  • Darksiders III
  • Dauntless
  • Fear the Wolves
  • Fractured Lands
  • Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice
  • Hitman 2
  • Islands of Nyne: Battle Royale
  • ARK: Survival Evolved

I would assume the updated and new games will be DLSS 2. I like the growing rate of games. Plus as developers get use to putting in the extra code to make it work, basically anything that uses TAA, the more easier and just automatically added it should be. Seeing older games getting an update is also a very positive sign. Anyone with a 2060 and above gets a nice speed bump option with those games.
 

chameleoneel

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They need to let you do DLSS without the scaling, so that you can still get the AA.

A great example would be someone using a 240hz 1080p monitor. The AA from DLSS would clear up the image significantly. But they probably wouldn't need the upscaling feature.

But it need not be for 240hz only. Anyone who wants to skip the upscaling, should still be able to get the AA.

So essentially, we need an AI reconstruction AA method for native, without upscaling.
 

socK

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They need to let you do DLSS without the scaling, so that you can still get the AA.

A great example would be someone using a 240hz 1080p monitor. The AA from DLSS would clear up the image significantly. But they probably wouldn't need the upscaling feature.

But it need not be for 240hz only. Anyone who wants to skip the upscaling, should still be able to get the AA.

So essentially, we need an AI reconstruction AA method for native, without upscaling.

I think there was originally? I swear I remember this being a thing - it was supposed to be like the equivalent of 64x AA and extremely high quality. Not sure if any games ever actually used this mode.

Not sure if it basically tried to reconstruct your resolution into something ludicrously high then scale it back down or just somehow fudge your final image into what it thought would match 64x SSAA. It was like bizarro supersampling.

Guess the quality and performance gain of its current incarnation is just too good for it to be useful. It's pretty hard to argue with sometimes better than native resolution quality at hugely increased performance on top.
 
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Snowdog

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Decima Engine games are said to have the best checkerboard rendering, so I was really looking forward to this video comparing Death Stranding checkerboard vs DLSS.

To spoil it, it's no contest. DLSS 2.0 Quality mode is MUCH better especially in motion. DLSS is a game changer. Though there is some unique artifacts, particle trails.

AMD has it's work cut out coming up with a competing technology.
 
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Snowdog

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The takeaway paragraph from the above:
Comparisons between the two techniques are fascinating but the big takeaway is that DLSS image reconstruction from 1440p looks cleaner overall than native resolution rendering. We've reached the point where upscaling is quantifiably cleaner and more detailed - which sounds absurd, but there is an explanation. DLSS replaces temporal anti-aliasing, where all flavours of TAA exhibit softening or ghosting artefacts that Nvidia's AI upscaling has somehow managed to mostly eliminate. And this poses an interesting question: why render at native resolution at all, if image reconstruction is better and cheaper? And what are the applications for next-gen
 

Auer

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Eurogamer/DigitalFoundry deserves all the clicks they can get for this, excellent article.
 

Marees

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A new Sony patent suggests that a technique similar to Nvidia’s DLSS sampling could be used on PS5 games to improve the resolution of games using AI learning.

The patent, which was spotted by a Reddit user, describes the technique as the following:

An information processing device for acquiring a plurality of reference images obtained by imaging an object that is to be reproduced, acquiring a plurality of converted images obtained by enlarging or shrinking each of the plurality of reference images, executing machine learning using a plurality of images to be learned, as teaching data, that include the plurality of converted images, and generating pre-learned data that is used for generating a reproduction image that represents the appearance of the object.

https://www.psu.com/news/sony-paten...ampling-technique-could-be-used-on-ps5-games/
 

IdiotInCharge

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The takeaway paragraph from the above:
In looking at Nvidia's work with DLSS in terms of released functionality, it looks like they're targeting the low-hanging fruit first, for now. I expect them to propagate DLSS throughout potential product stack targets, including say their Tegra line.

Many of us would love to simply have it as an option to provide the best image quality at whatever target resolution, and I'm sure Nintendo would love to have it in their next mobile release :)
 

Snowdog

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In looking at Nvidia's work with DLSS in terms of released functionality, it looks like they're targeting the low-hanging fruit first, for now. I expect them to propagate DLSS throughout potential product stack targets, including say their Tegra line.

Many of us would love to simply have it as an option to provide the best image quality at whatever target resolution, and I'm sure Nintendo would love to have it in their next mobile release :)


Tegra has ZERO tensor cores. You can't do it on a 1660Ti which has multiple times the standard GPU performance of Tegra.
 

whateverer

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Tegra has ZERO tensor cores. You can't do it on a 1660Ti which has multiple times the standard GPU performance of Tegra.


No, Tegra Xavier devices are based off Volta and include Tensors for compute, so theoretically they could port DLSS 2 to the chip.

You get 64 Tensor cores in the fully-enabled chip, which could (theoretically) handle DLSS for something like a Switch Pro

The new Orin is moving to 7nm and Ampere.

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2020/05/14/drive-platform-nvidia-ampere-architecture/
 
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Mchart

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Seems like an easy way to get 4k support for the Switch Pro whenever that is released.
 

whateverer

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Seems like an easy way to get 4k support for the Switch Pro whenever that is released.


Yeah, that would be nice for docked mode...as well as 1080p on the portable :D

It also has double the shaders of the current switch, so if you do a 7nm die shrink of Xavier, they could give you up-to double the current switch performance. The only unknown there is the Denver 2 cores (but they wouldn't have replaced the A57 with them if they weren't more efficient.)
 
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Snowdog

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No, Tegra Xavier devices are based off Volta and include Tensors for compute, so theoretically they could port DLSS 2 to the chip.

You get 64 Tensor cores in the fully-enabled chip, which could (theoretically) handle DLSS for something like a Switch Pro

The new Orin is moving to 7nm and Ampere.

https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2020/05/14/drive-platform-nvidia-ampere-architecture/

Apples and Oranges.

Those aren't the same chips that go in the Switch, or Shield TV.

The mobile Tegra for consumers has no AI cores and a weak GPU.
 

whateverer

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Apples and Oranges.

Those aren't the same chips that go in the Switch, or Shield TV.

The mobile Tegra for consumers has no AI cores and a weak GPU.


The GPU in Switch has the same 256 shaders the Shield does. The only parts Switch is missing are dedicated camera cores.

Now that Nvidia is shipping Tensors in their consumer hardware,. would you really expect them to cut it out of a future Switch upgrade?

DLSS is the best thing to happen to low-end GPUs, bar-none
 

Snowdog

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The GPU in Switch has the same 256 shaders the Shield does. The only parts Switch is missing are dedicated camera cores.

Never said it wasn't. I said the Shield and Switch don't get Xaivier.

They get the crappy old Maxwell GPU based, X1.

There are NEVER going to put Xavior in Switch/Shield.

Now that Nvidia is shipping Tensors in their consumer hardware,. would you really expect them to cut it out of a future Switch upgrade?

You mean, just like they cut it out of 1600 series Turing GPUs? Sure, why not?

Shield/Switch X1 has ~2 Billion Transistors. Mobile parts needs to stay small and cheap.

GTX 1660 Ti has 6.6 Billion Transistors and they still didn't include Tensor cores, and it's the same Turing family and came out after the RTX Turing cards with Tensor Cores.

RTX 2060 was the smallest chip to get Tensor cores, and it's a 10.8 Billion Transistor monster.
 

Marees

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Never said it wasn't. I said the Shield and Switch don't get Xaivier.

They get the crappy old Maxwell GPU based, X1.

There are NEVER going to put Xavior in Switch/Shield.



You mean, just like they cut it out of 1600 series Turing GPUs? Sure, why not?

Shield/Switch X1 has ~2 Billion Transistors. Mobile parts needs to stay small and cheap.

GTX 1660 Ti has 6.6 Billion Transistors and they still didn't include Tensor cores, and it's the same Turing family and came out after the RTX Turing cards with Tensor Cores.

RTX 2060 was the smallest chip to get Tensor cores, and it's a 10.8 Billion Transistor monster.

I feel it is a matter of time before we get a Shield with DLSS

Low power versions of Xavier exist already.
It is just a matter of waiting for the price to come down

https://hardforum.com/threads/ninte...e-performance-improve.1992163/post-1044497558

Did you see this
Apparently there is a Xavier NX. Is this different from the 10w mode?

There is a new cut down version of the chip due out in March of this year, curiously titled Xavier NX (NX having been the codename for the Switch).

It has a reduced number of CPU (6 from 8) and GPU (384 from 512) cores, reduced bus width (128 from 256bits) and lower power consumption more in line with Nvidia's mobile focussed Tegra X1

Jetson Xavier NX delivers up to 21 TOPS for running modern AI workloads, consumes as little as 10 watts of power, and has a compact form factor smaller than a credit card


https://developer.nvidia.com/embedded/jetson-xavier-nx
Via Euro Gamer

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...ame-changer-for-next-gen-switch?page=comments
View attachment 223504
 

Stoly

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They need to let you do DLSS without the scaling, so that you can still get the AA.

A great example would be someone using a 240hz 1080p monitor. The AA from DLSS would clear up the image significantly. But they probably wouldn't need the upscaling feature.

But it need not be for 240hz only. Anyone who wants to skip the upscaling, should still be able to get the AA.

So essentially, we need an AI reconstruction AA method for native, without upscaling.
And loose the performance advantage and apparently little image quality gains.

I was also thinking on that alternative when I saw that DLSS basically blurred everything, and normal upscaling + sharpenning filter gave better results. But looking at DLSS2.0 I don't really see that's the case anymore. DLSS 2.0 is really good and I hope the rumored upcoming DLSS3.0 will be even better.

BTW, what happeded to DLSS 2x?
 

Snowdog

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And loose the performance advantage and apparently little image quality gains.

I was also thinking on that alternative when I saw that DLSS basically blurred everything, and normal upscaling + sharpenning filter gave better results. But looking at DLSS2.0 I don't really see that's the case anymore. DLSS 2.0 is really good and I hope the rumored upcoming DLSS3.0 will be even better.

BTW, what happeded to DLSS 2x?

Plans change. Instead of 2x we got 2.0 with variable quality levels.

We already essentially have better than native quality, which was kind of the goal of 2x.
 

cybereality

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Right, 2x is not really needed, the quality mode is great. Both enhances image and gives better performance.

Though I wonder if you can use it with DSR. I haven't tried it, but maybe it works.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Though I wonder if you can use it with DSR. I haven't tried it, but maybe it works.
That's basically it; if I can get 'better than native' and let's say that I have performance to spare, why not enable it for that purpose too, as opposed to running TAA?
 

cybereality

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I could not get DSR to work right in Control. It only allowed me to select up to my native res.

I did try setting the desktop to 7K resolution (4x native) and that allowed me to set that in Control on windowed mode.

However, then it locked out the render scale choice (and DLSS was set to the normal resolution when using 1440p).

I clicked around a few times and finally got the option to set DLSS to 3440x1440 with my window res of 7K.

However, I was getting literally 0 fps (maybe 1 frame every 3 seconds). And it was a blurry mess, the motion blur was not designed for such low fps.

It did look pretty nice on a still image, though, but obviously unusable.
 

chameleoneel

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I don't think DSR reports to your monitor as a higher resolution than native. But I'm not sure.

If your monitor accepts input resolutions higher than native, the driver control panel has a 5 tap scaling option. Which is better quality than the standard GPU scaling. Which should still report as a higher input resolution. And I think DSR must be off, for that to work. Might need to do some reading about it...
 

cybereality

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DSR happens on the GPU. The game thinks it's rendering at 4K (for example, on a 1080p panel), GPU downscales 4K to 1080p, and transmits a 1080p image over the wire.

This works fine in Windows, you can select the higher res and everything basically works (aside from it being a little blurry). You have to do this on some games that only go up to what Windows is set as.
 

Flogger23m

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Decima Engine games are said to have the best checkerboard rendering, so I was really looking forward to this video comparing Death Stranding checkerboard vs DLSS.

To spoil it, it's no contest. DLSS 2.0 Quality mode is MUCH better especially in motion. DLSS is a game changer. Though there is some unique artifacts, particle trails.

AMD has it's work cut out coming up with a competing technology.

Yeah this certainly is interesting technology. It would have been interesting if it was standard in consoles, would also help drive the tech and adoption on PC. Yes there are some downsides (there seems to be a bit of a white outline thing going on, check the Control video Digital Foundry did) but overall, probably better than the other tricks consoles tend to use. And consoles have to use all kinds of scaling and the like to balance frame rates/image quality as is. Can't help but think this would've been revolutionary for consoles. Would likely spell the end of the 30-40 frame rate status quo on consoles.
 

Factum

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DLSS 2.0 is not free, it has a cost:
EdIGkdeXgAIr01k.png


The RTX 2060 is close to the "border", less capable hardware can forgoet about running DLSS 2.0.

That should end that tagent.
 

Mchart

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That’s not much “cost” when we’re talking about doubling the frame rate with free AA.
 

socK

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DLSS 2.0 is not free, it has a cost:


The RTX 2060 is close to the "border", less capable hardware can forgoet about running DLSS 2.0.

That should end that tagent.

That's really cheap, even the shittiest card is doing it in 2.5ms at 4K - at which point you're then potentially near halving your overall frame time.

It's like you enabling something and you go from 60 fps to 52 fps... except you then wind up at 90 fps.
 

chameleoneel

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Decima Engine games are said to have the best checkerboard rendering, so I was really looking forward to this video comparing Death Stranding checkerboard vs DLSS.

Actually, according to the DF video, Death Stranding does not use PS4 Pro's hardware accelerated features for checkerboarding. But they didn't make a distinction on whether that resulted in better or worse quality for Death Stranding's method.
 

euskalzabe

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Actually, according to the DF video, Death Stranding does not use PS4 Pro's hardware accelerated features for checkerboarding. But they didn't make a distinction on whether that resulted in better or worse quality for Death Stranding's method.

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone said DS was using the PS4's checkerboard hardware. PS4 has a preferred way to checkerboard, but the Decima engine does its own thing. Despite this, it's regarded as producing better results that other methods. It would be nice to know how it compares to the PS4 hardware's results, but I'm afraid we never will - devs are never going to do double the work for no reason, just choose the best resulting option.
 

Snowdog

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Actually, according to the DF video, Death Stranding does not use PS4 Pro's hardware accelerated features for checkerboarding. But they didn't make a distinction on whether that resulted in better or worse quality for Death Stranding's method.

From DF article that largely duplicates the video:
Death Stranding is an interesting example. On PS4 Pro, it features one of the best checkerboarding implementations we've seen.
...
Checkerboard rendering as found in Death Stranding is non-standard and it's the result of months of intensive work by Guerrilla Games during the production of Horizon Zero Dawn.

It's one of the best they have seen and it's the result of months of work, when they could have just used the Sony Solution. Presumably, they did all that work to do a better job.
 

RamboZombie

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its sad that they got death stranding working with DLSS
but Horizon has got none - this might be an fly in the ointment.. will DLSS support the games i actually want to play?
i tried death stranding - had a couple of ok hours - it's freakin hideo kojima stuff and i dont really get it - but its different from the norm and that makes it refreshing.. imho

Then came Horizon - now this pulls me in . nice game i could really sink my teeth into - but alas - no DLSS and that really suckes
and i really know which of these two i wanted to support DLSS.. and it's not death stranding.

So, nVidia better make DLSS 3.0 easier to implement and present in 85%+ games - if it's supposed to sell all those shiny new 3080's otherwise it''s just unused silicon.

anf here is the list of nice games with DLSS i want to play and am able to enjoy with DLSS right now.

Death stranding (sort of, well mayby, with some weed)?
Wolfenstein:youngblood (well - that sucked and no please)
Deliever us the moon (baahhh)
Control (ok-is did kojima help write the manuscript?

so while DLSS might be the defining feature of the next generation, well it really ain't there yet.. imho
 
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IdiotInCharge

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i tried death stranding - had a couple of ok hours - it's freakin hideo kojima stuff and i dont really get it
Not getting immediately is perhaps part of the point. I don't have access to DLSS, still enjoying it, it's not any wierded than your average sci-fi. Though perhaps that's a compliment compared to most games.
 

noko

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